Interview With a College Student
March 23rd, 2008 at 04:17pm Mark Noonan
Edgar Anderson over at Minding the Campus interviews a University of California San Diego student:
Q. Justice.
A. I liked that quarter best because all it was about were Supreme Court cases like affirmative action and Brown v. Board… My teaching assistant, who you have in discussions twice a week, was crazy. I remember one day she was talking about how there should be affirmative action in terms of who becomes a Fortune 500 CEO and that they should require that a certain percent of all CEOs in Fortune 500 companies be women. I said I disagree, “Who’s to say that a woman is going to be a better CEO than a man? Let’s be honest, you know, a lot of women don’t become CEOs because most women choose to not work as much ’cause you have no life if you’re a CEO to raise a family or anything.” But she said, “How can you be a woman and think that? That’s totally wrong. That’s what’s wrong with women in our society because we need affirmative action to get ahead.” She was unbelievable.
When we talked about investment bankers and people who worked in finance… she said, “Well, I hate investment bankers anyway, I hate them, I hate their whole attitude.” And she went on and on how they’re terrible people…
Q. So Imagination. What is that?
A. I really don’t know. I had no idea what was going on in that class. And even the TA said she had no idea what it was about…
Q. But did you have reading lists?
A. Yeah, I have the book. You’d spend a week on Vonnegut or similar writing, or the next week it’d be about graffiti, and another week it’d be immigration, and another week it’d be Vietnam. It wasn’t tied together at all, so we never ended up with anything.
But I remember for graffiti the professor said how pretty much we don’t understand that it’s an art form, and it’s just a misunderstanding why people don’t like graffiti and why police try to cover it up. She said that people are just trying to express themselves, and she never went into how it was vandalism or anything like that.
When we talked about the entertainment industry and the show The L-Word, she said that having straight actresses portray lesbians was the same as white people painting themselves black. And so I don’t think that anyone agreed with her on that…
Do read the whole thing as it neatly illustrates both the worthlessness of most modern liberal arts education, as well as the closed mind and leftwing bigotry prevalant at all too many colleges and universities. Can you imagine a graffiti professor? Can you imagine a teacher taking issue with the position of a paper rather than the quality of the argument? Also, for someone to say they “hate” a certain class of people - I thought colleges were supposed to be the home of broad minded people? Of course, we know better - they aren’t. The far left gained control starting in the late 60’s, and these days intellectual inquiry is nearly dead on campus.
On the bright side, this student was clearly not fooled - and she relates that a lot of her classmates also saw through the scam. On the dark side, a lot of students probably do fall for it - the intellectually incurious and the apple-polishers always willing to please probably buy the whole thing…and thus get the best grades, become TA’s and eventually become professors or employees of other (mostly government-subsidised, as colleges and universities are) leftwing bastions, ready to put another generation on the treadmill of leftwing political orthodoxy.
My bet is that a majority aren’t fooled - going along with Lincoln’s dictum that you can’t fool all of the people all of the time. But, still, the time spent being indoctrinated in liberal/left orthodoxy is time spent away from learning the truth, so the overall effect is a loss for our society. Not believing the lies, but lacking the truth, people can be at a loss for what to do, and can often fall for leftwing ideas if they are dressed up with a dose of conservatism to make the Marxist poison go down. We see the result of all of this here on the blogs, and out in the larger world - the complete propagandised leftist robots who just rote repeat what their professors spoon-fed them, and the people who weren’t fooled but don’t know the truth, and are wary of taking it from a conservatism heavily demonised by their education experience.
What to do? My view is that our best option is to de-fund liberal arts education at the federal level…no college loans or grants for it. A rather harsh step, but the primary thing we’d be de-funding is really just leftwing propaganda on campus. Force colleges to choose between lefty indoctrination and having actual paying students, the colleges will mostly drop the liberal arts courses…save for those few which are so popular that the kids are willing to pony up for them on their own (and my further bet is that such a devastation of liberal arts would allow center and right people to enter the field on a competitive basis…see who gets the more students: a course on American history taught by a conservative, or a course on Herstory taught by a bitter feminist…)
Entry Filed under: Kook Left, Popular Culture, Social Issues
70 Comments Add your own
1. Rana Quijotesca | March 23rd, 2008 at 5:33 pm
First of all… I read through the article, and the student said that, though the TA obviously disagreed with the paper, he/she still gave it an A, so it wasn’t graded based on the position. Secondly, it is telling that this was a Teaching Assistant (aka: a grad student and not a tenured professor)… TAs tend to be more stupid than professors…
Now… you want to defund all “liberal arts” education? Let’s see what that would affect at the school I’m most familiar with (UGA):
Anthropology, Sociology, Political Science, Economics (also available in BBA), Mathematics (also available in BS), Social Work, History, International Affairs, Psychology, Philosophy, Religion, Environmental Design, Languages (Romance [individual and general], Slavic, Arabic, Ancient Hebrew, Eastern, African, etc), Linguistics, Education, English.
Funding is divvied up by Department, not by degrees, so not only would cuts to liberal arts education cut in to skills that people in other disciplines should have (such as logic and writing skills), but it would cut many programs that serve as stepping stones for Law Degrees and other useful things in society.
In my personal experience (almost done with BAs in Political Science [a moderate to liberal faculty] and Economics [a conservative {at least Classical Liberal Economically} faculty]). Of all of the professors I have had, the most opinionated during class hours have been those in the Economics Department. The most opinionated Political Science Professor was a self-admitted moderate Conservative.
I am not going to say that my experience is representative of all colleges, but I am going to say that your view, based on instances that are cherry-picked because they coincide with your preconceived notions.
Liberals aren’t the only ones hurting education… For example, the Republican Secretary of Education of Georgia has gone on record saying that Critical Thinking isn’t a necessary skill… In my state… we are training people to be spoon-fed points of view that are not to be questioned… and Republicans are mostly to blame…
2. Rana Quijotesca | March 23rd, 2008 at 5:37 pm
lol… that should say
“…coincide with your preconceived notions, aren’t either.”
and the second sentence in the 4th paragraph should be part of the first: “In my personal experience (almost done with BAs in Political Science [a moderate to liberal faculty] and Economics [a conservative {at least Classical Liberal Economically} faculty]), of all of the professors I have had, the most opinionated during class hours have been those in the Economics Department.”
could have been written better, but whatever.
3. congressive | March 23rd, 2008 at 5:44 pm
This is a perfect example of right wing arrogance.
The term ‘liberal arts’ designated the education proper to a freeman (Latin libera, “free”) as opposed to a slave.
Elitist, arrogant, lazy, egomaniacal neocons want to return to a master/slave-class society.
Eliminate lower and middle class people’s access to a university education including the liberal arts and what do you get?
The dark ages, where once again Catholicism rules the earth (and the ensuing plague, bookburning, inquisitions and powerful demigods in big hats).
This is a horrible, horrible thing to even suggest.
For those uninformed about the nature of liberal arts, see WIKIPEDIA or the website of your choice, where you’ll find liberal arts include:
theology
literature
languages
philosophy
history
mathematics
logic
science
All things Mark wants to see taken away from all young men and women stupid enough to have been born into a poor family.
4. andrew | March 23rd, 2008 at 6:02 pm
The liberal in “liberal arts” is meant to imply given freely, a basic part of education, not linked to a particular major. It doesn’t have anything to do with politics. That’s why completely neutral subjects like chemistry and math can fall into a liberal arts program.
If you want to denounce a politically liberal college atmosphere, denounce speciific departments or classes.
Just because it contains a word you don’t like, doesn’t mean it is what you don’t like.
Denouncing a liberal arts program is saying you don’t believe every student should have a wide basic set of required classes. That college should be narrower and more focused on a students major.
5. » Interview With a &hellip | March 23rd, 2008 at 6:09 pm
[…] Detik Musik wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerptWhat to do? My view is that our best option is to de-fund liberal arts education at the federal level…no college loans or grants for it. […]
6. phnx | March 23rd, 2008 at 6:16 pm
“Elitist, arrogant, lazy, egomaniacal neocons want to return to a master/slave-class society. ”
Congressive, care to provide any evidence to prove this moronic statements are true?
7. Mark Noonan | March 23rd, 2008 at 6:21 pm
congressive,
That is what Wikipedia says - but the reality is that anything outside the hard sciences is considered liberal arts these days - so, match and science wouldn’t be de-funded…and, I’d prefer not to do it, but I can’t see any other way to pry the hard left out of their control of liberal arts. They don’t deserve such control on their merits, and even if they were teaching anything worthwhile, there is no justification for one worldview being predominant at a univsersity or college which receives a substantial proportion of its funding via taxpayer dollars.
You should undersatnd - and would understand, if you hadn’t been cheated of real education by the people in control of liberal arts these days - that the liberal arts were developed by the Catholic Church starting in the 11th century. That Church which you denigrate as anti-intellectual is what revived learning and started to build colleges and universities - and began the then radical concept of educating poor people as well as sons and daughters of the rich.
The heights were reached with St. Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century - and the fact that Thomas’ philosophy is scorned as “Scholasticism” with the usual tag line “they debated how many angels could dance on the head of a pin”, the truth of the matter is that Thomas’ Summa cannot be refuted - and those who denigrate his school of thought refuse to try, instead turning to insult and the pretence that, somehow, the 18th century came along and we all got “enlightened” thanks to some agnostic and atheist philosophers who broke through Church censorship to bring logic and reason to the process of education.
No one would be more pleased than myself to have as many people as possible receive a liberal arts education - and just as soon as those in charge allow it, I’ll back them to the hilt.
8. Mark Noonan | March 23rd, 2008 at 6:26 pm
Rana,
The mere fact of condemning opinion indicates a narrow minded, propagandistic view of education. You can’t teach truth if you, yourself, are unwilling to be challenged.
9. Gozer the Carpathian | March 23rd, 2008 at 7:18 pm
Indoctrination U. Good movie, available for download, check it out.
Okay plug said I think we can all agree that not EVERY teacher in the university system is this messed up. Nor EVERY teaching assistant. Though a fairly large number is.
The fact that we don’t have to look very long or hard to find example after example of these wacky leftist diatribes and classes (hell check the catalogs on some of these schools!) should give us pause. It’d be one thing if you could find a similar number of right wing wacko classes (how about a gun rights 101 or something?) then I would fall more into the “It’s just individuals” arguments.
As it stands there’s far too many points leaning left for me to think it’s all just individual acts. (No I’m not saying there’s a conspiracy either, just trends and slants)
10. Diane Tomlinson | March 23rd, 2008 at 7:29 pm
Noonan is it out of bounds to ask if you went to some really neat-o Catholic school like Georgetown?
A liberal arts education in the Cal-State sytem is closed minded because it isn’t a Christocentric education. America isn’t a nation that would be willing to become a bunch of subjects in a Christian Dominion whether that leadership was Catholic or Protestant. Hey that wouldn’t be a bad plot for a cool novel. Say that America did have a Dominionist revolution and the two factions went to war? It would be like northern ireland except with F-22s and M1 tanks and Tomahawk missiles! How cool would that be!? Oh yeah not too cool for the women and children huh?
Yeah sure the Bible bots being created coming out of Regent and Patrick Henry are far superior to an education at a place like say Harvard or Berkeley or Duke or even Cal Poly SLO. Colleges should be liberal with a thing called knowledge and not closed like the dominionist crap traps like Farris’ joint and that Bible College Monica Goodling attended.
11. JPL | March 23rd, 2008 at 7:34 pm
Mark, I’m with you 100% on this issue. A bachelor of arts degree from a “prestige” liberal arts school these days is a load of leftist crap, I mean, indoctrination. Believe it or not, I’m so happy my son’s in art school, where he’s actually getting a more socially productive education than he would in a prestige liberal arts school, because they’re teaching him a practical trade along with essential math, science and history, and not plying him with Marxist group-think. And I’m not saying this because I’m anti-higher ed. I have BA and JD degrees from the very top national schools, it’s just that I’m more than a little ashamed of some of the crap going on at my alma maters today.
So to anyone out there with a smart, creative, intellectually curious, and independent-minded kid approaching college age: Forget the “prestige” schools. Encourage your kid to look at colleges where he or she can achieve without being taught to hate Western civilization. Some of them are religious-based, others are strictly classical (such as St. John’s in Annapolis), and others are trade or art schools, but they’re out there. Find the one that’s right for your kid. Believe me, it will save your child 25 years of “unlearning” all the crap he or she would otherwise be force-fed in a “prestige” liberal arts school.
12. JPL | March 23rd, 2008 at 7:37 pm
Oh, did I mention that Diane Tomlinson is a close-minded idiot?
13. Mark Noonan | March 23rd, 2008 at 7:46 pm
Diane,
Just what the heck would be a “Christo-centric” education? I’m talking about an education which would concentrate a bit more on Aristotle and Chesterton as opposed to Marx and Menchu. An education not conducted by people who hate investment bankers (why hate them? What have they done to you?). An education not conducted by people who see a racist/sexist/homophobe behind every action on the Judeo-Chrsitian West. Its the difference between discussing what happened during the Inquisition, and why, as opposed to just using it as a two-dimensional prop to condemn all religious belief.
A liberal arts education is an education where truth is to be sought - not propaganda imposed.
14. Diane Tomlinson | March 23rd, 2008 at 7:50 pm
How can I be a closed minded idiot when I was taught by the most enlightened people in the Universe, The Jesuits? Marquette ‘89.
Those brilliant men also taught me that just because you disagree with another person’s opinion doesn’t make you right or smarter than them, it just means you disagree. I just feel there’s more to the college experience in the modern age than the trivium and the quadrivium of the 11th Century I mean come on Noonan at least move into the Renaissance.
15. Diana Powe | March 23rd, 2008 at 8:03 pm
How paternalistic and socialistic of you, Mark. Those poor feeble-minded college students must be dutifully “protected” by conservatives from the malevolent leftists who control the liberal arts curriculum. After all, they’re just empty intellectual vessels waiting to be filled with some predigested knowledge. How do you know that? “All these people who must have gotten liberal arts educations comment on my blog and for some reason they don’t agree with me! Plus, I think they’re stupid.“
16. Diane Tomlinson | March 23rd, 2008 at 8:04 pm
A Christo-centric education would be one that feels it has to toss out elements of leftist thinking or historical principles that have shaped the human experience in the 20th Century in favor of the idea that Christian religion and its teachings can solve all the problems of the world today. While many of these principles have failed in macro aspects many or their micro aspects have merit and should be explored especially in the context of womens studies and economics.
Regent, Bob Jones and Patrick henry teach that sort of curriculum which is targeted at creating law students, doctors and political scientists that will take their dominionist teaching into the public sphere. It’s just another prong of the pitchfork that leads to the federal judiciary. Because, as a group of PHC students I interviewed in 2005 said, save for corporations, “it’s the appellate courts stupid.”
There’s no way to not get a little of the professor with the lecture. I had a statistics professor that hated Richard Nixon and used to spend the last ten minutes of every class railing about how much he loathed the man. But he loved Ronald Reagan. But that’s the UP for you and yet another reason why I didn’t stay in my native Iowa because there I would have gotten a guy who loved Nixon AND Reagan.
While the Leninist experiment in the Soviet Union may have failed commune based economics such as those practiced by Grameen Bank have proven very efficacious across the Third World.
Actually investment bankers haven’t done a thing to me but the point is made that there is a stream of rogues out there in the baking and finance industry that do not care what harm they do if they turn a profit. I point you to bear Sterns as anexample of a house that got caught.
17. Mark Noonan | March 23rd, 2008 at 8:07 pm
Diane,
Certainly - especially given that the Renaissance was brought to you largely courtesy of the Roman Catholic Church…as were hospitals and other such good works. I’m sure the Jesuits who educated you were worthy priests, but I am now reminded of the recent words of a young Jesuit - “we will inherit the ruins”; meaning, the younger Jesuits will take over and rebuild what was destroyed by the older Jesuits, now passing from the scene. I’ll note in passing that with people like Maguire at Marquette, one wonders just what you might have learned there…
Your mindset is misinformed by the fact that we can use a microscope and a telescope in 2008, and they couldn’t do so in 1208. But what does a microscope or telescope do for you? Just show you more details about what is true - it doesn’t add to truth, nor make new truth. Thomas Aquinas was a human being, and thus just as potentially intelligent as any human being today - that he didn’t know about, nor even imagined, an airplane (and he probably would have been horrified by things like atomic bombs and automatic weapons) doesn’t alter his intelligence, nor his ability to discover truth.
What I say, forthrightly, is that in the 8 centuries since Aquinas, no one has ever been able to successfully refute his arguments - in other words, no one has been able to demonstrate by argument or by scientific discovery that Aquinas got it wrong. That is a pretty strong assertion on my part, but I’ll bet that I’ll never be proven wrong.
Now, this doesn’t mean I want all college students to read the Summa, but what it does mean is that just because someone thought up an idea in 2008, it doesn’t mean that it is superior to ideas of 1908, 1808, 1708, etc. Furthermore, I am absolutely determined that we not allow lies to be implanted in order to make some feel good about themselves - one of the most glaring examples of this is the case of Rigoberta Menchu, who wrote a completely fraudulent story of her life, and yet is still hailed in higher eduction as a great contributor to intellectual life…the truth is the truth; teach what happened, and let the students discover the truth.
18. Mark Noonan | March 23rd, 2008 at 8:11 pm
Diane,
Ok, now that I have your definition of “Christo-centric”, I can state with firmness that I’m not looking for such a thing…if some private college wants to do that, that is perfectly fine…but for colleges which receive government money, I just want there to be a free quest for truth…can’t get that at a liberal arts college these days, for the most part…and, as usual, you are now slowly drifting away from the subject and trying to argue against some Christian colleges rather than either defending or attacking liberal arts colleges.
Careful, Diane; I won’t allow you to turn this thread into a discussion of Bob Jones University…what they do there is not at issue; what is done at our public-funded univesities, that is what is at stake.
19. Diane Tomlinson | March 23rd, 2008 at 8:17 pm
I think Aquinas would have been fascinated with the power generated by the atomic detonation but he would not have trusted men of any time with its might. I hope I have studied enough to surmise that he would have felt flying in a plane as a religious experience so great he might have to confess of his pleasure. this is what kind of man i saw Aquinas as.
Itend to agree that ideas of today on terra are no better than ideas of 1008 if they are rooted in the Truth. But the question remains, as any good Jesuit would say, who’s Truth?
Think about what will come of the war in Iraq from a purley logical standpoint. Let’s say they can set aside their differences and the war comes to an end with a destruction of the remnants of al Qaeda there and the powersharing leads to oil revenue sharing. 400 years down the road much of our bickering here on the Internet will be overlooked in favor of the new Arab democracy that was created by the US in the 21st Century. But only you here on Terra would know how close to disaster the effort was on many occasions.
I think the ability to understand both sides of an argument is what is most being weaned out of freshman college students these days in favor of either the liberal or the conservative dogma of professors. Personally, and for reasons solely my own, I tend to be more wary of the right wing indoctrination over the left. The real world will cure rabid liberal youth while it seems only something on the order of a high velocity .357 round can change the mind of a deeply rooted right wing Christian school graduate.
20. TiredofLibBullSh** | March 23rd, 2008 at 8:39 pm
Regardless of the origin of “liberal” in liberal arts, today’s liberal arts courses are dominated by the socialist, uh progressive, left.
My wife took a course that was titled “Religious Writing in Literature”. The course was not limited to one religion. The course was instructed by an ATHEIST!!! What was an atheist doing teaching this class??? Most of the time, the classes would degrade into an argument between the instructor and several class members. Of course, the atheist (and liberal) denied the existence of any supreme being, which went against the theme of the course.
Here, the instructor gave poor grades for those who disagreed with him. My wife had to suck it up and agree with this bozo in order to get an acceptable grade in the course. She worked for the university so she had to receive a C or better in order to receive the tuition waver. If not, she would have to pay for the course herself. This was a private university and tuition was not cheap even for a single course.
There are those instructors who do not bring their propaganda into that classroom, but there are those that do. These dangerous instructors are becoming more plentiful and their actions are harmful to higher education. There was a time that these instructors were fighting the “establishment”, now they are the “establishment” and have no room to give for what they themselves expected when they were in school.
21. TiredofLibBullSh** | March 23rd, 2008 at 8:51 pm
Another incident, which relates to the questionable racial attitude of Obama and his “pastor”, was from one of my history courses in college.
I, unfortunately, had an African-American professor for a history course. This professor had a chip on her shoulder when it came to any material related to slavery. When the discussion turned to the slave trade (which happened quite frequently), a fellow African-American student raised her hand and informed, to the dismay of the instructor, that her great-great grandfather was A SLAVE TRADER, a free man of color, who sold slaves in the heart of New Orleans. The instructor tried to dismiss the students claims, but the student said that she had the ledgers for these sales transactions.
Needless to say the instruct quickly changed the subject back to the relevant discussion we were supposed to be having. Luckily, I took the course Pass/Fail so the low grade I received, for not buying the instructor’s indoctrination attempts (her version of history was not what I had learned before) would not affect my GPA. I could do this for any non-major required course.
This was another incident in which the instructor’s social and political views affected the quality of the course being taught. Again, class discussions were not at free and informative other courses were, where the instructors were more open to other’s ideas.
22. Almiranta | March 23rd, 2008 at 8:52 pm
OK, so Diane T has spouted her anti-religionist viewpoint again, irrelevant to the thread but evidently a real obsession with her, and Diana has just chimed in with typical Powe blather.
Both ignore the fact that so-called “higher” education these days is a joke. “Liberal” arts schools do whatever they can to block student access to speakers who are not ardent, radical, Liberals. Or do the Double-D’s conveniently forget the actual violence used to try to silence David Horowitz, Ann Coulter, the founder of the Minutemen, or any of dozens of other conservative speakers on supposedly “liberal” campuses around the country?
The University of Colorado at Boulder had a tenured professor of “ethnic studies”—hired on an affirmative action basis because of his Native American background and his artistic achievements, both later found to be false—-teaching that America killed Native Americans by giving them blankets puposely infected with smallpox organisms. This canard has been disproved over and over again, yet it was “taught”. And oh, by the way, he also taught that students should be violent in their oppositon to the leadership of this country, and gave them tips on how to be domestic terrorists.
“Higher” education has become indoctrination into radical Liberal agendas. When the Ward Churchill thing broke in the press, radio stations around the country were swamped with calls from college students telling stories of being instructed to write about the evils of this country and being failed when they did not find anything evil to write about, and calls from students who simply lied and pretended to go along with radical teachers’ goofball ideas just to pass and get out of the classes.
Aside from possibly Bob Jones University, BYU, and Oral Roberts U., I’d be hard pressed to find any university indoctrinating conservative issues and viewpoints—and anyone going to those schools does so for the very reason that they espouse conservative and religious points of view. There is no deception there.
But students at state schools and Ivy League schools have the right to believe they will be given different sides of different points of view, and be taught to think and not just regurgiate talking points of some radical political movement.
And I would suggest that anyone who can say that a Jesuit would ask “who’s” point of view wasn’t paying much attention.
23. Spankyshand | March 23rd, 2008 at 8:57 pm
I sometimes wish you had a chance to breed Mark. (and then again, I’m glad the bloodline stops-at least yours- here). Your child, if you would let them have their own personality may lean left. Hopefully way left. This way you would have the chance to be exposed to youthful intelligent yearning to change the world from your elitist neocon warmongering “pious” point of view.
The worst case scenario is that you mind control the young adult into the abomination you have become.
Dear God let there be liberal arts. I’ll pay my taxes toward it with glee.
Right along side with the ROTC.
Stick your head back in the hole.
Warmonger. Happy Easter hypocrite
24. jackson | March 23rd, 2008 at 9:02 pm
I think it’s really amusing how the Bush Administration hired some 150 Regent University graduates, and that most of them were under the impression that loyalty to bush is more important than adhering to the law or defending the constitution.
But when they get into trouble or want to dodge subpoenas, they hire real lawyers from those damn liberal law institutions.
25. Diana Powe | March 23rd, 2008 at 9:03 pm
Now Almiranta wants to head the State Committee For Educational Purity. “We must have Standards to protect Our Youth from indoctrination! To the bastions! More Enemies without!” The right-wing psychological need for persecutors proceeds apace.
26. Almiranta | March 23rd, 2008 at 10:15 pm
Diana, you are simply silly.
What I WANT is actual education. That is to say, teaching facts instead of personal agendas, exposing students to various ideas and philosophies, encouraging students to think for themselves instead of demanding that they meekly accept propaganda from any teacher in any subject, and providing them with an accurate and factual understanding of the history and laws of our country.
Your hysterical rant is just proof of the panic experienced by the most rabid and fervent Leftists when there is any suggestion that they might lose their grip on the educational process and actually let it become what it was intended to be.
I’ve seen you post a lot of crap, but this sets a new low even for you. A “State Committee for Educational Purity” is proably the goofiest of a lot of goofiness you have produced.
On the other hand, standards to protect out youth from indoctrination sound like a pretty good idea. That is to say, standards of accuracy and open-mindedness. Pretty spooky to a hard-core Red like yourself, ain’t it? The last thing you and your ilk can handle is objectivity and exposure to fact.
And it is the Left which is so invested in the victim/villain paradigm. Sounds like your bleat about a “psychological need for persecutors” is a little too close to home for you Lefties to have you trying to stick it onto anyone else.
But thanks for making my point for me—the radical Left is deeply invested in retaining control over education, and absolutely freaks out when anyone suggests a more moderate and balanced approach to teaching our young.
Remember, when the State gets rid of religion, replaces the family, and controls education, it achieves the major goals of socialism and gains control. And what has popped up in just this one thread? Diane ranting against religion and Diana losing it when I suggest infusing education with a little more ……education.
But you’ve both earned a nice red star for your enthusiastic efforts…..
But do try to learn to actually read what is written, and to process that information more accurately. Such grotesque misrepresentation of what is actually said makes it look like—well, like you got a proper leftist indoctrination instead of an education.
27. Greg-O | March 23rd, 2008 at 10:37 pm
Diane Tomlinson wrote:
“Colleges should be liberal with a thing called knowledge and not closed like the dominionist crap traps like Farris’ joint and that Bible College Monica Goodling attended.”
While I agree that colleges should be dispensers of knowledge, the snobbery that was shown to Monica Goodling only highlights similar snobbery received by students in colleges today. “Indoctrinate U” is an excellent examination of this, and all the brow-beating in the world isn’t going to stop those who insist their professors leave their political views outside the classroom door.
Speaking of Goodling, and her alma mater, “that Bible College” Regent University, the URL below shows that they are turning out top-notch graduates. Of course, being the Boston Globe, you have to read towards the end of the article to get to the heart of the matter.
http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2007/04/08/scandal_puts_spotlight_on_christian_law_school/
28. What? | March 24th, 2008 at 12:00 am
So Mark,
Would your ciriculum of truth include works by Marx and Hobbes (a sworn atheist)? If so, how woud you teach them? Would your courses in history deal with the spotted past of Catholic Church?
Simply put Mark, I don’t see how you could be the purveyor of truth. Everything on this website indicates you have already decided what you believe and that you would teach to those beliefs.
Some professors teach to their politics, some do not. What bothers me about this thread is that conservatives show little faith in students’ ability to think for themselves.
What frightens me is Mark’s solution. He would rather deny an affordable college education to millions of American than have them learn something he disagrees with. Extraordinary.
Also, that TiredofLibullshit actually has a college education is amazing. This man tried to argue Fox News is unbiased. A high school drop out on meth could see the bias.
29. Diana Powe | March 24th, 2008 at 12:04 am
Speaking of someone supposedly “losing it” and writing about things after not reading, please do quote back to me some of my writing “against religion”, Almiranta.
30. What? | March 24th, 2008 at 12:20 am
On another note, it is not the knowledge I acquired at college that I most value about my four year experience. The fact I learned to write well is what I most value.
I also appreciate that I learned how to develop my own ideas and argue them pursuasively. So many people simply read books, spew out the premise and call themselves intellectuals without ever challenging the premise or adding to it. There is no value in that.
The actual knowledge I acquired was interesting, but knowing historical dates and events is not going to do me much good in the real world.
31. What? | March 24th, 2008 at 12:29 am
Actually, I should not be too surprised by Mark’s willingness to defund public education. This is the same man who said knowing how to read wasn’t all that important.
32. Mark Noonan | March 24th, 2008 at 2:41 am
Diane,
If you had a Jesuit saying “who’s truth”, then I’m sorry for you…there is only one truth, God, and all things which are true ultimately adhere to that.
Be that as it may…
If, 400 years from now, people are looking into our times, and even (perhaps) going through blog transcripts to see how regular folks were viewing things, what they will want to know - if they are wise - is whether or not we sought truth. We’re all dead at that point, so playing games with when someone died won’t matter to a truth-seeker in the 25th century…what will matter is how much truth we tried to bring out, or hide.
33. Mark Noonan | March 24th, 2008 at 2:44 am
what,
Do you have any sense of the nuances of things? You lefties were all about nuance in 2004 - what happened to that?
Being able to read isn’t the most important thing in the world - its not un-important, as you imply I claimed. What is always important in the world is whether or not a person is trying to get to the truth of the matter…especially in this Age of Lies we live in, the quest for truth becomes exceptionally important. The problem with you on the left is that you too often over-concern yourself with the trivialities of life, and let the larger issues slide.
34. Mark Noonan | March 24th, 2008 at 3:12 am
what,
Just noticed that other comments on the thread I wanted to answer were also by you:
So, here goes.
I didn’t say that I would set curriculum - in fact, I’m entirely un-interested it what, precisely, is taught. There is a such a thing as academic freedom, you know? I’m only interested in whether or not truth is the goal. You can have the whole school be nothing but Marxist teachers who will tell the students endlessly that in their considered opinion, Marx had it right…and as long as they allow the students to pursue truth unfettered, such professors would be doing their job.
Here is a sample of our problem:
Did you catch that? “The section on twelfth century African presence in Mexico and Central America, presented here as fact”. Any claim that Africans were in Mexico in the 12th century is, my friend, a lie - and this entry is from an Iowa State University website called:
Diversity & Ethnic Studies
Recommended Websites & Research Guides
In other words, the University recommends this resource, even though it contains a laughable lie, because for the University, getting it “right” on diversity is more important than presenting the truth. Now, if it is a private college receiving no taxpayer funds, then I don’t care if they teach that white people were invented by an evil African witch doctor - but at a taxpayer funded school, lies must be as far as possible banned, and the pursuit of truth strongly encouraged. How are we to get to truth when the university, itself, spreads lies? And don’t try to tell me - or anyone else - that this is an isolated example…I just went searching for it and it took only a very short time to find this…if I search more, I’ll find more (I’ve read enough on the subject to know that some really fabulous lies have been told, especially in African studies).
Truth, truth, truth - that is what we want, right? But as long as the left dominates in the liberal arts departments, the truth will be suppressed and lies will be broadcast…because that is the way the left always works when they are in charge (big defenders of academic freedom until they control a voting majority on the faculty; that is the left in a nutshell). We have to get them not out of the schools - they are free to teach whatever they darn well please - but out of control of the schools. De-funding them is the best means to do this - not a nice means; not a kindly means, but the best means.
35. pelirrojo | March 24th, 2008 at 5:40 am
Mark, this thread doesn’t really interest me (your views on the left running universities lost me when you said lefties are too lazy to go into hard sciences, a laughable lie), but that last comment does interest me.
“Any claim that Africans were in Mexico in the 12th century is, my friend, a lie”
Personally I haven’t looked into it (nor care to), but curious, how do you know any such thing is a lie? have you proven its impossible for africans to travel?
Have you even looked at their evidence? (ok maybe they don’t present it, they’ll reference it). If you haven’t then I’m afraid you’re avoiding the truth……
36. congressive | March 24th, 2008 at 8:11 am
This is a test. This is only a test.
1. Sh**.
2. LibBullSh**.
Just waiting to see which one gets deleted.
37. IrishFiddler | March 24th, 2008 at 10:25 am
Mark,
I would be careful presenting the Summa Theologiae as irrefutable. After all Saint Thomas Aquinas argues against the Immaculate Conception.
http://www.ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa/TP/TP027.html#TPQ27A2THEP1
That being said, I think Saint Thomas Aquinas is right more often than not.
38. IrishFiddler | March 24th, 2008 at 10:27 am
As a side note I intend to attend a liberal arts college: Thomas Aquinas College in California
39. MorrisMajor | March 24th, 2008 at 10:59 am
Wow, quite a leap from one disgruntled TA to all liberal arts education. I guess all you need is one good anecdote and the whole discussion is closed.
40. Tractatus | March 24th, 2008 at 11:43 am
The right-wing psychological need for persecutors proceeds apace.
Well, yes. Contemporary movement conservatism is based in no small part on an ongoing victim/persecution complex. Education, the media, the arts–everything that says things they don’t like is “biased” and is an affront to conservatives. It’s how they stay motivated–just look at the hysteria in this thread.
It also explains whatever shortcomings conservatism might have. It’s not that conservatism has its failures (witness Noonan repeatedly making the ridiculous assertion that conservatism “works every time it’s tried”–he’s created his definition, and the facts must bend to fit it!), it’s that this vague enemy called “liberal bias” is to blame.
41. Dasein Libsbane | March 24th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
Back to the subject; UC San Diego (which is not in the Cal-State system) is not unique in it’s adaptation of Liberal Arts as a forum for leftists ideology. In most of the disciplines it is difficult in the best of circumstances to find a teaching candidate that isn’t ideologically on the left. With few exceptions, the disciplines taught in liberal arts are right-brain (creative) endeavors. Teaching itself is a right-brained activity.
My particular area of expertise and the subject I taught at an extension of the university cited in the article, is accounting; a singularly left-brained (logic and discipline) activity. Most of us don’t bring ideology or politics into the classroom; there’s not point to it; balace sheets don’t care who is in control of Congress.
Those with the Liberal Arts degrees who make teaching a career are by and large those that cannot, or will not use the degree to further a career in any activity that would constrict their intellectual autonomy.
I’ve been on a number of search committees and my observations are consistent with those of other institutions; candidates for positions in liberal arts are academicians with little or no experience outside of academia. The greatest achievement the search committees can look for is publications, not results as those would be subjective whereas publications are generally accepted as expertise regardless of the nature of the publication; a treatise on the Nazi influence on plumage coloration of birds in captivity carries as much weight as developing a taxonomy of the entire list of genes found in the Neuospora genome. (Hint: one is academic masturbation, the other offers new targets for control of plant and animal pathogens.)
It is my belief, based on inductive reasoning of working at one such institution and having a daughter enrolled at a state university, that the colleges and universities don’t make a conscious effort to operate leftist indoctrination facilities; they can’t help it, conservatives just don’t apply for these jobs.
Once ensconced in these bastions of internally driven thinking, the teachers (from chair to TA) cannot have their methods questioned because of the vague academic freedom theory that holds that once in the classroom, the instructors role is to direct the students to intellectual awakening even if the student resists the notion, or especially if the student resists.
Getting back to UCSD; I attended the graduation of Marshall’s college last year, it was hysterical; they give phony awards to themselves celebrating diversity and intellectual curiosity as if those things prepare the students for life in any real fashion; the majority of last year’s graduates are still in the San Diego area; either attending post-grad classes, working for the U, or hawking burgers and fries by night and surfing by day.
42. jackson | March 24th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
I have a bit of a problem with people of “faith” deciding what is taught as “truth” in our educational institutions.
I spent much of my youth volunteering in 3rd world countries with Catholic Relief Services, and come from a family that’s so conservative that Jesuits are the liberal fringe. But 9/11 made me question everything I was taught, when I contemplated the ultimate motivation of young men who happily killed themselves and others in the name of their “faith”.
I’m not saying faith is necessarily a bad thing. It’s indoctrinated and agenda oriented faith that I have a problem with, and we see that everywhere, not just over there. A strong faith can indeed move mountains, but a blind unquestioning faith can bury us under them. Absolute faith is akin to absolute power, with the same ability to corrupt absolutely.
I’ve always thought that the louder people protest and the more fervently they preach, the more intellectually insecure they are in their positions. Knowledge drives out “belief”. For example, now that we know what powers the sun and why it rises, there’s no longer a need to create a “faith” to explain it, like many of our ancestors did. When you have such a tenuous hold on a belief that supports your entire world view, anything that contradicts it MUST be a liberal lie. Like the notion of a non-geocentric universe was.
I don’t mean to pit faith against science, because there’s plenty of crossover in both camps. The worlds of Physics and Medicine are full of faith based theories with their vocal proponents fervently looking for proof of their conclusions. The prevalence of wackos does not discriminate.
But educational institutions must keep a liberal slant, because I think that’s the only way to make progress and get to the truth. I’m not saying that liberals are not selective and sometimes elitist and exclusionary in their leanings, I’m saying that they’re more likely to accept evidence that they are wrong when presented with the truth, instead of refusing to consider it because it’s in opposition to their beliefs.. EVIDENCE of truth, not just the teachings of those who came before us, or anecdotes ancient or otherwise.
Look at Einstein, who shook up the traditional world of Physics with his radical genius. In his later years he became stuck on the conservative notion that “God does not play dice with the universe”. While a wonderful idea, it was a position he stubbornly held, and it prevented him from seeing or accepting the truth of the strange and spooky quantum world, which we now know to be real. Conservatism has it’s value in society, but in academia liberalism must rule.
43. felix the cat | March 24th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Mark Noonan claims that reading isn’t all that important. This would work for him because it would make it sooooo much easier to indoctrinate the illiterate. That’s the reasoning behind book burnings.
As John Adams, one of Marks constitution hero’s said: “Dare to read, to speak, to think and to write”. So much for a “liberal” education that Mark despises.
44. TiredofLibBullSh** | March 24th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
“Dare to read, to speak, to think and to write”
….. especially AGAINST a liberal instructor or professor and dare I say liberal politician!
45. FmrMarine | March 24th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
>>>>But 9/11 made me question everything I was taught, when I contemplated the ultimate motivation of young men who happily killed themselves and others in the name of their “faith”.<<<<
You mean in name of their CULT !
BIIIG difference.
46. FmrMarine | March 24th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
ftc
>>>As John Adams, one of Marks constitution hero’s said: “Dare to read, to speak, to think and to write”. So much for a “liberal” education that Mark despises.<<<
Actually it the writings of mao, lenin, marx, fidel, that the left follow, and is what Mark despises.
47. Almiranta | March 24th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
DIANA POWE…….Please read this. I typed it very verrry slowly so you have a chance at getting through it.
“OK, so Diane T has spouted her anti-religionist viewpoint again, irrelevant to the thread but evidently a real obsession with her, and Diana has just chimed in with typical Powe blather.?
“Diane T is Diane Tomlinson. Her name is Diane. It ends with an E. Just to be sure, I included her last initial. If I meant to reference you, Diana Powe, I probably would have used the initial P as a further identifier.
Diana, the name ending with an A, has not been accuses of being anti-religionist, but merely of constantly spouting mindless blather.
Now, go through that again. Maybe someone can help you with the hard parts. I saw you once get the vapors when somone confused you with Diane T by switching the E and the A, so I know you have the basic capability to recognize your own name—at least sometimes.
Try now.
48. kimberly4victory | March 24th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
Uh oh, Almiranta. I have posted several times to Diane, when I really meant to post to Diana. And, I am sure I’ve done the opposite as well. LOL!
49. Almiranta | March 24th, 2008 at 9:29 pm
kimberly, Diana Powe is just super-sensitive about my remarks, so much so that she has decided to take a comment that was not only directed to Diane but clearly so, with her last initial included to make it clear, and get the vapors over it.
All she does is illustrate her blind dedication to all things radically Left, and her inability to process information—-and I’ve always felt the two were linked.
I don’t like the teachings of Marx and Lenin and so on, but I think they should be part of a true liberal arts education. Students need to be exposed to different ways of thought, if they are ever going to learn to think for themselves. My objection to what passes for a liberal arts education in way too many colleges these days is that it has the exact opposite goal of trying to stimulate independent thought.
And we can see the results right here on this blog, as Lefties repeatedly post things that have been disproven over and over again—because they want them to be true, because they believe that they are true in spite of the facts at hand, because their “education” has made them swallow insanities like “fake but accurate”.
I strongly recommend Thomas Sowell’s “Conflict of Visions” for both Left and Right ideologues—it’s a fascinating study of the different visions that underlie our political positions, a nonjudgmental approach to understanding the basic differences in the way people view the world.
50. What? | March 25th, 2008 at 12:05 am
Mark,
The Age of Lies? Please. That is a bit dramatic don’t you think?
Then there is this:
“The problem with you on the left is that you too often over-concern yourself with the trivialities of life, and let the larger issues slide.”
Sorry, I have don’t know what you are talking about here. You have to tell me your argument or else I cannot respond to it. Is the Iraq War a triviality? How about gay rights? The economy?
Also, I have no idea what you meant with your nuance comment. You are reading in something that is not there.
Next up the Iowa State thing,
First off,
You are overreacting. You point out one book mentioned amongst many and conclude that all of Iowa State is run by crazy liberals. For this you want to de-fund all public universities in the country. Again, extraordinary. If you are going to propose such a radical agenda, have something beyond antedotes to support it.
Second,
Absolute truth, if there is such a thing, is reached through the process of trying out ideas and either rejecting them or accepting them as true, even if they supplant conventional wisedom.
For example, there was a point in time Americans believed Columbus was the first European in the Americas. This has since been challenged and, I believe, refuted. Galileo’s theory on heliocentrism is another example where conventional wisedom was overthrown, in that case by a single man.
Now, I don’t currently believe that there were Africans in the Americas in the 12th century, but if someone wants to present evidence to the contrary I am willing to look at it. If it is compelling than I will accept it, if it is not I will reject it.
This process of inquiry is how our knowledge has developed and has given us the understanding of our world that we have today.
It is, in short, the mechanism by which we reach the truth you claim to seek.
You, however, seem less interested in the truth than simply confining history to your particular understanding of it. You would be with the people who rejected heliocentrism before even hearing Galileo’s argument.
But again what saddens me, Mark, is that you have so little faith in your fellow Americans to think on their own. Do you really think that little of your fellow citizens?
I believe the average college student can choose what he or she believes to be truth. The person might even realize their are several truths to one story. Higher education is about learning to think and to analyze the world around you and make your own conclusions.
You are right, there are always going to be professors who try to bully their students into accepting their point of view. Lord knows I had a couple of them and it sucks. But the fact that the universities are not perfect is not a crime worthy of destroying them.
51. Mark Noonan | March 25th, 2008 at 2:28 am
what,
As an example - a triviality is worrying if there are “enough” black students at a university; the larger issue is whether or not the students are getting a real education.
And, also, as I said - don’t try and put this off as some isolated incident…finding that example took mere seconds of searching. You know darn well that it is one of 10,000 such examples, pervading our entire higher education system. But even if it were the only one - IT IS A LIE!!! No, what, you don’t get to say “well, I’ll listen to the evidence” - there is no evidence! Anyone who even remotely suggests such a thing is either an idiot, or a con artist. Why do we know this? Because anyone with even a cursory knowledge of African history knows that AFRICANS WEREN’T SEA-GOING PEOPLE!!!! The site of Alexandria was around for the entirety of ancient Egyptian civilization…it took Greeks to make a port out of it. Why didn’t the Egyptians? Because they didn’t go in for sea travel. For sub-Saharan Africans it is even more stark - the dearth of navigable rivers prevented development of more than rudimentary water craft - and thus there was no base of knowledge to build larger and seaworthy ships. Additionally, sub-Saharan Africa is notoriously deficient in natural harbors…when European traders first arrived off the west African coast, they invariably had to get into rowboats to go ashore because there was no place to put in a seagoing ship.
Africans visiting the Americas? How did they bloody get there!?!?!?! Its a stupid suggestion - and only someone on the make would assert it. In this case, the desire is to weave together a fantasy about Africa which some how makes it the equal to Europe in global impact. Sorry, ain’t gonna happen - I don’t care how much someone decides to hate the Europeans, they are the people who wound up having the largest impact on the world…and not just by a small margin but by a massive, overwhelming and earth-shaking margin. These are easily ascertainable fact, and they reflect no discredit on those people who didn’t have a big impact - its just something that happened, and it has to be dealt with, as is.
And yet, this is just one example of many - a huge amount of lies presented not just as truth, but as long-suppressed truth, so its really cool and important to hear it, and believe it. And the attitude has infected the larger culture - I once saw a television documentary which claimed that there was a female Pope named Agnes…this story being a bit of anti-Papal propaganda from the Reformation and without even the slightest basis in fact…but it was presented as fact in a “history” tailored to showing how women had a huge impact on our society.
Higher education is, indeed, about learning to think - but thinking must be based on fact. If its not, then its perfectly worthless mental masturbation.
52. Mark Noonan | March 25th, 2008 at 2:37 am
Irish,
I find no contradiction between that and this:
Though perhaps people with better knowledge can correct me.
53. Diane Tomlinson | March 25th, 2008 at 6:19 am
27. Greg-O | March 23rd, 2008 at 10:37 pm
Sorry Greg-O I should have called Goodling’s college by name, Messiah College which literally in 1909 began as a Bible College which gives the catch all name “Bible College Girls” those non career members of the DOJ working at the behest of the Bush administration. But that is another thing for another time. The stated goal of Regent, like that of Patrick Henry College by the way is to place as many people who are “indoctrinated” in Constantinian Christianity within the walls of the secular government. Both institutions of higher learning take great pride in noting how many of their graduates have become employed within the executive legislative and judicial branches of the secular government.
42. jackson | March 24th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
I agree. Very well said.
47. Almiranta | March 24th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
Exactly, I am an anti-religionist not an anti-Christian and I thank you for being able to tell the difference between the two. I don’t know too many people who wouldn’t have a problem with having social controls that are at best archaic and at worst anti-democratic shoved down their throats as if it were a cure for all the world’s ills. All the sort of religion being fronted by those with a nod to politics does is allowing the very worst the very vilest among you to prey on those that are weakest. And it is that defense of the weak that those of you like FmrMarine hate most about liberals. Because we will do what your Messiah said you should do, use our bodies and souls as shields for the weak against the whips and swords of oppressors.
Every day I sit at my desk and I see where conservative congregations are “shocked” and “outraged” at the latest scandal involving a minister, youth minister, or director of music and I can match one of those scandals with crimes being committed in the public schools by teachers who molest children. This is everyday not just random acts so until you folk who like to drape yourself in the cloak of the American flag and try to march fascism into the public sphere in the guise of patriotism and religion can clean up your own house you have no right to demand that I live by your rules. That is clearly my rationale for being against the politicized Catholics or the politicized so called evangelicals in America whether they align themselves as liberals or conservatives. Prayer should be private politics should be public. My father used to say, “Prayer should be treated like sex, practiced often and with sincerity, enjoyed to the fullest and carried out with passion but done where only the two involved can see.”
54. Tractatus | March 25th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
Higher education is, indeed, about learning to think - but thinking must be based on fact. If its not, then its perfectly worthless mental masturbation.
So does this mean you’re going to stop beating off (”intellectually” speaking)?
55. What? | March 25th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
You are hopeless, Mark.
As I have already pointed out, you have not even been presented with the evidence and you dismiss it. You want to make sure your version of history is not attacked or even questioned. Again, refer to my discussion on Galileo.
You can make your argument against Africans in the Americas, but first you need to apporach the contrary evidence and address it. You have refused to do that. This makes you closeminded. I frankly agree with your take on Africans in the Americas but I am willing to entertain other theories. This makes me more interested in the truth than you.
Next, you have done exactly what every person does when they use antecdotes to back up a propostion. You cite one and then assume that there are thousands more just like it and call it a day. Mark, that is both aweak argument and intellectually dishonest. If you can show me studies (not from the Heritage Foundation) saying a majority of people coming out of college believe something that is patently false (the Nazi’s won WWII), then I would show concern. You cannot do that.
I also want to address the articles take on graffiti art. The author clearly would rather see the students studying more traditional art forms. But which art form is more relevant in today’s world? A painting of some unknown duke created 300 years ago or the art work made by living people who are part of a urban subculture? Talk about Eurocentric.
Finally, Mark, despite what you said earlier, you are against the unbiased teaching of Marxism. You call it “Marxist poison.” You have clear ideas of what you want taught. You need to look at what you write in your article and make sure you aren’t changing your stance in your comments.
In conclusion, you have no interest in inquiry or truth. You want to indocrinate our nation’s college students with conservative orthodoxy . You are the evil you claim to protest.
56. jackson | March 25th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
“What”, in #50, provides a rational argument for making decisions based on the gathering of evidence, and keeping an open mind when conclusions cannot be determined as beyond any doubt. Very academic.
Mark, in #51, adamantly states his conclusion based on his limited knowledge, and belligerently fights for his position, resorting to insults and ridicule to raise his credibility and shame the opponent. A prototypical neocon.
I spent several years in Africa, mostly on the east coast. I once visited a small island off the coast of Mombasa, called Lamu, during a full eclipse of the sun(with a bad hangover). It was very different from the rest of mainland Kenya, in history and architectural remains. Reminded me a bit of the once-portugese port of Goa, accross the indian ocean near Bombay- or now Mumbai.
Lamu has been visited by sea travelers for about 2000 years, settled sometime after the 8th century, and the present town dates back to the 1300’s. Lamu has archeological remains of an 8th century mosque, and on the smaller island of Shanga, there are remains of Persian pottery and Chinese stoneware. I’ve read accounts of 1st century merchants describing their travels in the indian ocean and down the African coast, describing wealthy kingdoms engaging in trade.
I won’t even get into the most ancient kingdoms of Ethiopia(Queen of Sheba, remember?) and Eritrea. Not exactly known for their seagoing history, but definately had no shortage of ancient experience and influences from seagoing peoples in and out of the horn of Africa.
There are plenty of accounts of North African Moors traveling by sea down the west coast of Africa. If you look at a map, West Africa is about the same distance from Brazil as Goa is from Lamu across the indian Ocean. There are also accounts of a 400 ship fleet from the kindom of Mali heading west to a new land in the 1300’s. There’s no shortage of circumstantial evidence of pre-columbianic travel to the americas, from cultures all over the world. Check it out on Wiki, for example. Not clear proof, but interesting nonetheless.
Now don’t get your knickers in a twist, Brian, nobody’s challenging your sense of Eurocentric superiority and the dominant influence of Europe in global history. No one is trying to equate Africa’s cultural influence with that. But don’t be a fool and completely rule out the mere possiblity of Africans being present in South America before you think they were. Are you really THAT insecure?
Maybe you just resent those damn pagan Afrocentric anthropologists pointing to evidence that Africa is actually the Cradle of Man, because it clashes with your 6000 year old world theory? Or is it that you might share mitochondrial origins with Africans, yet you’re resentful because you don’t seen any evidence of that in your pants?
57. What? | March 25th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Jackson,
Mark, if you have not noticed, thinks he has a monopoly on historical interpretation. What is amazing is that his understanding of history supports his politcal beliefs perfectly.
Now, I wonder which conclusions Mark reached first, his politcal ones or the ones on history?
Considering he claims to have been a conservative since the Goldwater era, I think we know the answer.
And Tractus,
No, Mark will never stop beating off (in the intellectual sense) as long as there are people out their who have the gall to disagree with him.
58. majoriot | March 25th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
I suppose she could watch Fox News to even it all out.
59. jackson | March 25th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Good points all round, what!
Sounds colonial British, that.
I’m going to resist continuing in that vein (too bad, I had a good one about nocturnal Omissions), because I know where Mark is coming from. I used to be one of him. Until I started thinking for myself.
You can do it too, Mark. It’s a little painful at first, but you’ll feel much better about yourself later, once you jettison the last vestiges of brain thunking denial and take a good look at what you’ve been spoon fed all your life.
We have support groups.
60. Mike | March 25th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
It is not possible to separate conservatism and anti-intellectualism.
61. Mike | March 25th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
Imaging what would be on the ideal conservative college curriculum…
-Trickle-down economics 1301
-Intro to xenophobia
-Staying in the closet 1401 (requires a lab)
-Seminar in incompetence
62. jackson | March 25th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
Ha!
How about:
-Cronyism 302
-Jingoism as policy 402
-Governing with the ten commandments 101
-Democrats and Racialist Marxism 201 (professor plumb bob)
63. What? | March 25th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Jackson,
I agree. I believe in Mark. That is why I patiently frustrate him with my “trivial” “liberal” thinking. I think he has a long way to go but I am willing to stick it out. Glad to see someone else is here to help.
And Mark,
How do you know I am a liberal? I never told you who I plan to vote for. McCain is not off the table at this point.
Mike,
I like your joke but there is intelligent conservatism, it is just not evident in the kind peddled by FOX News personalities or radio show hosts. The Rushes, Hannitys and Coulters of the movement drown out any intellectual voices with sensationalism and name-calling. Sadly 30% of America seems to enjoy this brand.
64. jackson | March 25th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
Electives:
-Vocalizing through the rectum
-The persecution of the Zygote
-A brief history
-Endangering species- a matter of taste.
65. Mark Noonan | March 27th, 2008 at 1:15 am
what,
It doesn’t occur to you that my views might be based on history?
Think about it - in the example provided, its very simple for you to look up whether or not Africa, especially sub-Saharan Africa, had sea-going ships. Once you ascertain the fact that it didn’t, its clear my view is not just an opinion, but an indisputable fact.
And once you grant that I’m right on one thing, you might even grant that I’m right on others.
66. Sex Girls Having Sex Roug&hellip | May 27th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Sex Girls Having Sex Rough Sex
I can not agree with you in 100% regarding some thoughts, but you got good point of view
67. Distance Learning Distanc&hellip | June 8th, 2008 at 8:27 pm
Distance Learning Distance Education Seminary Dental Continuing Education
I didn’t agree with you first, but last paragraph makes sense for me
68. soma records&hellip | June 30th, 2008 at 11:11 am
soma
soma babes
69. Pee Public Pee Public Pis&hellip | July 3rd, 2008 at 4:57 am
Pee Public Pee Public Pissing
I can not agree with you in 100% regarding some thoughts, but you got good point of view
70. Graphic Design Cool Desig&hellip | July 4th, 2008 at 8:28 pm
Graphic Design Cool Designs Free Embroidery Designs
I didn’t agree with you first, but last paragraph makes sense for me
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