John McCain on Foreign Policy
March 27th, 2008 at 09:38am Mark Noonan
From the speech:
I am an idealist, and I believe it is possible in our time to make the world we live in another, better, more peaceful place, where our interests and those of our allies are more secure, and American ideals that are transforming the world, the principles of free people and free markets, advance even farther than they have. But I am, from hard experience and the judgment it informs, a realistic idealist. I know we must work very hard and very creatively to build new foundations for a stable and enduring peace. We cannot wish the world to be a better place than it is. We have enemies for whom no attack is too cruel, and no innocent life safe, and who would, if they could, strike us with the world’s most terrible weapons. There are states that support them, and which might help them acquire those weapons because they share with terrorists the same animating hatred for the West, and will not be placated by fresh appeals to the better angels of their nature. This is the central threat of our time, and we must understand the implications of our decisions on all manner of regional and global challenges could have for our success in defeating it…
…In such a world, where power of all kinds is more widely and evenly distributed, the United States cannot lead by virtue of its power alone. We must be strong politically, economically, and militarily. But we must also lead by attracting others to our cause, by demonstrating once again the virtues of freedom and democracy, by defending the rules of international civilized society and by creating the new international institutions necessary to advance the peace and freedoms we cherish. Perhaps above all, leadership in today’s world means accepting and fulfilling our responsibilities as a great nation.
One of those responsibilities is to be a good and reliable ally to our fellow democracies. We cannot build an enduring peace based on freedom by ourselves, and we do not want to. We have to strengthen our global alliances as the core of a new global compact — a League of Democracies — that can harness the vast influence of the more than one hundred democratic nations around the world to advance our values and defend our shared interests.
At the heart of this new compact must be mutual respect and trust. Recall the words of our founders in the Declaration of Independence, that we pay “decent respect to the opinions of mankind.” Our great power does not mean we can do whatever we want whenever we want, nor should we assume we have all the wisdom and knowledge necessary to succeed. We need to listen to the views and respect the collective will of our democratic allies. When we believe international action is necessary, whether military, economic, or diplomatic, we will try to persuade our friends that we are right. But we, in return, must be willing to be persuaded by them.
We covered this a bit the other day, but I think it important that we keep the discussion going - after all, this is one of the central challenges we face over the next ten years: how to build a world of hope, safe from those who would destroy all hope.
John McCain clearly understands the problem we face, and I can’t fully express my delight that the man who may be the next President of the United States is willing to set up a global body of democratic nations to secure the peace of the world. It is, honestly, just what the doctor ordered for our sick world - a world made sick by lies, not least of which is the lie national sovereignty and political stability are of more import than liberty and human decency. It is to be hoped that McCain’s proposal will catch fire - and, especially, will come into strong contrast with Barack Obama’s assertion that he’ll go straight to the tyrants and work deals with them, rather than understanding that tyrants are to be opposed as much as possible, and only worked with at exteme necessity.
In clarity and wisdom, John McCain offers a stark contrast to the miserable gropings of HillBama, who seem to be just saying whatever might work to curry favor for the next primary, and who are likely to conduct foreign policy in a manner designed to curry favor among the elite, rather than with a mind towards America’s best interests.
Entry Filed under: Campaign 2008, Foreign Affairs, Republicans
71 Comments
1. Joe | March 27th, 2008 at 9:59 am
Mark
“…strong contrast with Barack Obama’s assertion that he’ll go straight to the tyrants and work deals with them, rather than understanding that tyrants are to be opposed as much as possible, and only worked with at exteme necessity.”
I still have a problem with this “League of Democracies” idea. Who exactly is going to decide if a country is democratic-enough? Is Saudi Arabia democratic-enough? Iran and Venezuela have held elections. Just because you didn’t like the outcome, would they be in or out?
That is saying become like us or we don’t like you and you can’t play with us.
That certainly isn’t a way to make friends.
Why do you (and McBush) hate talking to enemies so much? Like I said on another thread, when you talk to enemies, maybe you can find some common ground to work towards. You know… maybe try to become less of an enemy.
Not every country can or wants to become like us. Some countries are ok with how they are whether you like it or not.
So what exactly is so wrong with talking with enemies? Nobody has been able to answer that question yet.
2. Sunny | March 27th, 2008 at 9:59 am
Senator McCain is putting distance from the Bush administration with his position that it is necessary to have mutual respect and trust of our allies:
“But we must also lead by attracting others to our cause, by demonstrating once again the virtues of freedom and democracy, by defending the rules of international civilized society and by creating the new international institutions necessary to advance the peace and freedoms we cherish. Perhaps above all, leadership in today’s world means accepting and fulfilling our responsibilities as a great nation.”
” Our great power does not mean we can do whatever we want whenever we want, nor should we assume we have all the wisdom and knowledge necessary to succeed.”
Wise words. It is going to take a strong and wise leader to keep our country strong and safe. Mutual respect is a great start.
3. Canadian Observer | March 27th, 2008 at 11:40 am
di·plo·ma·cy
n.
1. The art or practice of conducting international relations, as in negotiating alliances, treaties, and agreements.
2. Tact and skill in dealing with people.
Let’s hope whomever wins the White House in November, diplomacy, lost under the current administration, will once again become a valid tool to be used often, and in place of the ‘bomb first, talk later’ policy.
4. Arctic Fox | March 27th, 2008 at 11:59 am
Well, I just hope that anyone Mr McCain wants to ally with doesn’t read this site… the anti-european, anti-UN sentiment expressed here is exactly what Mr McCain is saying is bad for the country here.
And you know what? He’s right about that.
But as a country America has also got to stop thinking it has a right to lead everything in sight, and this includes a “league of democracies”. I was talking with a few Brits I used to work with following McCain’s speech, and their replies were pretty typical. Yes, a league of democracies isn’t a bad idea, but were does a country that practices torture and has draconian anti-privacy laws to enter it fit into such a league? How does a country that has suspended habeas corpus and can declare at will somebody to be an “enemy combatant”, and by the declaration strip them of ALL rights awarded to all people in a democracy? A league of democracies is going to require quite a few changes that have been implemented during this Bush administration to be reversed, and Mr McCain has shown every indication that he isn’t interested in that.
So yes, an interesting speech… but Mr McCain would have to turn America back into a democracy if he ever wants it to take part in such a thing. Otherwise it’s all hot air.
5. Almiranta | March 27th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Oh, Fox, get a grip and start paying more attention.
Yes, many here think the UN has outlived its usefulness and become a tool of repressive regimes and a source of vast income for corrupt officials. It has been getting worse, and no one seems to care—at least those on the Left don’t seem to be bothered by the Food For Oil scheme, by soldiers who are supposedly protecting people trading food to 12-year-old girls for sex, and so on, ad infinitum.
So? Do you think McCain is impressed by the UN? It seems to me that if McCain thought the UN was so great, he would not be proposing an alternative—or stating so clearly that it would be an alliance of ONLY democracies.
And I haven’t seen one anti-European post here. Where do you people GET this stuff? Or did you get your panties in a twist because many of us have commented on the failures of European socialism?
It is a shame that so many people in so many countries have bought into the lies of the domestic Agenda Media. Your Brit friends are prim examples. BTW, how much of what they think they know about the US came from you, yourself? How much of your own bile and hostility toward this country and Bush had you fed them before they offered these opinions?
Just look at your laundry list of offenses: “practices torture…” “… has draconian anti-privacy laws….” “…..suspended habeas corpus….” —it’s all the same old same old, the tiresome rants of the anti-American, anti-Bush, hysterics.
We do NOT “practice torture” you silly twit. OK, maybe we do, if we accept the radical Left’s defintions of torture, which seem to include anything that the prisoner might find objectionable. Let’s see, we have seen you whine and whimper about playing loud music, adjusting the temperature in the interrogation room, using sleep deprivation, and of course the favorite new catchword, “waterboarding”.
Tell me, Oh Great Fox, of one single nation which has required its interrogators to experience the treatment they impose on those they are questioning. Waterboarding has been used twice, I think, only in very extreme cases, and those who administered it had been through the experience. Ooooooh, so gruesome.
I’m waiting to hear one of you whine that making prisoners wear orange jumpsuits is “torture” if the prisoner is a Spring and not a Fall.
Give me an example of an “anti-privacy law” please. Just one. Waiting……….
Yeah, I thought so. Or are you referring to the practice, approved by courts, vetted by many Constutional scholars, of being able to intercept international communications between terrorists even when the recipient of such communications is physically present in the United States? You know, that practice you radicals find so upsetting.
It would be interesting to see you and your ilk take responsibilty for much, if not most, of the negative emotion directed at the United States, worldwide. It would be fair, as it is your lies which have created the largely false impressions so many have of us.
I have had several British interns working for me, and they actually thought the Michael Moore movies were factual. Hmmmm. I suppose you can’t see how spreading lies like those he creates can have a negative impact on opinions of America.
I think that the one thing I find most disgusting about the radical Left is that they spread such hateful, vicious, lies about this country and its adminsitration and then suddenly become all pious and concerned when people base their opinions of us on those very lies.
And disgust is the correct word to use.
6. FoolYouTwice | March 27th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Ranty,
Why do you get your panties in a twist when someone comments on the failure of the Bush administration? Your ability to hold double standards is quite astonishing. If someone disagrees with Bush they are vile and hostile, but if you disagree with something you are just commenting on it. If someone points out the failings of the Bush Administration they are Anti-American, but if you point out the failings of Europe you don’t believe you are being Anti-European. This is basic stuff Ranty. Children can understand the double standards you adhere to, why can’t you?
7. Arctic Fox | March 27th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Yes, I was talking about waterboarding, which may I remind you the US tried and found guilty japanese soldiers who wateboarded US troops in WWII. So explain to me why waterboarding WAS torture then, but ISN’T now?
You want one example of privacy invasion? Okay. I use a laptop. I have two USB hard drives, at the place where I work and at the place where I live. Why? Because one is across the border in Canada. And EVERY time I cross the border with my laptop, the DHS would take a mirror copy of my hard drive. And I wouldn’t be given a choice about this. EVERY time. A mirror copy - that means absolutely everything, from my personal email to my private records and diary details. So I have removed the hard drive from my laptop, and I have mirror copies on my USB hard drive to avoid this utter breach of privacy.
So, motor mouth, I’ve answered your points about torture and breach of privacy. I’m ready to accept your apology for calling me a liar now.
8. Canadian Observer | March 27th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
5. Almiranta | March 27th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
You can try distract from the countless failures of the Bush administration, Almiranta, until the cows come home; it won’t make a bit of difference. Trying to defend the indefensible just won’t work anymore.
World opinion has been formed by observation and not as you erroneously claim by some sort of leftist propaganda.
9. Tractatus | March 27th, 2008 at 1:18 pm
So explain to me why waterboarding WAS torture then, but ISN’T now?
Because 9/11 changed everything, of course!
BTW, talking points for the *ahem* surge of violence in Iraq today have been distributed already, why haven’t you guys posted them yet?
10. SteaM | March 27th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
I know it’s been said already but why am I to trust McCain’s wanting to reach out to our enemies in an attempt to encourage and reach mutual respect when he still supports some forms of torture? GitMo? Suspending Habeas Corpus? I think he needs to clarify where he stands on these issues.
11. majoriot | March 27th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
What I see is a jingoistic policy.
We are better. A western style capitalist democracy is best. We will work against you and your kind by banding together.
What I would rather hear, from any candidate, is not the promotion of our way of doing things, but promoting a consensus on how the world should operate. While the U.N. has floundered in this regard, it is still a better gouping than one that is solely for the purpose of promoting one form of government as a world government.
12. Some Assembly Required | March 27th, 2008 at 3:06 pm
Major,
I agree. In bringing together a League of Democracy’s, what do you think communist nations or dictatorships are going to do? They will form their own leagues and so the world would be further divided. Eventually these two leagues would lead to war. World War III I believe it would be called.
Sure this maybe a little paranoid logic. My point being in creating the league of democracy’s any nation that is not a democracy will not just simply pack it up and go home because they are not allowed to be members unless they change.
Understanding and compromise are the only means in which peace and unity can truly be obtained.
13. Diana Powe | March 27th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
I wonder which Senator John McCain was speaking in this instance. He changes his positions with such ease it’s hard to know. Was this the man who was brutally tortured and stated unequivocally last November 28 (emphasis added):
or the McCain of 84 days later who urged President Bush to veto a measure that Senator McCain himself voted against which would limit interrogations to those techniques in the U. S. Army field manual which less than three months before were “working and working well”? Where is the “mutual respect and trust” with other nations who name us as torturers going to arrive from with a President McCain who can, for the sake of an election, toss aside what he himself named as a “defining issue” for America?
Oh, it didn’t matter what he actually said in a debate! That was just some words to try to get elected. That’s not stuff you’re supposed to think I actually believe! Get real!
14. Some Assembly Required | March 27th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
“My friends, this is what America is all about. This is a defining issue and clearly we should be able, if we want to be Commander in Chief of the U. S. Armed Forces, to take a definite and positive position on and that is we will never allow torture to take place in the United States of America”
Diana, I wonder if what he is saying here is that Torture will never be ‘allowed’ to take place in the ‘United States of America’. But he sees no problem with it going on in ‘Iraq’ or on ‘Foreign’ soil? Maybe it’s just a well worded way of saying he supports torture. Out of sight out of mind eh….
Regardless, I would like to think someone who has been tortured would never wish it upon anyone. This tends to raise two questions in my mind, will the man say anything to get elected? and will he follow through on any of his policies when elected?
15. southerner | March 27th, 2008 at 4:22 pm
Soooo…..
McCain suggests setting up something called a “League of Democracies”. What exactly would such an organization look like? Presumably it would not include a single nation from the middle east (apart from Israel, which of course is a wonderful democracy, albeit one established on stolen territory). Our best pal in central Asia - Pakistan would be out too of course, but hey now that they’re not in our club maybe we can finally go track down Bin Laden?
It would also exclude China and many other rising east Asian nations. But hey, who cares about those guys, they’re not big players.
Russia would be out too of course, along with most of the resource rich “istan” republics of central Asia. What about South America? Venezuela would have as good a case for joining as just about any nation in the continent since Chavez has won two elections by large majorities in contests which were praised by independent monitoring bodies as being the fairest in Venezuela’s history (he has also won referendums on his policies), but something tells me that McCain isn’t going to let Chavez into his little club.
Most of the other south and central American countries might also be sceptical of the US setting up a “pro-democracy” league since most of them suffered under US backed dictatorships as recently as the 1970s/80s (Argentina, Chile, El Salvador, Colombia, Granada, Haiti, Cuba, Nicaragua, Panama, etc., etc. - all part of our brilliant and self-contradictory mid-20th century CIA dictated paranoid and callous foreign policy).
There are dozens of other examples I could point out and then you might want to consider the fact that there is no way in hell that most European countries are going to sign up to such a polarizing organization. The very idea of having some little club of enlightened democracies which is going to sort out the world’s problems is so inherently ridiculous that it really ought to make people question McCain’s core intelligence. Do you really think such an exclusionary group would be able to do anything to solve the world’s major international issue - the situation in the middle east? How would they engage with the globe’s emerging dominant power - China? I’ll tell you how they’d engage with them, they just wouldn’t.
It’s such a ridiculous idea it doesn’t even warrant comment. The fact that the presumed candidate of a major American political party has uttered it in public is tragic, the fact that his sycophants are lapping it up is even worse.
Looks like McCain’s repeated “misspoken” statements regarding Shiite Iran supporting Sunni Al Qaeda weren’t such aberrations after all….
Between this and his desire to bomb Iran and his idea that it might be a good idea to keep US forces occupying a middle eastern country indefinitely the fact is that McCain is a foreign policy wacko and the US public is not going to elect another loose cannon to office in November. Americans have reached a point where they are genuinely concerned about these issues and McCain is so ridiculous that even Hillary could beat him in November (and that’s saying something).
16. Diana Powe | March 27th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Some Assembly Required,
I was careful to transcribe what he said and that last phrase was “take place in the United States of America.” However, if you watch the entire segment with he and Mitt Romney going back and forth in the debate, it seems that Senator McCain was invoking the general in Iraq praising the Army field manual’s list of approved techniques as being applicable everywhere. Yes, I believe that Senator John McCain will say anything, regardless of his past views on any subject, if it will get him into the White House. There is ample evidence of that.
17. Some Assembly Required | March 27th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Diana, I’ll look into the debate where I did not catch it myself. Just wanted to make sure I did not take it out of context or read anything more into it than what was there. Though by suspension of habus corpus and supporting the army field manual’s list of approved tortures it wouldn’t be a stretch to say torture would be used in the United States of America.
I am really starting to get the feeling myself. Personally I didn’t hold much stalk with his ‘misspeaking’ in Jordan or the sex scandal or his sought after endorsement of John Hagee. Saying that I am now starting to question if he is truly legitimate myself. Mind you I am an Obama supporter, but I also had no problem is McCain gain office. Lately I’m starting to question the latter.
18. Diana Powe | March 27th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
There’s no question that Senator McCain has no problem with the current status quo existing in Iraq throughout his tenure as president. While he would like for Iraq to somehow become a democratic beacon in the Middle East during the next four and a half years, if it doesn’t it wouldn’t prevent him from leaving our forces there the entire time. That’s the real question for potential McCain supporters. Do they want someone who is committed to an open-ended (”a hundred years”) battle in Iraq? However, he is quite the flip-flopper, so who knows?
19. Almiranta | March 27th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Oh, Fox, I never called you a liar, you silly silly man. I asked you to cite a law what you claimed, to be “….a draconia anti-privacy law”. And you haven’t.
I didn’t ask for “…one example of privacy invasion…” though in a Fox-centric world I guess that would be all that is necessary.
I wonder if all who cross the border with laptops get the same treatment. Just curious…….. I crossed the Canadian border several times since 9/11, on every occasion but one pulling a horse trailer—plenty of room and opportunity to transport all sorts of things/people. And I was never subjected to any kind of harassment, except for the time I crossed at a very tiny border crossing post in February and the Canadians freaked out—-they just knew a woman traveling alone in the winter had to have some nefarious reason to cross there. Silly buggers just didn’t ask WHY I chose that crossing—-if they’d asked where I was going, it would have made complete sense.
The CANADIANS searched my vehicle, very very carefully, and were quite surly when they found nothing to get excercised about, but the Americans have always been courteous and helpful and respectful. Maybe they didn’t know about that “draconian anti-privacy law”…..
Or maybe you project a lot of things in person similar to what you project here, Fox. Just a possibiity……
I can’t speak for others—that is one reason I am no longer a Liberal, as once I realized that basic truth I realized I needed to look more closely at other previously accepted concepts as well—–so I can’t tell you why Japanese soldiers were found guity of torture for waterboarding. Do you know this for a fact, or did you just pick it up on Airhead America? I’d like to learn more about it, so please provide a link.
And thanks for the proof that imitation IS the sincerest form of flattery. I notice that some of you have been so taken by my characterization of Ranty Rhodes as such, you have picked up on the name. (Modest bow….)
FYT, if you would just pay attention, you would note that I often disagree with Bush. I have strongly disagreed with him on his expansion of the Federal budget, for example, and very VERY strongly on his cockamamie “comprehensive immigration” plan, which was terrible. So it is silly to claim that my posts indicate that I believe “If someone disagrees with Bush they are vile and hostile…” That’s just goofy.
I find it vile and hostile to automatically deem every single thing the man has decided, supported, or stood for as not only wrong but proof of evil intent. Which you all tend to do. And I find it vile and hostile to make the nonstop personal atacks on him that have preoccupied the radical Left for the past 8 years.
It is also wrong to claim that I support and defend everything Bush has done. It is not only inaccurate but it flies in the face of post after post I have made.
So the credibility of those trying to attack me personally is in even worse shape than before you started to invent things with which to assault me.
So what’s your opinion of the thread, Lefties? Some of you have actually tried to address the issue, which is a nice change, and I note that as you do so you do quite a nice job of outlining the radical Left political posture. Naturally, you can’t do it without a measure of vitriol—what’s a Lefty post without vitriol?—such as first inventing universal conservative support for McCain’s ideas and then accusing these phantom supporters of being “sycophants”, but overall you have done an excellent job of outlining the basic philosophical differences between left and right, vis-a-vis international policy and the role of America in same.
I also note that the Politics of Personal Destruction machinery has been set in place, though McCain has refused to play. It will be interesting to see how many moderate Dems will be sucked into the demonization of the Republican candidate that has been such a staple of Dem campaigning for the past decade or so. I have a feeling it will be far fewer than last time around—at some point people do start to wonder if their guy is running AS something or just AGAINST something.
And it won’t help if the moderates come to blogs like this and see the negativity and the anti- attitude that dominates the radical Left. People who love this country, who are looking for someone who also loves the country to provide solid leadership, who are looking for someone to vote FOR instead of just being asked to be AGAINST someone, tend to find your level of political discourse and its attendant seething hostility and barely buried anti-Americanism —- creepy.
20. jackson | March 27th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
Almiranta wrote:
“I have had several British interns working for me, and they actually thought the Michael Moore movies were factual. Hmmmm. I suppose you can’t see how spreading lies like those he creates can have a negative impact on opinions of America.”
You want to sweep all of our problems under the rug so people won’t think badly of us? That’s got to be on of the most naive things I’ve ever heard. Spreading Lies? You don’t have to blame us, blame this administration. You should read some international papers and see how they feel about this administration. I’ve been ALL over the world and it’s pretty much a consensus- they like americans, and hate America’s policies under bush, and intensely dislike him for his arrogance, stupidity and lies. The dislike him for all the crap that comes straight out of his mouth, not our criticism of it. Our criticism is mild in comparison.
As for Sicko, can you point to ONE thing that is proven false? Everything in it has been backed up by a credible source.
One of the most frequent things I’ve heard is “how can americans be so stupid? Do that many of them actually believe Bush?’ At least I can point to his terrible approval ratings with pride and say no, we’re not that stupid. It’s just that the democrats are so incompetent.
So, forgive me for saying this, no offense personally, but it’s people like you who have given this country a bad name for blindly following and swallowing and not caring about the terrible damage this president has done.
21. Diana Powe | March 27th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Almiranta says “tsk, tsk, tsk” about “the Politics of Personal Destruction machinery”. Yes, if you put out factual instances of Senator McCain flip-flopping on issues, that’s the politics of personal destruction. If you go into prolonged diatribes about Senator Obama’s hand placement during the Pledge of Allegiance or his failure to wear a flag pin that’s what…?
22. Tractatus | March 27th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
If you go into prolonged diatribes about Senator Obama’s hand placement during the Pledge of Allegiance or his failure to wear a flag pin that’s what…?
Why, it’s raising Very Serious Concerns over Very Serious Issues, obviously!
23. Arctic Fox | March 27th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
Almiranta ranted:
Most interestingly US generals actually classified Waterboarding as torture during the vietnam war. This from Wikipedia’s article on Waterboarding (which is hardly “airhead radio”):
So there you have a definite link, I suggest you follow their links if you want to read about it in detail.
As a matter of fact, I take Bush’s side in his disagreement with the Texas courts. I do agree with him on some matters. I disagree with him on others. Just like you claim to do. But I don’t accuse - sorry, infer, because you never out and out said I was a liar, you just inferred it by saying I wasn’t telling the truth - others of being “vile” just because their view either doesn’t agree with mine in full or contradicts it utterly.
Ooh, now who isn’t keeping up? I never claimed that for one moment. Neither do I particularly CARE what you think, let alone can be bothered to “assault” you over it. Free country and that kind of thing you know.
But I AM going to accuse you outright of jumping to stupid and ill-advised conclusions, because I know you’re guilty of that:
For your information… I’m female. :P
24. Diana Powe | March 27th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
Oh, Arctic Fox, you are not! Almiranta said you’re a man and that settles it.
25. Diana Powe | March 27th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
A link to a contemporaneous newspaper article referring to the trial of U. S. Army Major Edwin F. Glenn who was tried by court-martial and convicted of “having administered the water cure to Filipino natives.”
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9A05E6DB113DEE32A25755C2A9619C946397D6CF
His defense sounds very familiar.
26. Diana Powe | March 27th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
A link to an article in Winter 2005 Air Force Law Review referring to the successful prosecution of Maj. Glenn and First Lieutenant Julien Gaujot for utilizing waterboarding.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m6007/is_57/ai_n16520067/pg_61
27. southerner | March 27th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Almiranta,
Just to clarify, before McCain became the republican party’s presumed nominee for the presidency you said in a vitriol laden post (the very thing you complain of in one of your little rants above) that you would NEVER vote for the man.
Is my memory incorrect? Just wondering what you’re doing here defending McCain since this thread is about McCain’s idea to set up some sort of exclusionary international organization of friendly democracies. How come your here depending McCain? Have you changed your opinion about him? Was your statement that you would NEVER vote for him untrue?
28. Diana Powe | March 27th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
A link to a case synopsis of the trial for war crimes, including “water torture” and “strapping on a stretcher head downward” of Japanese Army officer Yukio Asano who was convicted and sentenced to “15 years CHL” (Confinement Hard Labor):
http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~warcrime/Japan/Yokohama/Reviews/Yokohama_Review_Asano.htm
29. js | March 27th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
Sorry DT, japanese water torture isnt water boarding.
This confirms your ignorance of the truth.
Thanks, we needed that.
30. Herkimer X. Arbuthnot | March 27th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
Try to be honest, Diana, Asano was convicted of numerous violations of PW rights, the specific “waterboarding” was part of one of five specifications of a systematic torture of prisoners and civilians, “willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Morris O. Killough, an American Prisoner of War, by beating and kicking him.”
31. southerner | March 27th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
Almiranta, regarding your off-topic comments about Michael Moore, it’s pretty obvious to anyone with half a brain who watches his documentaries that they are watching a polemic from a guy who has a certain point of view. I disagree with some of his tactics and have found that the editing in some of his films borders on being missleading (though this was truer in his earlier work like ‘Roger and Me’ than in his most interesting effforts), but overall he makes films which provide powerful arguments for his point of view.
One thing that’s interesting is that the right has failed to find a single film-maker who has managed to create ANY work which argues the rightwing cause with anywhere near the degree of commercial or critical success that Moore has. Why do you think that is? Surely it couldn’t be that once right-wing ideas are articulately elucidated they start to look ridiciulous? Can you imagine someone making a successful documentary arguing that the war in Iraq was a good idea? I think it’s fair to say that they’d have to ignore large swathes of reality to do so - that wouldn’t sit well with the viewing public and that’s why Fahrenheit 9/11 was a major success, and one that has not provoked any meaningful counter-response from the right.
Also, regarding your concern that your British interns have been mislead by his movies - in my experience British people are very well informed regarding world affairs. They are also naturally more cynical/sceptical about politicians than Americans, you only have to look at their press and television reporting to see this. I’m not just talking about the BBC or The Guardian which I’m sure you would dismiss as being part of the global leftist conspiracy you seem to see everywhere, I’m talking about outlets like Sky News (owned by Fox owning Rupert Murdock), the Times (ditto), and the whole range of quality newspapers and television stations the British are lucky enough to enjoy. We don’t get such quality coverage of world events over here and to be honest it’s much more likely that your unfortunate British interns secretly regard you as gullible, ill-informed and hopelessly naive regarding world affairs - they have been brought up in a culture to be sceptical of politicians of all shades, not just right or left wing ones.
32. js | March 27th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
LoL
You are batting 2 for 2 DT.
Just more confirmation.
BOTH forms of water torture you cite are NOT water boarding. They both entail massive ingestion of water.
you really forget the whole truth on this? the CIA employed waterboarding one what, three people in 2002…wow…and none of them were ever actually in physical danger…hmmm…funny how you do that….you cant compare apples to oranges, not the same stuff, only inept loozers try that.
33. js | March 27th, 2008 at 7:33 pm
southerner,
you can also lie by omission
and in moores sicko, this is a classic case of it
dont even try to tell us how great moore is, the man misrepresented 90% of that stupid film, you need to wake up sir
34. Diana Powe | March 27th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
js,
Believe it or not, just saying something isn’t true doesn’t constitute an argument. Also, anybody who knows anything about the issue knows that there are multiple forms of torture utilizing water which are collectively referred to as “waterboarding”. The fact that anyone would try to parse words over the issue of torture (who wasn’t currently running for president as a Republican, that is) is, in itself, an appalling statement. I’m sorry that you seem to feel no shame over it.
35. Diana Powe | March 27th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
Herkimer X. Arbuthnot,
Yes, I was trying to avoid being “honest” by providing the link for you to follow to the source. Darn, I didn’t think you’d actually do it. So, are you now claiming that since the water torture was only one of the specifications that it was actually okay?
36. southerner | March 27th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
Way to go with your classic ‘content free’ posts js. Once again you make charge but offer no evidence for you case. Yawn.
37. bubba | March 27th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
I’m actually quite surprised that no one in this thread has come out against eroding American sovereignty thru the creation of a League of Democracies.
What does anyone else think about eroding American sovereignty? Be it the UN, LOST, or this stupid League of Democracies?
38. Christian Wright | March 27th, 2008 at 9:45 pm
There is glory in individual acts of heroism, but there is no glory in a preemptive war. Only those who successfully defend themselves against a foreign occupation can be called glorious.
39. FmrMarine | March 27th, 2008 at 10:29 pm
CW
>>>>but there is no glory in a preemptive war. <<<
UMMMM….NOT !
War isnt about “glory”, it is about survival!
two or three small countries with a fanatical hate of Isreal, and a death wish, could ignite a fuse that would literally, consume most of mankind.
We simply cannot let sit back and let this happen.
40. js | March 27th, 2008 at 10:34 pm
actually DP, you really are not one to speak of such matter, and defending your ignorant rant really isnt worth a debate
the main thing i pointed out was your ignorance
“your word” really doesnt have much impact because its a lie
so who cares what your opinion is, its wrong from the gitgo
41. js | March 27th, 2008 at 10:35 pm
Water cure
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
For the 1916 film starring Oliver Hardy, see The Water Cure.
This is an article about a form of torture. For the “water cure” therapy used in the 18th and 19th century, see Water cure (therapy).
The Water Torture—Facsimile of a woodcut in J. Damhoudère’s Praxis Rerum Criminalium, Antwerp, 1556.Water cure is a form of water torture in which the victim is forced to drink large quantities of water in a short time, resulting in gastric distension, water intoxication, and possibly death.[1][2][3][4]
Often the victim has the mouth forced or wedged open, the nose closed with pincers and a funnel or strip of cloth forced down the throat. The victim has to drink all the water (or other liquids such as bile or urine) poured into the funnel to avoid drowning. The stomach fills until near bursting, and is sometimes beaten until the victim vomits and the torture begins again.
————————————–
now if you want me to, DT, I will continue on proving how much of a liar you are, test me? you cant compare this to waterboarding, its nothing like the same thing you idiot
42. js | March 27th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
dt
waterboarding is nothing like what your links called water torture, you dont have ANY idea what you are talking about
43. js | March 27th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
Waterboarding involves strapping a person down and pouring water over his cloth-covered face to create the sensation of drowning.
The way the CIA did it, there is never a threat to the subject. Its nothing more than mental stress.
the water torture techniques described in DP’s links describe water torture and water cure, which are both deadly to the subject.
There is a huge difference in the mild form of torture and what the Japanese did in WWII, as well as the water cure described in DP’s links. Its obsurd to create the image that the 3 people we waterboarded were put in any kind of physical danger.
In essence, DP’s accusations are outright lies because of the misrepresentation in the links she provided.
This is a liberal technique we find not so infrequently, when they really go WAAAY beyond reality to describe things, like this, and “Bush lied”.
The truth is, you cant trust these people, and DP and other lemmings of the liberal flavor bounce from lie, to lie to lie, and in the end, they can NOT stand up in the light of day with the truth.
44. Some Assembly Required | March 27th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
js, hogwash, torture is torture is torture is torture. No matter what the name on it our how it is conducted. If you inflict pain on someone who is your prisoner or when they cannot possibly defend themselves you are torturing them. You can spin and play semantics all you want but the truth of the matter is your arguing from a losing position.
I really don’t think you’d care about the difference between water cure or water boarding if someone held you down and did either to you. I know I certainly would not.
45. Diana Powe | March 27th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
js,
Again, I’m sorry that you cannot feel shame on trying to parse torture to make it “okay”. Senator McCain spoke truthfully (prior to his flip-flopping) last October 24th when he said, as reported by the New York Times:
As for your claims about how any of this compares to what the CIA or anyone else has done, let me clue you in on a something. You don’t know what the government did in those interrogations. How do I know that? Because the President says it’s all a secret and no one can describe it because to do so would allow our enemies to “train for it”. All he wants to say is (without providing any shred of evidence such as the CIA videotapes which were conveniently destroyed), “We don’t torture.” Well, according to you and your vast knowledge of what the President says is a secret, I guess they don’t need to “train” for anything because it’s more like a walk in the park on a sunny day or something.
46. FmrMarine | March 27th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
JS
SAR says
>>>js, hogwash, torture is torture is torture is torture. No matter what the name on it our how it is conducted<<<
I think ole kennedydrunk thought barking dogs, nekked piles of men, and panties on the head was torture also……OH the humanity.
These are the same people who give us 3600 dead babies a DAY, calling it “choice”.
I suppose sucking a live child out of the womb is not torture?
Sticking scissors in the neck of a 95% born child and sucking it’s brains out is not torture.
But
We get out panties in a wad when someone who just blew up a nightclub and 2-3 hundred people died, and they had some water squirted in their nose is torture.
M.Savage is right liberalism is a MENTAL DISEASE.
47. js | March 27th, 2008 at 11:08 pm
Actually, being in prison is torture.
Having to drive a car that needs a paint job is torture.
Waking up regreting having that abortion is torture.
Killing someone in a Car, and getting a DUI is torture.
Living for 10 years with out a drivers license because of a DUI is also torture.
But the truth about it all is that the way our people used waterboarding was no more torture than any of the above.
Reality. Thats what the Democrats do not want us to know about.
48. js | March 27th, 2008 at 11:10 pm
actually Fmrmarine, they had cloth bags over thier heads when the water hit
they barely got any water in thier nose or thier mouth
its all mental
49. Diana Powe | March 27th, 2008 at 11:20 pm
js,
As I’ve previously noted, unless you can demonstrate conclusively that you are within that fraction of the current Executive Branch that has been “briefed in” on the topic or you were someone who watched the now-destroyed CIA videotapes or you were one of the people using the techniques or you were one of the people who had the techniques used against them since 2001, then any and all things you say about the nature of the techniques are coming directly from your imagination and nowhere else. Now, tell me which category of people I’ve listed who actually do know what happened you fall in.
I also note with interest that you have nothing to say about what Senator McCain (circa 155 days ago and I haven’t seen anything about what he believes today) stated unequivocally about what is and is not torture. Of course, what can you say about it that doesn’t end up reflecting badly on Mr. Straight Talk?
50. js | March 27th, 2008 at 11:28 pm
you really missed the point dianapowe
i dont need to prove anything to you
I did prove you were a liar
thats all I feel i needed to do
I really dont need to prove anything else to you
so if you want more,
put both of your hands out, palms up
want in one hand, and poop in the other, and see which one fills up first.
good luck.
51. Diana Powe | March 27th, 2008 at 11:31 pm
Thank you, js, you have proven my point quite well.
52. js | March 27th, 2008 at 11:33 pm
you really missed the point dianapowe
i dont need to prove anything to you
I did prove you were a liar
thats all I feel i needed to do
I really dont need to prove anything else to you
so if you want more,
put both of your hands out, palms up
want in one hand, and poop in the other, and see which one fills up first.
good luck.
for some reason, you missed it again
i already proved all that need to be proven
i am not here to make you a happy bimbo
53. Diana Powe | March 27th, 2008 at 11:35 pm
As I said.
54. southerner | March 27th, 2008 at 11:40 pm
Mark, are you reading js’s comments recently? They don’t even make sense. When I come in here I at least try to address the issues raised in the original post but this guy is just getting tedious, you can’t have a debate when discourse is reduced to blather like this:
55. js | March 27th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
you cant debate liars southerner
it serves no purpose
56. southerner | March 27th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
Also:
57. js | March 27th, 2008 at 11:45 pm
if you really have any doubts, you can refer to wikipedia article on waterboarding, it tells you about the SERE course, and the use of waterboarding as a training instrument for military personnel
i went through that course, i know what they did
DP is lying, she is as clueless as a fly stuck in glue
58. js | March 27th, 2008 at 11:47 pm
oh, i still have the manual from that course
FM 21-76 Suvival Escape and Evasion
dont leave home without it!!
59. Diana Powe | March 27th, 2008 at 11:56 pm
Of course, js, we understand. You haven’t responded to my specific challenge to you in the first paragraph of Comment # 49 because you just can’t, except to say the equivalent of “liar, liar, pants on fire.”
60. js | March 27th, 2008 at 11:59 pm
actually, if you read my comment about debating issues with liars, then you should have gotten the point diana
im not into holding your hand defending your lies
you made statements that totally misrepresented the truth, I point that out as fact, and here you still want to debate lies
sorry, try the two hands trick, you will undoubtedly find plenty of amusement in that
61. Diana Powe | March 28th, 2008 at 12:03 am
We understand, js.
62. Mark Noonan | March 28th, 2008 at 12:48 am
southerner,
JS seems to be very knowledgable on his subjects - and he has neatly placed Diana in a box, if you ask me.
63. southerner | March 28th, 2008 at 12:58 am
Yeah, he’s placed her in a box by refusing her challenge to prove his point with any evidence. And it’s interesting to note that you’re happy to have a guy who seems obsessed with posting about holding out handfullos of poop and calling female posters bimbos on your side.
When viewed in the context of your recent tirade about cleaning up the tone of this blog I’d say that makes you a hypocrite Mark.
64. Diana Powe | March 28th, 2008 at 1:28 am
Mark,
I consider you to be rather intelligent man despite the reality that there are few things that are discussed here that I would agree with you on. As a result, I find it remarkable that you would actually claim with a straight face that js “has neatly placed [me] in a box”. Pray tell, since js cannot, how he is “very knowledgeable” about what, by every statement made by President Bush regarding the subject, is terribly, terribly secret because we don’t want the terrorists to learn what to “train for”. Are you saying that President Bush is hiding the contents of Wikipedia and Army FM 21-76 from the terrorists? That doesn’t seem very secret to me or are we just worried about really, really, really retarded terrorists who can’t get their hands on a copy of the manual or use the Internet?
Also, I’ll ask you. What do you make of the McCain flip-flop on torture from 155 days ago?
65. Joe | March 28th, 2008 at 7:27 am
wow Mark. I really am truly surprised at your defending js on this one.
Everyone is laying out thoughts and links to articles.
All js has done is put his hands over his ears and said no its not.
This was a pretty good debate and discussion going on. He has added nothing.
oh well…. next topic!
66. js | March 28th, 2008 at 8:53 am
you need to learn the basics about comprehending what you read joe
because you dont
that simple
67. InDaVa | March 28th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
McCain has flip flopped on so many issues its astounding that many don’t see it…or they are choosing to ignore it. Kerry flip flopped a couple times no doubt about that… but McCain is flip flopping away, and still going.
68. Diana Powe | March 28th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
Joe,
Mark’s been pretty busy writing other posts. It will be interesting if he comes back and tries to take up the questions I put to him. However, my suspicion is that he’ll just move on. After all, there’s nothing to see here…
Hey, js,
I’ll help you out here so you don’t have to type anything.
Is not.
Is not.
Is not, liar, liar, pants on fire!
69. Mark Noonan | March 28th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
Diana,
You linked to this:
As a crude attempt to make out our waterboarding being the equivalent of what war criminals did. JS pointed out that your attempt was absurd, and the only rejoinder you can make is along the lines of “well, you don’t know for certain that we’re not doing what war criminals do, and that means we’re probably doing it”.
You’re being entirely dishonest, Diana; JS called you on it, and boxed you in.
70. Diana Powe | March 28th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
Mark,
Nice try, but no cigar.
js wrote multiple comments (to the extent you can make sense of the ramblings) about what the United States government did in some publicly admitted interrogations using “enhanced interrogation techniques” including waterboarding. I called him on the fact that unless he falls into one of the categories of people that I outlined in my Comment # 49 then he can’t make comparisons because neither he nor you know what was done when the term “waterboarding” is used. It’s all just out of your vivid imaginings.
So, are you now going to essay an explanation as to why Senator John McCain’s called it torture before he flip-flopped?
71. Mark Noonan | March 28th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
Diana,
But we’re assured by people who do know that it isn’t what you think it is - and unless you have stand-up-in-court proof otherwise, then your accusations are in the nature of slander.
That aside…
McCain’s vote is probably predicated upon the desire not to hand you on the left a handy club to continually bring accusations of war crimes against our side. He knows you guys, ya know? Codify it like that, and your side will second guess every action, and insist on endless prosecutions to the point where our guys just stop getting the necessary information…which, of course, is what the hard, treasonous left (which does run your anti-war movement, even if you won’t admit it to yourself) wants…American defeat.