89 Comments

• 1. Kahn  |  December 8th, 2007 at 11:50 am

  Um, they were ACTUAL covert operatives on them. Liberals, reference your Plame arguments….

• 2. bagni  |  December 8th, 2007 at 11:52 am

  mattleakey
  are we missing the point on those tapes?
  ie….taken out of context
  when you consider all the torture turmoil discussion in the u.s.
  then it’s not about a leak
  it’s about the truth
  there’s no high security secrets in these tapes
  they could have easily ‘blurred out’ the faces of the undercover interrogators
  but the u.s. public would be quite queasy if they saw what was actually being done
  and the current admin doesn’t want that.
  in it’s worst case?
  this isn’t about protecting the rights of terrorists
  it’s about what they’ll do to the 19 yr old white kid who lives next door to you
  cuz he’s carrying an ak47 on the way to the mall
  then all of a sudden it’s more than muslims who are enemy combatants????
  and this completely disrupts…the current ‘m&m’ discrimination theory of blaming a muslim or mexican for all of our problems
  but i’m kinda getting off on a tangent?
  sorry…..

• 3. bagni  |  December 8th, 2007 at 12:25 pm

  one last comment and then i’ll shut up
  i mean
  even harriet miers didn’t want the tapes destroyed

• 4. mitche  |  December 8th, 2007 at 12:43 pm

  I am not a cut and paste guy, but this is well worth it. It makes one wonder if Khrushchev was correct although I never imagined that these issues would eminate from our countries “leaders”. (Snark)

  http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/12/krauthammer-on.html

• 5. Almiranta  |  December 8th, 2007 at 12:47 pm

  Just when I thought Teddy had set new records for chutzpah when he went on and on and on about the horrors of drowning (could he possibly think that ANYONE could hear him without forming a vivid and horrifying image of Mary Jo trying to fight her way out of a sunken car, slowly drowning while at the same time realizing that Married Snookums had callously left her to die ??) he comes up with a level of insanity that is simply stunning.

  Evidently with a straight face (though with Teddy “straight” is a concept long ago left in the shadows, along with “sober”) he queries: “Would it be beyond the agency’s technical expertise to preserve the tapes while hiding the identity of its employees? Does the director believe that the CIA’s employees cannot be trusted not to leak materials that might harm the agency?”

  This calls for about a seven-syllable Duuuuuuhhhhhh.

  While it may be within the technical expertise of the CIA to do darned near anything, who could possibly believe, or even imagine, that they would give a damn? There are so many rogue radicals in the CIA, dishing out classified information left and right (well, left….) that NOTHING is safe if it is protected by the CIA. Not if it could possibly be used to harm the Bush Adminstration, anyway.

  Ditto for query # 2: “Does the director believe that the CIA’s employees cannot be trusted not to leak materials that might harm the agency?”

  Uh, YEAH, Senator. Where have you BEEN lately? CIA employees have blithely turned over information which would not only harm the agency but the entire COUNTRY, Senator!

  You rabid radicals need to make up some kind of chart or something, so you can keep track of when you love the CIA and when you hate it, when it can be trusted and when it is just a tool of neocons, when revealing (again!! after hubby has been doing so for years) the identity of a non-covert desk jockey is the worst crime ever committed and when it is OK to risk revealing the identity of true covert FIELD OPERATIVES—-I know I can’t keep up.

  Oh, bagni, regarding your promise: “..one last comment and then i’ll shut up..”

  Thanks.

  Maybe now you have time to work on your literacy—I’d start with the Rogue Apostrophe if I were you.

  No, if I were you I would try to actually learn something before pontificating. What utter nonsense you spout!

  Your incoherent and senseless ramble through your hate-filled reality is pretty creepy. The glimpse you have given into your weird and vile pathology is, I think, a crash course in radical goofiness in general.

  Somehow you seem to defend a white kid headed to the mall with an AK-47, while dumping in some bizarro whine which I THINK says Americans are racist if they want to have their safety assured and their laws followed—who knows, it was pretty incoherent, but all in all you did a superb job of illustrating why the country thinks the radical Left is just plain nuts.

  And icky.

• 6. liberalT  |  December 8th, 2007 at 12:48 pm

  the fundamental flaw in your argument is that you are assuming that there are only two options.
  (1) destroy the tapes
  (2) release them to the public

  There have been plenty of things and are plenty of things that are kept secret for national security or to protect identities and only people with clearance can see them. It just patently ridiculous that you would argue that this is a good thing.
  (1) secrecy is inherently antithetical to a healthy democracy - sure there are things that you keep out of the public - but there was no need to destroy them
  (2) besides the fact that its illegal to destroy interrogation tapes in general - its just plain ridiculous that they would do this with the most contentious interrogations.

  No Matt - at best it was a mistake of the CIA to destroy them. At worst it is an attempt to cover up things that they don’t want a record of. There was no need to destroy them - there are plenty of secrets that are only seen by intelligence officials, congressmen, and presidents.. utter BS matt utter BS

• 7. FmrMarine  |  December 8th, 2007 at 1:16 pm

  BS?? plenty of secrets seen by traturous democRATS, and LEAKED
  by the ilks ok kennedy,kerry,murtha,etc etc.
  GET OVER it these are islaminic extremists hell bent on destroying our nation, culture, and civilization.
  Do what ever necessary to them.

• 8. liberalT  |  December 8th, 2007 at 1:31 pm

  the problem with your argument FmrMarine is three fold
  (1) the basics of morality dictate that you should “do onto others as you would want done on to you”. When you do “whatever (you eem) necessary” you are really not any better than the extremists themselves. In their mind - thats exactly what they are doing. They are doing “whatever is necessary” - if you do that you are no better than they are
  (2) its a slippery slope. If you allow torture of these guys - then why not murders or rapists who you don’t have enough evidence against to get a conviction. Why not against child molestors who repeat? and on and on. There are rules and laws which civilized people live by and the rules and laws are for exactly these situations..
  (3) the international community, our intelligence agencies, and our own military have all concluded multiple times that torture does not work. they give unreliable information because they will say whatever they think you want to hear in order to stop the torture. Ask John McCain what he thinks about waterboarding - he is a conservative pro-war politician who knows what torture is..

  everybody has strong emotions against the people who attacked and killed our people and loved ones. But just the same way that you don’t have lynch mobs in the streets for murders - you bring them to justice through law and order - you can’t do “whatever necessary” to these guys either.

• 9. bagni  |  December 8th, 2007 at 2:01 pm

  almi
  geez…i was really going to shut up
  and then you got all jiggy on me in your post

  sincere thanks for the apostrophe suggestion
  i’m working on my literacy
  what do you expect from an alien?

  and labeling me with ‘radical goofiness’ ???
  to me that’s a complement
  thanks !

  believe it or not
  i’m not hate filled or a liberal
  but maybe i stand corrected
  and wasn’t very good at ’splaining myself lucy
  because i wasn’t trying to be racist or defend ak47 mall shooters
  i was trying to convey the fact
  that most of the ‘terrorist’ attacks in the u.s.
  since 9/11
  have been driven by young white males

  and torture might be viewed differently
  when we start torturing our own
  instead of muslims and mexicans

  and hey…i admitted i got off on a tangent
  but don’t think i’m as angry as you?

  i’ll go away now forever
  will that make you happy?????

• 10. neocon  |  December 8th, 2007 at 2:57 pm

  The problem with your comment libT is one fold:

  1) You are an international apologist and you have mush for brains.

  Alimantra,

  One of your best posts at 12:47. And that’s saying a lot.

• 11. neocon  |  December 8th, 2007 at 3:05 pm

  bagni reveals his racism (young, “white” Americans) Can’t we all just be Americans?. And why wouldn’t you think we would be just as hard on our own as we would be on others?

  Secondly, comparing rogue, troubled teenagers crime sprees to Isalmist terrorism is just a bit deranged. Don’t cha think????

• 12. lilly06  |  December 8th, 2007 at 3:50 pm

  First of all it seems to be a complete joke to call America a democratic country whilst prisoners who do not receive trial or allow evidence against them to be heard infront of federal judge, be tortured.

  Tactics like these were used by the Gestapo in Nazi Germany where prisoners were tortured and held indefinately without trial.

  Fact is when you begin to go down this slippery slope, you look like a joke when you speak terms like ‘Democracy’ and ‘Liberation’.

  The Bush Administration has shown itself to be one the biggest hypocrites in America’s history.

  Provisions in the constitution have been suspended like the right to hebeas corpus, which under any case should not be suspended have infact, been suspended.

  This is not about liberalism and its so foolish for anyone to break this down by party lines. This is about the law and the fact that noone should be above it. No one should be allowed to suspend the constitution, the bill of rights and amend them as they see fit.

  The provisions of the constitution were based on liberty, freedom and all that America stood for.

  There are three houses of power:

  The president
  The Supreme Court
  Congress

  Fact is these three houses of power were DELIBRATELY separated so that some ’so called’ president can manipulate the system and try to cripple the power of any of the two houses. The president’s word is not ‘a and okay’. It should be subject to scritiny so he can be accountable to the people and that is what Congress and the Supreme Court are there for.

  For America to torture any prisoner is a disgrace and it mirrors the actions of countries that Mr Bush has openly criticized.

• 13. Leo Pusateri  |  December 8th, 2007 at 4:46 pm

  “For America to torture any prisoner is a disgrace and it mirrors the actions of countries that Mr Bush has openly criticized.”

  Said, Lilly, as a nuclear explosion obliterated Los Angeles.

• 14. Faceplant  |  December 8th, 2007 at 4:46 pm

  “when revealing (again!! after hubby has been doing so for years) the identity of a non-covert desk jockey is the worst crime ever committed and when it is OK to risk revealing the identity of true covert FIELD OPERATIVES—-I know I can’t keep up.”

  Ah, the old Valerie Plame wasn’t covert arguement rears it’s disgraceful little head. First of all her husband, Joe Wilson, didn’t reveal anything other than that her name was Valerie Plame, and that she was married to Joe Wilson. This is probably THE single most pathetic argument you guys put forward. It wasn’t a secret that Valerie Plame existed, and it wasn’t a secret that she was married to Joe Wilson. It WAS a secret that she was employed by the CIA, at least it was until your heroes in the Bush administration decided to ruin her career and place her sources at risk.

  But of course since Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh say she wasn’t covert, then she couldn’t possibly have been right? Nevermind the fact that the judge in Libby’s trial, the prosecuter, and the CIA all say she was covert at the time of her outing. Nevermind that an employment summary produced by the CIA stated that,

  “Plame, “engaged in temporary duty travel overseas on official business.” The report says, “she traveled at least seven times to more than ten times.” When overseas Plame traveled undercover, “sometimes in true name and sometimes in alias — but always using cover — whether official or non-official (NOC) — with no ostensible relationship to the CIA.”"

  Nevermind any of that. You’re content to just go along listening to the same people that have been wrong about almost everything. Whether it be Iraq, Plame, Iran etc.

• 15. liberalT  |  December 8th, 2007 at 4:55 pm

  Leo - you have to stop this non-sense that if we don’t torture people we are all going to die in a nuclear holocaust. The simple fact of the matter is - independent of the moral and legal arguments - we know that torture doesn’t work. That is the conclusion of international intelligence agencies, our own intelligence agencies, and our own military. So even - and its a huge even - if you could convince me that it was ok we know that it is horribly unreliable. You are not saving anybody - you are just taking retribution

• 16. AAR  |  December 8th, 2007 at 5:10 pm

  When will the CIA learn…

  Never put anything in writing.

  Never make videos of arrests or interrogations.

  Never bring terrorists or our enemies into this country and into the hands of the ACLU, Liberal lawyers, or the Liberal courts!

  Contract out the imprisonment and interrogation of our enemies to a third country!

  TASERS will be the new interrogation method of choice. They are clearly not torture. They are used on American citizens every day… on youth… on people who refuse to sign a speeding ticket… on the hearing impaired who can’t hear police instructions… and even on pregnant women!

  TASERS are good enough and safe enough to use on American citizens, so it’s certainly okay to zap the terrorists with 50,000 volts from TASERS (and a little pepper spray) to save American lives!!!

  AAR

• 17. jayhay  |  December 8th, 2007 at 5:17 pm

  This is NOT about coddling terrorists. It’s about ensuring your own fair treatment. The mistake you folks always make is that you judge these laws and standards we have only in relation to “the terrorists”. When, as the founders intended, you should judge them on how you would feel treated in the same way. Would you complain if you were detained, without trial, and applied with “enhanced interrogation techniques”? If some foreign country (or future administration) wanted to apply these tactics to you, would you want laws and standards to protect you? Would you want evidence of your mistreatment made public? I know you want to stick it to the bad guys, but that sword has a double edge.

  (security code words: “mangling many”)

• 18. AAR  |  December 8th, 2007 at 5:21 pm

  Leo,

  DIMocrats and LIBnuts believe anything which forces a terrorist to talk against their will without a lawyer in an effort to save American lives is torture. DIMocrats even believe a spanking is torture!

  The best thing would be to delete the comments of any Liberal who continues to define torture as loud music, sleep deprivation, a cool room, or a couple of minutes of a terrorist fearing they are about to drown (while they are thinking about the thousands of Americans they have killed or plan to kill)!

  AAR

• 19. liberalT  |  December 8th, 2007 at 5:35 pm

  you also neglect that the majority of people that were at Gitmo were released after it was determined that they had nothing to do with terrorism and were just at the wrong place at the wrong time. I hope you will accept it when you or your family members are beaten, frozen, humiliated, kept sleep deprived and made feel like you are going to drown to death I simply cannot understand how you cannot see that as torture. Under any definition (previous to the Bush administration) in international law or in our law all of these things were torture. How you can stand here and defend it is unbelievable

• 20. AAR  |  December 8th, 2007 at 5:37 pm

  jayhay,

  It’s about ensuring your own fair treatment.

  So you’re saying…

  If Americans will stop hijacking commercial airliner and flying them into Muslim buildings, Al Qaeda will stop doing that to American buildings?

  If Americans will stop blowing themselves up in suicide attacks on Arab soldiers, Al Qaeda will stop blowing Americans and other men, women, and children up in suicide attacks all around the world?

  If Americans will stop dragging bodies through the streets and hanging them from bridges, Al Qaeda will stop doing the same?

  If Americans will stop chopping off heads, Al Qaeda will stop doing the same?

  If Americans will provide a nice comfortable room, Muslim food, a Koran, and a lawyer for the terrorist captives, Al Qaeda will do the same for ours?

  Can you get that “promise” in writing?!!!

  AAR

• 21. AAR  |  December 8th, 2007 at 5:45 pm

  liberalT,

  “I hope you will accept it when you or your family members” or your friends “were just at the wrong place at the wrong time” if the next terrorist attack is on your own town or city!

  AAR

• 22. Ricorun  |  December 8th, 2007 at 5:57 pm

  lily06: This is not about liberalism, and it’s so foolish for anyone to break this down by party lines. This is about the law and the fact that no one should be above it. No one should be allowed to suspend the constitution, the bill of rights and amend them as they see fit.

  First of all, pardon me for amending your grammar. But I totally agree. Unfortunately, I’m not at all convinced that many of those who criticize the Bush administration with the relentlessness and abject horror that they display are likely to be as critical of any administration they may prefer more. Likewise, I find it equally unlikely that many of those that bend over backwards to give the Bush administration a pass will do the same for any administration they prefer less. I would hope that’s not true, but it probably is. Time will tell, I guess.

  In the mean time I find it incredible that anyone can reflexively defend what has apparently happened here. In order to defend it one has to resort to some kind of grand conspiracy theory, or to assume that the entire government is so rife with incompetence as to be terribly dysfunctional. Either way, it has to be blamed on some sort of cohesive “Liberal cabal” in order to provide the necessary partisan import.

  Well, first of all I find the notion of a “cohesive Liberal cabal” to be a contradiction in terms. Having said that though, I don’t doubt that conspiracies are afoot. But it appears they exist on both sides of the aisle, and none of them could be truly considered “grand” or “cohesive”. Likewise, I don’t doubt that the government has real problems which, in some respects, rises to the level of dysfunctional. But I don’t see it as a partisan problem. I see it as a bipartisan concern. And it seems to me that if we can’t figure out a way to hang together, all of us will end up hanging separately.

• 23. neocon  |  December 8th, 2007 at 5:58 pm

  >>>It’s about ensuring your own fair treatment - jayhay<<<<

  Oh please. Tell that to Daniel Pearl or Danny Bergs family. And those horrific, barbaric acts would have happened, and will continue to happen under this Islamic jihad whether we torture or serve tea and crumpets to our captives.

  That being said, I only support waterboarding under SEVERE circumstances. According to all information available, there have been just three instances of waterboarding in five years. Obviously, it is not taken lightly by the military either and I trust their judgement on whether or not the situation is extreme. You obviously don’t.

  libT,

  Are you saying that all early detainees at Gitmo were tortured? If so, I anxiously await the proof I am sure you must have.

  And do you support a womans right to a partial birth abortion?

• 24. What?  |  December 8th, 2007 at 5:59 pm

  OMG, The terrorist have attacked Leo’s and AAR’s imaginations!!! Just look at all the apocalyptic images they have stuffed inside these two men’s small craniums. Whatever will we do?

• 25. neocon  |  December 8th, 2007 at 6:07 pm

  I don’t know why anyone is surprised by this thread. The CIA, and many other government agencies are a mess. And this isn’t because of Bush. It’s been this way since Johnson.

  Nepotism, cronyism and incompetence have created bloated and inefficient bureaucracies in many areas the government and unless that is addressed, not much will change.

• 26. Casper  |  December 8th, 2007 at 6:24 pm

  “the tapes were destroyed in part because officers were concerned that video showing harsh interrogation methods could expose agency officials to legal risks, several officials said.”

  Isn’t destroying evidence to cover up a possible crime against the law?

  “I hope you will accept it when you or your family members” or your friends “were just at the wrong place at the wrong time” if the next terrorist attack is on your own town or city!

  AAR

  Does that mean that if we allow torture that there won’t be any attacks?

  “But I don’t see it as a partisan problem. I see it as a bipartisan concern. And it seems to me that if we can’t figure out a way to hang together, all of us will end up hanging separately.”

  Rico,
  I agree completely. Both ends of the spectrum are more concerned about covering their own butts and putting down the other side than actually winning any war with terrorists.

• 27. Casper  |  December 8th, 2007 at 6:30 pm

  “I don’t know why anyone is surprised by this thread. The CIA, and many other government agencies are a mess. And this isn’t because of Bush. It’s been this way since Johnson.

  Nepotism, cronyism and incompetence have created bloated and inefficient bureaucracies in many areas the government and unless that is addressed, not much will change.”

  neocon,
  I agree 100%. Well, maybe not 100%. I think Bush deserves part of the blame. Part of the problem is we have caught our leaders in too many lies, starting with Johnson and the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution and continuing through just about every administration since. We no longer have faith in our government.

• 28. liberalT  |  December 8th, 2007 at 6:38 pm

  we don’t know exactly what happened - because our government refuses to tell us. In fact they have done more than that - they have destroyed tapes of what they did.

  What we do know is what the detainees say what happened and the conditions of their bodies. It is widely reported that many detainees report being beaten, striped, made to stand naked in freezing rooms for up to 48 hours at a time while cold water is thrown on them periodically to keep them from sleeping, and various other “enhanced interrogation techniques” used. And its not just the eye witness reports - there is also medical evidence in there bodies which is consistent with the stories and have very common themes.

  Do I have the video tape - no thanks to the CIA they destroyed it.

  Seriously - why do you want to torture people. We know that it doesn’t work to get information even if you can convince yourself that its morally acceptable. Why do it?

• 29. Ricorun  |  December 8th, 2007 at 6:42 pm

  By the way, before I get accused of plagiarism, I didn’t exactly make up that “hanging together/hanging separately” comment all by myself. I borrowed it. I’d offer 100 bucks to the first person who figures out who I borrowed it from, but if I did I’d have to borrow 100 bucks. LOL!

• 30. Casper  |  December 8th, 2007 at 7:00 pm

  Rico,
  I believe the exact quote was “we must all stand together or most assuredly we will all hang separately”, by Ben Franklin.

• 31. Casper  |  December 8th, 2007 at 7:03 pm

  Rico,
  Use your 100 bucks to take your sweety out for dinner. Here is one for you. What did George Washington say before he crossed the Delaware?

• 32. Ricorun  |  December 8th, 2007 at 7:03 pm

  Casper!!! You blew my fun! By the way, can I borrow a 100 bucks? (hint hint)

• 33. Ricorun  |  December 8th, 2007 at 7:09 pm

  Casper: What did George Washington say before he crossed the Delaware?

  Umm…. “Hey, I’m the only one throwing money around and I don’t even get a seat!!?”

  Just guessing.

• 34. Casper  |  December 8th, 2007 at 7:16 pm

  Rico,
  Sadly, my wife keeps me on a pretty tight budget. Tell you what. Answer my question and the next package I send to our soldiers will be in your name.

• 35. neocon  |  December 8th, 2007 at 7:21 pm

  libT,

  What you described is not torture. I don’t condone torture. Waterboarding, in my opinion, is not torture. It does not physically maim or disfigure, nor is it phsychologically altering. I have read that either Zubadey or Khalid broke after just minutes of the process and offered very specific information.

  It has been used very sparingly and in justified instances and it must be left on the table as an interrogation technique.

  That being said, it should only be applied as a last resort in only the most severe situations. I trust the military to abide by that standard and I think their history demonstrates that they have.

  You’re just wrong on this issue. And others to.

• 36. USA  |  December 8th, 2007 at 7:25 pm

  Well we can all see what side of the law Matt is on. The wrong side.

  Matt is complaining that criminals are getting caught. Very telling.

  No one is trying to undermine the war on terror, Matt, only undermine criminals. And that’s the truth of what your angry about, isn’t it? Do you even realize your own motives? We can see right through your lies even if you can’t.

• 37. liberalT  |  December 8th, 2007 at 7:29 pm

  First of all - i disagree that it isn’t “psychologically altering” - that is not a judgment that you are qualified to make . However, we do know from testing detainees that the experience has done significant psychological damage to many detainees. They show symptoms clinical anxiety, depression, paranoia as well as reporting not being able to sleep or concentrate for years after the experiences.
  Secondly - you are just wrong about the definition of torture being only limited to physical maiming or disfigurement
  here is the document we signed in 1994:
  the U.S. government when it signed the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment in 1994:

  [I]n order to constitute torture, an act must be specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering and … mental pain or suffering refers to prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from:

  (1) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;

  (2) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;

  (3) the threat of imminent death; or

  (4) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality. 4

  waterboarding certainly counts as torture under this definition, under the definition of the geneva conventions, under the definition of our own military. We can never torture ever. PERIOD. if you do - you are no better than the terrorists who use violence to get to their goals

• 38. Casper  |  December 8th, 2007 at 7:30 pm

  neocon,
  Under what circumstances would you allow waterboarding? Would you want it used only if other techniques had failed, or if there were time constraints would you ok its use at the beginning.

• 39. neocon  |  December 8th, 2007 at 7:32 pm

  Waterboarding does not meet the standard set by those definitions.

• 40. Casper  |  December 8th, 2007 at 7:36 pm

  It just hit me, that if waterboarding is an effective technique, that the destroyed tapes could have been used as proof of its effectiveness.

• 41. neocon  |  December 8th, 2007 at 7:39 pm

  I would only support waterboarding if interrogators felt that this was an extreme situation that could provide real time information to avert large scale attacks.

  That being said, I think you could only apply that to Zubadey and Khalid. I am unsure who the third captive was that it was applied to, but it may or may n ot have been justified.

  I wouldn’t have supported it really in any other war, where the foot soldiers possess very little information. These captives are different, they are high up the food chain and have timely information.

• 42. liberalT  |  December 8th, 2007 at 7:40 pm

  what are you talking about. Are you forgetting that people who have been waterboarding are made to feel like they are drowning? That is threat of death, Indeed that is the entire purpose of water boarding - to be made to feel as if you are going to drown. Just keep on making up lies..

• 43. Ricorun  |  December 8th, 2007 at 7:41 pm

  I don’ t need your money Casper. But I do feel like rolling up A HUNDRED DOLLAR BILL and batting you over the head with it (wink wink).

  Also let me say that what you and your kids are doing is a wonderful thing. Bless you. Somewhat more selfishly, my sweetie’s daughter is getting hitched to young Marine in a couple of weeks. His family’s from Maryland and can’t afford to come out. But they will be here.

• 44. Casper  |  December 8th, 2007 at 7:49 pm

  Ricorun,
  After your young marine is deployed, get me an address and I will have some of my kids write letters. It’s good for the kids because it gives them a break from the normal Marxist, liberal, gay, anti-Christian indoctrination I throw at them on a daily basis.

• 45. AAR  |  December 8th, 2007 at 7:49 pm

  Casper,

  No, it means that if we allow our intelligence agencies to do their jobs and use appropriate techniques, we will reduce the chances and numbers of terrorist attacks, and those from other nations!

  You and your Democrat (Liberal) friends are the ones who choose to call it torture in your effort to mislead and endanger Americans… I DO NOT!

  When the next attack occurs, as it almost certainly will, that is the time we will once again have the attention of the American people, and that is when they will be able to see and understand how Liberals have helped the terrorists!

  When that time comes, Conservatives must be fully prepared and ready to do what’s necessary to reverse the Liberal nonsense — to include the death penalty or life in prison for those who release America’s secrets to our enemies!

  The day and time will come!!!

  AAR

• 46. neocon  |  December 8th, 2007 at 8:02 pm

  Exactly. It gives the sensation of drowning and is most often a quick proceedure.

  And it’s been used three times.

  And that’s what the fuss is about. No gulags, no dungeons, no rape rooms. Three quick waterboarding sessions to three highly valued targets.

• 47. USA  |  December 8th, 2007 at 8:07 pm

  “When the next attack occurs, as it almost certainly will”

  Really! You better run to the Pentagon and tell them!

  Sounds like you want to blame anything that happens in the future on Liberals so the true culprits like you will get away with the crime.

  “…necessary to reverse the Liberal nonsense”

  Oh liberal nonsence?, funny this is it’s not going to be liberals, it’s going to be YOU.

• 48. liberalT  |  December 8th, 2007 at 8:08 pm

  (1)It doesn’t matter that its “quick” it still makes the person feel like they are going to drown - ie. die and hence is under convention that the United States ratified torture. I can chop off someone’s hand rather quickly - the fact that it is quick means nothing.

  (2) you don’t know how many times it has been used. We know that at least 3 times it has been used. We don’t know - because they do things like destroy tapes. As well - it doesn’t matter that it was “only” 3 times. Its unacceptable even once. If I “only” comitted a crime 3 times would that be acceptable reason to avoid punishment

  (3) while it is true that it is not cutting someone open, raping, or putting someone in a gulag that does not justify it. The fact that there are worse things that can happen is not a justification for the action. If I “only” rob someone is it ok because i didn’t kill them?

  Look you are an apologist trying desperately to come up with excuses - pathetic ones - that justify a horrible action. If you cannot accept that we should not torture people you are no better than the people who think that their means (blowing up buildings) justifies their ends. Stop making such a fool of yourself in front of the world and god.

• 49. USA  |  December 8th, 2007 at 8:13 pm

  “The best thing would be to delete the comments of any Liberal who”

  Oh come on, isn’t the real reason you want liberal comments deleted is because lies can only stand alone?

  Aren’t conservatives doing a good enough job completely ignoring other people’s proof and counter arguements?

• 50. Ricorun  |  December 8th, 2007 at 8:13 pm

  AAR: You and your Democrat (Liberal) friends are the ones who choose to call it torture in your effort to mislead and endanger Americans… I DO NOT!

  Damn that Army field manual! What a leftie screed!

  But for the most part I agree with neocon: extraordinary situations may, in rare instances, may require extraordinary measures. Granted, I have no intimate knowledge of interrogation techniques, much less “aggressive” ones (or whatever the currently accepted nomenclature is). But it appears that among those in the know, different people have different opinions on the matter — especially in time-critical situations on individuals deemed susceptible. So I can’t categorically rule it out. Nonetheless, it seems to me that if such a procedure is contemplated, a Really Big Head should make the decision — i.e., the president or the SecDef. Is that too much to ask?

• 51. neocon  |  December 8th, 2007 at 8:18 pm

  You must know that I am shocked we disagree. And your drama queen, cocktail party approach to the worlds ills are what you should be embarrassed about.

  I am proud of your strong stance against the human rights violations and the genocide currently on going on Darfur. Will you have fundraiser next week?

• 52. Casper  |  December 8th, 2007 at 8:21 pm

  “I would only support waterboarding if interrogators felt that this was an extreme situation that could provide real time information to avert large scale attacks.”

  neocon,
  Thanks for your answer.
  One of the problems is things are rarely that cut and dried. I wish they were.
  Look, I want our agents to have the most effective techniques available to them. I’m just not convinced at this point that waterboarding is that effective. I’m also not convinced we’ve only used it three times, but I will accept that figure until I see solid evidence it’s wrong.

• 53. Casper  |  December 8th, 2007 at 8:29 pm

  BTW, Matt and Mark,
  Are you aware that there is a Amazon.com ad at the top of this page advertising books and videos of naked girls?

• 54. Matt Margolis  |  December 8th, 2007 at 8:42 pm

  Casper, the Amazon ad automatically determines what books/videos to show based on the content of the page it is on, and your own view/buying behavior on Amazon.

  I have never seen any inappropriate item featured on the Amazon ad. So, I’m quite certain that it is not keywords on this site that are prompting such items being displayed on the ad you see.

• 55. liberalT  |  December 8th, 2007 at 9:00 pm

  well - i don’t know what you have been buying Matt - -here is the link:
  http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FBMLL0?tag=blogsforbush-20&camp=211493&creative=379981&linkCode=op1&creativeASIN=B000FBMLL0&adid=0XNFMX6DNA23PSA7N27V&

• 56. Casper  |  December 8th, 2007 at 9:02 pm

  “Casper, the Amazon ad automatically determines what books/videos to show based on the content of the page it is on, and your own view/buying behavior on Amazon.”

  You might want to check with them, because if was really based on my view/buying behavior, I would be getting lots of history book hits. I have never bought any of the types of books or videos that are showing up.

• 57. liberalT  |  December 8th, 2007 at 9:04 pm

  nope - look at the link Matt - its clearly a “Blogs for Bush ” thing - it appears explicitly in the html

• 58. AAR  |  December 8th, 2007 at 9:12 pm

  liberalT,

  Too bad we can’t ask the people on those airliners, the World Trade Center, and the Pentagon if they thought it would be torture and mental anguish if those terrorists had been made to believe they were about to drown for a few seconds, or made to listen to loud music, or deprived of sleep, or kept in a cool room!

  Too bad we can’t ask the people who jumped from the World Trade Center — as they were falling through the air and thinking about their REAL death — if it would have been torture for their terrorist killers to “fear” they “might” die, if that could have saved the lives of those 3,000 people — mostly Americans!

  I don’t believe those who DID die that day would share your concern or worry about a little mental anguish or FEAR of death those terrorists might have felt. Think about the REAL horror and mental anguish the terrorists’ victims felt as they waited in the burning buildings and the airliners — contemplating their own deaths. Think about the REAL fear, mental anguish, and terror felt by those who jumped to their deaths to avoid being burned alive!

  Think about the REAL horror, terror, and mental anguish their families, and the entire world, felt as they watched those people jump and watched the World Trade Center collapse — not knowing if it was their husband, wife, mother, father, son, daughter, relative, or friend they just watched die!

  These are the thoughts and images Americans should be reminded about as our intelligence agencies work to try to protect them, their families, and their cities from the same thing in the future — perhaps much more deadly!

  Would Americans approve of loud music, sleep deprivation, or a few seconds of a terrorist being made to “feel” they were drowning to prevent the REAL and ACTUAL deaths and anguish of another 9/11? When the next terrorist attack occurs, the answer will be YES!

  Too bad we can’t also ask those victims of 9/11 if they were concerned about the “possibility” of “significant psychological damage” to their terrorist murderers!

  DEMOCRATS… Stop thinking about the few seconds a terrorist might “fear” they are about to die…

  Think about the terrorists’ REAL victims… and the YEARS of REAL mental anguish their families WILL and DO feel!!!

  Think about saving the lives of American families!

  AAR

• 59. Casper  |  December 8th, 2007 at 9:30 pm

  AAR,
  So who were we holding that could have provided the information to stop 9/11?
  Prove that waterboarding would have prevented 9/11.
  Prove it will prevent future attacks.

• 60. AAR  |  December 8th, 2007 at 9:33 pm

  Ricorun,

  So I can’t categorically rule it out. Nonetheless, it seems to me that if such a procedure is contemplated, a Really Big Head should make the decision — i.e., the president or the SecDef. Is that too much to ask?

  Now you’ve strayed from the Democrats’ position. I have said something similar before.

  I do not believe the most aggressive techniques are appropriate for all (most) cases, but I also do not believe those techniques should be prohibited and “taken off the table”. The very possibility and fear that they might be used can be as effective as their actual use. One article I read, said that most of those interrogated “broke” because of the “fear” of waterboarding and not it’s actual use.

  I agree there should be appropriate justification, procedures, and approvals for the more aggressive interrogations. I’ll have to rely on the experts to decide what is appropriate and when.

  AAR

• 61. liberalT  |  December 8th, 2007 at 9:37 pm

  AAR - because I believe that we shouldn’t torture people doesn’t mean that I don’t think fighting terrorism is important. However - we know as a matter of fact - that torture is a notoriously bad at getting the truth because people will say anything to stop being tortured.

  Its not just liberals - John McCain - a pro-war Republican believes that waterboarding is torture. He should know he was tortured.

  There are plenty of ways to fight terrorism without torturing people . Again you are just trying to confuse the issue by saying that because i believe in the radical notion that we shouldn’t torture people that I am some how soft on terrorism or even responsible for it.

  Shame on you. Shame on you for using the victims of 9/11 for expediency in an argument.

• 62. AAR  |  December 8th, 2007 at 9:48 pm

  Casper,

  Prove that we won’t be attacked by another nation in the future, and we can disband our military!

  Prove the Earth will be in a warming cycle 25 years from now, and not cooling as a result of reduced solar activity, volcanic activity, nuclear winter, or some other event!

  Prove those ads appearing on your screen weren’t the result of previous browsing activity whereby Amazon.com determined which books might be of interest to you — not necessarily the books you may have actually searched for on Amazon.com!

  AAR

• 63. Casper  |  December 8th, 2007 at 10:07 pm

  “Prove that we won’t be attacked by another nation in the future, and we can disband our military!

  Prove the Earth will be in a warming cycle 25 years from now, and not cooling as a result of reduced solar activity, volcanic activity, nuclear winter, or some “other event! ”

  I can’t, anymore than you can prove waterboarding can save lives. That’s the point.

  Prove those ads appearing on your screen weren’t the result of previous browsing activity whereby Amazon.com determined which books might be of interest to you — not necessarily the books you may have actually searched for on Amazon.com!”

  Actually, that’s one I can prove. If you want to send the computer expert of your choice to my house I would be more than willing to let him or her examine my computer to determine what my browsing activity has been. I’m even willing to pay for his or her time if it is determined that I have accessed any sites containing naked pictures of either sex, or that I have ordered or searched for books containing naked pictures on Amazon. However, you have to be willing to pay for the person’s time if they can’t find either pictures or searches.

• 64. Ricorun  |  December 8th, 2007 at 10:10 pm

  AAR: Now you’ve strayed from the Democrats’ position. I have said something similar before.

  This isn’t the first time for me, either. Go figure. But thank you for coming down off your “snow drift” and venturing into the middle of the road — figuratively speaking.

  But I also have to agree with something LiberalT said (which doesn’t happen very often either): “Shame on you for using the victims of 9/11 for expediency in an argument. I won’t go any further than that. But really… shame. With all due respect, I think you need to clean your act up a bit. Perhaps you need to make a decision: either go with your honest and respectable side or give into your inclination to become a propagandist. You seem to be struggling, and trying to find a way to reconcile the two. I don’t think you’re going to find it. But whatever you decide keep in mind who the ultimate judge will be. And it sure ain’t me — or you.

• 65. AAR  |  December 8th, 2007 at 10:10 pm

  liberalT,

  What, are the REAL thoughts and feelings those victims and their families DID THINK and DID FEEL too much for you to think about?

  Shame on you for not thinking about the REAL horrors, thoughts, feelings, and fears felt by the victims of 9/11 and their families!

  Shame on you for not thinking about future victims, and the REAL horrors and mental anguish they will feel!

  Shame on you for worrying about a few seconds, or at most a couple of minutes, of “IMAGINED FEAR” a terrorist might experience while you DEMOCRATS ignore the REAL FEAR and REAL HORROR felt by their victims and families!

  The thoughts of the victims of 9/11 and their families are EXACTLY what the American voters should be thinking about while you DEMOCRATS (Liberals) are thinking about and working to protect and coddle their killers!!!

  American’s must think about preventing attacks in the future, and the REAL feelings and horrors that result!

  If American’s value the lives of their families… never, ever trust America’s security and defense to Democrats (Liberals)!!!

  AAR

• 66. AAR  |  December 8th, 2007 at 10:19 pm

  Casper,

  Whatever you say!

  I didn’t say you were looking at sex sites, I only said that Amazon.com may have used your browsing history to determine which books might be of interest to you. Perhaps a Liberal at Amazon.com thought you should have been reading those sites and was just trying to nudge you in that direction!

  I didn’t have any ads appearing on my screen. My ad blocker took care of them!

  AAR

• 67. Casper  |  December 8th, 2007 at 10:34 pm

  “Perhaps a Liberal at Amazon.com thought you should have been reading those sites and was just trying to nudge you in that direction!”

  That’s funny. I can just see someone at Amazon looking at my history and deciding my sex life isn’t good enough. Perhaps he or she thought I was spending to much time looking in the past.

• 68. AAR  |  December 8th, 2007 at 10:59 pm

  Ricorun,

  There you go again… telling me I should be ashamed of myself!

  I need to do whatever it takes to prevent the American people from being suckered by Democrats, and to prevent Democrats from weakening our efforts to fight our enemies!

  I say again, Americans need to think about the REALITY of what the victims and families thought, and what future victims will feel — and not allow themselves to be misdirected and mislead by DEMOCRATS!

  This is not a game of Liberal “political correctness” — the lives of Americans and their families are at stake and DEMOCRATS are working to “hog tie” the hands of those whose duty and mission it is to protect us!

  I’m not struggling at all. There is nothing to reconcile. I’m fighting a bunch of propagandizing extremist Liberals (Democrats) and I’m using a variety of methods — while learning from those same Liberals!

  If it were not for the DIMwits and LIBnuts posting here, my comments might possibly meet with your approval more of the time. I get tired and irritated at them posting their same Liberal rhetoric and propaganda on this and other Conservative sites!

  Even if the American people won’t listen and don’t understand what Democrats are doing to America now, they will at some time in the future — when events will re-focus their attention on reality. That’s when Conservatives must be ready to act!

  I’m still not including you and Casper in the extremist Liberal category — even if you do put me in the other extreme. In reality, though, you might sometimes be wrong in that assessment!

  AAR

• 69. Casper  |  December 8th, 2007 at 11:08 pm

  “I’m still not including you and Casper in the extremist Liberal category — even if you do put me in the other extreme. In reality, though, you might sometimes be wrong in that assessment!”

  AAR,
  Thanks, I guess. You might be surprised on show many things we agree on.
  Just one thing to think about. If you copy all of the tactics used by your foes, in the end what is the difference between you and them?

• 70. AAR  |  December 9th, 2007 at 12:06 am

  Casper,

  Unfortunately, the Democrats’ Left-Wing tactics and techniques work. The past seven years have shown that to be true… and it’s getting worse.

  I don’t like politics… I don’t like writing… and I have other things I would prefer to do rather than comment on political blogs. I wouldn’t even be posting here if I hadn’t gotten totally fed up with seven years the Democrats’ hate-Bush, hate-America campaign and their misleading propaganda.

  I suspect we would agree on many things, or at least not be as far apart as it might seem, if we had a face to face, back and forth chat. I also think sometimes you are “toying” with me!

  Glad you enjoyed the misdirected humor!

  AAR

• 71. AAR  |  December 9th, 2007 at 12:16 am

  Ricorun,

  I’m more middle of the road than you might think on many issues (but not all).

  The problem right now is that the Left-Wing fringe, and Democrats in general, have pulled the “middle of the road” to the Left. Taking a middle of the road position will not pull it back toward the right. That takes some of the same tactics — extremism on the Right — to shift the middle back toward the Right hand side of the road!

  AAR

• 72. phnx  |  December 9th, 2007 at 3:21 am

  Leftists are all for revealing the identity of our agents to serve their purposes of destroying our government. But they are absolutely opposed to showing pictures of aborted babies, as this is too disturbing for public view.

  Leftists Hypocrites!!

• 73. phnx  |  December 9th, 2007 at 4:06 am

  From the leftists posts above it is clear that they will only be satisfied when all terrorists, armed combatants and anyone caught during military operations should be immediatley assigned an ACLU lawyer, granted all the protections afforded to US citizens under the US Constitution, and a jury trial of their peers, namely other terrorists, to determine their guilt or innocence.

  Why stop there? Let’s go ahead and given them immediate citizenship.

• 74. phnx  |  December 9th, 2007 at 4:11 am

  According to the CIA, these interogations were made to ensure that they were carried out according to legally authorized guidelines. Once it was established that they were, there was no longer any intellegence value in them so they were destroyed.

  Yet, without any evidence, the leftists are CERTAIN that this is part of a cover-up of actual torture.

• 75. lilly06  |  December 9th, 2007 at 7:24 am

  Anyone who believes armogeddon is going to be because of the next terrorist attack is obviously someone who isn’t well read and has been watching way too much tv.

  Fact is, it is about time more of the people on this web site who call themselves so called patriots started READING rather than allowing yourselves to be spoon fed by biased information.

  The issue of terrorism affects the world, read the accounts of non-American involvement in the war and what they have to say about the ‘war on terror’. Fact is, Bush and his cronies are biased and will obviously have their reasons for wanting to let people see this from one point of view.

  Other accounts by non-American authors will obvious offer a less partial understanding. There is no reason for non-Americans to really dislike the ‘war on terror’ or the Bush Administration unless the ‘war on terror’ is exactly what it is: ‘A LOAD OF BULL’.

• 76. neocon  |  December 9th, 2007 at 9:09 am

  libT never answered my partial birth abortion questions, so I will have to assume.

  I assume libT supports the practice of jamming a metal vaccuum tube of the back of the spine of a baby until it reaches the back of the brain, at which point the vaccuum is activated and the brains of an infant are sucked out, resulting in the death of a baby.

  Yet libT vociferously opposes tough interrogation tachniques against mass murderers.

  Nice. That’s your modern day liberal, right lily06?

• 77. Hates Cows--Male  |  December 9th, 2007 at 9:48 am

  You rabid radicals need to make up some kind of chart or something, so you can keep track of when you love the CIA and when you hate it,…

  Almiranta, it’s like everthing else with these lemmings–if the CIA leaks classified info to the press, then they’re patriots. When they “torture” or report progress in the GWOT, they’re Bush “puppets.” The old “wet finger in the wind” syndrome.

  Leftists are all for revealing the identity of our agents to serve their purposes of destroying our government.

  Yew, phnx, but let someone “out” a CIA desk-jockey, and they go ballistic.

  Leo - you have to stop this non-sense…

  libretardTHC, you have to stop this nonsense you call intelligent thought. Learn to write, idiot, and maybe you’ll garner a little respect. Not from me, but maybe you’ll fool someone into thinking your brain has developed beyond third-grade level.

  Disclaimer: I am a staunch supporter of torture. After all, I read troll-puke posts in this blogs daily, and what could be more tortuous than that?

• 78. liberalT  |  December 9th, 2007 at 1:24 pm

  Hates - you are correct of course. I had a dash in a word that shouldn’t have one. That is the only thing that you are correct about. I am not sure why that it is at all relevant to the subject at hand. This is a blog. This is not a formal paper. This is not a published journal. This is a blog. If your biggest victory is correcting grammar - so be it.

  neocon - I didn’t answer your question because it is not relevant to the subject at hand. You are simply trying to confuse the issue because you know how weak your position is.

  (1) we know that torture is not reliable - it doesn’t work
  (2) we know that on any basis of morality we shouldn’t torture
  (3) we know that some of the techniques that have been used qualify as torture under international guidelines, the guidelines of our own military, and various treaties that we have ratified.

  Stop using 9/11 victims for the expediency of your argument. It is shameful. Surely I support the bringing to justice of those responsible. Just because I don’t support torture doesn’t mean I don’t feel for them. That sort of argument is only used when you didn’t and in fact couldn’t respond to any of the substantive points I raised. When defeated you fall back to your 2nd grade mentality of screaming insults, trying to confuse the issue with others, and using 9/11 victims as pawns for your argument.

  Just go quietly into the night and don’t make it any worse for yourself…

• 79. mitche  |  December 9th, 2007 at 3:05 pm

  Phnx:
  Your comments would be laughable if they were not so sad and shocking. You deserve the Heisman
  Trophy for paranoia run wild.
  A government headed by authoritarins such as Cheney and his mindless mouthpiece GWB needs to be destroyed, before they destroy all of us. (Or the U.S.) I sure hope that they haven’t gotten too much of a head start and are stoped before it is too late.
  Being an optimist, they are begining to look more and more like vampires on a day pass.

• 80. phnx  |  December 9th, 2007 at 3:45 pm

  And which comments might those be Mitchie?

  Your comment that the government headed by Bush & Cheney needs to be destroyed. You are referring to the democratically elected government of the United States.

  So this statement of yours seems to prove my point. YOU are one of the leftists that wishes to destroy our government.

  This is a clear violation of the Smith Act. Section II & III of the act state that anyone who “advocates, abets, advises, or teaches” the violent overthrow of the government; publishes or distributes printed matter that advocates the violent overthrow may be tried under the provisions of this act.

  Care to elaborate further leftist????

• 81. searp  |  December 9th, 2007 at 4:16 pm

  Why not just waterboard everyone who is ever arrested? Hell, it is more efficient, and we’d get tons more confessions.

• 82. bongoman  |  December 9th, 2007 at 4:22 pm

  Interrogators did their best to find out [if “enhanced interrogation” techniques worked], Suskind reports. They strapped Abu Zubaydah to a water-board, which reproduces the agony of drowning. They threatened him with certain death. They withheld medication. They bombarded him with deafening noise and harsh lights, depriving him of sleep. Under that duress, he began to speak of plots of every variety — against shopping malls, banks, supermarkets, water systems, nuclear plants, apartment buildings, the Brooklyn Bridge, the Statue of Liberty. With each new tale, “thousands of uniformed men and women raced in a panic to each…target.” And so, Suskind writes, “the United States would torture a mentally disturbed man and then leap, screaming, at every word he uttered.”

  —Suskind, The One Percent Doctrine

  “So here’s what the tapes would have shown: not just that we had brutally tortured an al-Qaeda operative, but that we had brutally tortured an al-Qaeda operative who was (a) unimportant and low-ranking, (b) mentally unstable, (c) had no useful information, and (d) eventually spewed out an endless series of worthless, fantastical “confessions” under duress. This was all prompted by the president of the United States, implemented by the director of the CIA, and the end result was thousands of wasted man hours by intelligence and and law enforcement personnel.”

  —Kevin Drum

• 83. mitche  |  December 9th, 2007 at 5:03 pm

  Phnx:
  Rise from the ashes Pheonix. That’s the 1st step. Yeah, I will elaborate further but you are to much of a dim-witted sheep minded twit to absorb any enligtenment from what I say, so essentially there is no point in my wasting time trying to; well enligthen and educate you but here goes anyway.
  The history of the tradition of the United States of America has been radically effected by an incompetent, juvinille minded, intellectually incourious religious wack job and eternally prepubescent president who is angry at his father and wants to compete with him in order to prove his manhood and…(dum dum dah DA!) claims he is CEO minded but what he really is, is an angry school boy who surrounds himself with his fathers inferiors to be used as a weapon against the world.
  And unfortunately most of humanity….(and the climate as a tangenital consequence)…is paying and suffering the price of their (PNAC, Dick Cheney, et al) paranoid and absolute conviction that might makes right and if one turns on enough lights at the right time that all of the cock-a-roaches will be exposed.
  Well, thats what my 4 year old tells me.
  Sadly for you Phnx, this fairytale that you desperately need to believe in in order to give your pathetic little life meaning by pretending to be soooooooo intellectual and free thinking (i.e liberal) is so totally misdirected and fundementally doomed to faliure.
  So continue to defend the indefensable in a political context just because you can twist a double helix.
  WhoppDe Doo.
  Anyone who breaths and walks upright can manipulate language and arguement.
  That doesn’t give you an advantage over truth and reality.
  The people who are left that occupy the highest offices of power in the good ‘ole USA of today not only should not have ever been afford the position, (and they did so by mongering fear to the people and cheating the electronic voting system) but they are the manifistation of exactly what the authors of the Constitution warned the future about.
  I am not a Bible guy in the sense that I take it to be literally true, but I am spirtual. And connected.
  And beleive me when I say that Cheney is the most vile,dangerous,most untrustworthy human who lives on our planet today.
  He IS one of many snakes that we as upright-walkers have had to endure.
  You want truth??? You want justice??
  You want the whole world to get along like the Coke commercial? (I’d like to teach the world to sing…..you get it!!)
  Quit taking a fixed position. Everything is realitive. Think about circles.

• 84. phnx  |  December 9th, 2007 at 5:26 pm

  mitchie,

  It sounds as though you are seriously off your meds. You are a pointless waste of time.

• 85. mitche  |  December 9th, 2007 at 5:46 pm

  I take no meds. My brain controls my mind.
  What’s the matter? Can’t retort?
  Poor thing….
  It must hurt so bad to be so wrong.
  Unless you are to stupid to even be aware.

• 86. mitche  |  December 9th, 2007 at 5:51 pm

  http://www.crooksandliars.com/

• 87. AAR  |  December 9th, 2007 at 7:02 pm

  phnx,

  Mark and Matt should start cleaning up the worthless Liberal trash that’s piling up on this site… starting with mitche’s nonsensical comments… as well as USA and a few others.

  AAR

• 88. searp  |  December 10th, 2007 at 8:20 am

  People who support torture of detainees, specifically water boarding, are un-American authoritarians who don’t understand the meaning of freedom.

  Don’t give me all the crap about islamofascists or whatever joke of a term you use to describe our enemies. Been there, and the crazed people on this blog haven’t.

• 89. searp  |  December 10th, 2007 at 8:23 am

  Schieffer: “Is THAT our message to the world? That we are a government of laws except when it is inconvenient? If so, then what was done in the name of security has greatly harmed security. Weapons keep our enemies at bay, but our real security risks are whether the rest of the world comes to share our values, or the values of those who oppose us.”