Some Real Gun Control
December 11th, 2007 at 01:25am Mark Noonan
Its when you can aim steadily:
Jeanne Assam appeared before the news media for the first time Monday and said she “did not think for a minute to run away” when a gunman entered the New Life Church in Colorado Springs and started shooting.
There was applause as Assam spoke to reporters and TV cameras saying, “God guided me and protected me.”
New Life’s Senior Pastor Brady Boyd called Assam “a real hero” because Murray “had enough ammunition on him to cause a lot of damage.”
When asked by a reporter if she felt like a hero, Assam said, “I wasn’t just going to wait for him to do further damage.”
“I give credit to God,” she said.
Had there been an armed teacher at Columbine, there might have been less dead people. Had there been armed students at Virginia Tech, there might have been less dead people. And so on - if honest citizens are armed, know how to use their weapons, and keep strong their faith, they will prevent all manner of outrages from occuring or, if they do happen, they will greatly limit the scope of the evil. It is a foolish cowardice which ever said that the way to handle gun crime is to prohibit the citizens from carrying weapons. This tragic incident in Colorado may have one good result - it buries forever the concept that only the police should have guns.
Entry Filed under: Justice System, Social Issues
46 Comments
1. searp | December 11th, 2007 at 4:58 am
Lotta ifs there, Mark: “if honest citizens are armed, know how to use their weapons, and keep strong their faith”
Unfortunately, in the real world people are people, with all kinds of faults, chief among them a tendency to not control themselves or invest a lot of time training if they don’t have to train.
They get upset or mad. They have poor eyesight and shaky hands. They drink or otherwise lose their inhibitions. They are scared of.. whatever.
Right now, having never shot a handgun, I could walk into a local store and buy an armory.
The net result is that study after study shows that in real world the possession of a weapon for self defense is more likely to result in a tragedy than improved personal security.
Think of your example: clearly, a bad person had weapons. No sense thinking good people having weapons cancels this out, bad people may be killed but they also kill.
Now pick a random restaurant, fill it with a random selection of people, and give each person a handgun. I personally would never, ever, go to that restaurant. Who the heck knows? I don’t know those people, their level of training, their mood, or anything else. All I know is that there is a room full of people that could kill me.
2. bozo the neoclown | December 11th, 2007 at 5:45 am
“Had there been an armed teacher at Columbine, there might have been less dead people. ”
Most likely, there would have been more dead people when that “armed teacher” started firing at anything that moved due to a) not being trained in crisis intervention and b) fear.
Your statement is as preposterous as saying “let’s arm the student population to avoid more blooshed”
3. keef--Not Cruisin--Yet!!! | December 11th, 2007 at 5:46 am
I personally would never, ever, go to that restaurant. Who the heck knows? I don’t know those people, their level of training, their mood, or anything else. All I know is that there is a room full of people that could kill me.
You should probably stay locked up in mommy’s basement then, because you’d be shocked at how many people carry weapons these days, legally or illegally.
No sense thinking good people having weapons cancels this out, bad people may be killed but they also kill.
Soooo, in your view, guns should be outlawed? Pardon the redundancy, but “If you outlaw guns, then…”
You know the rest, and it’s true. And states where CCW laws are in effect have less violent crime, so your argument is lame…
4. plainjane | December 11th, 2007 at 7:42 am
Republicans, they care about life for approximately nine months from conception after that their belief system shifts to Darwin’s evolutionary “survival of the fittest.”
5. neocon | December 11th, 2007 at 7:47 am
The incessant whining from our lefties on this thread is hysterical. It also points to their complete lack of faith in the general populace.
Searp seems to think that the mere ownership of a gun could cause someone to lose all senses and just start shooting randomly.
My sister lives in Montana, a state with one of the highest percentage of gun ownership yet the one of the lowest murder rates.
Liberals, please explain that.
6. OhioOrrin | December 11th, 2007 at 8:07 am
gun bans are like fences…they only dissuade honest ( & mentally stable) folks.
but for the politician, bans are an ez “feel good” (non)fix.
7. Retired Spook | December 11th, 2007 at 8:19 am
Liberals, please explain that.
They can’t, Neo; it doesn’t fit their template. The single greatest fault that I find with Liberals is that they think the world cannot survive without them, that anyone who thinks differently than they do is not only wrong but stupid and incompetent. They have no faith in their fellow man. It’s why so much of Liberal thought is static while Conservatives generally think in more dynamic terms.
Back in the late 70’s and early 80’s my office was located in a not-so-nice area, and I often went back to the office in the evening. I had a concealed carry permit, and my weapon of choice was a Browning Hi-Power 9mm semi-auto. It held 13 rounds in the magazine plus one in the chamber, making it a formidable anti-gang weapon. I was well trained in it’s use, could disassemble it in the dark, and even with fixed sights, I could consistently score in the 225-240 range (out of 300) at the local police range or the range where my reserve unit performed our annual qualifications.
Twice during that time I was confronted by individuals who intended me bodily harm. In both instances the mere presence of a firearm was enough to get them to change their mind, but I never had any doubt that I could have shot someone if the circumstances warranted.
8. neocon | December 11th, 2007 at 8:39 am
Good story Spook.
I wonder if a ban on guns would include the Democrats body guards. Sen. Webb might not like that, nor would Rosie.
Or are they excluded?
9. Retired Spook | December 11th, 2007 at 9:20 am
The net result is that study after study shows that in real world the possession of a weapon for self defense is more likely to result in a tragedy than improved personal security.
Searp, could you share a few of those studies with us.
10. Kahn | December 11th, 2007 at 9:33 am
In Virginia you need to prove competency with a firearm to get a Permit to carry a concealed handgun. My DD-214 did that.
The permit excludes, schools, churches, and establishments that serve liquor. Note, these crazed killers tend to attack schools and churches, and many shootings and stabbings occur at bars.
What does that tell you? It tells you that EVERY gun at a school, church, or bar is illegal NOW. Yet thats where the shootings occur. The ONLY people (outside Police) armed at a school, a church, in a bar, and in Washington DC are criminals. ONLY criminals have guns. ALL gun crimes in those places are with illegally possessed weapons. ALL of them.
Here is another interesting note or two. NO registered machine gun has ever been used in a crime. Not one. Some illegally modified ones have (remember the big shoot out in California?) been used. Bot absolutely no registered ones have.
No .50 caliber rifles have ever been used in a crime - Yet California has made them illegal. Not one of these, ever, anywhere has been used in a crime. They are huge, and heavy, and expensive. Yet California pandered to the hysterical anti-gun lobby. What has that accomplished. Well, still none has been used in a crime. Gun makers came out with a new caliber just under .50. And the premier gun maker in this field (Barret) has refused to sell to or service the weapons of any California law enforcement agency.
Finally - places with high legal gun ownership and particularly high concealed carry permits have far LESS gun crimes and far less shooting than areas with severe restrictions or outright bans. You see, in THOSE areas other people BESIDES the criminals have guns. And criminals being typically cowards don’t like that.
But why let facts sway your opinions?
11. Eric T | December 11th, 2007 at 10:36 am
Kahn,
Makes some points that liberals won’t be able to debunk. Registered NFA weapons are not ever used in crimes. I see these school shootings and want them to stop, because they are followed with calls for more gun control. I love my hobby which is hunting, shooting, collecting guns. I have all kinds of guns. The D.C gun ban is there to protect politicans, kind of like the no fly zone. I wish they would drop the cases. I think that challenging that could jeopordize gun ownership across the country. Illegals and foreigners visiting on a visa should not be allowed to own guns. ( They could rent them at a range for entertainment, but not own them.) What I see that may help eliminate high school shootings is education. The schools should be teaching the students about gun saftey and gun laws. In my state a person that wants a handgun must be 21 yrs old. So a high school student that has a handgun is breaking the law and the school should be offering a reward to students who bringforth info of fellow students that possess them and carry them around.
I never want to see gun rights erased in our country. When people are Seeing multi-instances of homocidal manics rampaging and wasting innocent people that could make the people who are for more gun control seem like a better choice and we KNOW that eliminating freedom is never a better choice. So we have to offer solutions to the problem that will work. Here are my ideas and I would rather they start with education and enforcement of the current laws. But to stop school shootings my plan doesn’t erase freedom. If they raised the age from 18 years old for rifles in most states to 21 or even 25. I don’t know many 18 or even 21 yr old kids that are mature in there thinking. A typical 18-21 yr old still lives at home with parents and doesn’t know responsiblity, goofing off with friends and hanging out all day. I think they are just to young to have access to an SKS or something like that, Maybe they could get a blackpowder rifle at 18. or a single shot. Of course military personel should be allowed to keep their upper receivers when discharged regardless of age. What do any of you readers think? The mall shooter was 19.
12. InDaVa | December 11th, 2007 at 10:44 am
“My sister lives in Montana, a state with one of the highest percentage of gun ownership yet the one of the lowest murder rates.
Liberals, please explain that.”
Montana has a low population and people are really spread out through the state. Look at the murder rates per population. It’s the illegal firearms and weak laws that make it possible for someone to obtain a gun easily that is the problem.
13. js | December 11th, 2007 at 10:50 am
>>>>>The net result is that study after study shows that in real world the possession of a weapon for self defense is more likely to result in a tragedy than improved personal security.<<<<
Study after study? Is this like the “studies” they used to tell us that spanking kids should be illegal?
Ill keep my weapon, thank you.
14. bagni | December 11th, 2007 at 12:20 pm
markballistic…..and spook
i agree with you gun geeks on this subject
if one is thoroughly trained they should be able to carry a weapon
i myself strongly believe in the right to bear arms
and can fire one proficiently
on a side note…..
the security guard/ex-cop assam was a hero
she saved many lives
the eerie part?
her description of the event and her guidance by god
sounded like verbage coming from an extremist
i know it didn’t mean to come out that way
at least i’m hoping it didn’t mean to come out that way
15. TiredofLibBullShit | December 11th, 2007 at 12:21 pm
“It’s the illegal firearms and weak laws that make it possible for someone to obtain a gun easily that is the problem.”
It’s mentality such as this is the problem. “Illegal guns” and “weak laws” - bullshit terms. In Washington D.C. one of the cities with the most restrictive gun control - ALL GUNS are illegal, but it has the highest crime rates with criminals using guns. Your average criminal does not go to the local sporting goods store to buy his next hit piece. Criminals are called criminals because they do not obey the law to begin with. NO LAW WILL STOP A CRIMINAL FROM OBTAINING GUNS. Criminals get their guns from theft or from other criminals.
Perhaps, instead of getting guns off the streets by restricting you average law abiding citizen, we should get the criminals off the streets - It’s the early releasing of criminals and the “reforming criminal” mentality that is the problem.
“No sense thinking good people having weapons cancels this out, bad people may be killed but they also kill.”
First off this statement makes no sense. Secondly, the incident in Colorado proved that a good person having a firearm cancelled out the bad one using a firearm.
Liberals are afraid of guns for one reason only. The guarantee of the 2nd Amendment to be able to own firearms to SECURE A FREE STATE from enemies from without and also enemies form within - perhaps in the form of an oppressive government - the type of government some wish to force on the American people - you know that womb to the tomb type of geovernment where people have “freedom” only in their brainwashed little minds.
Now, I am not advocating taking out the little oppressive bastards…….
16. phnx | December 11th, 2007 at 12:23 pm
InDaVa,
He did mention rate. How about another example…Philadelphia, its more dangerous than Baghdad, despite strong gun laws.
How about DC?, Detroit, New Orleans, Baltimore?
Compare those cities with Dallas where concealed carry is legal.
17. Kahn | December 11th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
InDaVa - low murder rate, not just low number of murders.
Yet EVERY murder, and armed robbery, and assault with a firearm in DC is committed with an illegally possessed weapon. EVERY SINGLE ONE. No civilian ownership of a functional weapon is allowed. Only criminals have guns in DC.
http://mpdc.dc.gov/mpdc/cwp/view,a,1237,Q,547431,mpdcNav_GID,1549,mpdcNav,|,.asp#trends
This applies to everyone except Democrat Senators from Virginia named Webb who can ignore the laws at will.
The mall shooter was 19, and had a STOLEN (illegally possessed) firearm. But is someone like me (who packs) or like the guard at the church was there, they might have shot him and lessened the damage he did.
Look at where the worst mass murders occur - schools. Guns ar e illegal there already, works great huh?
You liberals are arguing against a Bill of Rights mandated civil right. I believe that invalidating those rights places the Constitution in jeopardy.
I actually don’t give a damn what guns and what kind of magazines you think I should own. I don’t care what you think are valid reasons. It’s not your business. What part of “… shall not be abridged” means it’s OK to abridge?
But I DO wish that Democrats, or Republicans, or whoever are FOR restriction of this civil right would say so loudly and clearly so we could vote against them. No argument that that is still legal, is there?
18. Eric T | December 11th, 2007 at 1:18 pm
I have the CCW. I deliver gasoline, the oil companies won’t let us carry into the terminals. I’m up in Detroit. Some areas in Detroit are loaded up with gangs, drugs. One of the tanker drivers I see every day, was recently shot by a guy holding up the store. This could have been prevented had the oil companies not have prohibited us from carrying when we drive the tanker up to the rack to reload or back in the refinery. Some of the areas up here are real bad. Hard Drug use and poverty cause I think, alot of the crime. Gangster rap music that glamorizes drive-by shootings, violent video games, and a culture of slasher movies, May lead kids to believing violence is OK.
They need to know that is not reality. And that is why the maturity level of the gun owners is what I think is key to Keeping guns out of criminals hands. This needs to remain the focus. People need to be able to defend themselves. The lady that stopped the shooter in the church is a hero. The libs would rather have a lady strangled and raped in an alley, than be able to defend herself. We can’t trust the libs with the issue of guns, this in itself is a case for a conservative President.
19. Kahn | December 11th, 2007 at 1:31 pm
EricT, I think they should remove the practice of not showing the dead and mutilated bodies of murder and homicide on TV.
That 19 year old in Nebraska - what if he’d seen a picture of the blown apart head of the VT killer or others? A blood covered, brain splattered, crap evacuated corpse is NOT glamorous.
Same thing for car accidents. Show the kids at drivers education what a twisted dead kid their age looks like. Pump the smell of rot into the room when you do it. Not just for a second or two, get them to think about it, puke a little bit.
I think its the glamorized removal from reality that drives this stuff. Car accidents, murder, and suicide is not glamorous. It’s stupid and nasty.
20. Eric T | December 11th, 2007 at 1:31 pm
Kahn makes the most important point, Some democrats are progun, some Republicans are anti-gun. The gun Ban folks need to be voted out. Maybe their views will be appreciated in England, Iran, or China. That is where they need to go to be politicans. I always make sure to keep an eye on how they vote. When they vote against freedom they need to be exposed and removed. Hillary is one that has always voted against freedom. She doesn’t deserve a chance at the White House with a voting record like she has when it comes to Freedom and the 2nd Amendment.
21. Eric T | December 11th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
Kahn
drunk drivers kill far more people than these random shooters. Your Idea is good, more training with the graphic pictures, The images would stay embedded in the minds of young drivers or gun owners. If a politican started a ban on alcohol, automobiles or niteclubs, people would riot in the streets. We need to get loud about these gun ban people and keep them away from power. We can solve the problems without their help.
22. SteaM | December 11th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
My question is why did he do what he did?
The story I read this morning said he was very angry with the Church.
What happened?
It seems to me that the traditional Christian Conservative would forgive him, pray for his family and those who were killed, thank the woman for her self-defense and saving people from dying, and then discuss what happened.
But I am confused, you conservatives here simply want all of the Church members to have guns. No questions asked.
23. Kahn | December 11th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
SteaM - You want to lie or you want to talk about what happened?
We had a pretty good string of honest posts going there. Look who broke the chain.
I’m reminded of the kids at hopelessly liberal Penn State who dressed like shot up Virginia Tech students and posted the pictures on the web. Only supreme ignorance would lead to this.
Liberal are good at that, making decisions in ignorance.
SteaM, ever hunted, shot or owned a firearm? Ever been to hunter safety? Ever been in the military?
Or do you think watching CSI is about as real as you want to get?
One thing, your ignorance is not reason enough for me yo give up my arms.
24. SteaM | December 11th, 2007 at 2:19 pm
Kahn, how am I lying?
25. Kahn | December 11th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
you conservatives here simply want all of the Church members to have guns. No questions asked.
26. Kahn | December 11th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
If “liberals” REALLY want to lessen gun violence, why not just make it illegal for blacks and Hispanics to own them? Maybe not all Hispanics everywhere - but certainly blacks?
Now before you get all fired mad, the arguments you were going to fire back with about how not all blacks are criminals etc. apply to everyone.
And note - the current gun ban’s DO apply disproportionately to blacks. The above actually IS your defacto (look it up) policy. Could I refuse to hire someone from DC? Refuse to sell a house to someone from DC? Why not?
27. Rana Quijotesca | December 11th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
For the record, I am a member of a facebook group called “Students for concealed carry on campus”.
I definitely think that we should be able to carry weapons, but I also think that you should have to have a clean criminal record and submit to a psychological evaluation before you are able to purchase a gun or receive a concealed-carry permit. I also agree with a waiting period, so “crimes of passion” would be somewhat alleviated.
And when you guys appeal to strict text of the amendment, keep in mind the restrictions on speech and religion that are tacitly accepted by the population (such as “Free Speech Zones” and the inability to perform human sacrifices in religious ceremonies).
28. Rana Quijotesca | December 11th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
Oh… and the security guard was a former cop, and she credits God for her accuracy? Then again, if she isn’t accurate unless God guides her, it might explain why she’s a former cop.
29. eric | December 11th, 2007 at 3:19 pm
Rana,
In Texas, where I live, the department of public safety does not just hand out conceal carry permits. One can be deemed ineligible for a variety of reasons. For example, one is ineligible if he or she is not a legal resident of Texas for the six-month period preceding the date of application, not at least 21 years of age, has been convicted of a felony, is charged with the commission of a Class A or Class B misdemeanor, is a fugitive from justice for a felony or a Class A or Class B misdemeanor, is a chemically dependent person, is incapable of exercising sound judgment with respect to the proper use and storage of a handgun, etc.
For the record, I have never hunted. I have never killed anything larger than a spider. However, I own several guns and I will use them to defend my home or person if necessary. Now that my wife has become a citizen, we are both going to apply for conceal carry permits.
30. Kahn | December 11th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
eric,
As I explained above, I have the permit. But I rarely carry. It’s just to big of a responsibility sometimes. Thats the thing, it’s a right, but it comes with a responsibility.
I end up keeping everything locked in the safe most of the time.
31. eric | December 11th, 2007 at 4:13 pm
Kahn,
No worries. I was just trying to show Rana, that there already exists a fair amount of gun control and Texas does not give out conceal carry permits to just anyone who applies.
The responsibility is what has made me slow to apply for a permit.
32. bongoman | December 11th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
Whoa, hold on a second. Turns out the gunman’s autopsy revealed self-inflicted gunshot as the cause of death. So he shot himself.
33. Kahn | December 11th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
bongo… after he was wounded. Finish it. A half truth is the same as a lie.
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. (AP) - The man who killed four people at a church and missionary training center was killed by a bullet he fired himself, though he was hit by shots from a church security officer, police said Tuesday.
So she did really good. Stopped the attack without killing.
34. Eric T | December 11th, 2007 at 4:39 pm
The libs seem hell bent on saying how wrong it was that she acknowledged God. They may liked the story more if the hero came out and said ” Darwin and Karl Marx guided my bullet.” The libs just hate God, you see it everytime. Do you know why? I think they want so much control and power they want to be able to control our thoughts.
35. SteaM | December 11th, 2007 at 5:33 pm
Eric,
You are paranoid.
36. bagni | December 11th, 2007 at 6:05 pm
rana
excellent thought
god may have guided her
but firing thousands of rounds at the range
steadied her aim
no matter what
good she was there
bottom line
carrying a gun is a big responsibility
not sure most humans are capable
without the training and background checking
37. keef--Not Cruisin--Yet!!! | December 11th, 2007 at 7:22 pm
Republicans, they care about life for approximately nine months from conception after that their belief system shifts to Darwin’s evolutionary “survival of the fittest.”
I dunno, jane–some of us Republicans probably wish your parents had been a bit more “pro-choice…”
38. Ricorun | December 11th, 2007 at 7:33 pm
keef, to quote the words of Gen. Washington just before embarking across the Delaware… “GET ON THE DAMNED BOAT!” Lol!
Merry Christmas, and I hope you have a great cruise.
39. Casper | December 11th, 2007 at 7:43 pm
Rico,
I was going to give you a bad time about misquoting Washington, when it hit me that he probably did say that, and probably more than once. LOL
40. Ricorun | December 11th, 2007 at 7:54 pm
Casper, I admit I made the quote up. So shoot me. Lol!
I had to add that last part because otherwise this comment would have been off topic. I didn’t really mean it.
By the way, I made that fake 100 buck bet because Franklin’s picture is on the $100 bill. It was a subtle hint.
41. FmrMarine | December 11th, 2007 at 8:01 pm
In Fla. we have a good ccw law.
However, as in other states there are places we can not carry.
Those places I always carry a pocket sized can of pepper/mace spray, backed up with a 4″ folding buck knife in a sheath on the belt. Together this will get one out of 99.9% of close up dangers.
There were moans of doom and gloom - shootouts in the streets, road rage ending up in gunfights etc etc etc. when the easy ccw was announced.
Of course NONE of that BS happened, and the crime rate actually declined.
Only once years ago, did I have to threaten deadly force to an intoxicated group. The mere pulling back of a coat exposing a .45 had a remarkable chilling effect on their aggressiveness, and we all went home safely.
42. Casper | December 11th, 2007 at 8:01 pm
Rico,
“I made that fake 100 buck bet because Franklin’s picture is on the $100 bill. It was a subtle hint.”
Got me on that one. I had forgotten he was on the $100 bill. Guess as a teacher, i just don’t see enough of them.
If you missed the actual quote, it was #45 on the Congress Was Briefed on Waterboarding in 2002 thread.
43. Casper | December 11th, 2007 at 8:07 pm
For the record, I’m against gun control, but I’m not sure I’m ready to arm teachers.
44. FmrMarine | December 11th, 2007 at 8:34 pm
casp
I dont believe in arming just any teacher.
Many teachers are former military, and some former police.
All should be TRAINED, and comfortable, and ABLE to handle the responsibility of ccw.
With that said a friend of mine - a teacher, and a reserve policeman walked into the middle of an armed robbery at a 7-11. The perp waved his 9mm around stating someone was “going to hell tonight”.
He was RIGHT !
My teacher friend sent him there straight away.
45. Casper | December 11th, 2007 at 8:57 pm
FmrMarine,
“I dont believe in arming just any teacher.”
I don’t either, and who knows, with the right training it might work.
46. Kahn | December 11th, 2007 at 10:12 pm
Casper - “For the record, I’m against gun control, but I’m not sure I’m ready to arm teachers.”
Well not so long as their mostly liberal Democrats.