Open Thread: Wednesday Morning, or the Democrats’ Hangover
May 7th, 2008 at 09:13am Mark Noonan
It goes on and on, the primary fight…will Hillary ever quit?
Discuss this, and anything else you’d like - with apologies for the lack of new content: the family crisis are evening out, but still taking a lot of time out of the day.
Entry Filed under: Campaign 2008, Open Thread
46 Comments
1. SEW | May 7th, 2008 at 10:08 am
BO can’t win either! Will BO quit? That’s why the Dems had the ‘foresight’ to have superdelegates decide at the convention! And the ‘foresight’ to disenfranchise entire states of voters. Just following the rules. Great show.
2. Zach | May 7th, 2008 at 10:48 am
10. Some Assembly Required | May 6th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
“Party before Country, I’m impressed by your patriotism.”
Youre wrong, its not party before country. I voted for Hillary yesterday because I was voting for the lesser of the two liberals. Really I can’t believe that theres a politician whos more liberal than Hillary Clinton..Whoda thunk it?
Its not party before country. If there were two conservative/moderate democrats running, then it would’ve been a different story. Fact is, I aint about to let this country fall into the hands of people as far-left as Senator Obama, or for that matter a right-wing republican.
Thats why I tend to favor McCain. He’s a moderate, and he has a record of reaching across the political aisle to accomplish things.
I’ve heard Obama’s speechs from when he was here in Terre Haute, he wouldn’t be able to accomplish at least 50% of the ideas he put forth, or things he wants to change. Not that any politician can achieve 100% of what they say, my point is though that the man has too much of a “pie in the sky” mentality.
He’s a great speaker though, if that whats most important to you in a president then thats your call..
3. bagni | May 7th, 2008 at 10:59 am
markover:
the galactic gerrymanders suspect
hillary is just in it now for 2012
whoever gets elected will be a ‘one term wonder’
because the rock they’ll inherit from the current admin
will be so big to push uphill
it will roll back upon them
4. SEW | May 7th, 2008 at 11:07 am
“because the rock they’ll inherit from the current admin
will be so big to push uphill”
You’re correct about the imminent failure. W created Katrina and everything evil, now he is responsible for the pending collapse created by a Dem POTUS and Dem Congress. BDS.
5. Some Assembly Required | May 7th, 2008 at 11:17 am
Zach, your playing semantics. You will vote for McCain in the general so now your voting for who best to run against him and get beaten. Your argument would be valid if you planned on voting for Hilary in the general if not, it’s moot. Saying that, if you would vote for Hilary or at least honestly consider it then I apologize and my comment was not meant to be directed at you.
Obama is a good speaker yes. I still do not understand why you think what he is suggesting is so terrible. I mean Health care for everyone. Investigating oil companies instead of applying a temporary holiday for the summer, etc. You claim that a shift to a more liberal country will be the equilivalnt of the death of America. Honestly, I can’t be much worse than the last 7 years leading to the state of the country right now. IMO But your entitled to your opinions on how the country should be run.
6. Chuckg | May 7th, 2008 at 11:29 am
“I still do not understand why you think what he is suggesting is so terrible. I mean Health care for everyone.”
You think the government is in a deficit /now/, wait until it tries to pay for everyone’s health care bill.
Also imagine how much fun it will be when every doctor’s office has the customer service quality and work ethic of the DMV license renewal line.
7. Some Assembly Required | May 7th, 2008 at 11:36 am
Regardless who steps in money will have to be spent. The question is where best to spend the money. Personally, I think Healthcare and Infrastructure are smarter investments then say another country.
Also, as evidenced by Europe and Canada, healthcare is nothing like the DMV. I guess you’d rather pay hefty premiums only to be turned down from coverage when you need it because your illness was pre-existing. Must be nice to have that kind of money kicking around
8. OperationChaos | May 7th, 2008 at 11:47 am
Investigating oil companies instead
Are you brain-dead, or what? Oil company bigwigs spend more time on Capital Hill than most elected officials.
Health care for everyone? Gee, who pays for this, the oil companies? Brain-dead.
btw, you need to bone up on the usage of “your,” “yore,” and “you’re.” You are, after all, supposed to be the educated one…
9. Danish Artist | May 7th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
Investigate oil companies?
why, because they make a measly 8% profit on gasoline? oh, it is the evil word “profit” that has socialist leftists boxers in a wad. The government makes what 24 cents a gallon for what - doing nothing!
Obama needs a scapegoat to get attention away from his unknown and questionable past. The problems with this county are the EVIL corporations and capitalism - not liberal policies or “LIBERAL GUIDANCE” of the past.
There is a call for the same policies invoked in the seventies that gave us double digit unemployment, inflation, interest rates, etc. etc. Here it is again, the liberals carrying out their same socialist policies and expecting a different result.
“Health care for everyone.” As a “victim” of FEMA - the last thing anyone should want is a huge government operation in charge of our health and its care.
But leftists have always been trying to gain control of the huge slice of the economic pie that is the health care industry for their own power hungry benefit.
“I(t) can’t be much worse than the last 7 years leading to the state of the country right now.”
You just keep repeating that line to yourself if it will make you feel better about yourself. Seven years of liberal obstruction had nothing to do with “the state of the country”, since liberals in 2000 convinced themselves that Gore won.
These liberals live in their own little world where nothing they do is detrimental and has no negative side effects. We will have a repeat of the disasterous Carter administration if the libs get their way.
Liberal fantasy meets reality.
10. Canadian Observer | May 7th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
I’ve been told time and time again that y’all couldn’t care less what the rest of the world thinks of your politics and policies.
So with that in mind, I will just say that if the American people vote to keep a Republican in the White House, an individual who will continue along the same disastrous path as the current administration, it sends a crystal clear message that regardless of what opportunity is presented for a new direction, y’all blew it.
The United States of American is not the sole inhabitant of this planet. Your decisions do have repercussions on others.
11. Some Assembly Required | May 7th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
DA, Investigating Oil companies, as in Price Gouging.
Taxpayers will help pay for healthcare. You know, people helping people. Whereas taxpayers right now are paying to help bail out fortune 500 companies. But your fine with that?
OC, I am not an English major. You obviously are, so critique my spelling and grammar all you want, it doesn’t make my point any less valid.
People who cannot do will always tell you it cannot be done. Question is, when will you get tired of taking there word for it?
12. Dennis | May 7th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
From ABC news:
GOP Leaders Warn Of Election Disaster: Sniping And Selfishness Decried As Wary Republicans Fear November Nosedive
Shellshocked House Republicans got warnings from leaders past and present Tuesday: Your party’s message isn’t good enough to prevent disaster in November, and neither is the NRCC’s money…
Gingrich said Republicans cannot rely on the popularity of Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), the presumptive GOP presidential nominee, to carry them to victory in November. And he warned that attacks on Sens. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) and Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) and on the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, Obama’s former pastor, could backfire.
“The Republican brand has been so badly damaged that if Republicans try to run an anti-Obama, anti-Rev. Wright or, if Sen. Clinton wins, anti-Clinton campaign, they are simply going to fail,” Gingrich said. “This model has already been tested with disastrous results.”
….Boehner tried to put the best face on Gingrich’s message. His spokesman, Michael Steel, said that Boehner “certainly agrees and has said repeatedly that Republicans can only succeed this year by being agents of change and reform.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/07/politics/politico/main4076956.shtml
Oh, and Gingrich offered nine policy proposals designed to achieve Republican-style “change and reform,” including repealing federal gas taxes, reforming the Census Bureau and declaring English the official language of the United States. Declaring English the official language? Whoa, now that’s some really bold change and reform there…
13. Chuckg | May 7th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
“Taxpayers will help pay for healthcare.”
Wonderful. We’ll be the healthiest bankrupt people in the world. Except since national health care systems are famous world-round for inefficiency, we won’t even be that healthy.
14. Dennis | May 7th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Sorry, that was from CBS, not ABC…
15. Some Assembly Required | May 7th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
Chuck, as it stands right now were already headed towards bankruptcy, so why not be healthy? US hospitals have waiting times just like every other country.
What would you have tax payer dollars go towards instead? Not a trick question, I’m genuinely curious.
16. Chuckg | May 7th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Because we wouldn’t actually be any healthier? If the experiences of other countries are any indicator, nationalizing healthcare is a great way to pay a lot more to receive a lot less.
So, we’d have to massively raise taxes, entirely kill any hope of economic growth, vastly expand the size of the government bureaucracy, and in return we’d get — lousier service and longer waiting times at the doctor’s office.
Sorry, doesn’t appeal.
17. Chuckg | May 7th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
As for what I’d rather have taxpayer dollars go towards? I don’t want any government spending increases /at all/.
18. Eric T | May 7th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
The democrats are turning this race into racism . It is becoming a struggle between the Black Power, the NAACP, Rev. Wright, Farakkan, Jesse and Al. 90% of black voters. And the quickly evaporating White Power, the Ed Rendell’s, the KKKlintons, all the old power. This is a dream come true for racists’. Black racists get to play King of the Hill with the White racists. The funny part will be listening to the democrats try to be as politically correct as possible about this race war going on in their party.
I think the Clintons could win Kentucky + West Virginia.
Their is a real solution to end all this racism, It is simply, ban Affirmitive action, quota hiring, all this preferential treatment based on folks ethinc groups, And get rid of all these outdated racist programs that keep racism alive.
19. InDaVa | May 7th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
“Because we wouldn’t actually be any healthier? If the experiences of other countries are any indicator, nationalizing healthcare is a great way to pay a lot more to receive a lot less.
So, we’d have to massively raise taxes, entirely kill any hope of economic growth, vastly expand the size of the government bureaucracy, and in return we’d get — lousier service and longer waiting times at the doctor’s office.
Sorry, doesn’t appeal.”
The healthcare plan that Obama and Clinton are proposing is nothing like those in other countries(Canada,GB, etc.). If you actually did some research you’d know that.
20. Danish Artist | May 7th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
SAR, we already pay taxes for health care. You know, the state run public hospitals and several other state and federal programs. Oh, that’s right, why go there and wait hours to be seen when you can go to a private hospital’s emergency room and still be seen for free.
Price gouging? Why is it that liberals always accuse oil companies of price gouging when the price of oil increases?
Well, when you are appealing to the ignorant masses using that as a distraction from other important issues or your highly questionable past. - I seemed to have answered my own question. It’s no wonder they don’t teach supply and demand in government schools.
Uh, did you know that many states, counties and/or cities set the minimum price stations must charge for gasoline? This is to save the mom & pop stores from the big conglomerates such as Wal-mart that could attract people to their stores with cheap gas. If these governments set the minimum price how could the oil companies be charged with gouging?
Are you referring to the areas that have $4.00 and higher while others have $3.55 or higher? Could it be that that area has a mandate for one of the special boutique blends of fuel as order by state/local government?
More evidence of “liberal guidance” that is the cause of higher medical costs, higher oil and energy costs that are detrimental to businesses and citizens.
21. Some Assembly Required | May 7th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Canada’s healthcare has it’s problems thats granted, but taxes are not really that outrageous considering. You can also get private insurance to cover prescreption drug costs. MCP (government) covers everyone for hospital vists and such. I’m currently working in Canada now. I lose about 20% of my check in taxes. However taxes have gone down here in the past year alone. There are days when I wish it was less then that but when I get sick I’m covered. Furthermore that coverage extends back to the US when I go visiting family members.
Fair enough, I’m not a fan of big governments either, prime example of how ineffective they can be I see on almost a daily basis in Air Canada. When it comes to healthcare I think it’s a necessity. Healthcare is a zero sum game unless you deny people coverage. Which is the problem with the system in the US. At the end of the day, I’d much rather that 20% in taxes compared to paying thousands of dollars in dentist bills, broken bones or mortgaging a home if it’s something even more serious.
22. SEW | May 7th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
Earth Quakes in Japan. 8 years of George W and Karl Rove. Katrina wasn’t enough for them! Certainly CO2 levels and AGW are involved here as well, but W and Karl are mainly responsible!
And CO, dare you compare what Canada has done for the world compared to the USA? Is there anything at all? Other than cower under the skirt of the USA and pray we are there when you and other world parasites need us?
23. Some Assembly Required | May 7th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
Hey SEW, a Canadian invented Insulin and that zipper in your pants. By far the best thing they’ve contributed is Beer. It really puts American beer to shame. I think it’s the water, but who knows really.
I’d also like to point out that the US tried to invade Canada in 17 somethin but failed miserably. Go figure.
24. Canadian Observer | May 7th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
I’d also like to point out that the US tried to invade Canada in 17 somethin but failed miserably.
23. Some Assembly Required | May 7th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
Actually, SAR, the American attempt to invade Canada took place in l812.
“Campaigns of 1812-13
U.S. forces were not ready for war, and American hopes of conquering Canada collapsed in the campaigns of 1812 and 1813. The initial plan called for a three-pronged offensive: from Lake Champlain to Montreal; across the Niagara frontier; and into Upper Canada from Detroit. The attacks were uncoordinated, however, and all failed. In the West, Gen. William HULL surrendered Detroit to the British in August 1812; on the Niagara front, American troops lost the Battle of Queenston Heights in October; and along Lake Champlain the American forces withdrew in late November without seriously engaging the enemy.”
Another defeat Americans do not want to remember.
25. Some Assembly Required | May 7th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
My Mistake, I’m horrible with dates. The girlfriend often gives me $hit for it.
26. Chuckg | May 7th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
“The healthcare plan that Obama and Clinton are proposing is nothing like those in other countries (Canada,GB, etc.).”
Saying that will not make it magically come true. Especially given that /all/ national health care plans I am aware of in the history of the 20th century have proven less efficient than the free market. Every single one. Very few of which were identical to each other.
You’re telling me that the current plan under discussion is really that much different from all of them simultaneously? That its genuinely something new, never before seen under the sun? Would you care to try explaining /how/?
27. SEW | May 7th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
“the American forces withdrew in late November without seriously engaging the enemy.”
“Another defeat Americans do not want to remember.”
Imagine when Canada would actually defend itself! Some American defeat there CO. And quite a victory for Canada.
28. Eric T | May 7th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Dennis-
Number 12, you make some good points, the left could easily win, if the GOP is relying on folly from the left, more than excellent strategy and a good GOP platform.
The left is probably not in as bad of shape as some make it sound.
29. Eric T | May 7th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
I predict after the smoke clears ol Bill will wrestle the nomination away from Obama but he will be VP
30. Zach | May 7th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
SAR,
I dont think I’m playing semantics at all. I’m simply trying to help eliminate the largest liberal. period. I dont have a problem with the liberal ideology, (to each his own) but I dont want to see a president as liberal as Obama as my president. (I’d have no problem voting for a moderate democrat, but where are they?) Honestly, the Wright fiasco has cost him some respect with me. When he was being slammed for being relatively inexperienced, he said *paraphrasing* “It’s all about judgement”….Your wanna explain to me what sort of judgement it takes to sit in that church and listen to that? I can, its called not very good judgement..That bothers me. All in all I do respect Obama’s liberal beliefs. And if he makes it to the White House, you won’t hear me lambasting him over every small detail. I believe he’s a good man and I intend to give him a fair shake.
You’re right though, unless something drastic happens with McCain, he’s got my vote come Nov. I like him because he’s moderate. Considered liberal with some polices, and conservative in others.
31. djp | May 7th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
Especially given that /all/ national health care plans I am aware of in the history of the 20th century have proven less efficient than the free market.
Nonsense. Name one and why you think it is “less efficient.” Use numbers, not anectdotes, make an argument, try to convince someone.
In general I know that most of the western world spends less per capita on healthcare than the united states, has a greater % of the population covered, and provides for longer average life expectancies. Conclusive? No. Suggestive? surely.
What data are you relying on in claiming that there has never been a national healthcare system more effective than the one currently existing in the US
32. Chuckg | May 7th, 2008 at 5:04 pm
“Nonsense. Name one and why you think it is “less efficient.”’
Great Britain. Waiting times of up to months for x-rays or surgical procedures, regardless of patient need.
Yes, yes, I know, you’re going to ‘That’s juat anecdotes!’
So, here are some numbers. Enjoy!
33. Chuckg | May 7th, 2008 at 5:10 pm
It’s the rationing that gets me the worst. The single primary reason that people support nationalized health care is that it supposedly gives greater access to health care for the people.
So, if the only way the system can remain even halfway viable is to ration the care, denying hundreds of thousands of people access to medical treatment for months and months, /then what the hell is the point/? (Note: These #’s are /not/ an exaggeration, click that link above.)
If I want to /not/ see a doctor for months and months, I can do that /now/, and not have to pay higher taxes for the privilege.
34. Magnum Serpentine | May 7th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
Obstructionist Republicans running wild in the House. The Citizens are seeing just how childish the republicans are in the House of Representatives.
Its so sickening that even John McCain is distancing himself from the Republican Circus over in the House.
35. Some Assembly Required | May 7th, 2008 at 5:47 pm
Zach,
I personally do not see the Wright comments as all that racist and damning. First when I heard the clips sure, I was outraged. I hold no bones over that. Though I slowly started to look into why he may have said such things. The more I did the more I realized that he had pretty good reason to say most of it given the history of the US since say the 30’s. I can understand how people can and would get offended by it though. The manor in which he gave his sermon certainly needs something to be desired to say the least. I also do not see a difference between Wright and Hagee. Nor do I hold any stalk in what preacher any candidate seeks out or has a relationship with.
That being said about Obama, I will agree with you about McCain. Though I am a strong supporter of Obama, a McCain presidency will be much better than what has happened in the past 7 years. McCain does seem fairly moderate in his stances however I’m having a hard time trusting him. He has been caught changing his position or ‘flip flopping’ on several issues now. This is huge for me considering the complete lack of trust and faith in the Bush administration right now. More than anything what we need as a president is Honesty. Someone who can make the American people trust the whitehouse again. This is primarily why I will not vote for McCain.
36. neocon | May 7th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
The US currently does have a nationalized health care system, though it is administered at the state level. Here in AZ there is a program called ACCESS, designed specifically for low income families. State paid health care! I know other states have their own programs. Also, walk into any emergency room and you will receive treatment regardless of your ability to pay.
Our current healthcare system offers the best care available, because our doctors are the best. I would rather see doctors make bank than the lawyers.
Let’s socialize our legal system. I’d like to see the trial lawyer driven Democrats explore that one.
37. jerry | May 7th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
Could Joe Lieberman please tell John McCain that Czechoslovakia hasn’t existed in 15 years, so John can’t put a missile shiled system in a place that does not exist. Also the League of Nations didn’t work out for his classmate in high school, Woodrow Wilson.
38. Danish Artist | May 7th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
Hey neo,
why aren’t the liberals bitching about the legal system. Legal representation is a guaranteed right by the Constitution - remember Miranda vs .
Since it is a Constitutional right, everyone should have access to it. Legal representation costs are more out of control that ever and the excessive profits made by trial lawyers in most cases for so little work is unbelievable.
AND IT’S NOT COVERED BY INSURANCE!!!
The thing is Democrats already have control of the legal system, but they do not have control of the medical and healthcare systems. That is something they do not like.
39. neocon | May 7th, 2008 at 7:44 pm
Danish…
Bingo!!!
40. jerry | May 7th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
Danish-
You are confusing criminal law with civil law. Miranda is criminal law, tort lawyers getting money from liable companies is civil law.
41. SEW | May 7th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
Bingo!
42. neocon | May 7th, 2008 at 8:00 pm
Jerry,
Where do you suppose that money tort lawyers get from liable companies comes from?
And do you recognize the need for tort reform?
43. InDaVa | May 7th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
Ahhh, the old trial lawyer bit…..
44. Danish Artist | May 8th, 2008 at 7:01 am
Jerry, don’t you know exaggeration when you see it?
45. Danish Artist | May 8th, 2008 at 9:47 am
Uh, jerry, did Johnny Cochran charge a reasonable fee to O.J.?
Or, did JC exploit OJ’s predicament for a huge gain? OJ had a right to legal defense, why should attorneys make excessive profits over other’s misfortune?
It’s so unfair and greedy.
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