Lawrence O’Donnell Rips Romney’s Faith
December 15th, 2007 at 08:44am Mark Noonan
Rather strongly:
Romney felt politically forced to give the speech specifically because evangelical Christians seem to know a little too much about the faith of his fathers. Many evangelicals believe and have said publicly that Mormonism–contrary to Romney’s assertions–is not a Christian religion but an abomination of Christianity. Here’s a sampling of why: Mormons believe that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri; that Jews were the first people in America; that Indians descended from Jews and are a lost tribe of Israel; that Jesus came to America; that after the next coming of Christ (which will be the second or third, depending on how you count his trip to America), the world will be ruled for a thousand years from Jerusalem and Missouri; and to answer Mike Huckabee’s now famous question, yes, they believe “Jesus and Lucifer were brothers, in the sense of both being spiritually begotten by the Father.”
Mr. O’Donnell is not Mormon - he claims to be Catholic, and has this to say on the subject:
This week, I went on Hugh Hewitt’s radio show so Hugh could attack me for attacking his favorite candidate. It was a good conversation. Hugh began by asking if I am Catholic. I gave what sounded like a very Clintonian answer that depends on what you mean by the word Catholic. I explained that there are Catholics–very few–who, Romney style, adhere to everything their church says. Then there are American Catholics, most of whom believe the church is wrong about abortion and wrong about the death penalty and used to think the Pope was wrong about the war in Iraq being a mistake but have now switched back to the Pope’s side on that one. I don’t feel empowered to say Catholics like that are not Catholics. Once we got past that, Hugh asked if the Catholic Church is wrong to not allow women priests. I said, yes, the faith of my fathers is wrong about that. I then happily admitted to many failings and evils in the Catholic Church and in past Popes.
Very few who adhere to all of Church teaching? I don’t know how O’Donnell would know such a thing - but he would be correct if he stated that a lot of Catholics disagree with what they think is Church teaching. The universal about criticism (internal or external) of Catholic teaching is that the critics are uniformly ignorant of just what it is the Church teaches. Mr. O’Donnell, a nominal Catholic, clearly has not bothered to learn what his own faith teaches - and yet he presumes to tell us what the Mormon faith teaches, and how it is a bad bunch of teaching. I make no presumptions about Mormonism - I don’t know enough about it to render judgement. Given that I am perfectly at home in Catholicism, I’ve no great desire to find out about the particulars of the Mormon faith - whatever their particular beliefs are, what I can see in action is people who have strong families, a strong sense of community, obey the laws and generally don’t cause a fuss, except when those well dressed young men come ring my doorbell at an invariably inconvenient time to try and convert me (a forlorn hope - though one day I hope to have time to speak to them, as the Catholic Church is always looking for converts).
I’ll bet a lot of money that Mr. O’Donnell never bothered to ask an orthodox Catholic priest just why women can’t become Catholic priests. If he had, he’d either no longer disagree with it, or he’d definitively state that he’s no longer Catholic (one is free to disagree with Church teaching - but once one knows exactly why a certain thing is taught then it becomes clear that it is integral to the entirety of the faith, and you can’t pick and choose what parts to believe…at that point, it is either time to cease being prideful, or time to find another religion). I’ll also bet that Mr. O’Donnell never went to committed Mormon and asked why this or that belief is held (or, probably in a lot of cases, whether or not Mormons even believe some of the things non-Mormons say they believe). Until a person has learned about a faith from the strongest exponents of that faith, then condemning any aspect of that faith is foolhardy in the extreme - Mr. O’Donnell seems to have more of a problem with people of faith rather than a problem with Romney’s Mormon faith; he states that no Catholic politician would ever get up and state a complete acceptance of all Church teachings. Of course, there already are such out there - and if I do decide to run for office, I will be glad to assert that I accept 100% of Church teaching on matters of faith and morals; but for Mr. O’Donnell, his claim is helpful because it allows him to condemn Romney’s assertion of full faith in the Mormon creed as either a lie, or proof that he’s an idiot.
We should never get into the act of criticising another’s religion - the peace of our democratic republic requires a certain reticence about some matters. As a Catholic, I naturally believe that Romney’s faith has got it wrong (while I’m not too familiar with Mormonism, one thing I do know is that they don’t believe in the Trinity - that, in and of itself, is sufficient for my purposes to know that Mormonism, whatever else it may be, isn’t the religion for me) - to put it completely clearly, as a Catholic, I hold that all non-Catholics have it wrong at least to some degree. I fully understand that my non-Catholic brothers and sisters feel the same about my Catholicism; and its all ok. In the end, God will set everything to rights and it will all be made clear to us. Meanwhile, as long as a faith doesn’t make a public nusiance of itself, it should be just left alone in our political discourse. Mormons are good people - good Americans; leave them be on the matter of their faith.
Entry Filed under: Campaign 2008, Religion, Republicans
20 Comments
1. neocon | December 15th, 2007 at 9:14 am
Ironic how those on the left feel comfortable to condemn a religion based on their perceptions of that religion rather than actions of that religion
How many Mormons have beheaded infidels?
And why isn’t the Faith of Democrats questioned? Obama and Oprah were thanking God the other day on stage, and asking God for His guidance. Obama has already spoken in front of many congregations asking them for their support. What do they believe?
2. phnx | December 15th, 2007 at 9:28 am
The MSM want the Republicans to debate this issue becasue its a trap. Republicans are making a very big mistake by permitting religion to be a central focus of the primary. Its one of the reasons why I will not vote for Huckabee.
Is there are moral decline in this country, yes, no doubt. Is it because of the secularization of the society, yes.
However, although I am a church going fundementalist conservative christian, I do not want a President who, in the words of Huchabee, feels it is his duty to “win back the country for Christ”.
Christ is a lot more powerful than the President, and He doesn’t need his help.
I want to know what the candidates positions are on the issues of immigration, taxes, the economy, education, and foreign policy.
I do not want to know, nor do I care, what his position is on Jesus, the trinity, the state of the dead, or any other doctrinal issue.
We are trying to elect a President not select a Pastor. If Republicans get caught up in a debate on religion, they are sure to loose the election.
3. neocon | December 15th, 2007 at 10:05 am
phnx,
Great post. And I can’t help but think the Dems are going down the wrong road again. Just as declaring the “war lost” earlier in the year only to be embarrased by current events, the Dems are again overlooking the fact that over 80% of Americans have Faith.
4. bagni | December 15th, 2007 at 10:23 am
markaligion
two points….
-mormons didn’t allow blacks to be ‘priests’ till 1978
-i agree with you that faith shouldn’t make a public nuisance of itself, you said “it should be left alone in our political discourse”
i’ve been reading your posts for quite some time now…are you turning over a new leaf????
because you weave religion and god into many of your political discourses?????
as usual…i’m confused
certainly neo will straighten me out……????
have a nice weekend!
5. neocon | December 15th, 2007 at 10:33 am
>>>>”We’re going to keep on praising together. I am confident that we can create a Kingdom right here on Earth.” - Barack Obama<<<<
bagni,
Your confusion is very obvious to all of us here at B4V.
I hope you enjoy and embrace Obamas Kingdom.
6. Eric T | December 15th, 2007 at 10:50 am
This is one match-up you wouldn’t expect to see in the ring: Hulk Hogan vs. Rosie O’Donnell.
At Thursday’s press day for his new show “American Gladiators,” Hogan was asked which celebrity he’d like to see a Gladiator pummel. His answer: “Without a doubt Rosie O’Donnell. Somebody needs to shut that big mouth up,” TMZ reported.
7. bagni | December 15th, 2007 at 10:55 am
neo
as you’ve pointed out
i have trouble fitting in on this planet
but
your comment about obama’s kingdom
has really confused me
i won’t vote for obama
though it sounds like you’ve rolled over?
cmon…….
curious…if election happened today
who would you vote for?
8. Ricorun | December 15th, 2007 at 1:25 pm
neocon: …the Dems are again overlooking the fact that over 80% of Americans have Faith.
If you look at where the money is going, that doesn’t appear to be the case. Though the overall numbers aren’t very big, so far this year the clergy has been donating more to Dems than Reps.
Also interesting is the fact that Barak Obama is leading the pack, followed by Hillary Clinton(!), with Romney a very distant third.
Who would have guessed that?
9. Christian Wright | December 15th, 2007 at 1:33 pm
Guys, you must know that Jesus never existed. He is just a metaphor for how good Jews are suppose to act.
Somehow that metaphor forked off into a different line of the same basic faith, the same way Islam forked off.
Remember, Jews, Christian, and Muslims all worship the same god: The God of Abraham.
Personally, I am putting my faith in the FSM. I like a god with a sense of humor.
10. Mark Noonan | December 15th, 2007 at 1:38 pm
bagni,
That isn’t what I said - I said “Meanwhile, as long as a faith doesn’t make a public nusiance of itself, it should be just left alone in our political discourse.” In other words, unless someone’s religion is advocating, say, beheading infidels, then it should be left alone in our political discourse.
11. Mark Noonan | December 15th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
Christian Wright,
It is a clear historical fact that Jesus existed and preached what is enclosed in the Gospel - as to whether or not you believe that he is what he says he is, that is up to you.
12. Mark Noonan | December 15th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
Ricorun,
And in 2006 it was the other way around - and it is only $633,000 so far in the 2008 cycle. That is less than a fraction of a drop in the bucket…an entirely meaningless stat - except that I’m rather shocked that anyone specific to a religious organization would give even a penny to a political campaign.
13. Mark Noonan | December 15th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
neocon,
I remember that quote from Obama - very close to Original Sin, that…he’s essentially saying we can be as gods, and make the Kingdom ourselves. Poor theology, that.
14. Thrower | December 16th, 2007 at 12:06 pm
Phnx wrote one of the best posts I’ve read on this board. I care very much about a President’s moral character, but it doesn’t matter to me on what that character is based. Equally important to me are intelligence, engagement and leadership ability. I hear too much talk about faith and not enough about issues in the Republican party. I think Romney is probably the most talented candidate in either party in a Presidential sense, but the focus on his religion instead of his qualifications will probably doom him.
15. Yeti | December 16th, 2007 at 12:50 pm
We call this discrimination…it’s such a contradiction in a nation founded on diversity, tolerance and religious freedom that so many have lost connection with our heritage by condemning those of other faiths as if to declare my version of the truth is now the state religion. What a sad truth.
16. djp | December 16th, 2007 at 12:53 pm
Mormons are good people - good Americans; leave them be on the matter of their faith.
Same can be said about muslims.
17. neocon | December 16th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
Thrower,
It’s the MSM’s obsession with Romneys faith, not Romney.
The MSM is out to paint all GOPers as right wing Christian radicals in their incessant effort to elect a Democrat. Edward Murrow is rolling over in his grave in embarassment at todays media. They’re shameful.
What they overlook are the Dem religious beliefs. Can you imagine if Huckabee had stated what Obama did?
18. Jeremiah | December 16th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
Same can be said about muslims.
You better check on that one.
~ Jeremiah
19. Thrower | December 16th, 2007 at 3:54 pm
I don’t deny that Romney would love the faith issue to go away Necoon, but don’t blame it on the MSM. Do you credit the MSM for sinking Kerry’s candidacy through its coverage of the Swift Boaters and flip flopping?
It is the Republican party that has made religion a political litmus test, and it has done so with the complicity of high profile evangelicals. Where Romney is vulnerable is on any careful examination of the unique tenets of the Mormon religion. Most mainstream Christians will not take kindly to the notion that the highest or “celestial” tier of heaven is reserved for Mormons, and that is by reference what Romney too believes.
20. phnx | December 17th, 2007 at 8:03 am
Thrower,
The MSM loves a train wreck, and that’s what Kerry was.
He could have immediately silenced the Swift Boat Vets by releasing ALL of his records, that is, if these records supported his story. Instead he tried to finesse the story, and dug himself deeper and deeper with every public pronouncment.
The fact that he has yet to release ALL of these records speaks volumes about his character, and that’s what did him in.
I credit Kerry for sinking his own ship.