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• 1. Tax » An Interestin&hellip  |  April 10th, 2008 at 4:51 am

  […] Rediff India - Get Ahead in Life: Indian lifestyle, career, money matters and Leisure wrote an interesting post today on An Interesting Way to Attack Social DisintegrationHere’s a quick excerptNow it occurs to me that we could, in effect, place a tax on popular culture - make it help pay for the problems it helps create. […]

• 2. Some Assembly Required  |  April 10th, 2008 at 5:58 am

  Mark, though I basicly agree with almost everything you have put forward here, pop culture has it’s own way of phasing out such things. Take the ‘Dico’ of the 70’s, ‘cock rock’ of the 80’s, ‘boy bands’ of the early 90’s… Music and pop culture has evolved. It’s truly degraded a lot over the decades into what it is now, but it will change again. Saying this there are bands out there such as Rise Against and Against Me! (first two which come to mind) that have politically charged lyrics which tackle issues for those willing to listen. Without inciting killing each other for ‘bitches and ho’s’ and ‘bling’.

  My personal opinion about ‘gangster rap’ is that is only furthers the stereotype. I have extreme respect for Tupac as an artist, but I think even he would be disappointed as to where the rap and hip-hop industry have fallen since he departed. I often wonder why the black community does not phase it out themselves. I understand it represents ghetto life and the struggles they face on the ’streets’ but making that line of thinking main stream is only hurting there cause IMO. Take for example if the Klan was still a prominent group in America and had ‘Klan Country’ playing mainstream. I wonder instead of turning guns sideways to be cool would they tie newses with double knots?!?!? Seriously though, white people would be a long time trying to live down that stereotype. I think the same holds true here for this ‘gangster culture’.

  With this culture in the mainstream is it really that big of a stretch to wonder why Obama’s grandmother may have said what he said she did?

• 3. js  |  April 10th, 2008 at 6:22 am

  Led Zepplin and ZZ Top promoted the same stuff. Rock n Roll though, its not rap, its not the carvival hip hop stuff of gangsta’s, real rock is like the Momma’s and the Poppa’s, Bee Gee’s, Tommy James and the Shondells, the Beatles…etc….

  Does popular music bear a responsibility though? Where is the line? Followed up on some of the lyrics on that stuff? Anti White Rap is perverse. Its not art when you write a war song promoting racism. Its racism. ….but who gets it out there, who pushes the cd sales, video promotions, and who gets the biggest bang for thier bucks? Look no further than the members of RIA, the same group that is sueing hometown america for copying the stuff from the internet….

  There is a responsiblity that begins at home also…if we teach our children right from wrong, these useless rap star gangsta’s would never see the light of day with thier trashed mentality…

• 4. Some Assembly Required  |  April 10th, 2008 at 6:38 am

  js,

  For my money, Zeppelin, Floyd, Hendrix, Dylan, Black Sabbath, The Who, The Beatles, etc… are Rock and Roll. Though they promoted drugs and promiscuity they did not promote violence the way it is today. Also, Payola in the 50’s has directly contributed to the state of popular music since. Top 40 songs decided by record companies… I still say the best music out there today is the underground stuff. Aside from that Pearl Jam has to rank up there.

  With the internet, P2P networks and torrents I do not think responsibility with what children are viewing can be enforced in the home anymore. I think education and values need to be stronger in the home though. Kids will listen or see anything and everything with the simple click of a mouse. Giving them sufficient incite into making the ‘right’ decisions on what they want to see or listen to is the best that we can do now a days IMO.

• 5. js  |  April 10th, 2008 at 7:24 am

  Really, I disagree. My kid had the internet since he was 8, and is a college graduate today. Going to school still, actually. I dont think he will ever stop, he also was taught that from his parents.

  Just like you. Its never too late to learn.

• 6. OhioOrrin  |  April 10th, 2008 at 8:10 am

  I don’t like this “thought police” mentality.

  it is a matter of personal responsibility, just like erecting a step ladder on glare ice yet suing the manufacturer cause there wasn’t a “warning label” stating ur dumb a$$ was gonna take a fall.

  bad song = turn the dial !

  once again, having it 5 different ways is bad public policy.

• 7. Some Assembly Required  |  April 10th, 2008 at 8:50 am

  #5. js | April 10th, 2008 at 7:24 am

  Having the internet does not make you a bad person or lead you to violence. If anything it’s quite the opposite as long as you can distinguish between horse crap and actual information that is well sourced from multiple credible authors or papers. But it is IMO parents who instill morals and values into their children. More often then not the children take on that same morals as their parents. They will fight them at first but in the end the majority do take on the same traits as their parents whether they’d like to admit it or not.

  I’m glad your son graduated college and he is not a victim of ‘that damn rap music’.

• 8. FoolYouTwice  |  April 10th, 2008 at 9:01 am

  What do you think?

  I think you are an idiot.

  Is it only musicians that you want to pay fines or be imprisoned. What about actors, directors, producers of movies? What about authors and publishers? Could you, in your fantasy world, for example be sued or imprisoned if someone believed your “book” was “bad” in some way? Who gets to determine what music is bad and what music is good?

  Can we sue the local news for reporting about violence every night of the week? Is that acceptable but rap music discussing violence wouldn’t be? Should the governator Arnold be sued or imprisoned for his contributions to violence in art?

  Before you spew some crap, maybe think through it a little bit more next time. Don’t talk about believing in the constitution out of one side of your mouth and then support suing artists because you don’t like their subject matter.

  Can I sue pastors of church’s who rake in huge profits because I don’t like what they preach about every sunday? Would that be acceptable to you? I don’t like it plain and simple and I have seen good friends of mine throw away their lives, addicted and impoverished because of it. Should we as citizens be protected by the first amendment or not?

  No one was ever clamouring for gansta-rap - the music business put it out, and slickly marketed it for maximum impact on young people. They created the market for it, and then raked in the huge profits…isn’t it high time they paid a bit back?

  Prove any of what you just said here. You claim to have no time for conspiracy theories, but you just invented one out of thin air yourself. When did “gangster” rap first come out Mark? What marketing do you know of specifically that would help prove your point? Can you point to anything at all or is this just another Noonan I know what I know and I don’t have to prove anything moments. Just tell me if that is the case and don’t waste my time posting something that answers none of these questions.

• 9. FoolYouTwice  |  April 10th, 2008 at 9:05 am

  An Interesting Way to Attack Social Disintegration

  This isn’t interesting at all, or original. It has been tried in the past and has failed at stopping any sort of music from being made. All it normally does is draw attention to the artists being sued and make them millions in new sales. More people end up being exposed to the music than would have been in the first place.

• 10. Rana Quijotesca  |  April 10th, 2008 at 9:57 am

  So you are considering suing artists because people were dumb enough to act violently? Lawsuits are no substitute for good parenting, and good parents either a.)keep their kids from listening to this garbage (though I do listen to some violent rock stuff myself) or b.)instill good judgment in their kids so that the kids know that wanting to “be a gangsta” is pretty much retarded… I was subject to the same pop culture when I was a kid, and I didn’t feel the need to be a gangsta mostly because I had great parents who instilled a good decent judgment in me (I do like to give myself some credit). Music, movies, tv, and video games aren’t valid excuses for bad parenting.

• 11. Sunny  |  April 10th, 2008 at 9:58 am

  Well, first Mark had to get in his slam to the lawyers. Everybody hates attorneys until they need one. I submit that had you or one of your loved ones been attacked and injured as the result of the urging of a hip hop group, you would quickly find an attorney to represent the one injured. This is a physical injury, not a mental injury. Second, there is a big difference between lyrics that encourage physical injury to another and lyrics that promote injury to yourself. Those who indulge in “drugs, sex and rock and roll” chose to damage their own bodies, not another. There is such a thing as personal responsibility and if one makes the choice to indulge in drugs and sex they need to accept the responsibility of their actions. However, if the chose to physically injure another, there should be some legal liability for such behavior. We do have freedom of speach, however even speach is restricted when it can cause injury to others.

• 12. Some Assembly Required  |  April 10th, 2008 at 10:49 am

  There will always be some people looking to make a quick buck or blame flaws in society of the human condition because they cannot take responsibility for themselves or there children.

  The most appalling case of this has to be The West Memphis Three. Only this was more of an entire ‘Baptist’ community against three kids who were different listened to rock music.

  “Pink Floyd lyrics from the suspect’s notebooks, Stephen King novels,[28] and Echols’ interest in heavy metal music and Wicca were also presented in court as evidence against the teenagers.”

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Memphis_3

  Then there is also the issue of the FBI case files on the song ‘Louie Louie’… American tax dollars hard at work.

  http://www.thesmokinggun.com/louie/louie.html

  I must have been sleep walking when I said I agreed with basically everything you are saying in the post above. 4am flights are murder on the system. Are you really blaming pop culture on your friend’s drug abuse and death? I don’t like how pop culture has changed to the point where stupidity is cool. Blaming it for contributing to someone’s death is ridiculous. I mean this is the best possible way, but these friends of yours must not have the strongest characters.

  Then there is the gem about taxing pop culture because people use drugs have sex and commit crimes. You realize that most of what popular artists who actually write their songs, write from personal experiences. If not their own then someone they know or something they have seen. Then you turn around and support Bush’s tax cuts. Please man.

  I say take the record companies out of the distribution business. Leave it to the Radio stations and music networks to decide what to play. Eliminate the rules put forth during the payola scandal. Allow DJ’s to play what they want and if they take bribes to play songs throw them in jail.

  People being accused of a crime and some of the evidence provided are the lyrics of the music they listen to. Tax payer dollars were used to investigate a Richard Berry song by the FBI. These are not problems, no, it’s the industry that’s the problem because they are pushing sex and drugs and violence and Satan.

• 13. indava  |  April 10th, 2008 at 11:18 am

  “Should not a record company, for instance, which puts out music glorifying “sex, drugs and rock ‘n roll” pay a price when some of their customers take them at their word and ruin themselves via a course of “sex, drugs and rock ‘n roll”?”

  Absolutely not!! If some idiot wants to emulate 50 Cent or Hendrix and they end up dying somehow it’s the fault of the artist or record industry? What is wrong with you?

• 14. Some Assembly Required  |  April 10th, 2008 at 11:36 am

  indava

  “Should not a insurance company, for instance, which denies coverage because of pre-existing conditions pay a price when some of their customers take them at their word and ruin themselves via a course of illness because they thought they’d be covered for treatment?.”

  I would agree if it read like that. But sadly it doesn’t and is just another example of Marks double standard.

• 15. Robert  |  April 10th, 2008 at 12:33 pm

  “Counting quicky among my friends and family over the past 30 years, I come up with seven who destroyed their lives at the urging of popular culture, and one of them is actually dead.” - Mark Noonan

  Yes, Mark this is quite sad. But how many of these people were Liberals? I bet not all of them. I bet some of them would have ended up being quite Conservative. There are many who fit the Conservative stereotype in college - frat boy types - who partied all the time and slept with anything that moved. This does not mean that all frats engaged in this, or that all frat boys were bad, but there are people in EVERY walk of life, INCLUDING Conservatives, that make poor choices.

  I am sorry about your friends, but I hope that you do not always insinuate that this problem is because of Liberals. There are many Conservatives who push dangerous lifestyles too. Look at those “Conservative” frat boys. I bet they did much with their lives.

  I am sorry, Mark. But Liberals did not kill or hurt your friends. Maybe if they had let someone get through to them, listen to them, help them, they might have had a better chance. And, Mark, many that have destroyed their lives can STILL be helped. Rather than blaming the problem on Liberals, maybe YOU should be the one to help them, mark. Maybe you can actually do some good.

  ANYONE, even a Liberal, might be a wonderful conselor, teacher, friend to these people. Maybe you should try to find ANY decent human being to help them.

  Please do not always lay blame at the feet of Liberals and the left.

• 16. bubba  |  April 10th, 2008 at 2:27 pm

  These rap artists are writing about their life experiences. If you want them to have a more positive message, then maybe something should be done to change the life experience of poor black children in urban areas.

  Further, to say there was no market for this music and that it was forced upon young people is ridiculous. I’m a huge fan of hip hop, both hardcore gangster rap, and the more poetic musings of the commons or talib kwelis. Don’t condemn an artforom because you don’t recognize its worth or understand what it actually represents: the plight of the poor black urban person.

• 17. Diane Tomlinson  |  April 10th, 2008 at 2:33 pm

  I’ve often wished I could ask some of our pop culture icons - especially those in music - if they feel any shame or remorse that their glorification of sex, drugs and violence has led countless young people into a self-destructive lifestyle, un-supported by the vast monetary resources of rock stars and music moguls, who can pay for rehab and for others to clean up their messes? Now it occurs to me that we could, in effect, place a tax on popular culture - make it help pay for the problems it helps create.

  Gene Simmons answered this question years ago in an interview with Charlie Rose when asked the same question on CBS in 1985 I think it was . . .

  Simmons: “No.”

  Rose: “Just no. No explanation Gene?”

  Simmons: “No, because everyone has Free Will.”
  At that point Simmons gave Rose a look that to me said “Move along or I will have to explain to people that what I do is not an excuse for their own stupidity and no one in your audience here on CBS or the advertisers want to hear me say that.”

  It was the second best interview Simmons ever gave. The best of course is the legendary Terri Gross Fresh Air interview.

• 18. SteaM  |  April 10th, 2008 at 3:49 pm

  My favorite music is death metal. A large amount of the lyrical content has traditionally been fairly gross and violent and at times anti-christian.

  But i just see it as an artform. So sue me… er tax me.

• 19. Chris  |  April 10th, 2008 at 4:01 pm

  The suggestion you make that the creator of some product (music, film, book, whatever) should bear some responsibility for the actions of those who consume the product is entirely counter to the “personal accountability” mantra to which Republicans are so fervently attached when topics such as the “welfare state” come up. Pure and simple, what you suggest is hypocrisy.

• 20. DBM  |  April 10th, 2008 at 4:22 pm

  Same old stuff over and over again.

  Remember Tipper Gore and the “Mothers of Prevention”?

  Crossfire with Frank Zappa from 1986. First part of the show is bickering worthy of this blog, but they settle down at the end into some interesting debate.
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9856_xv8gc

• 21. David B. Schmidt  |  April 10th, 2008 at 4:47 pm

  Kind of off topic but not really. Then how does this general attitude square with the billions soaked in by several states with the tobacco law suits?

  And don’t pipe in with the additional cost of treatment of cancer patients because no one here knows how much is spent because of the ‘gangsta’ movement as a comparison.

  However, there are several studies that show smoking is less dangerous and less costly than being over-weight.

  Wonder what the costs are if you are an obese, smoking gangsta?

• 22. SteaM  |  April 10th, 2008 at 6:00 pm

  David,

  Republicans preach personal responsibilty before government intervention, welfare, social programs, and “entitlement” programs. Yet I tend to remember the 18 years of my life growing up in a Southern Baptist Church as being one where I grew to be very overwieght and, upon leaving the church at 18 years old, began to smoke a pack a year for 7 years. I tend to remember them teaching us to not curse, or dance, or have sex, or drink, or smoke. But I sure do remember those church dinners, potlucks, and banquets. All we did was eat tons of food. I tend to remember many of the members as being very unhealthy and overweight.

  Since then I have quit smoking and lost 70 pounds. I am an athiest progressive Democrat.

  I’m in favor of personal responsibility. I just wish people would actually practice what they preach. What sucks is that America is still the most overweight country in the world.

• 23. SteaM  |  April 10th, 2008 at 6:01 pm

  Oh, sorry, but to put that into context I should mention that most if not all of my church members were republicans.

• 24. FmrMarine  |  April 10th, 2008 at 7:29 pm

  steambath;

  >>>Yet I tend to remember the 18 years of my life growing up in a Southern Baptist Church as being one where I grew to be very overwieght and, upon leaving the church at 18 years old, began to smoke a pack a day for 7 years. I tend to remember them teaching us to not curse, or dance, or have sex, or drink,<<<

  So either you did not listen to them,
  OR
  you were stupid.

  If you had listened you would not have done all you did.
  So you paid NO attention to their teachings, but it was the FAT ….republican Baptists that “made you do it”.
  What about your homosexual experiences you admitted to on this site?
  Was that the terrible Christians who ate to much at potluck dinners that forced that upon you also?

• 25. FmrMarine  |  April 10th, 2008 at 7:42 pm

  bubba

  >>>then maybe something should be done to change the life experience of poor black children in urban areas.<<<

  I agree,
  how about ending 78% blacks born out of wedlock,?How about ending black on black murder, rape,robbery?
  How about blacks getting off PUBLIC assistance?
  How about blacks loosing the gangster mentality?
  How about blacks working for a living?
  How about black “leaders” leading in stead of rabble rousing?
  How about listening to the likes of Bill Cosby and Larry Elders, Condoleesa Rice, Colin Powell, Clarence Thomas etc
  in stead of the race baiters
  like sharpton, jackson, farrakhan.

  This kind of reform begins at HOME IE da hood, not by taxpayers dollars stolen from people who have CHOSEN to succeed.

• 26. Eric T  |  April 10th, 2008 at 11:13 pm

  The author writes-

  “Now it occurs to me that we could, in effect, place a tax on popular culture - make it help pay for the problems it helps create.”

  This is a great idea, Think of the millions and millions the democrats could tax movie stars and music artists. When Britney, Paris, or these other Hollywood millionares get busted with some coke or caught drunk driving.
  Pro athletes make some big cash too. I’d actually be proud to see democrats levy taxes on these over paid movie stars, artists, atheletes.

  When Your birthday comes around, the state wants you to give THEM a present. from renewing licenses, fee, tags. They take huge amounts out of your check, property taxes, ect.. ect..

  Here is a link of democrats in action, takin money from companies, unfortunately for all of us in the lower class, these tax hikes will be passed on to the companies customers in the form of high prices.

  http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20602099&sid=alV7tTwoxm8E&refer=energy

• 27. JPL  |  April 10th, 2008 at 11:25 pm

  Whoa — and this may be the 3rd sign of the Apocalypse — but I agree 100% with Rana Quijotesca and Diane Tomlinson on this one. You might as well sue Occam, Kant, Rousseau, Karl Marx, Derrida, Foucault, Roosevelt, John Lennon, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Phil Donahue, Dr. Phil, Oprah — or whoever else is to blame for the decline of Western civilization — for the decline of Western civilization.

  Bottom line — please don’t sue anyone for their ideas, no matter how misguided.

• 28. Jeremiah  |  April 10th, 2008 at 11:50 pm

  The beatles said they were “More popular than Jesus” when they landed in America…

  Well, turns out, for most of them, Ringo Starr, John Lenin, George Harrison, Paul McCartney…there lives haven’t gone too smoothly ever since…As well as all the others who have indulged themselve in the sinful wants and desires of their hearts.

• 29. gaijin  |  April 11th, 2008 at 1:44 am

  Jeremiah,

  LOL, must have been aweful becoming one of the most popular bands of all time and becoming billionaires. I feel so sorry for those guys.

  By the way, Lennon didn’t say that “when they landed in America.” He said it in London in 1966 two years after they made the leap across the pond.

  I am all for your tax and censor idea, Mark. As long as I get to be the censor that is.

  Peace, Gaijin

• 30. Mark Noonan  |  April 11th, 2008 at 2:17 am

  Fool

  Who pissed in your cheerios this morning?

• 31. Mark Noonan  |  April 11th, 2008 at 2:24 am

  Diane,

  I’m familiar - and his argument is bogus. Its the perfect “have cake, eat it, too” mentality - he wants there to be free will and everyone to take responsibility for their own actions, but he doesn’t want to take responsibility for his - which, amongst other things, has been the making of massive profits off the glorification of sex, drugs and rock ‘n roll. Simmons is an interesting character, but he needs to learn a basic truth - he doesn’t live in a vacuum, and he’s not the center of the universe.

  The people - whom he must care zero about - who consumed his product and took his persona at face value have paid their price for their choices. Some are dead. Some are in prison. Some are drug addicted. Some have only managed to barely get their lives back together after years of effort and hearache…the only person who hasn’t paid the price for his actions is Simmons…and Jagger, and Richards, and Roth…and scores of others throughout the entertainment industry who have made quite a lot of money off doing things in a very public way, and then trying to claim that what they did in public had no effect on the public for which they bear any responsibility.

  We are all in this together, Diane - we are, indeed, our brother’s keeper and it is our strict moral responsibility to help one another to a good life…or pay the price for not doing this or, worse, actually encouraging them to go wrong.

• 32. Mark Noonan  |  April 11th, 2008 at 2:32 am

  SAR,

  Why doesn’t it fade out? Because the entertainment industry is caught in a bind - to phase out gangsta rap would be to open them up to charges of racism…its the same reason that rap started to win awards and become entirely mainstreamed; the rap industry started shouting “racism”, and the entertainment industry crumbled under the accusation. Now they’ve got this talentless and destructive genre and they can’t get rid of it…unless, of course, we take the money out of it…the power to tax is, indeed, the power to destroy and nothing would please me more than to use liberal means to destroy varied aspects of liberalism.

• 33. Some Assembly Required  |  April 11th, 2008 at 7:05 am

  “its the same reason that rap started to win awards and become entirely mainstreamed; the rap industry started shouting “racism”, and the entertainment industry crumbled under the accusation.”

  I have to ask, do you know anything about the origins of rap music or are you just spit balling your own personal bias? Like all other forms of music, rap adapted on the music of previous generations. Most of it can be traced back to kids in the streets just free styling and battling one another. It just took off from there. Kind of like the Hardcore punk scene for rich white kids during Regan’s presidency. It has nothing to do with racism but was / is a generations way of expressing themselves. I believe NWA even came up with a song called ‘express yourself’. How about there song ‘F@$k the Police’. Ever wonder why then would write such a song or is it simply racism as well?

  “Now they’ve got this talentless and destructive genre and they can’t get rid of it…”

  Rappers, who come up with their own material, despite your preconceptions are very smart individuals. They read more then the average ‘white’ kid IMO. Not just books either, dictionary’s and thesaurus’s to get a bigger vocabulary. They are essentially poets of the ghetto. Sad part is all you see in it is ghetto.

  “to phase out gangsta rap would be to open them up to charges of racism…”

  Would they call Eminem racist? How about all those other ‘white boys’ that rap or grew up in poverty and use it as a means of escape or express themselves?

  As I have said before I do not agree with or like what ‘gangster culture’ is doing to western civilization, but at least I understand why it came about and trust me sir, it’s not racism when you point out your oppression. That being said, I also do not like what ‘Paris culture’ has done either. One promotes violence, the other promotes stupidity… Put them together and you have a very violent, very dumb culture. I guess this is partly why the US went into Iraq and then elected Bush for a second term…. I know, I know BDS.

  One last thing, when asked, the majority of rappers out there would more then likely say their inspiration comes from Tupac and are you sitting down for this… Led Zeppelin

• 34. Diane Tomlinson  |  April 11th, 2008 at 7:24 am

  25. FmrMarine | April 10th, 2008 at 7:42 pm

  • I agree,
  •
  How about ending white girls having abortions?
  • How about ending white on white murder, rape, robbery?
  How about whites getting off crystal meth and PUBLIC assistance?
  How about whitess loosing the trailer park/country club mentality?
  How about white working for a living by picking their own crops and roofing their own homes?
  How about white “leaders” leading in stead of rabble rousing?
  How about listening to the likes of Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, Dana Priest, Les Thurow, Kevin Phillips and James Carville etc
  in stead of the race baiters
  like Dobson, Perkins, Parsley and Hagee

• 35. Tractatus  |  April 11th, 2008 at 1:56 pm

  its the same reason that rap started to win awards and become entirely mainstreamed; the rap industry started shouting “racism”, and the entertainment industry crumbled under the accusation. Now they’ve got this talentless and destructive genre and they can’t get rid of it

  I know you have no qualms about spouting off from a position of sheer ignorance, Noonan, but man…this is about as ridiculous a statement as I’ve ever seen about the success of rap music. So the only reason rap music became accepted and has won awards is because people shouted “racism?” Really? Do you have even one tiny shred of proof for that statement? You don’t think that maybe, just maybe, it got accepted on its artistry? (Silly me, trying to make an argument about artistry to somebody with no sense of what that is, but at least it should generate a funny response.)

  By the way, is there non-gangsta rap? Is there positive rap? Do you know when gangsta rap started? Are you even aware that it was around before a record company ever put out a gangsta album?

  Christ, man. What’s next, screaming about how Elvis shaking his hips is destroying the moral fabric of society as we know it? You’re like a cartoon.

  Also, I reiterate my call for FmrMarine to be in charge of the GOP’s minority outreach. Man, that would be hilarious.

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