A Concise Description of the Israeli-Palestinian War
March 7th, 2008 at 10:10am Mark Noonan
From Jonah Goldberg over at NRO’s The Corner:
The news over the seminary shooting in Israel broke after I put today’s column to bed. But the slaughter, and the reaction to it, is a perfect illustration of why discussion of Israel is so confused. A Palestinian opens fire on mostly teenage students studying in a library. The Hamas government in Gaza applauds the shooting and Palestinians take to the street to celebrate. Meanwhile, human rights groups say that Israel must continue to supply water, electricity and healthcare to the same Palestinians rejoicing in the street. To do otherwise is “collective punishment.” Propping up an enemy committed to your total destruction just strikes me as total folly. What the best alternative is, I have no idea.
Neatly encapsulates it, if you ask me. I’m off for a bit, but I’ll have something to add later.
Entry Filed under: War on Terror
37 Comments
1. kjstrouble | March 7th, 2008 at 10:22 am
I could not agree more, Mark. And this is not a recent process. Ask any Isreali and they will tell you that they have had to fight to survive since the days of the Mandate.
2. Retired Spook | March 7th, 2008 at 10:37 am
What the best alternative is, I have no idea.
Surely Jonah has “some” idea. Untying the one hand tied behind their collective backs would a start. Until the Israelis decide that the only solution is to actually win, even if it means slaughtering every last Palestinian, I can’t feel the least bit sorry for them. Interestingly, this is the same mindset that John Kerry had in 2004 when he said he wanted to get back to the point where terrorism was just a minor inconvenience (or something like that).
3. kjstrouble | March 7th, 2008 at 10:43 am
Spook,
The Isreali’s are not a people who believe in slaughtering an entire nation. With their history, that would never work. But the “land for peace” concept has not worked either. Personally, I think they should be able to embargo all items going into the Gaza (or West Bank if need be) that has to come thru Isreal first. Other nations border both areas, let them deal with the problems. Jordanians may remember what it almost cost them to try and deal with the Palestinian militants (Black October anyone).
4. Almiranta | March 7th, 2008 at 10:45 am
It seems to me that a lot of political agendas are masquarading as “human rights groups”.
As for what I call the Monkey Dance of Joy, seen over and over as murderous thugs celebrate the deaths of innoncents, I wonder when we are going to figure out that we need to take action against those who support mindless slaughter.
We continued to send millions/billions to countries which openly celebrated 9/11, we allowed foreign “students” who were openly gleeful about the deaths of thousands to remain, and now we expect Israel to provide services to those who plot against its people.
I’m starting to think of “human rights” as just more GroupThink, as it seems to concentrate on groups and ignore the rights of individuals.
And I’m still waiting for Muslim groups and mullahs, or even individual Muslims, to step up and denounce this for the cowardly butchery it is. Once again, the silence is deafening……..
5. Bigfoot | March 7th, 2008 at 10:54 am
human rights groups say that Israel must continue to supply water, electricity and healthcare to the same Palestinians rejoicing in the street. To do otherwise is “collective punishment.”
The irony is that Hamas’ terrorism itself is collective punishment for their purported grievances against Israel, as they launch rockets at any Israeli Jew within reach, and send suicide bombers to kill any Israel Jews they can find. If Hamas, the Hezbigots, etc., would launch their rockets solely at IDF bases, equipment or personnel, then they and their apologists might have a legitimate complaint.
6. js | March 7th, 2008 at 11:08 am
One of the things Bush will be remembered for is that they can no longer make UNSC resolutions condemning the actions of Israel when they ignore these constant attacks that Israel has to respond to.
That didnt change the General Assembly from doing it though (even thought the GA has little actual impact). The Block of Islamic nations band together in thier attacks on Isreal in the UN, violating the very spirit of that institutions creation.
Israel should have annexed both the West Bank and Gaza, and deported every Arab that aided in, and/or held arms against, Israel. That would have settled the refugee problems completely.
7. Joe | March 7th, 2008 at 11:28 am
Spook — Until the Israelis decide that the only solution is to actually win, even if it means slaughtering every last Palestinian
I see where you are coming from, but that is like saying that in the “Global War on Terror” you want to kill every last terrorist.
You kill a terrorist and you risk that you grow 2 more.
If, you could somehow “slaughter every last Palestinian”, then great. They are gone… now you have every nation that backed them even more against you. So you got rid of what… 200k. You now have 20mil against you.
8. Retired Spook | March 7th, 2008 at 11:36 am
Spook, The Isreali’s are not a people who believe in slaughtering an entire nation.
KJ, I don’t disagree with you, but therein lies the problem. Israel is dealing with an entity that DOES want to slaughter every single Jew. I realize evil can never be completely defeated, at least not in this life, but simply trying to contain evil just leads to more evil acts.
The other possibility is, as JS suggests, annexation of Gaza and the West Bank and deporting every single Arab that takes up arms against them. Logistically, though, that would be a tough nut to crack. As I’ve said a number of times before, the current strife will continue for generation after generation until one side decides to win.
9. Retired Spook | March 7th, 2008 at 11:39 am
now you have every nation that backed them even more against you.
I doubt that the Arab world could possibly be “even more against” Israel, but, if indeed, that’s possible, so what?
10. Joe | March 7th, 2008 at 11:44 am
When I say “even more against”…. There are Arab nations that just deal with Israel. They don’t like them, but they deal with them. Now you are talking about making them hate them to the point of attacking.
So what? Umm… I don’t know about you, but I don’t want to see a world war started and certainly not one on the scale that this would be on.
11. Darva Conger | March 7th, 2008 at 11:53 am
I understood just a few short months ago that Vice President Condi Rice was going to get this all finished up before George W. Bush left office.
12. Michael | March 7th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Look, all you need to do is talk to the leaders of all the terrorist groups without pre-conditions and they can be persuaded to halt their attacks and live in peace. So sayeth Obama the peacemaker.
13. js | March 7th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
from the hamas charter pre-amble;
—————————–
‘Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will
obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.’
——————-
I dont think there is a nation in the world that needs to negotiate with this premise in existence.
Under international law, these arab people have been conduction a war against Israel, committing war crimes by attacking civilians, and nothing is being done about it at the UN.
The UN if a joke. It stands for United Nothing. Its entire purpose is to serve the wants and needs of the block of selfish nations banding together under the Islamic theme.
There are no United Nations. Its just a poor excuse of a once noble cause.
14. sam | March 7th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
The thing that all americans and not just conservatives, but american in general don’t understand is that the war would STOP, if Israel withdrew to the pre 1967 borders.
If it does that, there will be no more incentive to attack or destroy israel. As long as there are israeli occupation troops and settlements in historically arab lands, then it won’t work.
Its an easy choice for Israel, withdraw and have peace, or stay and have permament war with those around you.
15. Anonymous Coward | March 7th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
sam does this:
indicate that the war will stop if Israel withdraws? No, Hamas will continue harassing Israel until it is destroyed.
16. Retired Spook | March 7th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
The thing that all americans and not just conservatives, but american in general don’t understand is that the war would STOP, if Israel withdrew to the pre 1967 borders.
Sam, with all due respect, you’re just full of sh*t!
You are either very young or have a very short memory.
Yeah, that worked really well — NOT!
17. phnx | March 7th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
“The thing that all americans and not just conservatives, but american in general don’t understand is that the war would STOP, if Israel withdrew to the pre 1967 borders.
If it does that, there will be no more incentive to attack or destroy israel. As long as there are israeli occupation troops and settlements in historically arab lands, then it won’t work.” Sam you are naive.
Withdrawl to the ‘67 border will then lead to demands to withdraw to the ‘48 demarcation, which will lead to withdrawls to the ‘33 demarcation, whcih will lead to complete withdrawl of all Isrealis from the middle east.
“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it.” Just what is it about this statement that you don’t understand? Have you read the Consitution of Hamas? Show me where it promises to cease hostilities and make peace with Isreal as soon as they withdraw the the ‘67 border.
I don’t believe it is necessary to slaughter every last Palestinian as some have suggested. But I do believe that if Isreal makes it too painful to continue for Hamas to continue that some degree of peace can be maintained. In this case peace meaning the absence of conflict. I do not believe that Jews and Palestinians can ever live in tranquility and harmony together.
18. Dennis | March 7th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
Sam, you touched on it on post 14 but didn’t go deep enough. Why do Hezbollah (or Hamas or Islam, take your pick) wish to see Israel destroyed? This kind of hatred does not rise out of nothing.
A cause does not equal an excuse - the killing of innocents is always a tragedy and a crime. But to see this event out of the context of history is to assure just one thing: that the bloodshed will continue.
As for why the hatred exists? It is simple - in 1948 Zionist forces uprooted and drove over 800,000 Palestinians from their villages as part of a long-standing plan to manufacture an ethnically pure Jewish state. This is a matter of record.
Of course the event has been expunged from Israel’s official history, but there are people still living in the West Bank who experienced the Nakba - the Catastrophe, as it is referred to in the collective Palestinian memory.
The expulsion was accompanied by mass killings and scorched-earth tactics in which Palestinian villages were blown into rubble and trees planted over them so that their very traces would be forgotten. Not just the people were destroyed, but the very memory of them.
Israeli historian Ilan Pappe’s book “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine” opens the issue to the world after decades of denial; he summarizes: “When it created its nation-state, the Zionist movement did not wage a war that `tragically but inevitably’ led to the expulsion of `parts of’ the indigenous population, but the other way round: the main goal was the ethnic cleansing of all of Palestine, which the movement coveted for its new state.”
He concludes this was “a clear-cut case of an ethnic cleansing operation, regarded under international law today as a crime against humanity.” see http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1851684670
In the decades since 1948 Israel has ALWAYS killed many more Palestinians, than Israelis have been killed by terror attacks. In recent decades the ratio has been about 3:1. To put the seminary shooting in context, eight students were killed. It was senseless murder, but it followed the killing of 120 Palestinians in Gaza. Yes, Israel was retailating against terror attacks, but those attacks were reprisals against other killings. The cycle is endless, and will remain so until basic injustices are addressed.
The great irony here is that Israel’s sole claim to legitimacy has always been its presumed moral superiority. Yet there is really no moral superiority to claim. All hands are bloody. If the US is to be an effective arbiter for peace we first have to acknowledge the legitimate historical grievances of the Palestinian people, and take an even-handed approach.
The world turns a blind eye to similar neocolonial pursuits - Indonesia in western New Guinea, Sudan in Darfur, Armenia in Azerbeijan. But in those cases no one is making claims to legitimacy for land grabs or ethnic cleansing on “moral superiority”.
In the case of Israel, somehow the mythologizers have ended up writing our foreign policy while the Arab world grows angrier and angrier at the injustice of it all. All this is the greatest factor contributing to radical Islam’s huge resurgence. So much more could be said - it is a complex subject; it is tragic, morally wrong and dangerous to frame things so simply, and to put all our eggs in Israel’s basket, as most Americans do.
19. David B. Schmidt | March 7th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
You did know that the “Palestinians” could have had their own country back in 1948 had they accepted the UN sponsored partition plan which gave Israel AND the Palestinians countries of their own. On land which Jews had lived on for thousands of years before Mohammed. The Arabs rejected the UN offer and went to war with the infant Israeli nation. The Arabs lost and have been whining about it ever since.
Are you aware that the Disputed Territories never belonged to the “Palestinians” and only came into Israeli possession as a result of the 1967 six day war in which Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon all massed forces at Israel’s border in order to “push the Jews into the sea”. The Arabs lost and Israel took control of the land.
Israel resettled and absorbed all of the Jews from Arab countries who wished to become Israelis. Why haven’t any Arab countries offered to resettle Arabs who were displaced from Israel, leaving them to rot for 60 years in squalid refugee camps? And why are those refugee camps still there? Could it be that the billions of dollars that the UNWRA has sent there goes to terrorist groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, El Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, or Hezbollah? How did Yassir Arafat achieve his $300 million in wealth? Why aren’t these funds distributed for humanitarian use?
BTW, The Arabs in the disputed territories (conquered by Israel in the 1967 war which was started by Arabs) and who are not Israelis already have two countries right now? They are called Egypt and Jordan
Can you tell us ANY Arab country which offers Jews the right to be citizens, vote, own property, businesses, be a part of the government or have ANY of the rights which Israeli Arabs enjoy? Any Arab country which gives those rights to Christians? How about to other Arabs?
20. LibSweepinNov | March 7th, 2008 at 5:23 pm
the thing is - you simply cannot treat the Palestinian people that way. Yes - there are horrible terrorist organizations which need to be brought to justice. But the idea that you can punish the entire Palestinian people (99% which have nothing to do with rocket attacks, suicide bombs, etc) for the actions of a few is just ridiculous. Its just ludicrous that you argue that they shouldn’t have to give them water, sanitation, education. Either they are citizens of Isreal or you let them be an independent country.
So by your logic the next time an IRA bomb goes off - England can just send missles into Belfast and turn off the water, electricity, heat, and so forth for all of Northern Ireland?
21. js | March 7th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
14. sam | March 7th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
“The thing that all americans and not just conservatives, but american in general don’t understand is that the war would STOP, if Israel withdrew to the pre 1967 borders. ”
Im so sick of ignorant statements like this.
Sam, go away. Lie to your mother, but stop posting these lies here. Nobody wants to hear them.
22. phnx | March 7th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
Dennis,
Arab Muslim hate for the Jews started long before the ‘67 war of the ‘48 war. Google 1929 Hebron massacre, or 1929 Safed massacre.
In the summer of 1929, a long-running dispute between Muslims and Jews over access to the Western Wall in Jerusalem escalated, and erupted into a series of violent demonstrations and riots in late August. During the week of riots, 133 Jews were killed and 339 wounded (mostly by Arabs);
In Hebron, Arab mobs killed 65-68 Jews, and wounded 58. When the massacre ended, the surviving Jews were forced to leave their homeand were evacuated by the British, while their property was seized by the Arab residents and occupied by them until after the Six Day War of 1967
You are naive to believe that all will be sweetness and light if the Isrealis withdraw to the ‘67 or ‘48 lines.
23. Dennis | March 7th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
David, Sephardic Jews and Christians lived as minorities alongside Arabs in the region of Palestine for many generations. The “old” Jews still live in Israel today but are still generally treated as second-class citizens. The ethnic makeup of modern Israel is largely Ashkenazi and Khazar, from Eastern Europe. Their ancestors were converts to Judaism in the 6th century BC, but they had no territorial claim to Palestine by ancestry.
As for the UN - in 1947 it was two years old, and had no real power to settle such matters as the Palestine Mandate. UNSCOP (the Committe for Palestine) had zero experience in resolving conflicts and knew nothing of Palestinian history. Their partition resolution ignored the ethnic composition of the region, dividing Palestine into parts that no side accepted. The rights of the native population were ignored and the ambitions of the Zionists were not realized. With Britain’s withdrawal, the stalemate became a power vacuum that David Ben Gurion wasted no time acting upon.
The neighboring Arabs were no obstacle to Palestine’s ethnic cleansing or any threat to Israel. The Zionists were a minority but well-armed, cold-blooded and driven by their ideology. David Ben Gurion stated in his diaries, “We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”
This provides much-needed context for later statements of Palestinians such as Yasser Arafat, who later said “We plan to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian state. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion.”
It is tit for tat, and has been that way for a very long time. Vladimir Jabotinsky wrote in his 1923 essay The Iron Wall: “We cannot give any compensation for Palestine, neither to the Palestinians nor to other Arabs. Therefore, a voluntary agreement is inconceivable. All colonization, even the most restricted, must continue in defiance of the will of the native population. Therefore, it can continue and develop only under the shield of force which comprises an Iron Wall which the local population can never break through. This is our Arab policy.”
The Arabs were not consulted or compensated when Britain decided to give their ancestral lands away. It was a world-class injustice that never has been righted. And perceptions remain grotesquely lopsided. Today many know about the Munich Olympics terror attacks - there was a movie about it last year - but nobody knows about Sabra and Shatila. These were Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon where literally thousands - the old and infirm along with infants - were slaughtered in 1982 by Phalangist militia, in an operation orchestrated by Ariel Sharon and overseen by Israeli Defense Forces. They also were innocent, but the world hardly noticed.
The perception of Palestinians as cold-blooded killers and Israel as innocent victims has been very carefully constructed and promoted, and enjoys great success everywhere - including on this blog. But the facts are much more complicated - and until we reckon with the same historical reality the Arabs have seared into their DNA, we will only make matters worse.
24. phnx | March 7th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
Dennis historical perspective is important. Perhpaps we can put todays events in context by considering that in the early 11th century, the Egyptian Fatimid Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah ordered the destruction of all churches and synagogues in Jerusalem. There were no Palestinians then. And we should also consider Muhammed’s massacre of the jews in 628. The Jews have a longer ancestral claim to Isreal than the Palestinians.
25. Dennis | March 7th, 2008 at 8:57 pm
phnx, I never said anything about the 1967 lines - that was somebody else.
My point is, there are no clean hands on any side. And until we stop playing favorites and recognize the whole historical reality, including the legitimate historical grievances of the Palestinians, the peace process will never go anywhere.
And we must acknowledge these factors as an antecedent, and in large part a cause, of Islamic resentment toward the west.
26. Dennis | March 7th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
Phx, I just saw your last post - forget the 11th century. There are people living in Gaza right now who remember the Nakba. It is not ancient history for them.
And perhaps if Americans took time to study what life is actually like in Gaza, it might provide more immediate motivation to seek redress.
Sorry I am out of here for dinner - i will look for your reply later
27. phnx | March 7th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
Dennjs, the point of citing the 12 th century and the 7th Century is that the jewish/muslim hatred stems from the begining of the rise of Islam in the 7th Century. Ignore it if you wish but it is fundemental to an understanding of the Middle East. The following texts are found in the Koran and the Hadith, both sacred books to Muslims:
The resurrection of the dead will not come until the Muslims will war with the Jews and the Muslims will kill them; … the trees and rocks will say, “O Muslim, O Abdullah, here is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.”
Ignominy shall be their portion [the Jews’] wheresoever they are found… They have incurred anger from their Lord, and wretchedness is laid upon them… because they disbelieve the revelations of Allah and slew the Prophets wrongfully… because they were rebellious and used to transgress.
And thou wilt find them [the Jews] the greediest of mankind.
Taste ye [Jews] the punishment of burning.
Because of the wrongdoing of the Jews…. And of their taking usury … and of their devouring people’s wealth by false pretenses. We have prepared for those of them who disbelieve a painful doom.
Allah hath cursed them [the Jews] for their disbelief.
They [the Jews] will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is clear from what they say, but more violent is the hatred which their breasts conceal.
In truth the disbelievers are an open enemy to you.
And thou seest [Jews and Christians] vying one with another in sin and transgression and their devouring of illicit gain. Verily evil is what they do. Why do not the rabbis and the priests forbid their evilspeaking and their devouring of illicit gain? …. evil is their handiwork.
O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for friends.
The most vehement of mankind in hostility [are] the Jews and the idolators.
Fight against such of those [Jews and Christians] … until they pay for the tribute readily, being brought low.
Allah fighteth against them [the Jews]. How perverse they are!
Believers, many are the rabbis and the monks who defraud men of their possessions… Proclaim a woeful punishment to those that hoard up gold and silver and do not spend it in Allah’s cause…. their treasures shall be heated in the fire of Hell
They [the Jews] spread evil in the land
[The Jews] knowingly perverted [the word of Allah], know of nothing except lies … commit evil and become engrossed in sin
******
How do you suppose that there can be peace with a people who accept these words as coming from the prophet of God?
You will find no such teachings in any other religion.
28. Uncommon | March 7th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
Phnx - so then it is your contention that since Native Americans “have a longer ancestral claim” to the United States than European settlers we should/should have let them have their land and left them in peace. I agree but instead we used Spook’s idea of extermination because their outrage and murdering of settlers was kind of inconvenient. I have a better idea - since the Mexicans have a ancestral claim to Texas and southern California then we should go ahead and give that to them as well. I know it is off subject but think before you type. And I would like someone to present a well argued response to Dennis because right now, he is wiping the floor with you Zionist sympathizers.
29. js | March 7th, 2008 at 11:05 pm
23. Dennis | March 7th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
“Sephardic Jews and Christians lived as minorities alongside Arabs in the region of Palestine for many generations”
That is another lie. The Jews and Christians were dhimmi. They were, effectively, slaves to muslim arabs for centuries, not a simple minority.
30. js | March 7th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
There are no such people as palestinians. The Philistines became an extinct culture thousands of years ago. Thier language, cuture, and history is lost forever.
Those who claim to be palestinians are immigrants from arab nations. They did not come from this region except for the displacement of Israel and Judah. There has been Jews living in Israel, with a distinct language and culture, that has survived for 3500 years. During that time, there has not been a capital of any nation in the region except the Capital of Israel.
They are not more than thieves in the end. Arabs by blood right, liars by fact.
31. js | March 7th, 2008 at 11:14 pm
http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/pdf/biglies.pdf
32. phnx | March 7th, 2008 at 11:17 pm
Uncommon,
If you had half a brain, you’d know that the ancestral claim is what the Palestinians claim over Isreal. The point of going back in time to 628 is to show how ridiculous that claim is, and to illustrate that the first recorded massacre was of Jew by Muslims. But of course this is too complex for you to comprehend.
I for one do not see how there can ever be peace between the two. At best there will be an uneasy stalemate.
33. js | March 7th, 2008 at 11:29 pm
There will be no stalemate. The rising drums of war sound of the approach of the anti christ. He is a muslim.
He will be soundly defeated, and the corpses of his soldiers will feed vultures and jackals for a year, the great feast provided by the Lord.
1/3 of the world are muslims. Satan enjoys being worshipped by so many, like he were God Himself. He sit high above the congregations of men, who call him allah. little do they know….
34. Mark Noonan | March 8th, 2008 at 3:03 am
Sam,
Nice theory - but the Palestine Liberation Organization was formed PRIOR to the 1967 war…in other words, the “Palestine” it proposes to liberate includes Tel Aviv.
35. Blogs For Victory »&hellip | March 8th, 2008 at 9:08 am
[…] I noted the rather intractable nature of the Israeli-Palestinian war and offered that I would be back later […]
36. js | March 8th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
Zahir Muhse’in, member of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) Executive Committee, said the following in a 1977 interview with the Amsterdam-based newspaper Trouw. “The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people’ to oppose Zionism.”
http://www.stanfordreview.org/Archive/Volume_XL/Issue_4/Opinions/opinions4.shtml
37. FmrMarine | March 8th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
JS
BINGO YOU are 100% correct.