US Birth Rate Way Up; MSM Waits to End of Story Before Giving Reason Why
January 16th, 2008 at 12:29am Mark Noonan
Oh, sure, they talk and talk and talk about it - and throw in the obligatory, “we can’t explain US higher birth rate than Europe because Europe has more ‘family friendly’ policies”, but the answer to the puzzle is at the bottom of the article:
There are regional variations in the United States. New England’s fertility rates are more like Northern Europe’s. American women in the Midwest, South and certain mountain states tend to have more children.
The influence of certain religions in those latter regions is an important factor, said Ron Lesthaeghe, a Belgian demographer who is a visiting professor at the University of Michigan. “Evangelical Protestantism and Mormons,” he said.
And where is religious observation weakest in the United States? Surprise, surprise, surprise - its New England! Now, why do religious people have more kids? The story suggests that it is a function of ignorance, poverty and lack of abortion access - which are monmentally stupid statements to make. Its hope - hope is what makes babies. When you have a worldview which includes hope in the life of the world to come, then having babies is a way cool thing to do. As an aside, I’ll bet my fellow Catholics had a bit to do with this bump in child birth…and not just my hispanic brothers and sisters! All I can say is that we’re having baptisms at a rapid clip at St. John Neumann parish - baptisms of children of every imaginable ethnic group. This, of course, would be more true of observant Catholics than of nominal Catholics.
A civilization cannot outlive its religious underpinnings - Europe and Canada are proof positive that when you cut off a society from its religious roots, that society starts to die. While birthrates are slightly rising in France (where there is a very large and very fertile Islamic minority), birthrates elsewhere in Europe are collapsing…no hope in the world to come, no motivation to even continue the species. Its really as simple as that.
Entry Filed under: Life Issues
48 Comments
1. Uncommon | January 16th, 2008 at 3:04 am
There is also proof that more educated people have less children. People who are educated tend to wait until they are established before having children. So a more educated populace would subsequently result in a lower birthrate. However you do have a point about religion affecting birthrates. Latin America is by far the most Catholic region in the world and also has one of the highest birthrates. Though it has little to do with hope and more to do with the fact that they blindly follow the Churches teaching that birth control should not be used. Also, a drop in birthrates also tends to do more with overpopulation than religion. Take Japan for instance, while still highly Buddhist and Shintoist, they have one of the lowest birthrates in the world due to population density. Also, the two most populace countries in the world, China and India, are more secular than not, are overcrowded, and still they over produce. To make a full circle back to my original point- I believe if you look at the statistics you will find that Europeans and Canadians are having children later in life and tend to be more educated and well off when they do. Though I do like the idea that religion (mainly Catholism) equates to producing like rabbits. Nice try.
2. jj | January 16th, 2008 at 3:22 am
Children are a blessing from God. I don’t have any children yet, but from what I have seen and heard children are the biggest blessing that you will ever have.
3. js | January 16th, 2008 at 6:50 am
Reality is, the more educated people get, the less they concentrate on religion. Its not that more educated people have less children, its that more educated people shun thier roots.
We all know that educated people are like evolution scientists. The more bones they dig up, or the more educated they are, the more confused the whole idea becomes, because its constantly changing to fit thier preconcieved idea of what religion is.
In the end, educated people are no different than anyone else. Moral bankruptcy doesnt come with a college degree!!
4. steveGA | January 16th, 2008 at 7:26 am
Mark,
How many children have you and your wife borne together?
5. liberalT | January 16th, 2008 at 7:39 am
umm Mark. Hope doesn’t make children. Take a look to the third world where birth rates are through the roof. Birth rates are are influenced by a host of social and economic factors. Its absolutely 100% true that birth rates among the poor are higher than among the rich. That is just an absolute and completely demonstrable fact. Its also true that birth rates are highly correlated to to religious beliefs and birth control availability.
I mean - these are all not some random rhetorical statements like the one that you make about hope - there are tons of statistics and studies which show that this is true. If you would really like me to I can point you to many studies.
You are truly a strange strange person
6. Joe | January 16th, 2008 at 8:11 am
Mark:
The story suggests that it is a function of ignorance, poverty and lack of abortion access - which are monmentally stupid statements to make.
The story doesn’t say anything of the sort.
It does suggest that:
So it is more of a cultural thing and with a large population of people from Latin and Central America where the CULTURAL attitude is to have large families, the birthrates are increasing.
Educated people may have fewer children because they’ve invested so much in getting that education that they need to concentrate more on making a career, paying off the school debt and living a good life. That includes men and women whereas so many fewer women had careers back in the early part of the 1900’s.
Don’t make this out as a full out attack on religion. Isn’t there better things to talk about?
7. Rana Quijotesca | January 16th, 2008 at 8:25 am
You know, many European countries have lower crime rates than the United States. Also, some (including Sweden) have higher standards of living than the United States. While I would not go so far as to say that life is “better” over there, to say that Europe is “dying” is some combination of short-sighted, stupid, and xenophobic.
Also, if more educated people tend to trend away from religion, then what does that say about religion?
8. jj | January 16th, 2008 at 8:42 am
Rana - Also, if more educated people tend to trend away from religion, then what does that say about religion - what are you implying? Are you saying Christianity is false?
9. Kahn | January 16th, 2008 at 8:52 am
Maybe it’s not just religion. It could reflect the general positive outlook on life outside liberal strongholds. Liberals after all love to wallow in misery.
10. Diane Tomlinson | January 16th, 2008 at 8:59 am
Kahn,
As susal you are wrong. The fecumdity of the human species has so very littel to do with political liberalism or conservatism for that matter and much more to do with how one approaches the cost or value of new human life. If one is religious new life has a higher value than childlessness. In poorer communities no matter what the political demographic sex is enetertainment that can lead to economically dire consequences. Combine religion and poverty and you get the American South and Sub Saharan Africa two of the fastest growing regions of the world where the undeducated and religious are breeding like flies.
It’s not about a political group wallowing in misery it’s about people with limited resources and even less education escaping misery by using sex as a diversion and justifying their actions though invoking religious adherence to being fruitful and multiplying.
11. Diane Tomlinson | January 16th, 2008 at 8:59 am
Too many typos I apologize, but I hope you get my points.
12. SEW | January 16th, 2008 at 9:05 am
The typos are bad, the content much worse.
13. SEW | January 16th, 2008 at 9:12 am
Diane stated “Combine religion and poverty and you get the American South and Sub Saharan Africa two of the fastest growing regions of the world where the undeducated and religious are breeding like flies.”
Liberal racism on display in the name of “the uneducated and religious”.
14. SEW | January 16th, 2008 at 9:14 am
Sorry, I meant to undeducated [sic].
15. js | January 16th, 2008 at 9:50 am
So if uneducated people have faith in God, and multiply, and educated people dont have faith in God, and dont multiply, doesnt that fit what the Bible tells us?
16. Sunny | January 16th, 2008 at 10:38 am
js, where in the Bible does it say one should not get an education? I have to admit that I do not study the Bible as much as I should, but I have never come across that guidence and instruction.
Mark, as I have pointed out before, the reason most married, responsible couples limit the size of their families is because they want to be able to afford to raise them properly. They want to be able to afford decent housing, medical care, educational opportunities, social activities - all the things a child needs to grow into a healthy and productive adult. Raising a child that will someday support him/herself and be an assett to society is the ultimate goal of most parents who accept the responsibility of raising children. How do you feel about those who bring children into this world without the ability to provide for them? And to the most important need of a child - the ability to love them. I have often wondered it it is really is a Christian act to bear children who are not wanted and cannot be taken care of. When children suffer from the lack of proper nutrition, medical care, housing, educational opportunities, even love because of immaturity and financial reasons etc., how does that enrich the family or our country? For those who do not children and haven’t a clue as to the time and energy to say nothing of the costs involved from conception until that person is able to support themselves really should not be involved in this discussion. Children are such a blessing, and when a couple decides to bring a new life into this world, they need to be ready for all that goes with that responsibility - maturity to put the needs of this child first and they need to be financial capable to support their child.
17. GOP4ME | January 16th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Oh man, can’t wait to read Diane’s vile, hateful, racist spew on this topic…
18. Kahn | January 16th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
Diane, well actually you are wrong. Recent polls show conservatives are happier than liberals.
Other than that, the liberal posts on this subject are just insane. Really - are you guys laughing like “muah ha ha” and stuff when you’re typing? Foam coming out the corners of you mouthes?
Just keep aborting you babies. We’ll win.
19. js | January 16th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
16. Sunny | January 16th, 2008 at 10:38 am
js, where in the Bible does it say one should not get an education? I have to admit that I do not study the Bible as much as I should, but I have never come across that guidence and instruction
—————————————
Thats a pretty dumb question Sunny. Do you think I said anything like that?
Do you think learning math would be against Religion? Why? Maybe its about the reality of learning, no? When a man says he has all knowledge, and certifies that God doesnt exist, was the man truely educated, or ignorant?
20. Tractatus | January 16th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
hope is what makes babies.
Thanks for the update from Abstinence-Only Land, Ralph Wiggum, but you are presumably aware that making babies is a physical process and not some ethereal abstraction, yes?
A civilization cannot outlive its religious underpinnings
Are you able to argue based off of anything other than wishful thinking?
By the way, why no post about the objectively pro-terrorist former Republican Congressman from Michigan? Haven’t received the talking points yet?
21. Mark Noonan | January 16th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
Diane,
Yes, I get your point - you think that some people are breeding like flies. Which is a disgusting way to view humanity. Really, start thinking first, then writing.
22. Mark Noonan | January 16th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
Brett,
And the stupidest thing in the whole, wide world? Condemning someone for an opinion based upon that person’s lack of personal experience with the issue.
Get over yourself.
23. Mark Noonan | January 16th, 2008 at 5:47 pm
Sunny,
You’ve got it wrong - if we all waited until everything was all set, we’d never do anything. If you have the children and you are in any way decent, you’ll make it work…my brother didn’t plan on having a child at 18, but a child he did have…and he just went an dealt with it as best he could. Things seem to have worked out pretty well.
It is the voice of the coward who says, “wait” - just go it. Waiting gets you nowhere - you are not promised tomorrow, and you only have today for sure. Coldly state that you’ll wait five years more before you get married and/or have a child? You might be dead in four…heck, God forbid, you might be dead tomorrow…and there are all your careful plans for the future.
Life is to be lived, not planned.
24. Mark Noonan | January 16th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
Rana
If you don’t replace yourself, then you will die out - period. End of argument. Europeans have birth rates below replacement level…they are dying, and there’s an end on it.
25. bagni | January 16th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
mark-baby…..
i was digging reading this discussion/thread
thinking about your opening ‘hope’ blurb
and the counterpoints
nice work…..
then i read you dont’ have kids?
kablowie…..
you killed my point-counterpoint buzz
and then your lame excuses buried it
bad dog…..
26. Uncommon | January 16th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
Education doesn’t necessarily lead away from God… my wife is her final semester for her B.A, has a 4.0, and her minor is Theology. Of course she attends a Catholic college but the point is, being educated does not lead away from God. What is this contention from Mark about not planning for the future - “Just Do It” sounds like a Nike commercial not a philosophy for life. Most people are reasonably certain that they will die from old age and most do so to suggest that planning is unwarranted because we could “die tomorrow” is beyond absurd. Finally, where is this proof that Europe and Canada “are dying”. As far as I know Japan has the lowest birthrate in the world and while they are not dying off by any means they are having a hard time finding new workers to replace those that are/will be retiring. The only way a population could die off is if their death rate was higher than their birth rate. Oh and I know this claim is BS because I just finished taking a Cultural Geography class which examines this dynamic and there is absolutely no proof that the European population is not growing. Once again, nice try.
27. Kahn | January 16th, 2008 at 8:37 pm
Brett - well, you help make my “crazy angry liberal” point. Thanks. Now go wipe the foam off.
28. js | January 16th, 2008 at 9:04 pm
Some folks on this post have the class of vermin.
What is a family? Is it a college degree, or a plan that write down that you make to have kids? Not. Even the low class vermin cant make that a reality.
People try to rationalize love, but love is not a rational thing. An old saying was women are ruled from the heart, and men are ruled by logic. Not anymore, not in this politically correct society.
We are given a chance at love, and in love, we find the greatest reward, the children that fill our lives with happiness and joy. For thousands of years we have have children without being rich, but we truely were wealthy. Not, we are rich, buy our lives are empty, our families shrink, our real wealth, the love that we find in families, is diminished.
The most valuable thing, and we dont stand up and fight for it. Our schools are playgrounds for sexual deviants, our educational system teaches them that its ok.
The gifts we are given by God, we go to a clinic, and abort them. God is not a convenient thing, we curse and despise Him because we feel guilt, and rightly so.
So what is it that this education is good for, if the fruit of its tree only brings our destruction? When 5 of your siblings ended up in an abortion clinic, will you learn the real value of this education? Will you blame God, or your parents? What is the real reason why?
29. Decidenator | January 16th, 2008 at 9:41 pm
Mark said:
“hope is what makes babies”
That’s right. The “hope” goes into the, you know, the female parts, and then it finds an egg, and 9 months later a baby is born.
Thanks again for your excellent grasp of science.
30. liberalT | January 17th, 2008 at 12:37 am
Mark doesn’t believe in facts. This is why he argues that “hope” causes babies. God - what a tool. The same man who went on and on about how we shouldn’t throw around meaningless words like Obama’s hope - keeps a blog called “blogs for victory”. Supports the “war on terror”. Apparently Mark doesn’t have any hope - because he doesn’t have any children.. Ahh what irony huh…Sometimes I think Mark is setting us all up but then I realize that sadly no, he is serious
31. Mark Noonan | January 17th, 2008 at 12:39 am
liberalT,
Its really rather sad that you can’t grasp a basic concept like this…those liberal parents who educated you, did they ever take you past the third grade?
32. Mark Noonan | January 17th, 2008 at 12:42 am
js,
The foaming-at-the-mouth reaction of our liberals to this thread shows the level of pain and guilt they suffer because of their worldview…and their inability to grasp the main line of the argument shows the intellectual difficiency of these self-proclaimed “realists”. I don’t like to call people stupid…but I’m losing IQ points in reading the liberal comments here…
33. liberalT | January 17th, 2008 at 8:23 am
Mark - it is not that I “can’t grasp” the concept. It is rather simple. I understand your point that you are hypothesizing that when people feel that there is more hope in the world they are more likely to have children. But here is the thing - there is absolutely no empirical data to back up that proposition. First of all it is horribly over simplified - I am sure that there are all sorts of reasons social, economic, religious, and so forth. The world is a very complex place with very different situations.
What I can say is that that there is a lot of data that does NOT support your position in a lot of places in the world. Birth rates among the poor in south america, africa, and india are super high. One notable cause to this is - unfortunately - the desire to produce labor to support the family. The thing is - this isn’t just some random thought its supported by hundreds of years worth of data. Another notable cause is mortality rate. In places where children die because of lack of nutrition or proper medicine people tend to have more children for the simple fact that more of die - as horrible as that is.
I am not sure how you can deny that religion and birth control don’t have anything to do with birth rates. Again this is something that is supported by huge amounts of data - religions that don’t believe in contraception tend to have larger families. Is that some big surprise to you really? I mean - that mormons and catholics tend to have larger families? I suppose you will argue that has nothing to do with birth control?
Its not that I don’t grasp something Mark - your argument is so remarkably simple its impossible not to grasp. What is the case is that you refuse to believe or analyze any data that you don’t like. Rather you think up elaborate and strange reasons why you can ignore it. And the question remains - if you are so hopefull and hope causes chilren - why no children?
34. js | January 17th, 2008 at 9:17 am
Its not a case of if the think they grasp the concept, as much as it is if the live in its spirit Mark.
While the profess themselves to be wise, they expose themselves as fools.
Take LiberalT for example. He chastises you for not having facts, as does brett. Reality?
Mass. is very much anti-Christian. Its about the only state in the Union that allows homosexuals, termed as vile affections in the New Testament. Any State that defies the basic precepts of the Bible is not too high on the congregation list.
Here they sit, nitpicking about some spec they see in your characture, while they, themselves hide thier sins from the world.
No, its not a good thing to throw pearls before the swine, they only trample them into the ground Mark. But you are right.
35. js | January 17th, 2008 at 9:19 am
Its not a case of if the think they grasp the concept, as much as it is if the live in its spirit Mark.
While the profess themselves to be wise, they expose themselves as fools.
Take LiberalT for example. He chastises you for not having facts, as does brett. Reality?
Mass. is very much anti-Christian. Its about the only state in the Union that allows homosexuals to marry, even when such behavior is termed as “vile affections’ and “abominations” in the New and Old Testament. Any State that defies the basic precepts of the Bible is not too high on the congregation list.
Here they sit, nitpicking about some spec they see in your characture, while they, themselves hide thier sins from the world.
No, its not a good thing to throw pearls before the swine, they only trample them into the ground Mark. But you are right.
36. Rana Quijotesca | January 17th, 2008 at 9:19 am
I’ve never heard of a more logically inconsistent thing… full of hope, but with a persecution complex?
[…]That most risky and volatile of all things— a self-pitying majority
—Christopher Hitchens
Mark–you know… as a voting block… Catholics are more liberal… right?
37. js | January 17th, 2008 at 10:50 am
Liberal Catholics have substantially departed from traditional Catholicism, and one might say from traditional Christianity as a whole. While liberals differ among themselves in the degree to which they depart from classical Catholicism, like their Protestant counterparts they have conceded much to the rationalistic unbelief so prevalent in Western culture since the eighteenth-century Enlightenment period. They have in effect replaced the Bible and church authority with the authority of human reason - [Modernism]. Many liberal Catholic scholars, such as the German scholar Hans Kung, have questioned the infallibility of the pope, church councils, and the Bible. Others, going farther, have clearly abandoned traditional Christological beliefs and the miracles of the New Testament, and have forsaken almost completely the orthodoxy of the ecumenical creeds. Liberals also question the ecclesiastical practice of an exclusively male priesthood, and many have cast off the church’s teaching regarding such moral issues as birth control, abortion, and homosexuality. Some within the liberal camp have been strongly affiliated with liberation theology, especially in Latin America. Liberation theology interprets the gospel in terms of liberation from poverty and social oppression, and the reconstruction of society — usually along Marxist lines. Catholics who embrace liberation theology often show an amazing disregard of traditional doctrinal issues.
http://withchrist.org/catholic.htm
38. Diane Tomlinson | January 17th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Yes, I get your point - you think that some people are breeding like flies. Which is a disgusting way to view humanity. Really, start thinking first, then writing.– Mark Noonan
Well it’s on now isn’t it?
Not. I always think Noonan that’s what separates journalists from people who want to get paid for going along with what people feel nostalgic about. People with less education coupled with deeply held traditional religious beliefs have always had more children and yes the analogy is a harsh one but it got your attention didn’t it?
Here’s the problem Noonan, the CHILDREN of these ignorant thumpers, whether they thump the Bible or the Qur’an tends to gravitate away from both the ignorance and the tradition unless they live in a place like the Sudan as opposed to South Carolina. It’s those living breathing kids that you don’t care about because they aren’t a political hot button issue having left the womb that get to make the future my friend. Those kids when they become adults get to keep the Faith but temper it with education. Religion plus nothing is a roll of craps just like abstinence only you are fighting the one thing you Short Lives just cannot seem to get enough of, –human nature.
39. Diane Tomlinson | January 17th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Diane stated “Combine religion and poverty and you get the American South and Sub Saharan Africa two of the fastest growing regions of the world where the undeducated and religious are breeding like flies.”
Liberal racism on display in the name of “the uneducated and religious”.–SEW
SEW,
If calling them as I see them is liberal racism then I am just gonna have to be a liberal racist. So since we are calling names I can be a liberal/defeatist-lesbian/dyke-prochoice/babykiller-proaffirmative action/race traitor- anti war/traitor- free market capitalist/class traitor. If you can think of any other name that I haven’t been called serve them up but I bet I can hurt your feelings before you can hurt mine. Politics and all things political ain’t bean bag son. Noonan and the kids and old men who shake their fist at the Sun wishing their lots were better knowing if they had THEIR way things would be are AMATEURS. You need to keep that in mind when dealing with PROS.
Lots of luck on rebuilding your political party with spit and baling wire!
40. liberalT | January 17th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
ouch Mark - your own words come back to kick you in the butt. I can’t wait to see you try to dance yourself out of this one…
41. Jeremiah | January 17th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
That’s pretty interesting, the last commenter on that July ‘07 thread - Fats D.
He uses the Holy Scriptures so freely without any knowledge of their meanings. Of course, that’s nothing new. People abuse the Scriptures every single day.
All one has to do to fully understand God’s Will on Abortion, just go to the 32nd chapter of Jeremiah. When the people of Israel and Judah sacrificed their sons and daughters to Molech in the Valley of Bin Hinnom. They done this even after God had strictly forbidden them not to (Leviticus 18:21-Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the Lord.). So, God ordered that place destroyed. He ordered the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon to go in, tear it down, and set it on fire.
There is much more one can find in God’s Word that tells us Abortion is an abomination.
Exodus 21:22-25
If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allow. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
If you’ve ever seen an abortion take place - ie, here–You can see that the little baby is torn, limb for limb. Their little bodies are just completed ripped apart. Those doctors are no different than Saddam Hussein.
Those “doctors” have a lot to answer for, I can tell you that much, and by all rights, should receive the same judgment as Saddam received.
God help America!
~ Jeremiah
42. js | January 17th, 2008 at 9:22 pm
Damn Brett;
You really are an AHole. Really, count the posts. Mentally, you must really be struggling inside. Your hatred for Mark is seething isnt it?
He was right, you are a foaming at the mouth like a rabid dog. You think you are making sense, but in reality, you dont have anything but an irrational obsession.
I think your bad habit of jumping to conclusions is obvious. You did that the other day too, and totally missed the point. You just dont have a true grasp on reality.
43. liberalT | January 17th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
Mark was right? Jesus - you guys are insane. Mark has not provided one single piece of evidence, not one tiny bit of data, or anything else to back up his claims. Yet there is overwhelming data which shows that the rate of child birth is highly correlated with poverty, religion, and access to birth control (surprise surprise).
44. js | January 17th, 2008 at 10:15 pm
when are liberals going to stop coming up with such half witted rebuttals…
any yahoo out there that thinks Mass. is a strong, Catholic State, needs to wake the F(8&k up.
aint no Catholic majority gonna allow homosexual marriage, no way, no how
they way down on the list of Christainity, pert near the bottom, like liberals always are
45. liberalT | January 17th, 2008 at 11:30 pm
well js - you can continue to spew nonsense rhetoric or you can you can look at the data:
http://www.beliefnet.com/politics/religiousaffiliation.html
as you can see that about 40% of MA self identifies as a catholic. Which is by far the largest religious group. You see js - you can live in la la land or you can deal with facts..
46. Mark Noonan | January 18th, 2008 at 12:16 am
liberalT,
Yest, deal with facts - such as the fact you haven’t looked up: only about half of American Catholics are observant. Non-observant Catholics are in most respects no different from mainline Protestants…religious in name only. It is because of such things that Catholics in MA can for a Catholic like Kennedy…when Catholic teaching doesn’t matter, voting for a Kennedy is easy.
For Catholics who are observant, its another story entirely.
47. liberalT | January 18th, 2008 at 8:25 am
nice try Mark - but you see you are proving my point over and over again. When ever you see a fact you don’t like you come up with some reason that you can ignore it. Sure - many people are not very religious - but the same goes for everyone regardless of what state they come from (unless you can prove otherwise). So even if we believe your completely made up on the spot number that 50% of those are practicing and further believe that those 50% don’t believe in the basic tenants (both things that you have not provided a single piece of evidence for ) it wouldn’t prove anything. BECAUSE the same is true everywhere and we are comparing birth rates to practices in comparison to other places.
Mark - it would do you a great service if you would collect facts first and then form opinions not the other way around. It is quite hilarious to watch you try to either come up with a series of ever more complicated reasons as to why we can ignore facts you don’t like but have to take them very seriously when you do like them. What is worse is that you honestly think that your random unsubstantiated pseudo-logic can refute hard facts. The facts speak for themselves Mark you can not lie or twist them around
48. js | January 18th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
Add 2 more to your obsession.
Really, its obvious brett. You are an AHole.