I Know Arabs and Moslems
December 1st, 2007 at 03:55am Mark Noonan
Heck, I work with two of them - both of them absolutely great men, one from Pakistan the other from the West Bank. Like everyone else, they just want to get on with life. But when we see things like this:
KHARTOUM, Sudan (AP) - Thousands of Sudanese, many armed with clubs and swords and beating drums, burned pictures of a British teacher Friday and demanded her execution for insulting Islam by letting her students name a teddy bear Muhammad.
Sudan’s Islamic government, which has long whipped up anti-Western, Muslim hard-line sentiment at home, was balancing between fueling outrage over the case of Gillian Gibbons and containing it.
The government does not want to seriously damage ties with Britain, but the show of anger underlines its stance that Sudanese oppose Western interference, lawyers and political foes said. The uproar comes as the U.N. is accusing Sudan of dragging its feet on the deployment of peacekeepers in the war-torn Darfur region.
Many in the protesting crowd shouted “Kill her! Kill her by firing squad!”
It gets very hard to avoid feelings of contempt for Islam and hatred for the people who adhere to it. What are we to do with people who won’t bat an eye at the desecration of a Jewish of Christian holy place, but demand death because a teddy bear was given the same name as the founder of Islam? What do we do?
Well, I can’t decide that for anyone other than myself. I’m going to love them and pray for them - but I’ll also issue a bit of advice. My Molsem brothers and sisters - you have to stop this, and stop it right now. You keep this up (and failure to loudly condemn it is nearly as bad as actually supporting it), and you will eventually provoke that much-feared clash of civilizations.
Entry Filed under: Foreign Affairs, Religion, War on Terror
72 Comments
1. Casper | December 1st, 2007 at 5:43 am
The thing to remember is that this is only one government and one of the most dysfunctional ones in the world at that. I think it has more to do with all of the international pressure Sudan is getting than a teddy bear.
2. Brian Gregory | December 1st, 2007 at 6:54 am
They make it hard for us not to feel a little uncomfortable with their religion. Extremism dominates that entire region, and it certainly doesn’t rub off well on us.
3. js | December 1st, 2007 at 7:18 am
This isnt isolated to Sudan. If it were, it would pass and be forgotten. But it wont.
This has benn going on for hundreds of years. Its called Sharia, or, Islamic Law, and its based in the koran, the Haddith, and emulate the teachings of Mohammads life, a 6th century war lord turned prophet.
The strange thing is that they tell us all about peace and love, yet, the koran itself tells them its for muslims only, that they should fight the infidels (non muslims) until they are utterly destroyed or submit/convert to Islam.
Like Arafat, who would say one thing in English, and then go home and say exactly the opposite, so is the Koran. They consider non Islamic nations to be in the “House of War” (Dar ul’Harb) and Islamic nations to be the “House of Submission” (Dar ul’Islam). Those in the house of war have commited an offense against God and Islam by declining to convert to Islam, so effectively, any action they take is defensive in nature. This is by definition the way things work according to Mohammad.
Its not that we desire peace in the world, because if it were possible to be brought about, we would do it. Whats its about is a fundamental flaw in the very core of Islam, its in the koran. These things are not radical islam, they are orthodox beliefs, the right translation of the Koran and the Haddith, its about what Mohammad did, that muslims believe is worthy of emulation, so they will continue to emulate a 6th century warlord until they are utterly destroyed as a peoples, or they conquer the world and eliminate every other religion on earth.
4. Dittohead4Life | December 1st, 2007 at 8:19 am
This has benn going on for hundreds of years. Its called Sharia, or, Islamic Law, and its based in the koran, the Haddith, and emulate the teachings of Mohammads life, a 6th century war lord turned prophet.
Well stated, js–are you sure you’re not “Freedom1?”
This latest crap over the naming of a teddy bear? And they want the teacher executed? Where’s the outrage, the condemnation, in the so-called “moderate Muslim” community?
I think the next two dogs I get are going to be named Alliah and Moohammit…
5. Dittohead4Life | December 1st, 2007 at 8:23 am
The thing to remember is that this is only one government
As usual, Casper, you miss the big picture. Crap like this happens throughout the Muslim world. How ’bout the rape victim in Saudi Arabia, who got locked up for associating with a man she wasn’t married to? There are other examples, too, and all you nutjobs can do is make excuses for these pigs.
btw, have you changed parties yet. According to the National Review, 2008 looks like a good year for the Donkaroaches. Jump on the bandwagon, teach…
6. Dittohead4Life | December 1st, 2007 at 8:27 am
Mr. Noonan, what in the world are you doing up at 3:55am? Is this EST? Still, what are you doing up at 1:55am? Just because some of us avid bloggers keep late hours, doesn’t mean you have to stay up all night too.
Just kidding, bro–great blog so far, even with the lemming puke trolls.
What do you think of that National Review piece about the 2008 election? Are we heading back to the old times of Donkaroach rule?
7. Gozer the Carpathian | December 1st, 2007 at 10:04 am
I agree, this isn’t the only “Crazy Muslim” thing going on in the world. All one has to do is open their eyes and see all the examples of how the “Extreme” Muslims seem to be the nice ones we know and not the normal Muslims.
I’m sorry, I can’t consider any religion a peaceful one that doesn’t treat women equally or with respect.
8. Casper | December 1st, 2007 at 10:12 am
Dittohead4Life,
I’m not making excuses for anyone.
As usual you missed the point I was trying to make. That this is the work of extremists pushed by a government that is trying to deflect worldwide opinion.
As for Saudia Arabia, I’ve considered the rulers of “that country wackedout weirdos for some time.
The problem is, that there are a couple of million Muslim extremists worldwide out of over a billion believers. The extremists are the ones that get all the notice.
btw, have you changed parties yet. According to the National Review, 2008 looks like a good year for the Donkaroaches. Jump on the bandwagon, teach…”
The only bandwagon I’ve jumped on in the last 20 years was the Colorado Rockies this year (I’ve been a big fan for 49 days). You saw how quickly the wheels came off that one. I’m pretty disgusted with both parties right now, as they both seem to be controlled by extremists, so I will probably go Independent until either one of the parties changes or a strong third party comes together. The nice thing about the middle is you can criticize the scum sucking leaders of one party without having to defend the scum sucking leaders of the other party.
9. Aaron | December 1st, 2007 at 11:55 am
“What are we to do with people who won’t bat an eye at the desecration of a Jewish of Christian holy place, but demand death because a teddy bear was given the same name as the founder of Islam?”
Actually, Islam teaches that Judaism and Christianity are to be revered and respected. Islam holds many of the holy texts of Judaism and Christianity to be sacred. It is strictly forbidden to desecrate Jewish and Christian holy places.
Do you have examples of Islam “not batting an eye at the desecration of a Jewish of Christian holy place“? Jewish sites were ransacked after the Muslims re-captured Jerusalem following the establishment of Israel - but I don’t know that outside of this episode, Muslims have engaged in the systematic desecration of Christian and Jewish Holy places at the bat of an eye. (it should be noted that Muslims have leveled similar charges of Israelis desecrating Islamic Holy sites in Jerusalem as well).
And no, Ahmadinejad calling for the destruction of Israel is not an example - the Muslim world’s issues with Israel are not about Judaism. They are about the displacement of Muslims because of the establishment of a religious state in Israel (proving once again that establishing a state religion - whether it be in Israel, Iran, or the US - is a very bad idea!).
If you want to accuse Muslims of being anti-Jewish, please be reminded that throughout even recent history, it has been Christians who have engaged in widespread persecution, hate, and humiliation, and genocide towards Jews - not Muslims. Islam did not put 6 million Jews to death during the holocaust - that was the work of Christians. And it was the Romans who destroyed Jerusalem and Judaism’s holiest sites.
For all of his bluster against the state of Israel, the highest minority of Jews in the Middle East (after Israel itself) resides in… Iran. There are 3 synagogues in Tehran, and nobody has touched them.
I share your disdain for Muslim fanatics who are so damn touchy about their religion. This melodramatic sensitivity is something I disdain in my Christian compatriots as well. But for every incident of Muslims acting barbaric in places like Sudan, I can show you Christian groups in Africa who were equally horrific and violent against other religions. A Christian cult sect in southern Sudan and Uganda called the “Lord’s Resistance Army” has engaged in widespread human rights violations, including mutilation, torture, rape, the abduction of civilians, the use of child soldiers and a number of massacres. Fleeing LRA terror, some 1.2 million people have been displaced.
In bringing up the Lord’s Resistance Army, and other Christian-inspired groups who commit atrocities, you might say that I’m being unfair in cherry-picking odd, isolated, cult-like cases that are in no way representative of Christianity in general. Well, good point - but you can also apply that very same reasoning to the cases you post on this site of Muslims engaging in barbaric acts in Sudan.
In any case, I not a follower of Islam, and I certainly am not in any way justifying the idiots who want to have a teacher killed for naming a teddy bear Muhammad. But I do get a chuckle when seeing Christians who hold themselves far more morally superior than Muslims. Because the fact is that Christianity and Christians have committed throughout history far more acts of barbarism.
Again, it wasn’t Muslims who killed 6 million Jews. That was done by Christians in a Christian nation.
10. FmrMarine | December 1st, 2007 at 1:34 pm
Hitler was a Christian?
Stalin was a Christian?
these were Christian nations?
by WHOSE standards?
BUT clearly these actions are in trus isalmic nations,
just because one may know 1 or 2 people out of their natural elements, and they are “nice” does not let the whole of islam of the hook for their barbarity.
11. Aaron | December 1st, 2007 at 2:18 pm
Frm Marine -
No one is “letting Islam off the hook for their barbarity”.
Truth be told, throughout history, religions and religious people have engaged in barbarism, whatever the religion. This is especially true when the State is mixed with an official religion. As soon as a religion takes control of a government, watch out - be that religion Christian or Muslim.
Just look through the annals of history, right up to the present day. In most countries in history where the State and religion are closely intertwined, that State has engaged in barbarous acts. Look at Rome after Christianity was adopted as the official state religion: state acts of intolerance and repression actually went up. Look at Europe when religion ruled the continent: there were the Dark Ages and the Inquisition and genocide against the native peoples of the Americas. Look at Saudi Arabia or Iran, each run by religious fundamentalists and each engaging in human rights abuses.
And yes, Germany was and is a predominantly Christian nation. Germany was the seat of the Holy Roman Empire, and the birthplace of the Reformation. The Nazis regularly brandished Christian symbolism and attempted to define a brand of Christianity as the State religion. Religious leaders throughout the country almost without exception allied themselves with Hitler - there are many photos of bishops throughout the country enthusiastically giving the Nazi salute. Nazi military uniforms sported the words “Gott Mit Uns” - “God is with Us”. The German people in the 1930’s were in fact almost all practicing Christians, and in fact mostly supported Hitler and the Nazis. Many Nazis who engaged in atrocities or worked at death camps also went to church on Sundays, and most would have considered themselves good Christians. And following WWII, the Catholic church aided the escape of some prominent Nazis wanted for crimes against humanity. What little resistance to the Nazis there was under the Third Reich, came almost entirely from academics and non-believers, and not from religious leaders.
You can argue that it was not Christianity itself that led to Nazism and the barbarism of Nazi Germany. But certainly Germany was a predominantly Christian nation, and the perpetrators of Nazi barbarism by and large considered themselves good Christians. If Germany had been a Muslim nation, you have have gleefully taken that as a sure sign that Islam is the most savage evil ever.
12. liberalT | December 1st, 2007 at 2:25 pm
Hitler was born an raised a Christian and he considered himself a Christian. Indeed he often (mis) used it as a reason to for his actions:
“As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice”.
Now did he actually act like a Christian ? No - obviously and profoundly not. None the less - he was raised a Christian and thought of himself that way although obviously in some demented and twisted way.
He also believed that his ‘German Christian Heritage” was a primary pillar in the formation of the third Reich.
Stalin was born and raised a Christian in the Eastern Orthodox Church. In fact - he even went to seminary school.
Look - obviously neither Stalin nor Hitler were good Christians - but that was their backgrounds no matter how twisted it eventually became.
In both cases, as with the case of what people refer to as “islamic extremism” , they represent a twisted, flawed, and bizzare interpretation of the faith.
The point they are trying to make is that we should just say we are against any form of religious zealotry that leads to this sort of behavior. The idea that this is some how restricted or more prominent in Islam is just simply demonstrably false. European Christians have been doing horrible things in their own twisted interpretation of Christianity for quite some time as well - and as is pointed out actually more death and destruction have come from people like the Nazi’s, Soviet Purges, Crusades , and imperialism than have from Islam.
So lets just say we are against religious zealotry and the twisting of ideologies to justify horrible actions.
13. Aaron | December 1st, 2007 at 2:38 pm
And I would also add that although Nazism was not solely the product of Christianity, it is certainly true that Christianity was the main progenitor of anti-Semitism in Europe, and formed much of the basis for Nazi hatred towards the Jews. Throughout Christian Europe, Jews were blamed as the ones who murdered Jesus. “Christ Killers” they were called.
Were it not for long-standing Christian hatred towards the Jews in Europe, something which far pre-dated Nazism, the rise of the Nazis might not have been possible. Christianity provided the anti-Semitic foundation fro the rise of the Nazis in Germany.
This is not to say that Islam is not similarly full of hatred. But such hatred is common in all religions. If one compares the long list of barbaric acts committed in the name of Christianity or Islam, it is easy to make the case the Christianity has been the more barbaric of the two.
It is not so much that we have an Islam problem in the world, but rather we have a religious fundamentalism problem. Were religious fundamentalists to take firm control of this country in contravention of the Constitution, you can bet that they would govern with every bit as much repressive zeal as the fundies who now run Tehran and Riyadh.
14. js | December 1st, 2007 at 8:52 pm
I think if Islam was just a religion, we would probably be bigots, but its not.
Islam is a Governing system, a social system, and a totalitarian religion.
Its petty to consider anyone a religious bigot when you have no clue about what they are talking about.
The closest you can get to Islam in any modern government was the USSR, short the religion.
Get to know your enemy. You might not thiink he is your enemy, but he does.
15. liberalT | December 1st, 2007 at 11:56 pm
if the last 5000 years have taught us anything -they have taught us that it is never good to mix religion and politics. As stevocar points out correctly whenever you have that situation you are just asking for trouble. It is even more than that because people don’t even need to bother to gather facts, reason, or look at what causes the problems. They know they are right because their God tells them they are.
And unfortunately - it continues to this day in many parts of the world. But it isn’t just that- after all GB actually said that
God told him that the Iraq war was the right thing to do.
“God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq”
So there you go - thats the real reason that Bush took us to war. Because apparently God told him to. Scary stuff if you think about it - so its not just Christians of the past its real living history
16. Aaron | December 2nd, 2007 at 12:01 am
Stevocar -
Yep - if the evangelicals had their way, they’d run the USA according to their interpretation of the Bible, and you could be sure that once in power, they would exercise the kind of violent authoritarian intolerance that religions have always done when they take control of government. Power corrupts - but it corrupts all the more when coupled with religious certainty. The founders were indeed wise to be wary of religion mixing with the state.
The Christian fundies would love to be able to dictate what we could watch or read, what women could to do or wear, and what our children could learn about biology. And no doubt they would feel totally justified in doing these things - they’d be under the delusion that they were doing God’s will. Time and again we’ve heard from people like judge Roy Moore who say that they “obey a higher law”, casting aside the laws of our country.
In short, the greatest fantasy or the Christian fundies is to be… Iran.
Pretty ironic - no?
Bush and Ahmadinejad: birds of a feather.
17. Mark Noonan | December 2nd, 2007 at 3:22 am
Aaron,
Have you ever read a history book? I’ve never seen a more ignorant statement than yours on the matter of anti-Semitism. I mean, seriously - go read some history and then get back to us.
18. Mark Noonan | December 2nd, 2007 at 3:33 am
LiberalT,
If there’s anything the last 50 years have taught us is that if we stop teaching history, we’ll find people making statements like, “if the last 5000 years have taught us anything -they have taught us that it is never good to mix religion and politics”, as if it (a) meant anything and (b) bore any relationship to the reality of the past.
19. Dittohead4Life | December 2nd, 2007 at 10:43 am
Actually, Islam teaches that Judaism and Christianity are to be revered and respected.
Gee, in which predominently-Muslim nation is it welcomed? Don’t even attempt to bring a Bible into Saudi Arabia, or any other Muslim nation that uses Sharia as its basis for law.
The Christian fundies would love to be able to dictate what we could watch or read, what women could to do or wear, and what our children could learn about biology.
Gee, let’s compare this statement to the philosophy of the religion of leftism:
The progressives would love to be able to dictate what we can watch, read, or listen to on talk radio. They want to dictated what kind of vehicles we can drive, what we can eat, and when and where we can practice our religious faith. And yes, they already dictate what our children can learn about science and history.
Not much difference in the two, huh? I guess I’ll join Casper in the middle…not!
20. phnx | December 2nd, 2007 at 10:56 am
“if the last 5000 years have taught us anything -they have taught us that it is never good to mix religion and politics” secular leftist moron
Gee that idea worked REAL well under communism, where religion was banned:
The deathtolls attributed to communist regimes in the 20th Century were:
65 million in China;
20 million in the Soviet Union;
2 million in North Korea;
2 million in Cambodia;
1.7 million in Africa;
1.5 million in Afghanistan;
1 million in Vietnam;
1 million in the communist states of Eastern Europe
150,000 in Latin America.
Do the math MORON
BTW Nazi Germany the seat of Roman Catholicsim????? Were did you get that factoid?
Finally, slaughter under Islam is in the name of Islam as taught in the Koran and Hadith.
Slaughter in the name of Christ is not condoned in ANY text of the Bible, which is the Holy Scripture to CHRISTIANS. So any such action can only be considered SIN.
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Romans12:19
BTW: I am not suggesting nore would I support a theocracy. However Christianity, according to scriptural teaching exercises a positive influence in society.
21. phnx | December 2nd, 2007 at 12:01 pm
“if the evangelicals had their way, they’d run the USA according to their interpretation of the Bible, and you could be sure that once in power, they would exercise the kind of violent authoritarian intolerance that religions have always done when they take control of government.” erron
When have evangelicals ever had control of a government?
It is somewhat pointless to engage in a discussion of religion with a secularist such as you because, as scripture states:
Natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1Co 2:14
Nevertheless, this paranoia of yours comes from a complete lack knowledge of Christianity and scripture. Unlike Islam, there is no call by Christ to establish a political system here on earth
Christ teaches:
Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s. Mt 22:21
Scripture further commands Christians to obey the law:
Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work. To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men. Tit 3:1,2
Christ further clarifies this by saying:
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. John 18:36
If his followers were not instructed to fight to save him, they are clearly not instructed to fight to impose any of his teachings.
I don’t expect you to understand this. You will no doubt prefer to accept the indoctrination of the stereotypical view of fundementalist christianity, that you have been fed by the leftists media, and your secular teachers, the blind leading the blind.
22. liberalT | December 2nd, 2007 at 12:13 pm
phnx -
sure - there are many other ways that you can have horribly repressive governments. Religious fanaticism is just one of those.
Mark - as always you don’t bother to actually respond to any points that were made here. just the usual “high level” remark - “thats stupid”. glad to know the 2nd grade arguments are back in effect.
Which institute did you do your history studies at? Since you are apparently an expect I would like to know your qualifications
23. FmrMarine | December 2nd, 2007 at 12:41 pm
PHNX
BINGO!!!!!
24. phnx | December 2nd, 2007 at 12:49 pm
sure - there are many other ways that you can have horribly repressive governments. Religious fanaticism is just one of those. Liberal T
What’s your point as it relates to Christianity?
25. Aaron | December 2nd, 2007 at 12:56 pm
Mark -
“Have you ever read a history book? I’ve never seen a more ignorant statement than yours on the matter of anti-Semitism. I mean, seriously - go read some history and then get back to us.”
Are you denying that anti-Semitism has much of its roots in Christian accusations that the Jews were responsible for killing God? This is well established history. If you want references to historic texts, you can start with the Gospel of John, which laid the basic foundation for the early Christian accusations that the Jews played a leading role in condemning Christ to death.
Holocaust historian Tom Macabi writes:
The passages in John that denounce the Jews are well known - I would have thought you’d be familiar with them. At on point, John actually refers to the Jews as “children of the Devil” (8:44).
After the horrors of the Holocaust, many church members have tried to downplay the apparently anti-semitic passages in John. Some church leaders now say that John was expressing hostility towards the Jewish leadership, and not to the Jews themselves. Other church historians say that the gospel of John was merely reflecting anti-Semitic feelings already prevalent during the Jewish-Roman wars and after the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, around the time that John may have been written. This school of thinking says that John is putting words into Jesus’ mouth, and that any anti-Semitism belongs to John alone, and does not reflect Jesus’ or the church’s teachings.
While these may be valid points, the reality is that whatever the real intention of John’s writings, the unfortunate result was widespread condemnation of the Jews among Christian communities throughout Europe.
From the wiki on Anti-Semitism:
This anti-Jewish sentiment continued and expanded during the Middle Ages, and continued up to the 20th century throughout Europe. It had also spread among evangelical communities in the US. The Nazis did not create anti-semitism - they merely used the anti-semitism already long established in Christian Europe as a foundation on which to build their power.
The affinity of various evangelical groups in the US for the modern state of Israel is a more recent phenomena. This is tied to the millenial, apocalyptic groups who see the establishment of Israel as somehow hastening the return of Jesus. Thus, evangelical groups have in modern times become the most vocal supporters of Israel.
Because evangelicals now love Israel, you seem to assume an historical love of Christians for Jews. Nothing could be further from the truth. Mark, you often hold yourself up on this blog as some kind of history expert, but there’s a huge disconnect between what you think you know, and what you actually know. History is more than making misinformed pronouncements about the past based on current assumptions.
26. Aaron | December 2nd, 2007 at 1:12 pm
Ditto4life -
“Gee, in which predominently-Muslim nation is it welcomed? Don’t even attempt to bring a Bible into Saudi Arabia, or any other Muslim nation that uses Sharia as its basis for law.”
Thanks for proving my point that when religions take over government and establish religious law, there is repression and cruel authoritarianism, whatever the religion.
But beyond that, there are significant Christian minorities and many predominantly Muslim countries, including Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, and Senegal. Christians in these countries use the Bible, and have churches where they freely worship. Again, it is states like Saudi Arabia, which are ruled by religion, where there is intolerance. Let that be a lesson against mixing Church and state here in our country.
And I agree with you that we should condemn Saudi Arabia as a religious state. Saudi Arabia is the breeding ground for the most rabid, intolerant and anti-western form of Islam called Wahhabism. Most of the fighters who went to Iraq to join with insurgents fighting US troops came from SA. Almost all of the hijackers who committed the atrocities of 9/11 came from SA. The home country of Osama bin Laden is SA. In few places are extreme interpretations of Sharia the Law of the Land as they are in SA. So my question to you is: why is the US such an ally of SA? Why didn’t we pressure SA, instead of invading secular Iraq, where Christians worshiped freely ?
phnx -
“BTW Nazi Germany the seat of Roman Catholicsim????? Were did you get that factoid?”
Nobody here ever said that. What was said was that Germany was the seat of the Holy Roman Empire. If you are not familiar, go look up Holy Roman Empire in a history text.
27. liberalT | December 2nd, 2007 at 1:21 pm
phnx
my point is simple. Religious texts which were written thousands of years ago are often difficult to interpret. You have people in all religions - Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc.. who can misread or misinterpret them and twist them to their own sick ends. This has happened historically in all cases (the current regime in Iran, Hitler’s bizarre interpretation of Germany’s Christian heritage, etc..) The idea that this is somehow restricted to Islam is just at odds with basic history.
Despite Mark’s one line unsubstantiated claim to the contrary - if you look at the history of the states that were founded as religious states they have been in almost constant conflict. One of the most successful states - the US - is explicitly founded on religious freedom which has helped the US be so successful
Now - perhaps your misunderstanding what I am saying. Surely - I am not advocating an atheist state or a state where religion is not allowed! Nor am I saying that you can’t have a President who is religious.
What I am saying is that history has shown that it is a bad idea for the state to be FOUNDED as a religious state. It just doesn’t work - for all the reasons listed above and for all of the history which has shown it to be true
28. FmrMarine | December 2nd, 2007 at 2:14 pm
“and you will know them by their fruits”
Christianity = hospitals, orphanages, Mother Theresa, forgiveness, morality.
islam = DEATH, murder, mayhem, rioting, bombings, beheadings, terror, beatings, enslavement.
OH i know them well!
29. Aaron | December 2nd, 2007 at 2:24 pm
FrmMarine -
And Christians have not engaged in beheadings, public burnings, repression, forced conversion, terror, torture, enslavement, and genocide? Please, don’t make me publish a list.
And Muslims have never built hospitals, are generally “immoral”, have never been forgiving, have never built orphanages, and have never produced Muslim equivalents of Mother Teresa? Please, don’t make me publish a list.
30. Aaron | December 2nd, 2007 at 2:28 pm
FrmMarine demonstrates the problem with religion, and why it is dangerous for religion to encroach upon the government: the absolute certainty that the practitioners of their religion are completely just and moral, while all others are unjust, immoral, and evil.
Certainty is a very dangerous delusion.
31. FmrMarine | December 2nd, 2007 at 2:29 pm
then move to one of the wonderful muzzi lands and live peacefully amont them.
you seem to hate Christianity so much.
Ill even donate to your airline ticket and see you are fitted for your first explosive vest.
32. FmrMarine | December 2nd, 2007 at 2:33 pm
aaron
NAME one country where in the name of Christianity this happens.
Dont give me in 1200 etc etc
TODAY in the 21st century lets see your list.
33. Aaron | December 2nd, 2007 at 2:36 pm
FmrMarine -
It is you who evidently would be more at home in a religious theocracy like Iran or Saudi Arabia.
Me? I believe religion has no place running our lives, our schools, or our foreign policy. Religion = bigotry, hate, dogma, repression. No thanks.
34. Aaron | December 2nd, 2007 at 2:44 pm
FmrMarine -
“NAME one country where in the name of Christianity this happens.”
I already have. Today in southern Sudan and Uganda, a Christian cult sect called the “Lord’s Resistance Army”, has engaged in widespread human rights violations, including mutilation, torture, rape, the abduction of civilians, the use of child soldiers and a number of massacres. Fleeing LRA terror, some 1.2 million people have been displaced.
There are several other groups in Africa which murder and maim in the name of Christianity.
And as I pointed out earlier, it was a Christian nation called Germany that apparently was unbothered by its Christian conscience in putting 6 million Jews, as well as hundreds of thousands of gays, Muslims, and gypsies, to their deaths. That was only 60 years ago, pal.
35. liberalT | December 2nd, 2007 at 2:46 pm
Case and Point: From Former Marine-
—-
“and you will know them by their fruits”
Christianity = hospitals, orphanages, Mother Theresa, forgiveness, morality.
islam = DEATH, murder, mayhem, rioting, bombings, beheadings, terror, beatings, enslavement.
OH i know them well!
——————————————————————-
its amazing what sort of bigotry is tolerated on this blog. Especially considering if anyone dare make even the smallest slight at Christianity (saying happy holidays instead of Merry Christmas is a “war on Christmas” ). Yet - you can equate islam with death murder, mayhem, bombings, etc…
36. phnx | December 2nd, 2007 at 3:46 pm
I believe religion has no place running our lives, our schools. Erron,
Neither did Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Kim Il Sung or Kim Jong Il. In addition, neither did Hitler, his persecution and mass murder of the Jews was based on his belief in the supperiority of the Aryan Race, and the inferiority of the semitic race, Chrisitanity and economic issues were incidental to this.
Congratulations, you share the opinions of the biggest butchers of the 20th Century.
Its quite obvious that your limited understanding of history is heavily biased by the socialist agenda of your teachers.
37. Aaron | December 2nd, 2007 at 4:04 pm
“Neither did Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Kim Il Sung or Kim Jong Il.”
On the contrary. Stalin, Mao, Kim Jong-Il, etc all established themselves as deities and their ideology as the state religion. No one can deny the quasi-religious undertones associated with the worship of a personality cult. They are all outward manifestations of the same phenomena: superstitious belief in the supernatural status of the leader and his scriptures.
You think the Soviet Union had no religion? On the contrary, Stalinism was the state religion.
And we have already discussed how Hitler used pre-existing Christian anti-Semitism as a foundation for building power.
In all cases, the only way to save ourselves from the delusion of religious faith is to adopt Reason and Humanism over worship of Mao, Mohammed, Jesus, Kim, Jim Jones, David Koresh, …
38. phnx | December 2nd, 2007 at 4:08 pm
“NAME one country where in the name of Christianity this happens.”
I already have. Today in southern Sudan and Uganda, a Christian cult sect called the “Lord’s Resistance Army”, has engaged in widespread human rights violations, including mutilation, torture, rape…Erron
You seem to confuse the definition of fundementalism with fanatacism. As previously pointed out, as nauseum, Christianity considers this type of activity as sin.
You assertion of the Christian link with the Jewish holocaust is equally flawed. Christians who protested against Jewish oppression met the same fate.
Once again, the Koran openly encourages moslems to KILL indfidels, the definition of which includes Jews and Christians. Its not just islamic fanatics who believe this, its a fundemental part part of Islam.
Equating Christianity with Islam shows a complete lack of understanding of both religions.
If you have a college education you should request a refund of your tuition.
39. liberalT | December 2nd, 2007 at 5:04 pm
phnx - that just manifestly untrue. There are plenty of verses in the bible that are equally as horrific about non-believers.
Its just completely untrue that Islam teaches death to all non-believers while the bible preaches only love and tolerance. The problem is that they are both ancient documents written by many different people and edited by even more.
Both the bible and the Koran contain a mixed message about this from love thy neighbor to the vitriol you see bellow.
when discussing non-believers:
” And the LORD said unto Moses, ‘Take all the heads of the people and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.’” (Numbers 25:3-4)
for those who worshiped false idols:
“And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also. And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.” (Numbers 16:32-35)
and some more:
“And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God…” (Deuteronomy 13: 5)
“If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;” (Deuteronomy 13: 6)
“Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.” (Deuteronomy 13:8-9)
“Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.” (Deuteronomy 13:15)
40. Jeremiah | December 2nd, 2007 at 5:45 pm
liberalT,
That was during the time, when there were no governments, no means for justice to be carried out on all those who disobeyed God’s commands, God ruled and spoke to the Nations through the few who were faithful.
When Christ came to earth, He created governments that granted man some authority over those who do wrong. However, in those Old Testament passages that you quote They weren’t punishing the Nations for nothing, no, it was all those that commited sin and crimes and God ordered their punishment.
Thus, God will have the final say!!
The fact is, the primary reason they (Muslims) are constantly fighting against Israel, is because they hate all those who do good. God explains this to us in the book of John, Jesus said, “They hated me, they will also hate you for my sake.”
And too, a larger faction of it is greed for the land of Israel which the Jews own. The Jews own One Half of One Percent of the entire Middle East.
The other 99 1/2 % belongs to the Muslims and Arabs.
Now tell me that the Muslims don’t hate? All because of one little speck of land. Not even a drop in the bucket
They’re bloodthirsty Self-hating,Tyrants!!
Jeremiah
41. liberalT | December 2nd, 2007 at 5:46 pm
so just that we have it on record Mark - you will allow this clearly anti Isamic bigotry to appear on your blog?
42. Mark Noonan | December 2nd, 2007 at 5:54 pm
LiberalT,
Its Jeremiah’s opinion - I think that he should phrase it better and recognise that there are good people who go by the name of Moslem, but the basic facts cannot be denied.
43. liberalT | December 2nd, 2007 at 6:06 pm
so if i said something horrible about Christians you would let me put it here because ‘its my opinion?”
44. Mark Noonan | December 2nd, 2007 at 6:10 pm
Liberal,
Errr…you mean you haven’t seen all the horrible things said about Christians by lefty commenters here every day of the week?
45. liberalT | December 2nd, 2007 at 6:20 pm
no i haven’t. point me to such a horrible thing
46. Mark Noonan | December 2nd, 2007 at 6:30 pm
Liberal,
Well, from this very thread:
47. Jeremiah | December 2nd, 2007 at 6:38 pm
I don’t necessarily want to stereotype, but these are Muslims commiting the sin, Christians don’t do these sorts of things. Islamic factions encompass the globe. Most all Muslims follow the Quran, the teachings by which Muhammad taught Islamic violence. One of his main teachings was, “It is acceptable to lie to Non-Muslims”. So, if you’re a Muslim, then it’s ok for you to lie to those about the true teachings of Islam, which teaches “kill the infidel”. So, what it really amounts to, is deception.
Muhammad, when he resided in Mecca, had no men to build an army, but when he left Mecca and immigrated to Medina, there is where he got his army, and where Quranic revelation taught Jihad. Muhammad declared Jihad, went back to, and conquered Mecca and brought it under his complete authority.
One of the great writers and thinkers of modern Jihad, Mawlana Abul Ala Mawdudi, founder of Pakistan’s fundamentalist movement, clearly states, and these are his words–
Look, the Muslims are human beings, and we can’t blame them there, but the fact of the matter is, is that they are reading some deadly toxic material and listening to a very evil “prophet”, and in their mind they feel that they have the obligation to “Murder”!!!
They can call me infidel if they want…and in that, I praise, and give the Prince of Peace, my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ all the glory!!!
Jeremiah
48. Aaron | December 2nd, 2007 at 6:53 pm
Mark - do you have a response to post 25?
Please, regale us with your immense historical knowledge.
49. Aaron | December 2nd, 2007 at 6:54 pm
guess not
50. liberalT | December 2nd, 2007 at 6:55 pm
but Mark - that IS the stated goal of some of these organizations.
opponents to teaching evolution - or pushing creationist agenda .
trying to ban books ? Trying to enforce moral codes?
These are all EXPLICIT goals of some fundamentalist Christian organizations
Moreover its not Christianity which is being slammed - but rather zealots who use it and twist it to their own goals.
51. Jeremiah | December 2nd, 2007 at 7:03 pm
trying to ban books ? Trying to enforce moral codes?
Yes, we could do without a lot of the filth that is published today, we could use some higher standards, in our Military, Schools, Places of work…Just to name a few.
We could cut down on violence, and crime of all kind if we done this!!!
Liberals are brainwashing our children to grow up to be regular little demons, through video games especially!!!
Jeremiah
52. Mark Noonan | December 2nd, 2007 at 7:22 pm
Aaron,
There’s not much there to respond to - you point out that Christians have been anti-Semitic, and then leap to the absurd conclusion that Christians in a Christian nation committed the Holocaust. This shows an amazing ignorance of history.
53. Mark Noonan | December 2nd, 2007 at 7:26 pm
liberalT,
I know of no Christian group which is trying to ban the teaching of evolution, or is trying to dictate what people read. If you’ve got one, then lets hear about it…and “Christian fundies” presumptively means Evangelical Christians, and whenever you ascribe bad motives to a group like that, you are engaging in bigotry. “Christian fundies” are not a monolithic group. Heck, there are politically liberal “Christian fundies”, you know? Politically liberal Catholics, too…we are united in Christ and while there are some things non-negotiable, there is room for a wide variety of opinion which, if you would bother to learn about Christianity, you’d come to understand.
It has been truthfully said that people don’t hate what Catholicism stands for, but what they THINK it stands for…and this goes a bit for Evangelical Christianity, as well. Find out about us - and that means by actually going to the sources of Evangelical and Catholic thought and hearing what is believed explained by people who believe it. Once you broaden your mind and learn about different people, you might still reject the message, but at least your rejection won’t be based on ignorance.
54. phnx | December 2nd, 2007 at 7:57 pm
“that just manifestly untrue. There are plenty of verses in the bible that are equally as horrific about non-believers.” erron,
So please guide me to just one that is a teaching of CHRIST, you are aware aren’t you that Christians follow the teachings of CHRIST. You will find all that he taught in the New Testament.
I look forward to your reply.
55. phnx | December 2nd, 2007 at 8:32 pm
Its just completely untrue that Islam teaches death to all non-believers ” Liberal T
I’m curious to know why you are so defensive of Islam. Just how would you interpret the following texts?
“Slay them (infidels)wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage. Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God’s religion reigns supreme. But if they desist, fight none except the evil-doers”(2:190–93).
Fighting is obligatory for you - 2:216
But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89
O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54
Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme - 8:39
O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65
It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67
When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5
O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey’s end. - 9:73
They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111
Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers 9:123
When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. 47:4
Muhammad is Allah’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29
Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9
The unbelievers among the People of the Book (Christians and Jews) and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51
“They [the Children of Israel] were consigned to humiliation and wretchedness. They brought the wrath of God upon themselves, and this because they used to deny God’s signs and kill His Prophets unjustly and because they disobeyed and were transgressors” (Sura 2:61). According to the Koran, the Jews try to introduce corruption (5:64), have always been disobedient (5:78), and are enemies of Allah, the Prophet and the angels (2:9798).
BTW: I’m still waiting for the verses where Christ commands his followers to kill.
56. phnx | December 2nd, 2007 at 8:38 pm
“the only way to save ourselves from the delusion of religious faith is to adopt Reason and Humanism” Liberal T
This is exactly what Marx proposed. So what you are saying is Communism is the answer, it just hasn’t been done right. Good luck with that.
57. Mark Noonan | December 2nd, 2007 at 9:13 pm
phnx,
I read recently that part of the inscription on the Dome of the Rock is a specific denial of the Trinity - if true, then that would be unique, I believe; a religion on one of its major holy sites taking the time and space to denounce another faith, rather than proclaim its own.
Islam started as a Christian heresy, and I guess they’ve never got past that…
58. phnx | December 2nd, 2007 at 9:57 pm
Mark,
This isn’t surprising since the Koran refers to Jesus as a prophet, and denies his diety:
All praise is to Allah, who has not taken a son, and who has not a partner in the Kingdom, and who has not a helper to save him from disgrace, and proclaim his greatness magnifying him surah 17:111
However there are a number of times in the Koran when Allah is speaking he speaks in the plural WE, so clearly they are confused.
59. Mark Noonan | December 2nd, 2007 at 10:21 pm
Phnx,
I believe that is the exact quote of what is inscribed, if my source has it right. It would be as if we were to write inside St. Peter’s, “Mohammed Just Made it Up”. Very strange…
60. phnx | December 2nd, 2007 at 10:45 pm
Imagine…God’s chosen prophet, a murderous pedophile.
61. js | December 2nd, 2007 at 11:38 pm
>>>>The passages in John that denounce the Jews are well known - I would have thought you’d be familiar with them. At on point, John actually refers to the Jews as “children of the Devil” (8:44).<<<<
Why do you butcher the truth so badly Aaron.
This passage isnt to the Jews at all, its directed toward a few of the Pharisee and Scribes that were there to try to catch Jesus in a hypocricy. Your taking a verse out of context and trying to make it mean something it doesnt.
Does that make you seem smart or something?
62. js | December 2nd, 2007 at 11:47 pm
Imagine, a prophet that didnt know the truth about something….didnt Moses tell us that we should not fear that prophet, but to take him out and stone him under the old law? Jesus said to brush the dust from our shoes…to ostracize those who practice the false religions from our societies..
Mo said Christians worshipped Jesus, Mary and God. They never did. Mo’s knowledge came from gnostics that lived near his home when he grew up. How do we know? Because the Gnostics were in the same place, its documented. Christians rejected them and thier false beliefs long before Mo was born.
So why would God give Mo wrong information, and totally omit the Holy Spirit? I dont think he did, and I dont think Mo was a prophet, nor that the Koran is scripture. The Koran tells muslims to fight and kill, this is the sin of Cain, the only place the Koran came from was darkness.
(not to mention the fact that there is not one written record from when Mo was alive that alluded to him being a prophet, that kind of thing didnt show up for about a hundred years after Mo died…)
63. Tractatus | December 2nd, 2007 at 11:54 pm
Christians follow the teachings of CHRIST. You will find all that he taught in the New Testament.
Can you cite the part where Jesus hated gays? I mean, seeing as how you Christians are always bleating, “It’s in the Bible!” to justify your anti-gay views and you are claiming that the Old Testament verses about how it’s OK to murder, enslave, and commit all sorts of brutality don’t count, then that one verse in the Old Testament against homosexuality similarly doesn’t count, right?
64. Jeremiah | December 3rd, 2007 at 12:05 am
Tractatus,
The Apostle Paul was a disciple and messenger for Jesus Christ, and here’s what the Lord laid on his heart about gays…
Romans 1:18-32
Jeremiah
65. phnx | December 3rd, 2007 at 12:17 am
Sven,
You wouldn’t know the truth if you tripped over it.
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/
(Ed. Note: Sven is Stevo Carrington is KatLoves2Read is banned)
66. Jeremiah | December 3rd, 2007 at 12:48 am
sven,
Mrs. Katz is entitled to her opinion, but it doesn’t go any farther than that.
I take the Word of God just as it is, and let me tell you, God doesn’t need some far-fetched theologian to to back His Word up. His Word backs its self up, from front to back, back to front!!
Jeremiah
67. js | December 3rd, 2007 at 8:42 am
>>>>>Can you cite the part where Jesus hated gays? I mean, seeing as how you Christians are always bleating, “It’s in the Bible!” to justify your anti-gay views and you are claiming that the Old Testament verses about how it’s OK to murder, enslave, and commit all sorts of brutality don’t count, then that one verse in the Old Testament against homosexuality similarly doesn’t count, right?<<<<<
ONLY if you promise to accept the truth if its given to you.
68. FmrMarine | December 3rd, 2007 at 11:59 am
aaron;
check this out…then tell us all about the religion (cult) of pieces
http://ballyblog.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/terrorists-are-muslims-list-of-islamic-terrorist-attacks/
69. Aaron | December 3rd, 2007 at 8:42 pm
Mark -
“…and then leap to the absurd conclusion that Christians in a Christian nation committed the Holocaust. “
Uh, that’s not an opinion that Christians carried out the holocaust - it’s just a matter of historical fact. Are you really saying that A) most of the participants in the Holocaust did not consider themselves Christians and were not from Christian families, and B) Germany was not a predominantly Christian nation?
Let me ask you one more question. Tell me the truth: Had the holocaust been carried out by mostly Muslims and a predominantly Muslim nation, you would not have been using that here on this blog as proof that Islam is evil?
Face it - you would have been howling to moon about it.
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