23 Comments

• 1. Canadian Observer  |  March 6th, 2008 at 9:04 am

  Why is the American voting process such a screwed up mess? How did it evolve to become so complicated and so easy to manipulate?

  Other democracies are able to elect governments with little trouble, why not the U.S. of A?

  It may be time to revamp the system and give Americans a chance to experience fair elections.

• 2. djp  |  March 6th, 2008 at 10:41 am

  Democrats all across America in 2004 tried to steal elections - voter fraud was rampant

  What absolute nonsense. “Rampant” voter fraud, indeed. A republican seems to think it is fraudulent for someone to vote for anyone other than a republican.

• 3. Doug  |  March 6th, 2008 at 11:15 am

  djp,

  Go back through the WA state case, it’s a lesson in voting futility. More votes in King County (the Democratic stronghold in the state) than there were people who voted, more people who voted twice and actually had their votes counted and more long dead people who had their votes counted than the difference in the race, city councilmen who happened to have more than a dozen voters living in their garage, more felons who were not allowed to vote having their votes counted than the difference in the race. It all came out to an obvious illegal vote count of 20 times than the vote differential of the candidates - in King County alone. After every recount, the democratic county officials finding even more and more ballots that suddenly materialize from unsecure areas.

  The polls after the election was finally over, said it best, the State’s voters clearly believed that Rossi actually had more legal votes than Gregoire. WA will be going for McCain and Rossi this year - turning red just this once.

• 4. Sunny  |  March 6th, 2008 at 11:57 am

  Both sides have been guilty of voter fraud. It is time that we have a voters ID to vote. All elections should be fair. In this day and age there is no excuse for voter fraud. There needs to be a paper trail. There is no excuse for not having a voters ID, including costs, inability to provide proof of citizenship and the other arguments made to prevent such identification. You cannot get on an airplane with out ID, you cannot cash a check without ID, you cannot even rent a movie with ID. So this is a lame excuse. The companies that manufacture the voting machines need to be held accountable as well. And if a person cannot properly punch a voting card (hanging chads), they are not smart enough to be voting.

• 5. Joe  |  March 6th, 2008 at 12:18 pm

  Doug, there are irregularities all over the place that shouldn’t be in this day and age. To point to WA governor’s race and claim that “Democrats all across America in 2004 tried to steal elections” is at best a complete exaggeration and at worst a flat out lie and a stupid one at that.

  Have you looked at some of the irregularities in Ohio in 2004? The ones where registered Dems outnumbered registered Repubs 2:1 yet Bush won by a 2:1 margin? There are a list of things that went wrong in Ohio in 2004 that all went Bush’s way.

  I’m not here to say it is ok if Dems do something because the Repubs did. I am saying two things. 1) any appearance of voter fraud Dem or Repub should be looked into and we should do everything possible to stop. and 2) Claiming that this fraud is all Dems and not even believing that it goes both ways is just dishonesty from Mark.

  There has to be a better way. With all due respect Sunny, how do you do the voter id? The only way to get it would be to show a driver’s license. Not everyone has one. Not everyone has access to their birth certificate, etc. There should be a better way. A paper trail is FIRST AND FOREMOST the best way to start.

• 6. Robert  |  March 6th, 2008 at 12:43 pm

  “Democrats all across America in 2004 tried to steal elections - voter fraud was rampant and the most disgusting thing about it all was the way Democrats, after losing the Presidential contest, actually had the nerve to claim they were victims of voting irregularities.” - Mark Noonan

  Paranoid Conspiracy theory. BINGO!!!!

  Nice try, Noonan….

  From the man who brought you that great old tune, that timeless classic,

  “I don’t buy conspiracy theories.”

  So, who is the one taking a lesiurely stroll down Kookerville Lane this time, Mark?

  Where are there any actual FACTS to back up the broad generalization of Democrats trying to steal elections??

  Even I don’t necessarily buy that Bush tried to steal elections, yet you apparantly believe that the elusive “THEY” (Democrats) are out to get you and ruin everything good and just with the world.

  Mark, your statements fit the very definitioon of “paranoid conspiracy theory.” But that’s okay, huh, as long as your conspiracy deals with HATING Liberals……

  How very Seabrook Island of you Mark, How very Seabrook Island…. (kudos if you know the source of that phrase)

• 7. Magnum Serpentine  |  March 6th, 2008 at 12:59 pm

  simple facts.

  george stole the election with the help of the inferior supreme court (Which did not have the authority to interfere with a state election) in 2000. In the year 2000, I voted for 1 democrat, President Al Gore, 6 republicans and the rest Libertarian.

  In 2002 I voted 100% Democrat.

  2004 and 2006 I voted 100% Democrat, But in 2008 I may vote for McCain if hillary wins the nomination.

  that is the consequences of voter fraud.

  Its very telling when the Attorney General of Ohio, in 2004 threatened to sue and arrest anyone who challenged the results of the Presidential election in Ohio.

  http://www.freepress.org/columns/display/3/2004/983

  The election in Washington State was as fair as the Election in Florida.

  Live with it.

• 8. Sunny  |  March 6th, 2008 at 1:10 pm

  Doug, realisticly how many US citizens do not have access to their birth certificate or some sort of identificaton? If they do not, why don’t they? I just don’t buy the arugument that in this day and age that millions of US citizens do not have the ability to get their birth certificate. If they were foreign born, they had to have that document before becoming a US citizen. If they don’t have one, my assumption is going to be that they are not in this country legally and therefore should not be allowed to vote. You have to have identification to do just about anything in this country - open a bank account, cash a check, enter school, etc. The argument of no way to prove citizenship just doesn’t cut it. You are right, not everyone has a drivers licenese, but that is one of the poorest forms of identification since there are so many fake ones being made and there are some states that allow illegal aliens get a drivers license. Every state has a system to order a certified copy of your birth certificate if you are US born.

• 9. Joe  |  March 6th, 2008 at 1:21 pm

  Sunny, it was me that questioned everyone having access to birth certificates.
  Sure most people will have it, but I think you’d be VERY surprised how many people don’t have that. Elderly specifically. That just isn’t something that is used that often that it is at everyone’s fingertips.
  Think about things like elderly that have moved into an assisted living complex. Maybe they don’t have a place for personal documents. How about broken homes? Wife leaves the husband or vice versa. Grabbing your birth certificate may be the last thing you think to grab.
  I am from a prefectly good home. When I was in my early 20’s and moving out on my own, I didn’t think to grab my birth certificate. Good thing my parents were still alive, still lived in the same house and still had it.
  Bottom line is… for any number of reasons someone may not have a driver’s licence OR a birth certificate.

• 10. Rich  |  March 6th, 2008 at 2:10 pm

  If a person can make it to the voting station, they can make it to the dmv to get a drivers license or a photo id. Everyone knows the election is November 3rd, they have plenty of time to get this done. If they need assistance, they can go to their local republican or democratic headquarters and I guarantee assistance will be given. If they cannot accomplish this in the next months, tough sh&%, they don’t deserve to vote. Somone in a nursing home that does not have identification or a way to get it does not need to be voting anyways, that spells fraud all over it.

• 11. Cavalor Epthith, Esquire, D.S.V.J.  |  March 6th, 2008 at 2:11 pm

  Democrats all across America in 2004 tried to steal elections - voter fraud was rampant and the most disgusting thing about it all was the way Democrats, after losing the Presidential contest, actually had the nerve to claim they were victims of voting irregularities.–Mark Noonan.

  As a solicitor, I feel that comes a whisker shy of being libelous. Could you possibly offer some proof of any voter fraud or attempts to steal the 2004 elections perpetrated by either political party because that is something I would love to set my staff to writing about.

  In Ohio two judges one appointed by Bush the other by Clinton blocked GOP efforts to have “challengers” in place at the polls. declaring their presence a potential hindrance to or place “an undue burden upon voters.” This pair of court cases from early November of 2004 is well documented.

• 12. Piggy  |  March 6th, 2008 at 2:23 pm

  In Washington state the case was heard in the most right wing county in the state and they still lost.

  So unless right wing judges decided to jump on the Dem bandwagon in 2004. Your entire post is just goo

• 13. Joe  |  March 6th, 2008 at 2:33 pm

  Rich — “Somone in a nursing home that does not have identification or a way to get it does not need to be voting anyways, that spells fraud all over it.”

  Wow. Nice. Their vote doesn’t mean crap, right?
  Look… like it or not… some people would rather spend their $35 on medications or food than spend it on a driver’s license when they don’t drive or on a replacement birth certificate. You are asking people to have to pay a fee in order to vote. if they can’t afford an id, then they can’t vote.

  Umm… I believe that is not the way this nation was built. I believe that was shot down by courts.

  Rich, have you ever volunteered any time working with the elderly? Someone who is 80 yrs old and in a walker has EVERY RIGHT to vote just as much as you do.

• 14. Doug  |  March 6th, 2008 at 3:01 pm

  Piggy, you need to re-read the Washington case. The outcome was basically, you can cast a million illegal votes if you wish because there is no way for us to determine who you voted for, therefore they all have to count - unless you have someone sitting at the polling place where you gave your ballot who at that moment challenges your vote.

  Cavalor, reread my last sentence above and apply it to the court case in Ohio.

  I did not have my birth certificate and had to pay $40 last month to get a certified copy of it.

  Joe at #5, when registered Democrats outnumber Republicans but the Republican wins - that is not an irregularity. That is normal, Republicans have a higher voting turnout. It happens everywhere, including WA state. Irregularities are when the number of votes cast is greater than the number of voters who voted. Irregularities include when non-election officials show up with dozens of ballots they find in a box in their garage. Irregularites also include when 400 people vote from a mailbox stop in Seattle when they are supposed to be registered to vote at their residence. Those are all indictations of voter fraud by individual voters. When Mark says democrats - he likely isn’t referring to the Democratic National Party. However, after the WA state affair, it became very apparant that fraud had occured at the election official level. As the election officials kept putting inept and idiotic U of WA statistic professors on the stand who lied out their backside on simple math - it became an attempt at fraudently resolving the court case.

  I do believe the outcome was that King County got rid of their head election official and the Federal prosecutor in charge of looking at if there was fraud was fired for not doing his job.

• 15. Joe  |  March 6th, 2008 at 3:23 pm

  Doug, especially in where the incumbant wasn’t a shoe-in, having the results be completely opposite of the registered people is almost statistically impossible.
  How about this one? — Franklin County’s unofficial results had Bush receiving 4,258 votes to Democrat John Kerry’s 260 votes in a precinct in Gahanna. Records show only 638 voters cast ballots in that precinct.
  There are a list of irregularities that occurred.

  Anyway… This is not the place to re-hash the 2004 election, but Google “Ohio 2004 President voting irregularities”.

  Still…. blaming it all on Dems or blaming it all on Repubs is not the point. I am just saying that Mark’s comments that “Democrats all across America in 2004 tried to steal elections” is just flat out stupid.

  The bottom line is that there has to be a better way to do our voting. Paper trail is the least we can do to make this process better.

• 16. Piggy  |  March 6th, 2008 at 3:54 pm

  Doug,
  You really want to bring up why the AG was fired in the State of Washington? Really? He brought the case in the most right wing county in the state and no fraud was proven.

  King County election head, quit and now I believe is running Los Angeles.

  So in your little fantasies, good luck with California.

  And yes Washington does have paper ballots that is how Rossi lost, they counted the paper ballots and he came out the loser.

• 17. Sunny  |  March 6th, 2008 at 4:23 pm

  Joe, as long as you know the city/town you were born in, the state and year, you can get a certified copy of your birth certificate for the Bureau of Statistics. No matter how old you are, they have the records. So there are very few that have that problem. And most of those living in nursing homes are incapable of voting anyway. I would be quite surprised if many in nursing homes have the ability to vote. So, I still do not think that is a legitimate argument for not requiring ID to vote.

• 18. Joe  |  March 6th, 2008 at 4:53 pm

  Fair enough. I just think if you force someone to (in effect) pay a fee (i.e. get some form of id) to be able to vote and the courts will shut that down.

• 19. Doug  |  March 6th, 2008 at 11:48 pm

  Piggy, the AG wasn’t fired, the federal prosecutor was (who had nothing to do with bringing up the case in Chelan county, which by the way isn’t the most conservative county in the state). If you recall the firing of the prosecutors was big news that the liberals didn’t like.

  Joe, don’t give me crap numbers, the official results of the Ohio election shows that the most votes Bush received in any of the Gahanna precincts was 484. If there were more votes than voters, that is an irregularity - it actually happened in great numbers in King County, giving Gregoire the win - but those numbers in Gahanna precincts don’t show it.

• 20. Mark Noonan  |  March 7th, 2008 at 1:51 am

  Joe,

  Only in the paranoid mind of the left were there irregularities in Ohio in 2004…meanwhile, Democrats were stuffing ballot boxes with absentee ballots and paying bums with packs of smokes to vote Democrat….

• 21. Robert  |  March 7th, 2008 at 3:14 am

  “Democrats were stuffing ballot boxes with absentee ballots and paying bums with packs of smokes to vote Democrat…”

  BINGO!!!!

  Another paranoid conspiracy theory!!!!

  Where, oh where is your PROOF, Marky-Boy?

  Where, oh where has that little sheep gone…..ooops, Mark is right here….

  Mark’s world view is that everyone is paranoid except for him (If they are Liberal)…..

  Oh Marky, look out behind you….

  There’s a bum waiting to give you a pack of cigarettes to get you to vote for the Giant Pink Elephant….

  Geeesh, and you have the AUDACITY to say I and others here are paranoid……

  Help, help the paranoids are trying to get me….

  Help, help, G.W. Bush save me from the Liberal paranoids….

• 22. phnx  |  March 7th, 2008 at 1:14 pm

  Robert, ther follwoing is provided for your edification:

  ABC finally gave some extended broadcast network air time Monday night to the charges that Gore-Lieberman operatives got homeless men in Milwaukee to vote by promising them cigarettes. ABC reporter Brian Ross picked up on the week-old WISN-TV story, but then advanced it by tracking down in New York City the wealthy Democrat who financed the operation. She insisted to Ross: “I am an ordinary Park Avenue matron.”

  (Last week both ABC and NBC offered brief mentions of the Milwaukee vote buying charge.)

  World News Tonight anchor Peter Jennings reviewed the close vote tallies in states other than Florida, including the Gore win by just 6,122 votes in Wisconsin where charges of irregularities have been made. Ross began his piece by reporting how Marquette University students boasted that they voted twice or even four times. The campus paper, he related, found 141 students who voted more than once and didn’t think the felony was that big of a deal.

  Ross moved on to the homeless maneuver: “Also under investigation, allegations that the Gore campaign used cigarettes to get residents of homeless shelters to vote.”
  Michael McCann, District Attorney: “That’s a criminal act if it’s proven. It’s bribery.”
  Ross: “The ABC affiliate in Milwaukee caught Gore campaign workers handing out cigarettes to homeless residents after they had been brought to a polling place to vote.”
  Connie Milstein: “I’m here representing the Gore-Lieberman campaign. I’m chairman of the Major Supporters Committee.”
  Ross: “Connie Milstein, a major Gore supporter and the wife of a New York multimillionaire, told the station she had been asked by the Gore campaign to come to Milwaukee.”
  Milstein: “Wisconsin is a very key state for the Democratic Party.”
  Ross: “The district attorney says there is evidence that the Democratic group went to at least three homeless shelters where residents said cigarettes were used to get them to vote. Willie Jackson voted for the first time.”
  Jackson said something, but you’d need an ebonics translation to know what.
  Ross caught Milstein in Manhattan: “Today outside her Park Avenue home in New York, Mrs. Milstein said she had done nothing wrong.”
  Milstein: “Brian, let me just say one thing. I am an ordinary Park Avenue matron.”
  Ross: “Why were you in Milwaukee?”
  Milstein: “I was there as an ordinary campaign worker.”
  Ross concluded: “Mrs. Milstein would not say who sent her to Milwaukee, and the Democratic Party maintains she went to the homeless shelters on her own.”

  4

• 23. Karen  |  April 23rd, 2008 at 8:35 pm

  Democrats steal elections? That’s funny - look at Gore vs Bush.

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