Open Thread: The Petraeus-Crocker Hearings
April 8th, 2008 at 12:22pm Matt Margolis
“Like most Americans, I’m eager to hear what General Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker have to say about military and political progress in Iraq. These men have spent decades mastering their respective professional fields. They deserve our respect.” -Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell
Mark and I are both at work… So feel free to talk about the hearings… give us the details of the Democrats’ defeatist grandstanding… Let’s have it.
UPDATE: Snippets of Patreus’s remarks:
Since September, levels of violence and civilian deaths have been reduced substantially, Al Qaeda-Iraq and a number of other extremist elements have been dealt serious blows, the capabilities of Iraqi Security Force elements have grown, and there has been noteworthy involvement of local Iraqis in local security. Nonetheless, the situation in certain areas is still unsatisfactory and innumerable challenges remain. Moreover, as events in the past two weeks have reminded us and as I have repeatedly cautioned, the progress made since last spring is fragile and reversible.
And yet, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton want to retreat.
A number of factors have contributed to the progress that has been made. First, of course, has been the impact of increased numbers of Coalition and Iraqi Forces. You are well aware of the U.S. surge. Less recognized is that Iraq has also conducted a surge, adding well over 100,000 additional soldiers and police to the ranks of its security forces in 2007 and slowly increasing its capability to deploy and employ these forces.
So, the surge is working and Iraqis are standing up and doing their part.
Entry Filed under: Open Thread
90 Comments
1. Plantation Owner | April 8th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Well we already know that Patraeus had been warned about bringing in good news by our “e-steamed” leaders of the liberal left.
Respect is something foriegn to the libs who will hear their testimony with the hearing accuity of Helen Keller.
2. Timothy Horrigan | April 8th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
I was disturbed by the fact that the Senators asked him pointed questions. There is no need to clarify any points… his opening statements said everything that needed to be said. And it is extremely risky to inquire openly into the very few things which went wrong in this great war…. this type of public discussion gives The Enemy valuable operational information… and more to the point this negative talk emboldens The Enemy! Also, Petraeus is the commander of our forces in Iraq, and hence he is beyond criticism.
3. Joe | April 8th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
”I was disturbed by the fact that the Senators asked him pointed questions. There is no need to clarify any points”
– As opposed to what? Just taking his opening statement and saying “OK… thanks for coming in”?
“And it is extremely risky to inquire openly into the very few things which went wrong in this great war”
— Did you say “very few things which went wrong” and call this a “great war”???????? Great war or war of choice? What exactly is so “great” about it? I’ll give you that the “war” went well. We deposed of Sadaam in no time. The occupation is what is an absolute mess.
“this type of public discussion gives The Enemy valuable operational information”
— Please explain what valuable information was given.
”and more to the point this negative talk emboldens The Enemy!”
— Oh my. Yes. It isn’t the fact that we are spinning our wheels in Iraq at all. It isn’t the fact that Iraq can’t get any political compromise. It is the negative talk in Iraq and questioning the commander.
”Also, Petraeus is the commander of our forces in Iraq, and hence he is beyond criticism.”
— No matter what? You really mean he can’t be criticized no matter what happens??
Wow Timothy. Are we talking about the same war?
4. Rich | April 8th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Um Joe I’m pretty sure Timothy was “trying” to be funny. The liberals would call it snark.
5. Diana Powe | April 8th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
Darn that Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC)! He’s telling us that all those times that victory was just around the corner didn’t mean anything:
6. Joe | April 8th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
Ya know Rich…. with what gets said on this site, I wouldn’t be so quick to claim it was a snark unless he claims it to be.
7. Rich | April 8th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Well Joe- click on his link and it looks like he has written a book about Bush being a liar. Oh well believe what you will.
8. Joe | April 8th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
McCain today……..
“Within reach”? Is that like the insurgency being in “its last throes”?
9. Joe | April 8th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
Rich, if that was sarcasm, then he did a great job. He sounded EXACTLY like some of the rightie posters on this site. All the same buzz words and everything.
10. js | April 8th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
what is this, a game of whose the schmuck between joe and rich? or is it joe and joe…so easy to change names, eh stooge?
when all else fails, you just talk to yourself!!
11. anotherjs | April 8th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
see, i can do it too schmuck, you think you are so smart….go figure….
12. Diana Powe | April 8th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
Senator McCain just can’t get it right and this time he doesn’t have Senator Lieberman to step up and whisper into his ear (emphasis added):
“Or Sunnis or anybody else”? Like who? The Catholics or the Rotary Club or the Scottish Rite Masons? Who, Senator, who? Just exactly when is Senator McCain going to learn or remember that al-Qaeda is a group of adherents to Sunni Islam? Tomorrow? Next week? This year? This is the great military hero leader who has made staying in Iraq his signature issue and he can’t even articulate the most basic facts correctly. Unbelievable. If this was Senator Clinton or Senator Obama who couldn’t get it right, there would be no end to the hue and cry.
13. Joe | April 8th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
js,
what the hell are you talking about? why can you never make a point?
14. Rich | April 8th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Um- Im’ not Joe- I’ve been posting on this site for about 5 years. i was just pointing out that Joe was in fact arguing with a lefty posing as a conservative.
15. js | April 8th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
14. Rich | April 8th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Um- Im’ not Joe-
———————
prove it
16. Joe | April 8th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
LOL js, you are making yourself look more and more like an ass.
Look at the thread on McCain raising $15 million. I am actually debating him.
I like debating Rich. he actually tries making points. Unlike you.
17. Rich | April 8th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Success is indeed within reach. If you haven’t noticed Al-Qaeda is on the way out and the various factions in the Iraqi government are coming together against Sadr and are getting close to kicking militias out of the political process. No lefties want to comment about the Kurds Sunnis and Shiites (besides Sadr’s faction) coming together? Also did you see that Sadr is thinking of disbanding his militia? Any libs on here that were crowing about Sadr’s amazing victory last week want to comment on why he is considering disbanding? Doesn’t sound like an action of somone that is victorious.
In advance don’t try and mention the several deaths from Iranian rockets in the past days. It won’t help your point as most lefties here have stated Iran is not killing our soldiers.
18. Diana Powe | April 8th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Well, no, we didn’t “see that Sadr is thinking about disbanding his militia” mostly because it’s not happening.
I also see that Rich is making the point that the manufacturers of weapons are responsible for their ultimate use. I’m sure that Colt, Smith & Wesson, Sig Arms, et al, will be interested to know that. Thanks, Rich.
19. kimberly4victory | April 8th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Did Senator Levin actually call General Petraeus “Admiral”? He doesn’t know the difference between a General and an Admiral? LOL!! What a putz!
Well said, Rich.
20. Joe | April 8th, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Rich,
Where are you pulling out that “Kurds Sunnis and Shiites (besides Sadr’s faction) coming together”?
Also, are you suggesting that the Iranians are shooting those rockets that killed some US troops yesterday? What proof is there of that?
21. kimberly4victory | April 8th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
Iraq’s Sadr to Disband Militia if Ordered by Clerics
Reuters
Monday, April 7, 2008; 8:26 AM
NAJAF, Iraq, April 7 — Iraqi Shi’ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr will disband his Mehdi Army militia if top Shi’ite clerics including Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani order him to do so, a senior Sadr aide told Reuters on Monday.
Aide Hassan Zargani told Reuters that Sadr had told his representatives in both the holy Iraqi city of Najaf and also the Iranian city of Qom to ask top Shi’ite religious leaders for advice on whether to dissolve the militia.
“If they order the Mehdi Army to disband, Moqtada al-Sadr and the Sadr movement will obey the orders of the religious leaders,” said Zargani, who was speaking from Iran.
The development came after Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki raised the stakes in a showdown with Sadr’s millions of followers by saying they would be barred from elections later this year unless the Mehdi Army was dissolved.
“Moqtada al-Sadr has ordered his office in Najaf and Qom to form a delegation to visit Sistani in Najaf and (other leaders) in Qom to discuss the disbanding of the Mehdi Army,” said Zargani. The ageing Sistani is the highest Shi’ite religious authority in Iraq and is revered by millions. He lives in Najaf.
Maliki launched a crackdown on the Mehdi Army in the southern city of Basra late last month, triggering an uprising across Baghdad and Shi’ite southern Iraq.
22. anotherJackasS | April 8th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
Hey js, how are you doing today? Did you have your wheeties?
23. Joe | April 8th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
k4v,
I have searched everywhere I could. i see nothing that says/shows Leahy calling him Admiral.
You really need to prove that or I’d have to call you out on a lie.
24. Diana Powe | April 8th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
I strongly suspect that Moqtada al-Sadr is aware of the organizational principle of “if you can’t stand the answer, don’t ask the question”. So, if he submits the legitimacy of his militia to a clerical ruling AND they affirm it then how much does that add to his legitimacy among the population at large as compared to Prime Minister al-Maliki?
25. kimberly4victory | April 8th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Silly boy, I didn’t say LEAHY.
OT:
Dems Refuse the Pledge of Allegiance at Washington Caucus
Democrats voted down reciting the Pledge of Allegiance at their caucus this weekend in Seattle.
There was some time to kill as multiple tallies of the delegates and alternates were done, and when the time-killer of taking audience questions had run its course and the idea of teling jokes had been nixed, someone suggested doing the Pledge of Allegiance to pass the time. (Are you listening, right-wing bloggers? This is going to get good.)
At the mere mention of doing the pledge there were groans and boos. Then, when the district chair put the idea of doing the Pledge of Allegiance up to a vote, it was overwhelmingly voted down. One might more accurately say the idea of pledging allegiance to the flag (of which there was only one in the room, by the way, on some delegate’s hat) was shouted down.
But… Please don’t question their patriotism.
UNBELIEVABLE!!
26. kimberly4victory | April 8th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
I guess we’ll just have to wait and see, DianA. I am hoping the Clerics tell him to lay down his arms and break up his militia.
Don’t you?????
27. Joe | April 8th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
k4v,
My bad. I was thinking Leahy. I see a couple of hits on Levin calling him that. I was half listening at work today and didn’t hear that.
Maybe he said it, I don’t know.
Why is he a putz for that, but McCain isn’t a putz for not knowing the difference between Shia and Sunni?
Regarding the pledge of allegience thing you mention… I only see hits on one blog about it.
Yes we all want him to lay down his arms. How do you feel that it is Iran telling him to do so?
28. kimberly4victory | April 8th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
I dunno. Maybe because Levin is the Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee? LOL!! I’m sure it will up on YouTube soon. BTW, I never said McCain wasn’t a putz for his blunder.
Does it really matter who tells Sadr to do it … as long as he does it?
29. Plantation Owner | April 8th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Amazing…….these libs think they are qualified to be armchair commanders.
Of course, the actual commander does not know what he is talking about, but these libs are experts.
Funny they repeat what others tell them.
Repeat the mantra…Iraq is a failure….Iraq is a failure….Iraq is a failure……
I can see why ToLBS correctly labels them USEFUL IDIOTS.
30. Diana Powe | April 8th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Oh, I see. As long as you point out that you’re bringing up something that’s off topic then that makes it okay to violate Mark’s rule. Yes, those unpatriotic Democrats who were in the midst of being bored stiff, weren’t interested in the off-hand idea of pledging allegiance to the flag on someone’s hat as a way to relieve the boredom. That clearly shows the superiority of Republicans because we know they would have jumped at the chance to pledge allegiance to a hat-borne flag. Pretty weak tea, even by the standards of Michelle Malkin.
It would be great if everybody in Iraq laid down their arms except for the police and the Iraqi Army. It would be great if we weren’t in the middle of a civil war in Iraq. Magic ponies would be nice, as well.
31. Rich | April 8th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Kimberly beat me to the Sadr story. Also it is nice to note that Diana “a.k.a. Tokyo Rose” comes to Al Sadr’s defense once again like clockwork. She also seems to be totally ok that Iranian heavy rocketry is being supplied to militias to be used on American soldiers. Do you really want to compare Smith and Wesson’s to rockets Diana? What did our troops ever do to you that makes you side with the enemy? If I supplied a gang member with a rocket and they blew up your house with it, might you hold me accountable?
32. Rich | April 8th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Now we have Toky Rose spinning a possible disbanding of Al Sadr’s militia as a show of strength and quest for legitimacy. Amazing what you will write to try and grasp on to your American hating viewpoint.
33. Rich | April 8th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
“Where are you pulling out that “Kurds Sunnis and Shiites (besides Sadr’s faction) coming together”?
Here ya go Joe-
http://airforcepundit.blogspot.com/2008/04/iraqi-politicians-coming-together-to.html
Iraq’s major Shiite, Sunni and Kurdish parties have closed ranks to pressure anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr into disbanding his Mahdi Army militia or be barred from political life, lawmakers and officials involved in the effort said Sunday. They said a first step would be to add language to a draft election bill banning parties that operate militias from fielding candidates in provincial balloting this fall. “We want the Sadrists to disband the Mahdi Army. Just freezing it is no longer acceptable,” said Sadiq al-Rikabi, a senior adviser to Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki. “The new election law will prevent any party that has weapons or runs a militia from contesting elections.” Such a bold move risks a violent backlash by the Mahdi militia. If it succeeds, however, it would mark a major realignment of Iraq’s political landscape. U.S. officials have been pressing Iraq’s government for years to disband the militias, including the Mahdi Army. All major political parties are believed to main
One of the Sadrists who attended, lawmaker Hassan al-Rubaie, confirmed Talabani’s account and said “our political isolation was very clear and real during the meeting.”
“We, the Sadrists, are in a predicament,” he said Sunday. “Even the blocs that had in the past supported us are now against us and we cannot stop them from taking action against us in parliament.” Al-Sadr controls 30 of the 275 parliament seats, a substantial figure but not enough to block legislation. Al-Rubaie said the threat was so serious that a delegation might have to discuss the issue with al-Sadr in person. The young cleric is believed to be in the Iranian holy city of Qom.
34. kimberly4victory | April 8th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Waaaah! It’s just not fair, Mark. Waaaah! LOL!
More defeatist rhetoric from our resident “Tokyo Rose”. Good one, Rich.
I am so proud of General Petraeus! He’s done such a great job, despite Code Pinko’s interruptions and the Democrat’s hemming and hawing.
35. Rich | April 8th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
Care to comment on that Joe. As far as Iranians firing rockets, I said the Iranians are supplying the rockets and unless you believe that Al-sadr has a rocket factory somewhere, you must agree that is where he is getting them. As I wrote earlier, if I gave somone a rocket to be used to blow up your house, would i not be responsible? We are talking simple cause and effect here people, I know you understand it.
36. Diana Powe | April 8th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
Oh, no! Rich isn’t getting his fair share of the magic ponies so now he’s mad. What can he do? I know, he can use the classic tactic of demonizing the opposition which, in this instance, includes the overwhelming number of Americans who agree that we made a mistake in invading Iraq and that we should set a timetable for leaving Iraq no matter what the situation in the country is at the time. Nice job of showing how totally fringe your beliefs are.
37. Diana Powe | April 8th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
Darn all that overwhelming majority of Americans, especially all of those independents! They’re spoiling all our anticipation of Glorious Victory ™.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/106309/Iraq-War-Attitudes-Politically-Polarized.aspx
38. SteaM | April 8th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
I wonder how long it will take for us to seriously question our administrations lovefest with the Saudis?
39. Rich | April 8th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
I don’t see anything in that link about the american public cheerleading for Al-sadr, which is my accusation against you. I also havent seen you address the Iranian rockets killing our soldiers other than to use a phony correlation to “guns don’t kill people, people kill people”. I also havent seen you comment on the Iraqis coming together against Al-sadr. No you are commenting about magic ponies. One more time, lets see if you will answer- If I give somone a rocket with the express purpose of blowing up your house, am I responsible?
40. Diana Powe | April 8th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Yes, if you instructed someone to blow up my house with a rocket, you would be partly responsible. However, your evidence that exactly what person or persons who are both citizens of Iran and are part of the central government of Iran gave rockets to person or persons who are citizens of Iraq and said, “Kill Americans with these” is what?
Although you obviously resent it (perhaps the way you resent the outcome of the elections of November 2006), Moqtada al-Sadr is a completely legitimate political figure in the democratically-elected government of Iraq. Supposedly, those waving purple fingers were part of the big success that Senator Graham today said wasn’t signs of victory after all. Also, saying that Iraqis are “coming together against al-Sadr” is precisely meaningless. Which Iraqis and in what number are they doing this and what does this imagined “coming together” constitute other than more civil war for the United States to be in the middle of?
I note with interest that you have nothing to say about the fact that the American people are opposed to our presence in Iraq except to note (apropos of nothing) that you don’t “see anything in that link about the american public cheerleading for Al-sadr”.
41. jt | April 8th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
K4V,
“But… Please don’t question their patriotism.”
Take a look at the people you are supporting.Oh, you mean like the Republicans who recently voted against the Troop-Protection Amendment. Take a look at the people you are supporting. Despicable!
42. kimberly4victory | April 8th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
OMG! The Dems and RINOs are embarrassing themselves terribly with their defeatist rhetoric. Petraeus is smacking them down, left and right.
Makes me proud to be a military brat and American!
43. Tractatus | April 8th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
Whom are our troops supporting?
That one’s gonna piss Kahn off pretty good.
44. kimberly4victory | April 8th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
How many troops were polled, Tract? Five?
THANK GOD! They finally removed the Pinko Commies from the hearing. It’s about time.
45. Diana Powe | April 8th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
BAYH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you, gentlemen, for your patience and your testimony here today, and, most of all, for your service to our country.
We may have some differences of opinion about the way forward in Iraq, but none of us question your service to our country or the candor of your testimony today. So I’m grateful to you for that.
I have the privilege of serving on the Intelligence Committee as well as the Armed Service Committee. And I’m struck, in reading the most recent national intelligence estimate, which we can’t discuss here in detail today, but both reading that and listening to your testimony here today and listening to some of the dialogue about how all of this is subject to differing interpretations.
And I would just ask you the question, isn’t it true that a fair amount of humility is in order in rendering judgments about the way forward in Iraq, that no one can speak with great confidence about what is likely to occur? Is that a fair observation?
PETRAEUS: It is very fair, Senator, and it’s why I repeatedly noted that we haven’t turned any corners, we haven’t seen any lights at the end of the tunnel. The champagne bottle has been pushed to the back of the refrigerator. And the progress, while real, is fragile and is reversible.
BAYH: In fact, reasonable people can differ about the most effective way forward. Is that not also a fair observation?
PETRAEUS: I don’t know whether I would go that far, sir. Obviously I think that there is a way forward. I’ve made the recommendation on that. And so, I think, in that sense, that…
BAYH: General, you would not — you would not mean to say that anyone who would have a different opinion is, by definition, an unreasonable person?
PETRAEUS: Senator, lots of things in life are arguable. And, certainly, there are lots of different opinions out there. But, again, if you — I believe that the recommendations that I have made are correct…
BAYH: Here’s the reason for my question, gentlemen. Just as I acknowledge your honor and patriotism, which I think is absolutely appropriate, I hope you would acknowledge the honor and patriotism of those who have — look at this very complex set of facts and simply have a different point of view.
And, as you both are aware, some argue that to not embrace the assessment that you’re giving us is, in fact, to embrace defeat or to embrace failure in Iraq. And I simply would disagree with those characterizations. And that was the reason for my question to you.
PETRAEUS: Senator, we fight for the right of people to have other opinions.
46. Rich | April 8th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
“However, your evidence that exactly what person or persons who are both citizens of Iran and are part of the central government of Iran gave rockets to person or persons who are citizens of Iraq and said, “Kill Americans with these” is what?”
Well these rockets are made by the government of Iran, not private companies. Al Sadr is in Iran with the governments approval. There is plenty of evidence that the Quds force is responsible for training Al sadr’s men with the use of Iranian made and Iranian supplied rockets. No I don’t have a written letter from Ahmadinejad to the footsoldiers saying “Hey shoot these at Americans”, I don’t need one. Here you go taking the side of america’s enemies again.
“Which Iraqis and in what number are they doing this and what does this imagined “coming together” constitute other than more civil war for the United States to be in the middle of?”
Which Iraqis?
“Iraq’s major Shiite, Sunni and Kurdish parties have closed ranks to pressure anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr into disbanding his Mahdi Army militia or be barred from political life”
Wow that was hard.
“what does this imagined “coming together” constitute other than more civil war for the United States to be in the middle of?”
Well I don’t see how “disbanding his Mahdi Army militia or be barred from political life” is making more civil war. Looks like kicking him out of politics unless he disbands is a good thing. I thought you were for getting weapons off the streets in Iraq. Now you are against it because they are in hands hands of your buddy Al Sadr? Is there nothing you won’t say to support this man? Are you on his payroll? It is sickening, you will take any position imaginable to make the U.S. look bad. You are a propagandist of the first order. If this were my blog you would be banned.
P.S. polls go up and down and are not equivalent to morality or good decision making. Put a poll out tomorrow on how many people want the government to give them one million dollars and see what you get. This is why we live in a Republic and not a Democracy.
47. Diana Powe | April 8th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
The “Pinko Commies”. What a laugh. Anyone who agrees with the overwhelming majority of American opinion is now a “Pinko Commie” sez kimberly4victory.
48. kimberly4victory | April 8th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
Nope, Powe. Members of Code Pink ARE commies.
“Senator, we fight for the right of people to have other opinions.”
Excellent!
49. Diana Powe | April 8th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
Rich,
Sorry, but the fact that you want to enforce your minority point of view on this country’s invasion of Iraq on everyone else doesn’t wash as General Petraeus noted in response to Senator Bayh. Your view is most definitely in the minority and has been for years as poll after poll after poll has shown that Americans want our troops out of Iraq and want them out without preconditions. Also, Americans by a huge majority disagree with you on the importance of polling data in political decision making:
As I said, your distinctly fringe and minority opinion.
50. Diana Powe | April 8th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
Okay, prove it.
51. Rich | April 8th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
I’ll let the man in charge of our military in Iraq tell you about Iran Diana-
“Recently, of course, some militia elements became active again. Though a Sadr stand-down resolved the situation to a degree, the flare-up also highlighted the destructive role Iran has played in funding, training, arming and directing the so-called special groups, and generated renewed concern about Iran in the minds of many Iraqi leaders. Unchecked, the special groups pose the greatest long-term threat to the viability of a democratic Iraq.”
52. DBM | April 8th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
Regarding the despicable act of Democrats refusing to take the pledge of allegiance…
… I also possess anecdotal evidence that many of them also refuse to put those yellow magnets on their cars, wear flag lapel pins, and undertake other hollow symbolic actions.
53. Diana Powe | April 8th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Yes, we should uncritically believe General Petraeus because, after all, military officers are never under any kind of political pressure from their civilian superiors.
54. SteaM | April 8th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
Code Pink members are patriots.
55. Rich | April 8th, 2008 at 5:42 pm
Quote of the day from Diana-
“Moqtada al-Sadr is a completely legitimate political figure in the democratically-elected government of Iraq.”
Im sorry what position was Al-Sadr elected to and do legitimate political figures take up arms against their democratically elected governments and remain legitimate? I’m trying to picture Jefferson Davis coming to the senate to vote after the attack on Fort Sumter.
56. Rich | April 8th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Ah masterful work Diana. You quote the good general upthread when it suits you and then question his honesty and integrity downthread when he demolishes one of your arguments. Truly, you are pathetic.
57. Rich | April 8th, 2008 at 5:48 pm
Actually I’m wondering how come Diana is not testifying before congress today as she know more about the facts on the ground than the General does.
58. kimberly4victory | April 8th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
While Code Pink activists condemn President Bush for his “fear-based politics that justify violence,” they applaud brutal dictators like Hugo Chavez and Fidel Castro.
Three of their top leaders, Cindy Sheehan, Jodie Evans and Medea Benjamin, took a trip to Venezuela to meet and socialize with Dictator Chavez. He endorsed their efforts to subvert American authority and denounce the President of the United States as imperialistic. Jodie Evans reported after the meeting, “He called Cindy (Sheehan) ‘Mrs. Hope.’”
In their efforts to discredit America, Code Pink leader Medea Benjamin and her husband, Kevin Danaher, organize trips for young anti-Americans to build coalitions in countries such as Iran, Syria, Venezuela and Cuba, among others.
Commies or Patriots. You decide.
59. kimberly4victory | April 8th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
“Actually I’m wondering how come Diana is not testifying before congress today as she know more about the facts on the ground than the General does.”
LOL, Rich!!
60. Matt Margolis | April 8th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
Tractatus,
I’m sure even you can understand that the “story” you cited in comment #43 was not a poll. The story was whatever the author wanted it to be. But, the fact remains that the military has gone largely for the Republican Party, so the fact that the only troops quoted in the story were either for Hillary or Obama. I mean seriously.
If a similar story was published but all the troops quoted supported McCain, you’d not give the story much weight.
61. Diana Powe | April 8th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
Rich,
Had you bothered to read what I wrote you would note the phrase I used is “political figure” NOT “elected official”. Only the most naive would assert that politics is just a matter of those elected to hold office.
62. kimberly4victory | April 8th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Sowing the seeds of anti-Americanism by discrediting the American president was one of the main tasks of the Soviet-bloc intelligence community during the years I worked at its top levels. This same strategy is at work today, but it is regarded as bad manners to point out the Soviet parallels.
– Lt. Gen. Ion Mihai Pacepa
63. Diana Powe | April 8th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
kimberly4victory,
Quite obviously, your definition of who adheres with and advocates the ideology of Communism is both expansive and idiosyncratic. It wouldn’t have anything to do with smearing people who want to disagree with your minority position on our invasion of Iraq would it? Naaa, probably not.
64. Rich | April 8th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
No Diana, naive is believing rockets made by the Iranian government get into the hands of Al-sadr’s forces without the intention of the Iranian Government? How did they get there? Maybe your magical ponies brought them.
P.S. still waiting for you to explain why you quoted the general upthread for your own purpose and then asumed he was dishonest downthread when your argument about Iran was destroyed. People usually don’t try and discredit their own sources but who knows how you operate. You seem to be throwing feces in every direction and hoping something sticks at this point in time.
65. Diana Powe | April 8th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
Ahh, now kimberly4victory wants us to know that criticizing the President (or his proxies?) is tantamount to being anti-American. The authoritarian tendencies become less subtle all the time. Thank you for the enlightening comment.
66. SteaM | April 8th, 2008 at 6:20 pm
I’d say Code Pink members are accurately described as dissenters. Does that make them communists? Hardly.
Political dissension is doubtless a less evil than the lethargy of despotism: but still it is a great evil, and it would be as worthy the efforts of the patriot as of the philosopher, to exclude it’s influence if possible, from social life. The good are rare enough at best. There is no reason to subdivide them by artificial lines. But whether we shall ever be able so far to perfect the principles of society as that political opinions shall, in it’s intercourse, be as inoffensive as those of philosophy, mechanics, or any other, may well be doubted.” TJ to Thomas Pinckney, 29 May 1797
67. Diana Powe | April 8th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
Rich,
Do you have any conception of how Byzantine the religious and political landscape of Iran is? I know you want to believe that the Iranian government has ordered attacks on Americans, but wanting to believe and having evidence is two different things.
I quote Gen. Petraeus relative to civil liberties because he is correct. I question anyone simply accepting at face value his solo assessment of a situation that was created and is being vigorously politicized by his superiors because to do so is to be politically naive. It isn’t that difficult.
68. kimberly4victory | April 8th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
You’re welcome, DP. Knew you’d love it.
Cozying up to communist leaders like Chavez … wearing t-shirts with his image … leader of Code Pink saying There is nothing wrong with communism … the list goes on.
But, hey, you’ve got your opinion. I’ve got mine. And, we can both thank General Petraeus and our troops for giving us that right.
69. Diana Powe | April 8th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
It’s just too bad we had to send our troops off to Iraq instead of defending our rights. However, that is not the fault of General Petraeus or any of those serving in uniform. The ample blame lies on their civilian leadership.
70. Tractatus | April 8th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
So, the surge is working and Iraqis are standing up and doing their part.
Also, 9/11 changed everything, we’ve turned a corner, and we’re staying the course!
Looks like Matt’s Talking Point-o-matic is giving him a solid ROI today. Sure beats thinking for yourself, right Matt?
71. kimberly4victory | April 8th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
Senator Boxer of California had a question about hearts, minds and kisses. “After all we have done, the Iraqi government kisses the Iranian leader,” she said. “Our president has to sneak into the country.” (I think I heard that lefty talking point on this blog!)
Minutes later, Ambassador Crocker noted Vice President Cheney’s “very warm recession” during a recent visit to Iraq. Out of nowhere, Senator Biden jumps in to demand more details. “Did he get kissed?”
In a rare moment of surprise, Mr. Crocker’s face turned from unblinking and blank to nodding and amused. “I believe he did get kissed,” he answered. Before he could finish, the image formed in minds around the room, sparking a round of chuckles.
72. Diana Powe | April 8th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
No kidding. Now, if Senator McCain could only get that whole Shi’a Islam - Sunni Islam distinction straight in his head since Iraq is his signature issue and all.
73. Rich | April 8th, 2008 at 7:12 pm
Think on the bright side Diana- your buddy Obama wants to meet with your buddies in Iran. You know the ones that are killing our troops by providing rockets and training to Al Sadr. Would he ask them to stop killing our troops as a pre-condition for talks? I wonder if he will ask them why they execute gay people over there?
74. NeoClown | April 8th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Five years in.
4,024 dead.
Half a trillion dollars gone.
The situation is tenuous.
We can loose everything we’ve gained in a blink of an eye.
The Iraqis haven’t reached a political settlement yet and they won’t for years if ever.
Life is good.
75. NeoClown | April 8th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
“26. kimberly4victory | April 8th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
I am hoping the Clerics tell him to lay down his arms and break up his militia.
Don’t you?????”
Kimberly,
Do you want to spread democracy or not? American style Democracy means carring a gun.
Right wingers insist that more guns will make us more safe. Please stop being a defeatocrat.
76. Joe | April 8th, 2008 at 8:51 pm
Rich re: #33
Great, they are supposedly coming together to tell Muqtada al-Sadr to cut the crap. Excellent.
Hve they come together on anything other than that? The whole point of the surge was to allow them time and space to have political reconcilliation. Coming together to tell al-sadr to stop killing, I guess, is a step… albeit an incredibly smll step. Of course, it was the iranians that are asking him to stop and not the Iraqis.
77. maryjane | April 8th, 2008 at 8:57 pm
If god has a sense of humor, he certainly is getting material from folks like K4V. The supreme irony is that the more she supports the actions of the Bush Administration in Iraq (circumventing the US Congress and letting the Iraqi congress decided when or if we can ever leave; for example) the more she supports “the enemy”. An amphorous, phantasmagorical entity that she can’t describe but knows all about. The real enemy of the constitution of the United States and all that it procalims and protects are people like her. Authoritarian bigots who know the answers before the questions are asked and are entrenched in their opinions, disdainful of facts and hostile to anyone who doesn’t agree with them. Not unlike any other sect or cult. The general himself has said numerous times that there is no military solution to Iraq.
Give up the ghost Kim. You’re already dead.
78. kimberly4victory | April 8th, 2008 at 9:08 pm
Thanks for the good laugh, maryjane!
79. maryjane | April 8th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
You are most welcome!!
80. Dennis | April 8th, 2008 at 10:02 pm
kimberly4victory: “But, hey, you’ve got your opinion. I’ve got mine. And, we can both thank General Petraeus and our troops for giving us that right.”
No, kim, it was the founders of our nation who gave us that right, and wrote it into our Bill of Rights. All Petraeus and the troops are doing is following the bidding of their commander guy, Mr. Bush.
Fighting in the Iraq war has zero, zip, nada to do with upholding the Bill of Rights. In fact, a strong case may be made that it is undermining it, since the manner in which we went to war circumvented Constitutional protocols entirely.
81. Diana Powe | April 8th, 2008 at 10:04 pm
Ambassador Crocker looked excrutiatingly uncomfortable as he answered a question from Senator Clinton about an agreement covering our continued presence in Iraq which will be considered by the Iraqi Parliment, but not by those butt-in-skies in the Congress:
Yeah, Congress. Just shut up. Your job is to supply the money demanded by the Administration, not to exercise any kind of oversight as you represent the people of this country.
82. Dennis | April 8th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
Diana Powe (post 81) - thank you.
Another sad example of how this war is undermining if not destroying the ideal so eloquently spoken by Abraham Lincoln in the Gettysburg Address:
“…and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.”
83. Marty | April 8th, 2008 at 10:32 pm
Deleted - just too vile a comment.
84. Judith | April 8th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
What is it with these”patriots” who can’t stop ranting about the war. You can be discussing the weather and they bring it up. Maybe they make their opinions from the polls. Really bothers them doesn’t it? If they weren’t busy protesting, what would they be doing except drawing welfare and getting in the way of hardworking citizens. Don’t want to say the pledge, get the hell out. Don’t want to support the soldiers, get the hell out. They have no self respect so cannot respect others.
85. Dennis | April 8th, 2008 at 11:33 pm
I believe Judith’s comment far more vile than Marty’s was. She speaks derogatorily of people who oppose the war and says, “Don’t want to support the soldiers, get the hell out.” That is a slap in the face to both America’s founders and our Constitution.
Thomas Jefferson: “I abhor war and view it as the greatest scourge of mankind… War is an instrument entirely inefficient toward redressing wrong; and multiplies, instead of indemnifying losses.”
James Madison: “Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is perhaps the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other… In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people…
“The Constitution expressly and exclusively vests in the Legislature the power of declaring a state of war, the power of raising armies… A delegation of such powers [to the President] would have struck, not only at the fabric of our Constitution, but at the foundation of all well organized and well checked governments.”
John Quincy Adams: “Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will [America's] heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own.”
86. Diana Powe | April 9th, 2008 at 12:19 am
No surprise here:
87. bagni | April 9th, 2008 at 1:10 am
matt-traeus
after reading this thread
the interplanetary idiots wonder ?
are you doing exactly what osama bin laden wants you to do?
is it starting to seem that way…..???
88. Dennis | April 9th, 2008 at 1:34 am
Yes Bagni - these outstanding patriots have chosen to be pawns of bin Laden, rather than disciples of Thomas Jefferson or James Madison…
89. Joe | April 9th, 2008 at 10:45 am
John McCain at yesterday’s hearing:
After screwing up that AQ is NOT Shia 4 times on his Mid-East trip, he does it AGAIN?????
Is he senial? Is he lying? Is he confused? All of the above?
Why can he not get this right?
Damn if Obama or Clinton did this just once they would be dragged thru the lambasted by the right. McCain has now done if FIVE TIMES and you don’t seem to have a problem with this.
90. Jay Gaultieri | April 9th, 2008 at 11:18 am
General Petraeus is doing a soldier’s duty. He’s doing as he’s told: insist progress has been made, but insist it is fragile and that the next six months are critical. He is also advocating that the right course of action is more of the same. And unfortunately that’s the only action ever put forth. Violence is up, more of the same. Violence is down, more of the same. 3000 dead, more of the same. 4000 dead, more of the same. 100 billion dollars, more of the same. 400 billion dollars, more of the same. Two years, more of the same. Five years, more of the same. And the American people should go to the mall.
General Petraeus shouldn’t be on Capitol Hill trying to defend why peace in Iraq is forever just six months out. The man who should be doing that is hiding behind the General like he constantly hides behind the military. And President Bush answering questions under oath is an event just like peace in Iraq six months from now: It’s never going to happen.