Hillary, Obama and Edwards All Want to End This Right Away
January 17th, 2008 at 09:11am Mark Noonan
Ah, the horrible things we’re doing in Iraq - we really need to get out of there without delay. I’m glad that President HillaryObamaEdwards has pledged to “end” the war in Iraq:
Operation Raider Harvest, a large scale operation in the Northern Diyala River Valley involving more than 4,000 troops from 4th Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division from Fort Lewis, Wash., is shifting focus from a clearing operation to a rebuilding operation.
The changes are showing in the streets. Hundreds of Iraqis took to the streets of Mansuriyah, Jan. 13, some to observe their new Iraqi Army and Coalition Force neighbors, others to collect bags full of rice and flour during a humanitarian aid (HA) drop conducted by Soldiers of Troop G, 2nd Squadron, 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment (ACR).
“We are working to establish projects to improve life support and improve the infrastructure,” said Capt. Robert Green, Grim Troop Commander, 2-3 ACR.
Green’s troop and Iraqi Army Soldiers handed out scoops full of flour and rice to the people of Mansuriyah. Twenty-five 50-kilogram bags of flour and 25 50-kilogram bags of rice were distributed to dozens of men, women and children lined up behind Grim Troop’s entry control point.
“We’re trying to show a gesture of good will,” said Grim Troop 1st Sgt. James Adcock. “We’ve transitioned from blocking positions and defending against the IED (improvised explosive device) threat and just keeping an eye on the area. We’re still watching the routes and monitoring traffic, but we are trying to get things back to normal here.”
This is exactly why missions such as this HA drop needed to be conducted, according to Adcock.
“We are passing out this rice and flour in hopes of gaining some trust,” Adcock said. “We are showing these people we’re here to help.”
Just a complete disaster…why are we there? Can’t we just see that we’re making more terrorists? And why have we inserted our troops into the Iraqi civil war? Aren’t we just there for oil? And for Haliburton profits? And for Israel? Damned Neo-Con/Likud cabal! We’ll never have peace until we stop what we’re doing in Iraq!
Entry Filed under: War on Terror
67 Comments
1. Rana Quijotesca | January 17th, 2008 at 9:24 am
How’s the Iraqi government doing? I haven’t heard anything about them from this blog or the MSM in a while…
2. Rich | January 17th, 2008 at 10:01 am
Well a major piece of legislation was passed on de-baathifaction. Pretty big news.
3. Retired Spook | January 17th, 2008 at 10:02 am
Rana, hopefully no news is good news. I’ve read a number of articles in the last month that seem to indicate that political advances and reconciliation are beginning to occur from the grass roots up instead of from the national level down. That’s a healthy but unexpected phenomenon.
I can never quite tell from your comments whether you want our efforts to succeed or whether you’d prefer to see us fail. You almost always seem to dwell on the negative.
4. SEW | January 17th, 2008 at 10:42 am
It’s the 4,000 American soldier deaths they are concerned with. Those that volunteered to defend the USA, and did so. But 40,000,000 abortions without consent is A OK.
5. Diana Powe | January 17th, 2008 at 11:24 am
SEW,
Nice piece of smear. You don’t know anything about what “they” (All Democrats, all liberals, all people you dislike?) think about abortion, aside from the fact that views on the issue vary across political boundaries, but you’re perfectly willing to make your little fact-free assertion which has nothing to with Iraq. Vietnam service-avoider Karl Rove couldn’t have done it any better himself. Of course, I could be mistaken. Perhaps you’re a mind-reader and, as an inevitable result of that awesome power, you’re incredibly wealthy and powerful. Am I right?
6. SteaM | January 17th, 2008 at 11:29 am
I know you guys don’t like reality.
But have you ever asked any of the 2 million refugees or those who have lost family members as there are hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civillian casualties. Have you noticed that their government is not in working order. Have you read about the problems witht he new de-baathification law? How it could make things much worse because it’s deeply flawed?
No you haven’t. Because you sit in your comfy chair in your comfy home with 100% uptime with regards to electricity and fresh water. You presumably have a job or some kind of income. You presumably feel fairly secure in your home and your neighborhood and city.
How can you second guess that everything is going great. That we are winning. They the Iraqis love us. That everything is wonderful in their lives because of us.
Mark, you are a religous nut with a nasty case of severe denial of reality. Sometimes reality is unpleasant. Just because someone wants to discuss these unpleasantries doesn’t mean that person wants to dwell on the negative or is unAmerican or hates freedom or the troops. It just means that person is looking at the big picture and accepting what is really going on… as bad or good as it is. No blurring of the facts to satifsy their selfish inner feelings. Whereas accepting reality would destroy everything they believe in.
7. SEW | January 17th, 2008 at 11:39 am
Diane said “they” (All Democrats, all liberals, all people you dislike?) think about abortion”
Since I only said they and you filled in the blanks, it is obvious YOU are the mind reader, not me. On the other hand you are correct, the 3 libs running for the Dims fully endorse the 40,000,000 abortions performed in this country but object to our troops doing what they volunteered to do.
8. SEW | January 17th, 2008 at 11:50 am
In fact the ‘they’ I was referring to was on topic, Hillary, Obama, and Edwards. But how did you derive from they, “all Democrats, all liberals and all people you dislike”? Mine was not a smear as you described, just check the voting record and their public statements, but yours is certainly libel. I said theyn not all Democrats, all liberals and all I dislike! YOU said that. To create liberal spin. Libel
9. SteaM | January 17th, 2008 at 11:57 am
SEW,
hahaha, you’re funny!
I guess since Bush inadvertantly created more terrorism, sent 4,000 troops to their death in the middle east, destroyed Iraq’s basic infrastructure for their basic services, disbanded their government and it’s employees (pissed them off in the meantime … what does an Iraqi librarian or engineer have to do with terrorism or 911?), fired their military and police (pissed them off as well), led to sectarian cleansing and civil war. The Iraqi civilians who have left (2 million) their country and the Iraqi civilians who have died (as many as 200,000 or more) because of Bush’s war.
Because of your support for this president you are fully in support of all of these things that have happened. You endorse them. So does Mark.
10. SEW | January 17th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
SteamM and Diana, Take you meds as prescribed or seek help. Maybe begin by taking the tinfoil hats off.
And I thought the Soros funded Hopkins study had the death toll at 700,000 or so. And “Bush’s” war was voted for by Billary and Edwards. Aitch “would have voted against”.
Regards.
11. SteaM | January 17th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
meds, tinfoil hat, Soros, Billary, “voted for the war” blah blah….
Ok, now that you have that utter ignorant hateful nonsense out of you system please actually say something with some substance to it.
Your defense mechanism is obvious.
12. SEW | January 17th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
I do find it amazing that liberals consider it a “smear” when the positions on abortion and the war of Obama, Clinton and Edwards are mentioned. TINFOIL needed.
13. Sunny | January 17th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
SEW - the 3 libs running for the Dims fully endorse the 40,000,000 abortions performed in this country but object to our troops doing what they volunteered to do.
Maybe you should rethink the 40,000,000 abortions being performed each year (?) as I am sure that only liberals are having abortions. That could be a positive for your party. As it is, only about 25% of Americans identify themselves as Republicans. And the 3 “Dims” as you so stupidly put it, do not “fully support” abortions. They do support the right for a woman to decide what she will do in case of an unplanned pregnancy or serious birth defect. They also support appropriate sex education, which could be one of the best ways to stop abortions. That would be too simple for the pro-life crowd.
As to the troops who “volunteered” to go and be killed, you might want to re-think that one. I believe that a number of those who died in Iraq were National Guard. Just my opinion, but I am guessing most of those volunteered to serve in their home states, believing that they would most likely be called up only during an emergency here in the US.
14. Diana Powe | January 17th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
SEW-who-can’t-read-and-spell-my-name-correctly,
You’re serious? You used the word “they” in your sentence, but you don’t know what you meant by that? I clearly indicated the fact that I didn’t know who you meant by “they” because your comment didn’t specify. That’s a fairly…interesting…approach to writing.
There are undoubtedly some Americans who serve in the armed forces of the United States who specifically enlisted with a goal of serving in Iraq. However, zero service members made the decision to invade Iraq in 2003. They went to Iraq because they were ordered there by the President of the United States. As of the end of 2007 only 40% of those polled by the Military Times approved of the President’s handling of the war and only 46% say that we should have invaded Iraq. In fact, the numbers service-wide may well be worse because, as the Military Times notes in the article about their survey:
So, polls consistently show that the President’s performance is not approved of by the public at large, it’s not approved of by the active-duty military, it’s not approved of by Republicans (he only got a 36% job approval rating in the latest FOX/Opinion Dynamics survey!) so when does it get to the point that everyone except the true-believers matter?
15. SteaM | January 17th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Dude, abortions have gone down considerably and most likely because of things like the morning after pill, which you religous nuts think is a bad thing even if it does cut down on abortions simply because it might (in your opinion) be sending a signal that having pre-maritial sex is OK. Which this, of course, goes against your religion so you want to block things like the morning after pill, or giving away condoms, etc… things that reduce abortions yet you are against them.
You are against things that effectively reduce abortions because of your religious and moral beliefs.
How do you explain your war against reducing abortions in the name of God?
16. SEW | January 17th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Must be a full moon. Moonbats everywhere.
17. SteaM | January 17th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Exactly!
You cannot respond except to call Diana and I names. That’s a defense mechanism which I already called you out for.
Try something of substance.
18. SEW | January 17th, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Actually I was referring to you, Dian and Sunny.
19. Diana Powe | January 17th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
SteaM,
It’s part and parcel of the conservative cognitive-dissonance. They routinely blather about the “hatred” and “name-calling” of the “loony left” and yet they mindlessly echo the little formulations they’ve heard like the completely unoriginal moonbat.
20. SteaM | January 17th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
Ok, I’m a moonbat and you’re a wingnut.
So, how’s that disasterous illegal war that you still support going? How about that war against abortion prevention?
21. SEW | January 17th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
Moonbats always bring Bush and Rove into the topic. And, you qualify! Some call it Bush derangement syndrome, others Bush/Rove derangement syndrome.
Alows for an easy diagnosis, blood test not needed.
22. Sunny | January 17th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
When SEW cannot make a compelling or reasonably thought out argument, he resorts to junior high tactics - i.e. “moonbats everwhere”. The issues are just too hard for him to address, and although he spews garbage like above regarding “they”, it is perfectly clear to the majority of posters here exactly what he means. If he didn’t mean “all Democrats, all liberals, all people you dislike” as Diana correctly stated, then maybe he could enlighten us as to who as to “they” might be. Enough name calling - it is just childish.
23. SEW | January 17th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
“disasterous illegal war” SteamM
Also diagnostic for Moonbat and BDS.
24. NeoClown | January 17th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Steam, Diana,
SEW must be ashamed of our fighting men and women in Iraq. Why else would he insist on changing the subject away from Iraq?
SEW can’t defend the debacle in Iraq so he chose to attack a woman’s right to a medically safe abortion.
SEW isn’t interested in the thousands of young women that will hemorrhage to death in back ally abortion mills.
SEW is interested in taking the attention away from Iraq and our fighting men and women.
25. SEW | January 17th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
“I clearly indicated the fact that I didn’t know who you meant by “they” because your comment didn’t specify.” Dian
“If he didn’t mean “all Democrats, all liberals, all people you dislike” as Diana correctly stated, then maybe he could enlighten us as to who as to “they” might be.” Sunny
“In fact the ‘they’ I was referring to was on topic, Hillary, Obama, and Edwards.” SEW post 8
Must be a full moon Sunny.
26. SEW | January 17th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Definitely a full moon. Heeeeres NeoClown!
27. Diana Powe | January 17th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
Bush Derangement Syndrome (BDS)…another substitution for thought. If I’m a conservative and I don’t want to consider that the world is not like a doll whose eyes close when you lay it down and open when you bring it upright then it’s very hard because reality doesn’t come packaged in the nice little hatelets that I’m using to being fed by Rush, Sean, Ann and Bill. I might have to consider the possibility that real honest-to-gosh people, real members of the military, real Republicans (FOX/Opinion Dynamics poll 12/18-19/07, Bush overall job rating - Approve 36%, Disapprove 57%, Unsure 6%) don’t favor the man that is the object of my cult of personality. So, I have to draw my little neologisms (moonbat, Dims, BDS) close around me to protect me from that harsh, harsh reality. I wish it was “Morning in America” again.
28. SteaM | January 17th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
…back to today’s favorite morning news show… today we will be talking about anything but the endless war in iraq, the Iraqi civilians who have died in our name because of a choice that Bush made, and the loss of our civil rights in favor of “security” that has actually not brought us more security but rather has done the opposite.
Next up… what’s up with Edwards’ hair and we’ll ask the question burning in everyone’s minds: why do most Americans hate freedom and the troops?
29. Retired Spook | January 17th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
I posted this near the end of an open thread (about 5 threads back). I think it bears repeating. I enjoy a good give and take as much as anyone, but the arguments and rhetoric here have gotten really childish.
30. Diane Tomlinson | January 17th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
Since some percentage of those 40 000 000 were the illegitimate spawn of fundie whack jobs that had been produced via incest, rape or both by some preacher or other person of trust I say “Who cares.” Do you weep equally for the 20 million that died on the Middle Passage of the tens of millions that died because of manifest Destiny, SEW? Or is it just that you can see the browning of America just like I can and you realize how soon enough you will be a demographic equal to people of color who do not share your conservative world view.
Would I rather see a woman kill an unborn child than live a life of poverty, drudgery and want? You bet. Do I think it would be a sin? I’m not the judge. Would I do it myself? In a heartbeat, with a clear conscience. Would most so-called evangelicals if their mistress/daughter/wife found themselves in a compromising situation? Once again you bet it happens every day. Why not just command all evangelicals, wingnuts and fundies not to have abortions better yet make it a federal crime punishable by Death by beheading Saudi style in the public square. I think that would even bolster your abstinence only sex ed programs.
31. Retired Spook | January 17th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
and the loss of our civil rights in favor of “security” that has actually not brought us more security but rather has done the opposite.
SteaM, in the spirit of my previous post, I’m going to be a civil as I can WRT your statement. Can you please list the civil rights you’ve lost and describe in what way are we less secure than we were 6-1/2 years ago?
32. Dasein Libsbane | January 17th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Mark,
I honestly don’t understand why you allow these people to hijack the thread when they clearly have nothing to add to the debate. They obviously will ignore any positive results in Iraq, that goes without saying; but why allow Diana to rail on about support, or lack of for President Bush when the subject is the democrats, allow steam to continue his “sound-of-one-hand-clapping” and Sunny and Diane’s abortion conversation with themselves is beyond me. Delete them all, and this post as well and let’s discuss the hypocracy of the democrat candidates, shall we?
Spook, don’t feed the trolls, please!
33. Retired Spook | January 17th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Spook, don’t feed the trolls, please!
Sorry, Bane, I’d just like to see if any of them are actually for something. I’m not holding my breath.
34. Dasein Libsbane | January 17th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
Spook,
Did you see the “undecided democrats” reacting to the democrat debate on H&C last night? I was appalled at these people; they don’t stand for anything; they follow the conspiracy theories and parrot the war–for-oil/Bush is rewarding his big-Oil buddies/middle-class is suffering under tax cuts for the rich bilge.
You’ll notice I don’t comment her much anymore; I grow weary of the Diana’s of this world and their illogical misdirection. It’s the so’s-your-old-man circular arguments; Don’t like the fact that we’re not losing in Iraq? Simply discuss Bush’s popularity. Can’t defend your defeatist agenda? Accuse conservatives of raping their sisters.
Life’s too short to play school-yard games with the intellectually dishonest.
35. Casper | January 17th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Spook,
In the spirit of your post, let me say this. It is pretty obvious that militarily the surge has been a sucess. It also seems that politically things don’t seem to be going near as well in Iraq at least on a national level.
That said, we have over a year before we swear in a new president. Even if our new president decided pull out as soon as he or she takes office, it will take anywhere from 6 months to a year and a half to bring all of our troops and equipment home. The best case senario is that things will have improved to the point that we could start removing the bulk of our troops before the next president takes office.
36. JHL | January 17th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Yeah Spook, we are for something. The idea of America. What we are not for is this nightmare vision that so many here seem to share, support and encourage.
And Dasein, deleting contrary points of view does not make them any less valid nor does it make them vanish from reality.
I will provide for Spook the civil liberties that have been violated by the Orwellian named “Patriot Act” (or as Glenn Greenwald says, How would a Patriot act?)
These are the amendments that have been outlawed. The 1st, the 4th, the 5th, the 6th, the 8th and the 14th.
I will embellish. Habeas Corpus no longer exists. FISA laws have been violated. (Several months ago the FBI testified to Congress that it exceeded its boundries by abusing FISA laws because the Patriot Act allowed them to.)
I am sure this little post will garner all sorts of histrionics but as your idol says; “Bring it on”.
I’m sure he’d say it again but he is too busy begging for oil from the Saudis.
37. DM | January 17th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Bane - agreed.
38. Diana Powe | January 17th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Retired Spook,
I’m sure you’ll see it on your own, but I responded to your comment on the open thread. As I noted in that post, it’s hard to be too positive when angry commenters want to attribute all possible bad attributes they can think of to you and anyone else they can lump you together with. If Dasein Libsbane can persuade Matt and Mark to impose some Soviet-style orthodoxy in the comments, then that is certainly their prerogative. However, as someone who certainly is disposed to thoughtful dialog, do you think that there isn’t some merit to people being asked to defend their positions? I can find lots of people who espouse views I find agreeable but what is better for testing my ability to defend my views, commenting here or commenting somewhere where everyone applauds?
39. David.B.Schmidt | January 17th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
SteaM, #6: “…have you ever asked any of the…” - Yes I have personally. Have you ever asked them anything? Have you ever even met one?
SteaM, overall: you are just ignorant about warfare. Then again, I will take a “wild guess” that you do not believe we (the United States) are at war.
Sunny, #13: “as to the troops who “volunteered” to go and be killed…” - Almost doesn’t justify a response; however during my time in the Marines — I was never sworn in with those words…think they were closer to “protect and defend”. Even the ignorant.
Diana, #14: Polls are worthless in my opinion; however, maybe, just maybe, you should look at re-enlistment rates. Every branch has met their goals of new enlistments (and you can talk about the different ploys); nonetheless, the re-enlistment rates are over the top with many doing so “in country”.
SteamM, #15: Does anyone beyond elementary school age still use the word “Dude”? Or is this a lowest common denominator thing like commercials and wearing one’s hat backward?
NeoClown, #24 “…of young women that will hemorrhage to death in back ally abortion mills.” - Too stupid of a comment to deserve reply. Tighten the tinfoil.
Now onto the original post. Didn’t ALL Democrats (except Rep. Kucinich) candidates during their original debate raise their hands (like 3rd graders) stating that they would keep troops in Iraq the entire length of their original four years? Thought so.
At the final moment before posting: JHL, please provide a single example of one of your many claims.
40. SteaM | January 17th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
41. SteaM | January 17th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
(sorry about my bad formatting up there)
And then there’s Gonzoles’ take on Habaes Corpus…
http://baltimorechronicle.com/2007/011907Parry.shtml
42. SteaM | January 17th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
As for making us less secure… studies show that we are less secure because our war in Iraq has created more terrorism worldwide.
It has really really pissed off a lot of Muslims and for very valid reasons. As in, any one of us, put into their shoes, would feel the same way they do.
Our borders are not secure, our ports aren’t either. It may not even be possible to completely secure everything but the mere fact that the world is stewing with post-Iraq war hatred towards the US it just seems more and more likely that we are asking to be attacked.
Basically I cannot give many details as I’m not an expert in any of these areas. I’m sure Diana can help out with this one a little more than I could.
However, I do the best to educate myself. To adapt and learn and change. I left my Reagan Republican Southern Baptist fundamentalist upbringing behind in exchange for an open, realistic, moral, environtmental, healthy, and even an Atheist approach.
And I can tell you, politics aside, religion aside, mine or your ignorance of history and facts… that things are heading in a bad direction. Can I tell you what that direction is and exactly how it is bad? Not very effectively. But I’ll keep trying.
43. SteaM | January 17th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
By the way, is someone suggesting that my use of the word “dude” is a bad thing?
Dude, lighten up ;)
44. Dasein Libsbane | January 17th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
See what I mean, Spook?
You asked for specifics and we are treated to this fecal emancipation.
“Soviet style orthodoxy”? If by that she means sticking to the subject, then yes, there should be such an “orthodoxy.” But, she’s used the word incorrectly and her allusion to Soviet is highly inaccurate and argumentative.
45. Diana Powe | January 17th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
David,
Well, I don’t know what to say if you believe that polls are worthless. They’re central to modern life and if they were truly without value it would seem highly improbable that so many entities would use them for so many purposes. They’re not infallible because the only true way to know the opinion on some topic is to ask every single person, which, in the case of Americans or military personnel, is plainly impossible. However, they’re regularly cited by conservatives and Republicans when they see a result they approve of.
Reenlistment is often cited in this context, however, it’s trying to simplify the complex in my judgment. Who is reenlisting? What are the various, highly personal, reasons they choose to do so? How many have reenlisted despite our presence in Iraq? I don’t know, but I think it would highly presumptuous, at minimum, to suggest that no one who reenlists doesn’t believe that withdrawing soon would be best.
Did you read the op-ed coauthored by the 82nd Airborne troopers (6 NCOs and 1 Enlisted) in the New York Times last August? Two have since died in an in-theater accident and one was shot in the head before their piece was published. They are and were dedicated to their mission and their country but that didn’t prevent them from disagreeing with the rationale for the mission they were directed to carry out.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/19/opinion/19jayamaha.html
Unfortunately, this topic reminds me of the all-but-forgotten Cpl. Patrick D. Tillman (after he was lionized by the Administration immediately after his friendly-fire death in Afghanistan) who enlisted and made a huge sacrifice in just doing so even before making the ultimate sacrifice. He didn’t approve of the President and was critical of the invasion of Iraq but he still was performing his job when it cost him his life.
46. JHL | January 17th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
David Schmidt:
I will be happy to. But first, might I suggest that you Google restore habeas corpus and then Google John Dean @ findlaw.com
Protesting at public appearances by GWB have been outlawed. In order to do so, the protesting group (or groups) are contained in an enclosed area miles away from the prez. Names are taken and backgrounds investigated. There have been numerous people who have been arrested for wearing anti-Bush TShirts and have had to sue the government in order to fight the charge, and to date the court has decided in favor of the plantiff.
The right of due process (Habeas Corpus) has been recinded. The president has gathered unto himself the power to declare anyone, anywhere and at any time an “enemy” of the state or an “enemy combantant” and therefore denied access to an attourney or; more importantly the charges filed against him or her. And merely, I might add on the say so of the prez. He has this power. The 6th amendment? See previous sentence.
The 8th, does the word Torture mean anything to you?
The 14th, which states that all people; citizens or not are entitled to due process and equal protection under U.S. laws.
I guess this is why the joint cheifs want to shut down Club Gitmo.
If you require even more specifics, i.e. names and dates I have them too.
The overall point is this. Under the Bush administration our country has devolved into everything that we as nation throughout our history have strived so hard to be against. Period paragraph.
Why do you think the Republican Party, such as it is, is having such a difficult time? Why do Jim Jones’ers like the editiors of this blog are predicting a brokered convention come summer?
47. Reg Dwight | January 17th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
We never should have gone into Iraq in the half-assed way we did. If we had gone in with adequate troops (recall General Shenseki), secured Iraq and then stood down, we would not be in the condition we’re in now, both militarily and internationally. Plus Bush mishandled the original reconstruction effort, absent any sort of competence, by sending in a bunch of unqualified civlian political appointee ideologues that couldn’t get the power and the water back on, couldn’t get the hospitals up and running, couldn’t get the oil to pump. And then they put a lot of guys out of work by disbanding the Iraqi army, everything went downhill from there.
The surge is working because we’re buying off the Sunni insurgents’ help. But HOW LONG will it be before they turn around and shoot at our troops?
The American people better wise up soon.
48. JHL | January 17th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
Reg Dwight:
Must be an Elton fan, huh?
I concur with your observations. The last days of The Bush administration reminds me of the character that Bill Murray played in Caddyshack as he snuck off the golf course in a driving rain to avoid the dead body of the Bishop. And any responsibility thereof.
One essential element to so many things, like comedy, is timing.
Maybe when the next prez is being inagurated GW will blow up the golf course. But hopefully not before!
49. Retired Spook | January 17th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
Life’s too short to play school-yard games with the intellectually dishonest.
Bane, I’ve reached that point at least twice in the last 4 years. It’s amazing what a 1 or 2 month sabbatical can do to cure the blog blues. Sometimes you just have to kick back and recharge.
SteaM and JHL, have either of you been personally effected by any of the losses of civil liberties you list, or do you know someone who has, because I haven’t and I don’t.
50. sleepygene | January 17th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
Spook-
Jose Padilla. Ever heard of him? Are you okay with a country that tortures or spies on its own citizens without proper court approval? This is not what america is all about. It is depressing that so many would say it is okay because they think the governemnt knows what is best. We all know the governement would never abuse its powers.
51. Sunny | January 17th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Sorry, Bane, I’d just like to see if any of them are actually for something. I’m not holding my breath.
Retired Spook
Retired, I am for less government in our personal lives; I am for safe products in our grocery stores, and department stores; I am for labeling “country of orgin” on the food products I buy; I am for closing the borders and making sure that those that enter our country do so in a legal way; I am for immediately releasing from prison the two Border Patrol agents that were convicted of shooting a drug dealer in the behind; I am for the freedom to practice my religious beliefs without interferrence from the government, but I believe that there is a separation of church and state; I believe that a woman should have the right to terminate a pregnancy in a safe manner should she believe that it is what is best for her situation; I do not believe a late term abortion should be legal unless it is a life threatening situation. I believe that you should be able to own your guns, but I do not see the need of private owernship of automatic guns that only has a purpose of killing. I believe that if you are physically able and of working age, you should. I do not want to support you through any social progam just because you are too lazy to get a job. I want the lowest taxes possible, with the understanding that we, as a people, must we willing to pay for roads, bridges, etc. I am even willing to pay more in taxes to help pay for this war that I have been against since day one so my grandchildren will not have to bear this burden. I do not believe in pre-emptive war when the nation we attack has done nothing to us. Terrible dictators is not a strong enough reason to attack a country. I am for an excellent educational system for our children and grand children. That is just a few of the things I am for and support.
52. SteaM | January 17th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
SteaM and JHL, have either of you been personally effected by any of the losses of civil liberties you list, or do you know someone who has, because I haven’t and I don’t.
Spook,
I have not been nor do I know of anyone personally who has been effected. So far. I do know that the window has been opened. The can of worms opened. The opportunity is there for people to take advantage, in the future, of things like the Patriot Act. Future presidents and administrations.
I believe in principles and rights that should not, never, no circumstance, no reason, ever be altered in the name of security. This is what has happened. It might not be that you and I and our friends and family are effected yet but the chance of it becoming all to real is increasing with our civil rights and liberties eroding slowly. The justice system is politized too much. The Supreme Court is not balanced enough nor is it effective as a coequal branch of government anymore. Nor is Congress effective as a co-equal branch against this above-the-law Presidency.
53. JHL | January 17th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
Spook:
The point is not if anyone I know, or you know or anyone that anybody knows has suffered these egregious acts. The point is that they can. It is possible and that my friend, is not only un American but anti American.
But if you need some sort of emperical proof before you make a decision to believe or not believe that the United States has become the anti christ under the “direction” of the Bush Administration, here are some names.
Tom Treece. Doug Stuber. Jose Padilla.Brett Busey. Bill Neel. Aaron Stokes. Aaron Kilner.
I look forward to your pithy reply.
54. Retired Spook | January 17th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
I look forward to your pithy reply.
I’m beyond pithy replies at this point, JHL. Throughout the history of this country, rights have been suspended and rights have been restored. It’s when rights are permanently revoked that we have to start worring. Lincoln suspended habeas corpus, and, after the Civil Way it was restored. Roosevelt put Japanese Americans in internment camps during WWII in one of the most shameful abuses of civil liberties in our history, but they were released after the war. After 9/11 we didn’t make the same mistake with American Muslims. The point that I made in a previous thread — a government that is powerful enough to give you everything you want is also powerful enough to take everything you have.
I didn’t bother to Google the 7 names you listed, because, in the overall scheme of things, assuming they are all American citizens, they represent .0000023% of the U.S. population. I guess if you want to believe that that’s an abuse of power and a suspension of civil liberties, then that is your right. Me? I’m not too worried.
55. anarchist | January 17th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
“SteaM and JHL, have either of you been personally effected by any of the losses of civil liberties you list, or do you know someone who has, because I haven’t and I don’t.” - Retired Spook
Almost 40% of government funding goes to overseas military and homeland security. Some people consider the right to own the stuff that is created entirely from their own labor an important civil liberty.
56. Mark Noonan | January 17th, 2008 at 5:14 pm
Diana,
I wonder how many times we’ll have to point out that Military Times is run by a Bush critic and its annual poll is a self-selected poll. IE - worthless.
57. JHL | January 17th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
Spook:
Of course not, those people…according to your definition…don’t count. So turn your head away.
And spare me the historical references. OK?
Gag me, the civil war….250 years ago. WWII? What were we fighting for then? To eleminate all slant eyed people? Or Germanic fascisim? Or Italian fascisim? Or Greek?
The fact of the matter is that GWB is THE WORST president our proud country has every had in waking memory and the political party that wants to attempt to carry on in the tradition that he and Cheney have trashed will not…in our lifetime…be able to carry on. Period paragraph.
He is singularly responsible for the state of our disunion and I hope that he suffers eternal damnation for it.
BDS my arse.
58. Mark Noonan | January 17th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Spook,
I did a bit of looking - Treece is involved in a local dispute between himself, a vocal war opponent, and another man who is a vocal war supporter…no agency of the Bush Administration has anything to do with the Treece case.
Doug Stuber claims he was harrassed by some law enforcement agents at the airport because he’s a Green…he doesn’t exactly explain how they knew he was a Green…but as he calls the police “pigs” in his writing, it could be just a mere fact of his being an a**hole which caused the trouble.
Jose Padilla is an al-Qaeda terrorist.
Brett Bursey violated the restricted area around the President when he visits non-secure areas. He was fined all of $500.00.
Bill Neel also violated the restricted area around the President.
Aaron Stokes is Aaron Kilner, a police officer who kept tabs on radical groups immediately after 9/11. He is deceased due to a motorcycle accident.
Yep, I feel the Gestapo breathing down my neck, let me tell ya.
59. JHL | January 17th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
You are a member of the Gestapo Mark….
so who do you think you are kidding?
Oh wait. Maybe you are just a mindless cheerleader.
60. JHL | January 17th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
Furthermore Mark, if there is a restricted area around the prez, then that is a violation of free speech and the right of assembly. Who determines what is and what isn’t a “restricted area”? To most of us it is the constitution.
Your arguments are self serving and santamonious.
But go figure. Have a nice time at the Bellagio.
61. Casper | January 17th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
“I wonder how many times we’ll have to point out that Military Times is run by a Bush critic and its annual poll is a self-selected poll. IE - worthless.” Mark
If I remember correctly there were a lot of people on the right using the Military Times figures until the last poll. Until then the polls showed a great deal of support for Bush.
62. Dasein Libsbane | January 17th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
Spook,
After reading that pap from JHL I’ve decided you’re right; I’ll be back in a few months. Meanwhile navydad has my email address if anything exciting happens.
I’ll be looking for that restricted area section of the Constitution while I’m gone; I get to sleep with my “attourney” so the legal advice will be free.
Keep up the good fight.
63. neocon | January 17th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
>>And spare me the historical references. OK? - JHL<<
You’re right JHL, who needs history? What has it taught us anyway, right?
You don’t have BDS son, you’re just permanently brain damaged. Some of your comments, specifically post #57 clearly reveal your lack of intelligence, and BDS requires a least the ability to be dishonest. Sorry.
64. Retired Spook | January 17th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Gag me, the civil war….250 years ago. WWII? What were we fighting for then? To eleminate all slant eyed people? Or Germanic fascisim? Or Italian fascisim? Or Greek?
Slept through that class, eh JHL?
Mark,
I kinda figured the people JHL dredged up were pretty marginal human beings which is why I didn’t waste my time. Your descriptions give me a whole new insight into JHL’s motivations and mental capacity, as if I really needed any. You certainly have my permission to give him the GONG.
65. Retired Spook | January 17th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
Meanwhile navydad has my email address if anything exciting happens.
Hey, Bane, navydad has my email address too. Maybe we ought to all get together and start our own troll-free blog. I figure there’s got to be at least 8 or 10 of us that have each other’s email address. Ask navydad to give you mine.
66. DM | January 18th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
“Meanwhile navydad has my email address if anything exciting happens.” – Bane
“Hey, Bane, navydad has my email address too. Maybe we ought to all get together and start our own troll-free blog. I figure there’s got to be at least 8 or 10 of us that have each other’s email address. Ask navydad to give you mine.” - Spook
Pleeeeeeease – I’d love to be a part of something like this. Count me in!!!
Mark, please allow Spook, Bane, navydad and / or our other conservative minded individuals my email address as well.
As for this blog… it was great when I first start reading. It then became tiring with how a handful of objectors posted crap and polluted reasonable interaction. Like Spook and others I’m sure, I left to “charge my batteries” as they say. It didn’t take long to see that the pollution has gotten worse.
Now I read bits and pieces, skip most of the bile and comment on rare occasions but even that is loosing its appeal. I’m looking forward to a troll-free blog should on become available.
Sorry if this is double posted.
67. keefer | January 18th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
Spook, give my e-mail address to DL and navydad too. I’d love to go to a place where trolls are few and far between.
Any good sites running now?
No offense, Mark and Matt, but the regulars are dropping like flies here, and you know why. They spew the same redundant TP rhetoric, over and over, and come here to instigate and gloat.
It’s getting old…