73 Comments Add your own

• 1. Hillary: The Closet Chris&hellip  |  May 12th, 2008 at 11:18 am

  […] pramod83 wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerptClinton, an evangelically inclined Methodist, is by far the most religiously rooted and theologically astute of the three candidates, a Christian intellectual schooled in the cold war religion of Reinhold Niebuhr’s post-leftist years. … […]

• 2. Jeremiah Wright » H&hellip  |  May 12th, 2008 at 1:23 pm

  […] Mark Noonan wrote an interesting post today on Hillary: The Closet Christian Extremist?Here’s a quick excerptLost in the hysteria over Reverend Jeremiah Wright’s remarks is the fact that the current race offers a rare snapshot of the three great strands of American political religion. It’s ironic that Wright occupies center stage, since, … […]

• 3. OhioOrrin  |  May 12th, 2008 at 3:05 pm

  I’ve commented repeatedly that evangelicals are NOT traditional conservatives.

  rather they are big govt, judical interventionists enabling: the fed govt & judicary to trample the 4th & 10th admendments, a complete failure to balance a budget, a continual enlargement of the fed bureaucracy, and no evident thought as to their pastors speaking politically despite their churchs’ tax exempt status.

  no surprise then the threats to realign themselves.

  course, as a centrist, I’d rather the left n right jettison their extremes & let the majority center practically solve probs LIKE CONGRESS USED TO!

• 4. Dennis  |  May 12th, 2008 at 3:38 pm

  There is a crisis of definitions in the evangelical realm. I often ask evangelicals for their definition of Christianity, and almost always receive an evasion or non-answer. For me the definition of Christianity couldn’t be simpler: it is accepting the atonement and following the example and teachings of Jesus Christ, as recorded in the Gospels.

  I disagree that Clinton is “the most religiously rooted and theologically astute of the three candidates” - not by a little, much less by far. Without resorting to academic terms or sophistry, by the plain criteria of the Gospels Senator Obama is far more easily identifiable as a Christian than either of the other two candidates. By his past life of public service, particularly for the poor and underprivileged; by striving to run a campaign free of meanness or character attacks and by his proposed policies of meeting the needs of “the least of these” and seeking peaceful solutions to political problems, Obama is a neat illustration of a Christian life in action to even the unchurched. Many of the churched, I would note, have abandoned their Gospel moorings in favor of faux “moral issues” that leave the actual teachings advanced by Jesus in the Gospels forgotten, if not trampled underfoot.

  I am not sure how easily the office of the presidency can accommodate true Christian values, but it is quite clear that neither Clinton nor McCain are concerned with such a standard. Annihilating our enemies is not the same thing as loving them or doing good to those who hate us. Electing strict constructionist judges to the Supreme Court is a far cry from loving God with all our hearts and loving our neighbors as ourselves.

  As to domestic policy Sentor Clinton does evidence some authentic Christian values, but she abandons them with a vengeance in her foreign policy. Of particular note is that McCain and Clinton both seem to compete for the most bellicose rhetoric regarding our enemies, whereas Obama actually suggests engaging them in dialogue and constructive diplomacy - at least noticeably closer to the Gospel template.

  Of course people who love power always have seen Christ’s way as weakness, but the truth is few have ever applied it - particularly in matters of foreign policy. It would be edifying to see this “Christian nation” put its money where its mouth is, for once.

  In all talk about religion in a political venue such as this, one must first define terms. Once you have a true definition of Christianity you begin to see issues like gay marriage, abortion and the threat of Islam as decoys - mere mannequins wearing the outward clothing of religion. Political ploys that look outward in judgment against others do not, and can never, stack up biblically against the more weighty matters of being born again, of adopting and living by the spiritual values taught and modeled by Christ.

  Jesus had vastly more to say about the perils of material wealth and the necessity of loving others, than about fighting wars, punishing evildoers or passing religious laws. I don’t see the immensely wealthy Clinton or McCain as being particularly concerned with any core Christian principles.

• 5. MrThankful  |  May 12th, 2008 at 4:38 pm

  Jay-ses H. Doubletoothpicks Dennis,

  You hit that one out of the park.

  Thanks.

• 6. Jeremiah  |  May 12th, 2008 at 5:10 pm

  From my personal perspective - Hillary Rodham Clintion, under perusal of the facts, will show two Hillary Clintons, which can be said all to often these days among more than many Americans and around the globe.

  As in Jesus’ words - ‘These are people who honor with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.’

  And that’s exactly what we find in Hillary Clinton - Yes, she goes to Church once a Sunday and let’s the words go in one ear and completely out the other without any thought or comtemplation on the matter of which she has contrived to do sinful deeds in the past. And so…Hillary stands tall going in the Church, but crawls on her belly in her policy-making.

  The word we’re looking for here? Hypocrite!

  Hillary can’t claim to be a “Christian” and then stand up for the destruction of unborn babies. In which she doesn’t care what it is - In all nine-months of pregnancy.

  Hillary can’t claim to be a “Christian” and then turn around and want to give Sodomites special privilege to hijack our institutions to fit their sick and depraved worldview.

  Hillary and Barack Obama are two of a kind, both being wolves in lambs skin. No difference in them and the guy in prison who committed murder, only H&B being more dangerous for their policies which sanction laws that lead to the behavior which the prisoner has committed.

  Evangelcial doctrine has mixed theologies - One of them being, “Once saved, always saved,” which is a direct contradiction of Scripture. What “Once saved, always saved” says….is, Once you’re saved, you can go living your life the way you please. In other words…You can “do no wrong.” No so!!!

  That is the opinions of faith based organizations, but in others, which go strictly by a Scriptural basis - the non-denominational sects, of which I am, and which I am a firm believer…So what does the Scripture say about Salvation? Hebrews 10:26-27…

  ‘If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.’

  So what are we, then, if we proclaim Salvation yet believe we can go on sinning? Just as the Scripture says…The enemy of God.

  Matter of fact…Matthew 15:19 says….’For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man ‘unclean’; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him ‘unclean.’

  So, we can put forth our opinions, but unless they originate from a sound knowledge of the Scriptures just as they are, we’re not teaching Scripture. We are making contradictions to fit our our ideology. And that’s not what Jesus peached nor intended. He intstructed His followers to proclaim it, and that’s exactly what we have in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts and Romans right on down to Revelation. Jesus is the source of our government, as He wrote upon the heart of Paul as a continuation of societies to come. And this is what we find in the history of our country where the Founders set the course for the Greatest Nation on earth to be Founded. They feared, proclaimed, ruled, and made their laws on the Biblical standing. Especially Romans.

  Again…we can have our opinions, but unless they based in truth…then they are as leafs upon the wind to be blown away.

  When the people of a Nation part from the truth, which our Founders fought and died to protect…

  Then Jesus says ….that ‘They worship Me in vain; their teaching are but the teachings of men.’
  And is what the people will be doing in the event that they support Hillary or Barack as our 44th President.

  As Mark as alluded too….they are very dangerous…don’t let those words of hope fool you.

• 7. Mark Noonan  |  May 12th, 2008 at 5:50 pm

  Dennis,

  Your initial question is what is wrong - you can’t ask someone for “their” definition of Christianity. There is Christianity, and a person adheres to it, or they don’t. The definition is:

  I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth;
  and in Jesus Christ, His only Son Our Lord,
  Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.

  He descended into Hell; the third day He rose again from the dead;

  He ascended into Heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

  I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting.

  Amen.

  You believe that, then you’re Christian. How to apply that to daily life, that is another matter and open to interpretation - for you to think that Obama’s kneeling before the shrine of “negotiations” is more Christian than stoutly confronting evil doers is a matter of opinion, and rather foolhardy opinion on your part. Our Lord did, indeed, command us to love our enemies and pray for them - but he didn’t advise us to surrender to them, or pretend that their evil doing is justified. Jesus never said to a sinner that his sins were ok because someone else had sinned - no, his command was to go forth, and sin no more.

  In confronting the problems of the world, the best solution is to apply Christian principles in all things - but Christianity isn’t a suicide pact, nor is love something soft and mushy - its hard as diamonds, actually, and requires great strength of character.

  Now, to get this back on track - the oddity is that for a couple decades the Christians of America have been condemned on the left as evil people bent on destroying the world…now Hillary is being called a Christian, apparantly on the belief that by so calling her, she is made permanently odius on the left. This speaks volumes about the real view of the left about Christianity - that the left’s recent attempts to co-opt Christian values is just a cynical dodge. We Christians and our morality are despised on the left and it is good to know precisely where we stand, and how much stock we can place in the professions of Christian morality by leftwing politicians, including Barack Obama.

• 8. neocon  |  May 12th, 2008 at 5:58 pm

  “Until the left gets a grip on reality,….” - Mark

  Their entire doctrine is premised on the creation of the reality needed to support it. It’s the cart before the horse thing. So the above mentioned summation will never be realized.

• 9. Mark Noonan  |  May 12th, 2008 at 6:12 pm

  neocon,

  Good point - so, just for fun, lets say “until the left allows us to paint them purple and parade them in clown outfits”….

• 10. bongoman  |  May 12th, 2008 at 6:29 pm

  Of course, we do have the example of fascism before us - a clearly leftwing ideology (founded by the Italian socialist leader Benito Mussolini) was somehow translated into a right-wing phenomena merely because the left didn’t want to confront the fact that Fascism was a merely nationalist form of garden variety socialism.

  WTF? Mussolini was fiercely anti-communist. His definition of fascism was that “fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power.” Sound familiar?

  He was strongly anti-liberal-democratic.

• 11. Dennis  |  May 12th, 2008 at 6:52 pm

  Mark, what you define as “Christianity” is not the thing itself but another simulacrum - an institutional creed. It is a formulation of words written by men, using religious language to advance the authority and prestige of a human institution.

  The Mormons believe in the angel Moroni as fully as you believe in your creed. A person may feel great loyalty or emotion regarding creeds and institutions, but such feelings have no bearing on historical or spiritual reality.

  If words have any meaning at all, Christianity can be reduced to a one-word definition: Christ. Period, full stop.

  To say your church or any other is necessary for the salvation of any human being who ever lived is to say Christ’s atonement was insufficient and the Gospel incomplete. I hardly think you would be that presumptuous.

• 12. Mark Noonan  |  May 12th, 2008 at 6:58 pm

  Dennis,

  Nonsense - Christ founded the Church while he lived on earth as a man.

• 13. FmrMarine  |  May 12th, 2008 at 6:59 pm

  >>>The Mormons believe in the angel Moroni as fully as you believe in your creed.<<<

  and so do the muslems with mohaMAD,
  both are cults.

• 14. Mark Noonan  |  May 12th, 2008 at 6:59 pm

  bongoman,

  And what is a series of nationalised industries but the marriage of State and corporation?

  You really need to start thinking about things - and especially start understanding that the basis of conservatism is to defend Judeo-Chrsitian civlization…not capitalism, not wealth…but a civilization.

• 15. Oceandeep  |  May 12th, 2008 at 7:08 pm

  “Of course, we do have the example of fascism before us - a clearly leftwing ideology (founded by the Italian socialist leader Benito Mussolini)”

  Why in the world would you perpetuate such garbage; on the internet no less where a quick Google search proves this statement is nothing but B.S and therefore lowers your credibility on other issues. During WWII fascism was nothing more than Nazism without the killing of Jews and Catholics. Mark, are you saying Hitler befriended a know “socialist/communist”, Mussolini while his army was being decimated by a known socialist/communist Stalin? Your thought process is bizarre simply bizarre.

  Mussolini defined fascism in his “The Doctrine of Fascism” as being a collectivistic ideology in opposition to socialism, classical liberalism, democracy and individualism.

• 16. Mark Noonan  |  May 12th, 2008 at 7:21 pm

  Ocean,

  Try to keep on the real subject - why Hillary is being painted as some sort of religious crackpot by your fellow lefties.

  The various “isms” of the late, unlamented 20th century were all of a piece - different strands of the same thread, but all at bottom no different…”the left” refers to the opposition to “the right”, which is based upon Judeo-Christian morality; in this, fascism is just as much in opposition to “the right” as socialism is, and for the same reasons. They just have slightly different ways of going about it.

• 17. Canadian Observer  |  May 12th, 2008 at 7:22 pm

  10. bongoman | May 12th, 2008 at 6:29 pm

  Logic seems to be a foreign concept in this part of the woods.

  If anyone wants to have an Alice in Wonderland experience, bongoman, this is the place to come.
  ————————————
  11. Dennis | May 12th, 2008 at 6:52 pm

  You will never get religious zealots, who claim to be Christian, but are not, admit to the truth and clarity of your remarks, Dennis.

• 18. Oceandeep  |  May 12th, 2008 at 8:33 pm

  16. Mark Noonan | May 12th, 2008 at 7:21 pm

  Ocean,
  Try to keep on the real subject -

  Then stop the practice of mixing truths and untruths in the same thread with the expressed intent of giving credibility to the untruths.

• 19. Cavalor Epthith, Esquire, D.S.V.J.  |  May 12th, 2008 at 9:04 pm

  11. Dennis | May 12th, 2008 at 6:52 pm

  Those whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad.

• 20. Greg-O  |  May 12th, 2008 at 10:31 pm

  Hitler and Stalin got along together quite well until they both wanted the same thing.

  http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/11/the_nazis_were_maxists.html

  It is quite a stretch to say Hillary Clinton is much of a Christian, let alone a “Christian Extremist.” Christ taught to give out of charity, not out of taking by taxation. And the quip about strict constructionist judges, Christ always referred back to the Law when confronting the Pharisees, which is rather a “strict constructionist” method in holding fast to the Constitution/Law. The Pharisees had taken to making up laws to use to their advantage, which had strayed far from the Law that they were given… sound familiar?

• 21. phnx  |  May 12th, 2008 at 11:58 pm

  “Mussolini was fiercely anti-communist. His definition of fascism was that “fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power.” Sound familiar?” bongoman

  You stop short in failing to mention that Mussolini’s view was that corporations would be subsurvient to the state and its objevtives. This is identical to communism. The main difference as property rights. Under communism such rights do not exist, the state owns everything. Fascism permits private property rights, so long as there is no opposition to the will and objective of the state.

  The recent ruling by the supreme court affirming the right of the city of New London to confiscate private property and tranfer it to another private party was a perfect example of present day fascism. The decision was accomplished by the leftists and so called moderates on the court.

• 22. bongoman  |  May 13th, 2008 at 1:10 am

  Except that is not alone enough to describe fascism which also includes militarism, nationalism and racism as its underpinnings.

• 23. Mark Noonan  |  May 13th, 2008 at 1:46 am

  bongo,

  Actually, Mussolini’s fascism had nothing to do with racism until he came under the thumb of Hitler after the start of WWII - and even then, Italian racism was half-hearted, at worst. Jews were high up in the Italian fascist movement from the start.

  And as for militarism - what do you consider the Jacobin’s conscription of France for war to be? Ever heard of “War Communism”? Ever taken a look at how the Bolsheviks dressed in the 20’s? Was Mao anti-militarist? What sort of clothes did Castro wear throughout his dictatorship? Militarism is entirely compatible with leftwing thinking…

  The real difference between Mussolini and, say, Lenin is that Mussolini was a nicer guy (this was not a difficult task given how incredibly nasty Lenin was), and Mussolini was concerned with raising Italy up, while Lenin at least gave lip service to internationalism…even while rebuilding the Czarist Empire post Russian Civil War.

• 24. Gaijin  |  May 13th, 2008 at 2:18 am

  Mark,

  “There is Christianity, and a person adheres to it, or they don’t. The definition is:…I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting.”

  So Mark, are you saying that only Catholics are Christians? Being that Protestants don’t believe in Catholic dogma, or the position of the Pope, are they all heretics?

  I would just like to know if Jerry and all the non-Catholics are not Christans and therefore going to burn in hell?

  Thanks, Gaijin.

• 25. Dennis  |  May 13th, 2008 at 4:47 am

  Gaijin, this is what Catholicism teaches:

  “It is not lawful to demand, to defend, or to grant unconditional freedom of thought, or speech, or writing, or religion, as if these were so many rights given by nature to man” (Pope Leo XIII, Libertas, 1903).

  “The true [Roman Catholic] Church can tolerate no strange churches besides herself” (The Catholic Encyclopedia).

  “The Roman Catholic Church must demand the right of freedom for herself alone” (Civilta Cattolica, April, 1948).

  “In themselves all forms of Protestantism are unjustified. They should not exist” (America, national Catholic weekly magazine published by Jesuits, January 4, 1941).

  “What is not in accord with truth [i.e. Roman Catholicism] has objectively no right of existence, propagation, or action” (Pope Pius XII, Ci Riesce, 1953).

  Pope Benedict XVI restated last July what he said were the “defects” of Christian faiths other than Roman Catholicism, his document repeating the teaching that the Roman Catholic Church alone is the mediator of salvation.

  I’m guessing Mark would accept these statements at face value. As to whether any of them are true, that is another matter.

• 26. reaffirm&hellip  |  May 13th, 2008 at 6:39 am

  […] Post Date Wednesday, May 28, 2008 Lost in the hysteria over Reverend Jeremiah Wright??s remarks ihttp://blogsforvictory.com/2008/05/12/hillary-the-closet-christian-extremist/Official preliminary results reaffirm victory of pro-Western bloc in Serbia China DailyBELGRADE — […]

• 27. FmrMarine  |  May 13th, 2008 at 4:39 pm

  gajun

  >>>So Mark, are you saying that only Catholics are Christians? Being that Protestants<<<

  Catholic …. means UNIVERSAL. dummy!

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