De-Radical Islam
March 5th, 2008 at 08:53am Mark Noonan
In the end, the whole point of the liberation of Iraq was to give an opportunity - for the first time ever - to the Arab/Moslem peoples to decide for themselves what they wanted to do. When given any sort of choice, people will always choose that which makes them happy - they may be mistaken about what happiness really is and what is the best way to obtain it, but the basic human desire is to be happy. Happiness is not tradtionally bound up with killing, war, death, destruction and robbery. That some sick individuals have preferred such doesn’t change the fact that most people don’t like to do these things - they don’t make them happy. And yet, what we’ve seen out of the Arab/Moslem world over the past 60 years has been pretty much nothing but killing, war, death, etc. What gives? Are the Arabs just a different species which glories in tragedy? Hardly - they are human beings…and that means they want to be happy.
The problem is that the rulers of the Arab world (some of whom, to our shame, we backed in a short-sighted desire for “stability”) are mostly a collection of megalomaniacs who do like killing, war, death, etc., as long as doing such things can perpetuate and increase their power and wealth. Since the late 1980’s, this species of leadership has dressed itself more and more in the words and symbols of the Moslem religion as the old paradigm (the secularist-socialistic worldview of Kemal’s Turkey, sometimes crossed with Nazi and communist thinking) clearly failed to deliver the goods or hold the imagination of the Arab people. But, once again, even though th Moslem religion is held very precious by the Arab people, its not like they were happy to exchange a leaderhip which shouted nationalism for mullahs who shouted piety - because while the mullahs promised a lot, their practice involved a lot of killing, war, death etc. They stopped killing for the sake of Pan-Arabism, and started killing for the sake of Allah. Not the sort of stuff to make people happy.
Now, in Iraq, we’re keeping at bay both the old Pan-Arabists as well as the mullahs - not completely, but enough for people to start making up their minds about things. And we’re starting to see an interesting result:
BAGHDAD — After almost five years of war, many young people in Iraq, exhausted by constant firsthand exposure to the violence of religious extremism, say they have grown disillusioned with religious leaders and skeptical of the faith that they preach.
In two months of interviews with 40 young people in five Iraqi cities, a pattern of disenchantment emerged, in which young Iraqis, both poor and middle class, blamed clerics for the violence and the restrictions that have narrowed their lives.
“I hate Islam and all the clerics because they limit our freedom every day and their instruction became heavy over us,” said Sara, a high school student in Basra. “Most of the girls in my high school hate that Islamic people control the authority because they don’t deserve to be rulers.”
Atheer, a 19-year-old from a poor, heavily Shiite neighborhood in southern Baghdad, said: “The religion men are liars. Young people don’t believe them. Guys my age are not interested in religion anymore.”
Now, the news story says this is a contrast to a rising religious fervor elsewhere in the Moslem world - but I’m not buying that. its easy to fake fervor when you control all the media and can shoot people who don’t show proper fervor. Only in Iraq (and, to a lesser extent, in Afghanistan) are Moslem people in a majority-Moslem country capable of really questioning their religious leaders and asking why their faith seems to require suicide bombers and beheadings. My bet is that if the rest of the people of the Arab world had a real choice, they’d be asking such questions, too - one can’t imagine a human being happy about, say, the religious police in Saudi Arabia who can flog people for slight violations of their version of Islam. Sure, they put up with them, because they have to - but the way to happiness is not going to be found in a place where your sister can be beaten because a little hair was visible in public.
Do we really believe that average Egyptians want religious fanatics to persecute Egypt’s Christian community? Do we really believe that the average Pakistani wants a Christian sentenced to death for allegedly vandalising a mosque? Do we really believe that Arab men would throw a universal fit if their wives, daughters and sisters went out in public not covered from head to foot? To answer that question, ask yourself: do you feel like that? If the answer is “no” for you, then it is probably “no” for the Arabs, too. Now, don’t get me wrong - Islam is a conservative society; always will be, as long as it is Moslem. We’re not about to see a gay pride parade in Baghdad any time soon, nor nude bathing on the beaches of Saudi Arabia…such nonsense the Arabs will wisely leave to us fools in the West. But as far as just wanting to be happy and generally holding to a live and let live philosophy? I’ll bet anything that most Arabs are right there with us on that.
Entry Filed under: Religion, War on Terror
22 Comments
1. Magnum Serpentine | March 5th, 2008 at 9:12 am
I am rather tired of this republican view of why george went to war in Iraq. If it was to liberate people, then he should had also invaded Saudi Arabia, and the other Arab nations. As Mark pointed out we have not done so.
Surprise!
The real reason george went to war with Iraq was to get elected president in 2004 and it succeeded. The iraqi government has done maybe 10 percent of the effort to become truely independent. And why should they try harder? They know our viceroy there will ensure that their government will survive they know they do not have to make a good effort to build up a police force, they know if Turkey got serious and started marching on Baghdad that the US would come to their rescue and iraqi forces will not have to lift a finger to defend themselves.
I will say this, McCain has not used the Fear Mongering to win. McCain is using straight and honest talk and examples. I never saw george use these in 2000 and 2004. Infact george shot down McCain in 2000 because McCain used good honest speeches. george made attack adds while McCain did not.
Maybe when McCain wins he will declare war on Saudi Arabia and put in a democratic government there. Then maybe the Arab/Moslem peoples will be able to decide for themselves what they wanted to do
2. hermie | March 5th, 2008 at 9:17 am
Another example is in Iran, where the fanatical religious police are being met with resistance by the people, who are tiring of the restraints being placed on their lives.
Will this result in an Islamic ‘Reformation’? If the mullahs and their thugs continue they way they are, its possible.
Ironically, the backwards and undemocratic customs are being embraced and promoted by those in higher education and government (separate gym classes, foot-washing stations, etc), for the reason of ‘diversity’.
3. De-Radical Islam&hellip | March 5th, 2008 at 9:17 am
[...] saddiq wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerptIn the end, the whole point of the liberation of Iraq was to give an opportunity - for the first time ever - to the Arab/Moslem peoples to decide for themselves what they wanted to do. When given any sort of choice, people will always … [...]
4. Sunny | March 5th, 2008 at 9:55 am
Mark,
I am not sure that happiness is the goal of the majority of people in these Arab/Muslim countries, but just to live safely without the fear of being killed or having their loved ones killed; of being able to provide for their families; that their children can safely attend school; having a home - all of the things we take for granted everyday.
5. bagni | March 5th, 2008 at 11:05 am
de-mark-ical
the spacecowboys agree with your viewpoint on capturing the youth in islamolands
with that said
instead of the u.s. dropping all that green on guns and bullets
why not air drop a weekly shipment into all of the major cities in iraq, iran, etc
50,000 units a week
plasma screen tvs, xboxes, ipods, blackberries, cellphones, satellite dishes, etc.
then set up your awacs, satellites, etc
and beam in every bit of programming and communications savvy you got for free
they can talk, text, play, watch, and be introduced
to everything from three’s company to ultimate fighting to american idol
if the u.s. was committed to that for 3 yrs
your costs would go down
and you’d win big
just shift your military spending to consumer electronics spending
think of how that would drive your consumption based economy
but it makes too much sense
so the green gurus are expecting you to poo poo the idea????
still…us martian mooncalves still send love and kisses to you mark
6. Brian Citino | March 5th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
Your argument is thought provoking, however, I disagree with your assumption that the United States is the “World Police”. What makes it the U.S. job to free the Iraqi people? America has help set up a committie to govern international policy, its called the United Nations. America is its own country with its own problems. More murders occur in a few cities than deaths of U.S. soilders in Iraq, presently. Even before the war, the U.S. was in a economic recession now only worsening. Just becuse the U.S. has strong military power and a “wealthy economy” does not make us the Wolrd Police.
In addition, the war in Iraq was not about liberating the Iraqi people. Clearly evident, the war consumes the minds of oil corporations with dollar signs. Iraq has control of one of the largers oil resovoirs in world. U.S. control of that rescource would gurantee profit and security in the market.
7. congressive | March 5th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
This is truly a step in the right direction. Religion must be seen as the superstitious control of fearful people that it truly is.
The irony here is that Sara (hopefully not her real name) would be allowed to speak her mind under Saddam’s old secular rule, but now, if she is identified by the new government, she will be punished for her “heresy,” most likely killed as a result.
Let’s hope Drudge doesn’t “out” her any time soon.
8. CuriousGeorge | March 5th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
The irony here is that Sara (hopefully not her real name) would be allowed to speak her mind under Saddam’s old secular rule,…
Lie of the day. Way to go, Broder…
9. FmrMarine | March 5th, 2008 at 6:19 pm
To the KOOK lefties here;
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
10. LibSweepinNov | March 5th, 2008 at 6:20 pm
Yeah - this is the most tired argument ever. But George Bush was just doing it out of the goodness of his heart. So many things are wrong with this ridiculous argument that have been brought up by others here.
It makes imperialist racist facists like Mark Noonan feel better to think he is doing them a service by bombing them into oblivion. Sad really
11. FmrMarine | March 5th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
>>>>I am rather tired of this republican view of why george went to war in Iraq. <<<<
Actually LAMEBRAIN,
it was the UN, that went to war…not, W
after more than 12 years and dozens of resolutions were ignored by Iraq, a multinational force overthrew the regime of sadam in mere weeks.
Here is what the RATS had to say about it on the lead up……
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNgaVtVaiJE
12. FmrMarine | March 5th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
>>>>It makes imperialist racist facists like Mark Noonan feel better to think he is doing them a service by bombing them into oblivion. Sad really<<<<
Then LEAVE this terrible country !
GO live among the wonderful marxists, and islaminists.
No one will miss your pinko commie A$$!
13. js | March 5th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
what was that that JFK said?
“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. ”
Its not about Bush. Its about the meglomaniacs that call themselves clerics, like OBL, that is the problem in the muslim world. For the most part, the people can not make decisions about right or wrong, its already done for them. Thats not freedom. Thats Islam.
“Freedom is indivisible, and when one man is enslaved, all are not free”
14. LosMechanista | March 5th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
Blah, blah, blah, (defeatist libs), blah, blah, (persecuted catholics), blah, blah, (Victory), blah, blah, (fear), blah, blah.
Bloated rhetoric. Your writing like Almiranta.
Have some guts Noonan. Blog on real issues.
15. FmrMarine | March 5th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
Lost macho
>>>>Have some guts Noonan. Blog on real issues.<<<
Have some guts……..DONT COME HERE !
16. Mark Noonan | March 5th, 2008 at 10:19 pm
Brian Citino,
World police? No, not that - but we must do what we can to make things better, and that will require, from time to time, the application of US military power.
17. Mark Noonan | March 5th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
Los,
Define “real issue” for me…wihtout going into an anti-Bush tirade.
18. Freedom1 | March 6th, 2008 at 12:48 am
America destroyed the tyranny of Saddam Hussein and his bloody Ba’athist regime. Now, some young Iraqis are rejecting the tyranny of Islam. I really, really hope this continues! America has done, and is continuing to do, a very noble deed.
However, I disagree with the generalization that most Muslims would embrace a live and let live philsophy if given the choice. There’s far too much evidence to the contrary to believe that. First and foremost, Islam commands Muslims to be at continuous war with non-Muslims until Islam and Shari’a law rule the world. That’s a fact. Islam is tyranny.
Second, if you look at what millions of Muslims are doing who live in the freedom of Western nations - ie. America, Europe, Canada, Australia, Scandanavia, etc.- you see that these Muslims are actively Islamicizing these Western nations and are actively trying to institute Shari’a law. A couple of examples of Muslims in the West:
France: The 751 “No-Go Zones” (ZUS’s) of France: Daniel Pipes describes what they are:
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/709
Additionally, in France, Muslims are rioting over and over, burning cars, burning elementary schools, torching buses, attacking firefighters, police and now they are escalating their attacks against French police by ambushing them and shooting them in the face with buckshot and nails.
Britain: The Archbishop of Canterbury states that Shari’a law in Britain is inevitable. The UK government is investing in Muslim cleric-sanctioned “Islamic bonds”. British police are being forced to study the Qur’an and learn about Shari’a law. The UK (and Canada’s) governments are now forcing British and Canadian taxpayers to subsidize the increasingly rampant Muslim polygamy. Additionally, the UK police recently reported that approximately 17,000 women and girls in Britain are subjected to “honor killings” and “honor-related violence” EVERY YEAR in the UK.
So much for “peaceful co-existence”.
P.S. Geert Wilders of Denmark is soon to release an anti-Qur’an movie that’s about 15 minutes long. Look for worldwide Muslim riots in which they torch the Danish flag, burn things and possibly kill people. Freedom of speech is an endangered species in the West.
19. Christian Wright | March 6th, 2008 at 7:43 am
“The problem is that the rulers of the Arab world (some of whom, to our shame, we backed in a short-sighted desire for “stability”) are mostly a collection of megalomaniacs who do like killing, war, death, etc., as long as doing such things can perpetuate and increase their power and wealth.”
That is the first time I saw you admit that it is American foreign policy (and not because they hate our freedoms) that Arabs have such hate for the USA. They do not hate Americans, just American policy.
20. js | March 6th, 2008 at 9:10 am
??
Can you point out exactly where he stated that CW? Or are your lips just flapping in the wind “AGAIN”?
Its my understanding that Muslims hate Americans because we are not Muslims more than anything else. They use us when they can, and abuse us the rest of the time, kind of like the way you use Mark.
21. Tractatus | March 6th, 2008 at 11:23 am
Its my understanding that Muslims hate Americans because we are not Muslims more than anything else.
Yeah, but it’s also your “understanding” that Islam, far from being the Abrahamic religion that it actually is, is a pagan cult in which adherents worship a rock named Allah. So you probably shouldn’t be talking about Islam considering that your “understanding” of it is pretty much as ignorant as it can possibly be.
22. FmrMarine | March 6th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
One way to defeat islam;
NEUTRON BOMBS.
eliminate the source, keep the infrastructure intact.
Now, there would be a legitimate source for the mexicans to go to work, after all the oilfields would need millions of workers.