How Will the Left Deal With Victory in Iraq?
June 14th, 2008 at 02:45am Mark Noonan
It will become an ever more pressing issue for them as 2008 progresses - and Victor Davis Hanson writes a long article detailing many of the anti-Iraq/anti-Bush myths and their lack of credibility, and brings up this very valid point:
6. President Bush’s presidency was ruined in Iraq.
If we were to lose the war, then yes. But should we win, should a constitutional government stabilize, should al-Qaeda keep unraveling, and should the hiatus of terrorist attacks against Americans at home and abroad continue, then historians will rank Bush in Trumanesque terms: a similarly orphaned presidency that ended disliked — even as it crafted a strategy to defeat global Islamic terror by taking the fight to the heart of the Middle East, while establishing proof of America’s good intentions by fostering constitutional government that offered Iraqis an alternative other than the usual Middle East non-choice of theocracy or autocracy.
Bush was terribly damaged by a series of poor spokesmen, his own bellicose soundbites of 2002–3, a series of tell-all defections of former intimates and officials, and an inability to cut U.S. consumption of imported petroleum. But that said, years from now, historians will look at the record and the results, not the present rhetoric, and his legacy could well be — “He kept us safe.”
Indeed - but it might not be historians 50 years from now figuring this out, but the American people awakening to the realisation that our incomparable armed forces have won an amazing victory, and then crediting the man who lead the way, President George W. Bush. This could start to happen by mid-Summer, and therein lies the left’s big worry.
You see, the left owns defeat (as Limbaugh puts it), since 2004 they have been hammering home on the theme that the war is lost - not “will be lost” or “could be lost” but “is lost”; while it took some time for senior Democrats to hop on the defeatist bandwagon, we now have clear statements from a large number of senior Democrats, including Barack Obama, that the war was lost years ago…but that war allegedly lost years ago has actually been won, and the question which will be asked (especially by John McCain and the GOP) is how we can entrust our nation to people who were ready to throw in the towell at the first sign of difficulty? It does take a bit of courage to govern, and Democrats have shown themselves to either be contemptible fools, or rank cowards on the issue of the War on Terrorism.
Right now, we just get ever more shrill assertions that the war is lost - heck, for a while there our leftwing friends were even trying to convince us that Iraq’s smashing victory in Basra was a defeat! Eventually, however, the left - led by Barack Obama - will have to confront the fact that we’ve won and our troops are starting to come home crowned with glorious victory. It will be interesting to see them try and wriggle out of years of defeatist propaganda.
Entry Filed under: Campaign 2008, Democrats, Republicans, War on Terror
83 Comments Add your own
1. SEW | June 14th, 2008 at 4:52 am
Expect the nonsense responses, what is a victory? Define Victory!
Hey lefties, define Useful Idiot, again. Thanks.
2. bongoman | June 14th, 2008 at 5:25 am
But we ain’t got our 58 bases yet! After all we’ve done, we deserve our bases over there!
3. bongoman | June 14th, 2008 at 5:33 am
So SEW, what is victory to you?
What if Al-Maliki passes legislation as he is threatening to do, requiring that the US leave without their security agreement? No bases, no control over Iraqi airspace etc
Is that a victory to you? ‘Cause there are plenty in this Administration who would not see that as victory.
What about the under-estimated Sadr Movement? Do you really think they are a spent force?
Al-Maliki’s friendly ties with Iran? You ok with that?
4. neocon | June 14th, 2008 at 8:50 am
The links below are just more evidence of the impending victory in Iraq and the lefts desperate attempt to find the negatives and the defeat they have wanted for so long. Bongo, your above post is just sad.
http://www.reuters.com/article/middleeastCrisis/idUSBAT002263
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN1037250220080611
5. Cavalor Epthith, Esquire, D.S.V.J. | June 14th, 2008 at 9:00 am
4. neocon | June 14th, 2008 at 8:50 am
So you are saying neocon that an Iraq that sends America home without securing basing rights that is stable in its own security and has a close relationship with Iran is okay with you? To you this would be a US victory and would go far to enhance the safety and secuirty of the American people?
How again is this talking with Iran on Iraq’s future security not appeasement? Finally, if the soveriegn government of Iraq demanded US troops to begin leaving the country on 1 October 2008 and be fully withdrawn by 1 March 2010 what would be the response from the Bush administration, the Pentagon and the American people. Be careful that last one is not the trick question.
6. neocon | June 14th, 2008 at 9:08 am
So now I am to answer a question that has no foundation in reality? And this is your “gotcha” moment? Is this what it has come to Cav? Baseless scenarios that will somehow prove liberals right all along?
Absolutely pathetic.
I think Maliki talking with Iran is great. Maliki will be a great ambassador and will concretely demonstrate to the Iranian people that democracy can work in the ME.
And if Iraq asks for our troops to leave, which would mean they felt capable of securing their country, how great would that be?
You’re one the last diehard defeatist Cav. Maybe someday you’ll be the loser you always wanted to be.
7. extramedium | June 14th, 2008 at 9:36 am
Mark,
Do you think the government will formally declare victory at some point, and have some sort of national celebration? Or do you think it will merely be a battle of pundits and analysts, arguing over whether a victory has been achieved or not, for years to come? Since there will be no papers of surrender signed, and since there are no clear milestones set by the US government, people can pretty much declare victory as they see fit, no?
I guess I need to know what exactly the left will need to deal with before I can say what how they will deal with it. Is it just a portion of troops coming home and Rush Limbaugh declaring victory?
8. Vicodin-N-Cocoa | June 14th, 2008 at 9:38 am
Neo-con: Are you old enough to remember the Rubik’s Cube puzzles?
If not you’ve heard of them, yeah?
A lot of Russian emigres to the US during the glasnost/perestroika era used to buy them in bulk and sell them on makeshift cardboard tables in Midtown Manhattan and Wall Street.
They’d call out “‘ey Rubik Cube, 4 dollar!”
The sales were pretty brisk from the start and kept on going up. The Russians were doing well with this. About 5 months into the craze, a guy I knew named Evgeny who had started going to Rutgers and was taking a poli-sci course, noticed some frat-guy junior cold-call broker with an American flag pin in the lapel of his Robert Hall suit holding a copy of either Commentary or The New Republic come up and buy a game.
The next day, Evgeny set up his cardboard box, lined up the Rubik’s Cubes in the box and called out “‘ey Rubik Cube 4 dollar…Answer book 8 dollar.”
Evgeny got his master’s in engineering. He’s living in Montreal dating the madam of a huge private brothel, dates going for 1000 CAD/45mins.
Cavalor wasn’t even asking for the 8 dollar…he was going to help you and your monstrous candidate figure out an answer to Obama when he asks McCain the same question. But you went and insulted him.
Cavalor, I’m afraid, is not giving away or selling any more answer books.
I’d say more’s the pity but I kind of like Barack Obama.
9. neocon | June 14th, 2008 at 9:57 am
Vicodin,
I think you have far too much of said surname in your cocoa. That was one of the more delusional posts I have ever read.
I certainly pre-date the rubiks cube, and found your analogy to be completely non-sensical. Are you saying that hidden in Cavs non-sequitur post is THE answer? And if so, what answer would that be? Why hide it? Just come right out and tell us what the glorious, all-knowing liberal answer is to the ultimate defeat in Iraq.
And maybe Cav will ask you out on a date if you’re lucky. He is dreamy.
10. SEW | June 14th, 2008 at 10:49 am
bongo—thanks for defining useful idiot–as predicted–again.
11. Casper | June 14th, 2008 at 10:53 am
Cavalor,
Haven’t you figured this out yet. The only way we lose in Iraq is it we bring home our troops when the Democrats are in power. If McCain wins and he brings the troops home during his administration. then we have achieved victory regardless of what condition Iraq is in. It’s really quite simple.
Personally, I will be happy when we are able to pull our troops out of harms way. If the Republicans want to claim it as a victory, so be it.
12. FmrMarine | June 14th, 2008 at 11:11 am
Neo;
What a freeking MORON vicodin is. his tag says it all.
The leftist trolls who robo post here are becoming more unhinged by the day.
When I was young I could never understand how a country could end up in a civil war.
Today is is crystal clear and will soon be inevitable.
Especially if McCain wins. Stay armed stay safe.
13. neocon | June 14th, 2008 at 11:12 am
Casper,
So that’s how you envision supporting the troops, that all volunteer force who are helping support and protect and young ME democracy and keeping the terrorists occupied? Just bring them home?
My nephews who each served two duties, would like to go back. The older one helped an Iraqi businessman open his business in Baghdad before leaving. But none of that matters to you I suppose, because YOU, and only YOU, know what’s best for them, right?
How selfish, and how agenda driven is that?
Quite frankly, my nephews don’t appreciate that kind of support. But maybe I should have them get in touch with you, since you obviously know what’s best for them.
“It’s really quite simple.” - Casper
No. I think that’s just you.
14. neocon | June 14th, 2008 at 11:14 am
fmrMarine,
I concur. Thank you for your service and keep fighting the good fight.
15. FmrMarine | June 14th, 2008 at 11:18 am
casper:
>>>>Personally, I will be happy when we are able to pull our troops out of harms way.<<<<
DUUUUUHHHHH !
THAT is WHY we have “troops”……THEY GO INTO harms way to keep us SAFE…….THEY KNOW IT and ACCEPT IT.
Only sniveling COWARDS like you wring their hands and whine while shaking in the corner and wetting your pants.
Islam is at WAR with us and our culture…Iraq is only a point in which we CHOSE to confront them.
Its there or here…the RATS chose here, W has chosen their back yard….simple.
16. FmrMarine | June 14th, 2008 at 11:21 am
Neo
The trolls here especially from HELLS newspaper or whatever are a window into some very sick minds.
I guess athiesm, coupled with debauchery is truly a “mental disorder”
17. Casper | June 14th, 2008 at 11:24 am
neocon,
I have two daughters, a nephew, and several former students who have served or are serving in Iraq. Quite frankly, they don’t appreciate the lack of support you and the Bush administration has given them. Maybe I should have them get in touch with you, since you obviously know what’s best for them.
18. Brian (Boston) | June 14th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
For years on B4B and here people have been claiming victory is coming. I’ll believe it when I see it.
19. Pain | June 14th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
12. FmrMarine | June 14th, 2008 at 11:11 am
“When I was young I could never understand how a country could end up in a civil war.”
All you have to do is keep trusting the neocons, the theocrats and the evangelical snake oil salesmen and you will get that civil war. The good news is unlike a world where your Neo-Fascist side wins there will still be civil liberties when the Progressives prevail.
Faith and free speech as opposed to rite repetitive religion on the cheap and sexual shame and homophobia wrapped in an American flag and mounted on a cross. Sinclair Lewis nailed you guys with how fascism will come to America. We will neither salute nor shall We kneel!
20. Cavalor Epthith, Esquire, D.S.V.J. | June 14th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
15. FmrMarine | June 14th, 2008 at 11:18 am
Islam is at WAR with us and our culture…Iraq is only a point in which we CHOSE to confront them.”
I am not going to come out and call you stupid Fmr Marine because that would be too easy and quite rude of me. Instead I am going to show you how wrong you are. All life being equal, when Tim McVeigh blew up the Murrah federal Building there was no such sort of response from the GOP members of Congress that said they needed a war on terror because to that point the OKC bombing was the largest terror attack in US history.
The FBI owrking in concert with CIA, NSA DIA and state agencies in Oklahoma City solved the crime caught the bad guys and the country mourned its tragic loss and moved on, without ripping a hole through the US Constution.
The only reason there was Chinese fire drill after September 11, 2001 was because there was an opening to get to the Middle East. Bases, government contracts, there was money be made and influence to be pedaled. Even the showing the Arab League that “if you mess with America like this we will destroy your country and nothing will happen to out President even when the people no longer support the war.”
Clinton didn’t have to turn civil liberties upside down to get to the heart of the matter and I didn’t see anyone setting up offshore camps for white supremacists in GITMO. But 9/11 presented itself as a golden opportunity for America to open new doors where onnce many windows were nailed shut. I wonder what Barack Obama can accomplish between your borders with such broad and sweeping Executive Branch power? Maybe you will come to understand that it is not the dancing or the TV or even the lifestyle but what your operatives have done in Muslim lands in the name of your government to undermine their progress or steal their resources or support of those they see as enemies that causes them to plot against your innocent citizens.
21. SEW | June 14th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
“Stay armed stay safe”
I still have my 18″ sawed off double barrel 12 gauge with ample 00 buckshot. Stay safe.
22. Vicodin-N-Cocoa | June 14th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
Neo thweetie:
1) I think Vikeys are the BOSS WRAP…and I’m just waiting on my cx to get back from Haifa to hit me up with 200 of them. They go great with Swiss Miss instant, with or without marshmallow juniors
2) Why is the worst thing you feel you can call someone is “gay”? I don’t understand that. But I’ll tell you the same thing I told the little kid playing soldier up there. I’m 46, by dead reckoning I think I’ve had sex with 125 women plus or minus 7. 3 of them have been American TV actresses you’d give a lung to get within six feet of. I KNOW for a fact that I’ve gotten it on with MORE GUYS than you have women if you are even straight which I rate as a toss-up. Not that it would bother me in the slightest if you were gay. I have no idea what Cavalor chooses to do with his body. And I know him well. How could you possibly have an opinion about it that has any validity?
3) I don’t live in the United States but in US terms there are no “leftists.” There are two parties: a center-right party and a Nativist Chickenhawk party. In world terms, I’d call myself “center-left.” I’m pro-business. I’m for low taxes. I’m for monetary neutrality. I’m for flexible but largely conservative fiscal policy, meaning prudent not big “C” let the children starve. I believe that financial regualtions in the US are too stringent but environmental regulations are too lax. I agree with NRA’s position on guns. You may own all the guns you care to. When I lived in the US I exercised my right NOT to own a gun.
I am pro-choice. I am anti-war. I would trade dollar-for-dollar a military or national security cut with a tax cut any minute of any day. I am for free capital markets in the purest sense. No subsidies to oil companies. Not subsidies to ADM and Cargill. Natural monopolies may earn extra-normal profit but not in excess of 10 points on top of their cost of capital. I am against capital punishment. I am against incarcerating juveniles with adults. I am against mandatory sentences of any kind and especially mandatory custodial sentences for non-violent crime. If you’d be willing to end the wars, dismantle the Department Of Homeland Security, demilitarize the police, establish a defense budget that changes the Department Of War to a Department Of Defense, I would have no problem whatsoever with FAIR TAX including the abolition of the IRS which I cannot stand. I am in favor of slowly raising interest rates to fight inflation. I love capitalism. I’m rich, but I grew up poor, so I guess you’re whole “bootstraps” malarkey works after all. I put $18mm in trust for my son. I own 4 homes. I own 5 businesses. I hold an MBA. I own a thoroughbred racing stable with horses in 5 US states. I and my partners were, unfortunately, underbidders for the ownership of an NHL franchise. I have a full-time cook and a cleaning lady. I live life to its fullest, son. What sort of leftist am I, exactly?
Oh, for you religious dudes. I am Jewish but I do not believe in god. I support Labour or Kadima in Israel. My girlfriend is a Roman Catholic who reads the bible every day and takes Mass every Sunday. That doesn’t stop her from enjoying copious amounts of drugs with me nor having menages-a-trois when the mood strikes us. She has shown me bible passages and I think the words of Jesus make a lot of sense. I don’t think he is or was a supernatural being, but I don’t argue theology with her. That would take too much time away from sex, gambling and resort travel.
What else, buddy, what else? I live in South America. I’ve been divorced twice. I have an 8 year old son. His mother and I have an international joint custody agreement which works fine because he’s nearly fluent in Spanish now and loves it in both places. He starts at short-stop and bats lead-off for his Little League squad. He has two city-wide math prizes and one chess championship to his credit.
His favorite group is Green Day. And there are few things that make him happier than listening to American Idiot. He thinks Hillary Duff is cute. He’s also an excellent No-Limit Texas Hold ‘Em and Pot Limit Omaha player. He plays center or right-wing on his hockey team.
Life is great when you don’t worry about flags or countries or God or yellow support the troops ribbons or God Bless America or bigotry or hating Muslims for no reason. It’s all good when you can do your work. Make some money. Have fun with your friends. Speak different languages. And know that we’re all going to the same place. Tomorrow or in 50 years or whenever.
I can’t vote but if I could I’d vote for Barack Obama for president. You should consider it. He seems like a gentleman and would make a fine president.
Sayonara suckers.
23. SEW | June 14th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
“Why is the worst thing you feel you can call someone is “gay”? ” Vicodin
Actually that would be a compliment to you.
24. Vicodin-N-Cocoa | June 14th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
ABSOLUTELY
25. Cavalor Epthith, Esquire, D.S.V.J. | June 14th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
23. SEW | June 14th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
And how could being true to yourself and honest not be a compliment.
As I would no more deny my wife and children the protection and comfort my station in the Afterlife provides so too I cannot deny my own respect and admiration to my friends. Such things as orientation never come into play
And there you have it VNC, more conservative intellectualism. VNC are the right wing “sex obsessed” or “sex distressed?”
18. Brian (Boston) | June 14th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
What you said.
26. Pain | June 14th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
21. SEW | June 14th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
And exactly what effect is that supposed to have on a 1 megaton MIRV gravity bomb? You gonna shoot the big bad flash of nuclear fire in the sky SEW?
27. SEW | June 14th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
“Esquire” Say what? Might you try English?
28. Cavalor Epthith, Esquire, D.S.V.J. | June 14th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
27. SEW | June 14th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Did I misspeak? Was I unclear? I apologize profusely as English is neither my first or second language as I have said here before. And as a member of the bar in my homeland I am qulaified to use the title “Esquire” in my dealings with all sentient beings on Terra.
In other word I rebut with SEW might you try “Reason?”
29. Evergreen | June 14th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Right now, we just get ever more shrill assertions that the war is lost June 14th, 2008 at 02:45am Mark Noonan
How dare you keep making these accusations? Haven’t our troops done enough for the neocon cause? Militarily our troops routed the Iraqi army in about a week. To keep saying 71% of the population believes our troops somehow lost this war is wrong and hurtful. The administration’s incompetence has put us in this position where only a diplomatic solution can end the Iraqi civil war.
This is the same type of nonsense heard coming out of the Con mouths after Vietnam. “We would have won the war had the troops not been all doped up.” Expect for the top brass who often live for war I wonder why any GI grunt with a right mind votes for a Con.
Come January we will fight the true war on terror in Afghanistan. It is almost a given, we can expect no support for our troops fighting there from the Cons. There is no oil there; only terrorists.
30. Vicodin-N-Cocoa | June 14th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
EdtaPAIN y Ser Boss:
Alla la verga! Pero que va con la vaina tonta de los evangelicos extremos?
I tell you I’m not in a real big hurry to swap all I worked for in exchange for a shot gun? That’s what the dude’s prized possession is?
I’m truly dumbfounded. It makes sense if he were a hunter I guess. I prefer fishing myself. My gear is nothing special. Ordinary Shakespeare salt-water in-shore rod, Penn reel, not too exotic on the tackle. That’s what I forgot to tell these schmendricks. I really enjoy fishing.
I think I like is as much as smoking rock but not as much as makin the two backed beast.
And I think my favorite fishing is for Bluefins, but if the weather’s nice tomorrow I’m going out to Arenosa and doing a half day of small-mouth bass. There’s a lovely lakeside tavern that fries them up for you and serves them with fries or fried patacones. Ice cold beer, michelada style.
Excellent. That dude’s gun fetish was worth it. I wouldn’t have thought of bass fishing otherwise.
Cool beenz
31. Mark Noonan | June 14th, 2008 at 1:33 pm
Evergreen,
Shouldn’t it be 87.9% by now? You guys keep pushing up the “want out of Iraq now” number, but you’ve been stuck about 71% for about three months now….
At any rate, whether that many want us out of Iraq or not is not the issue - what is important is that you on the left called the war lost years ago. Well, its been won, now (and Brian, victory looks like the situation we’re in now) - and just how will you square this victory with your leftwing, defeatist rhetoric?
32. Mark Noonan | June 14th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
Pain,
Your ignorance is amazing…especially in that you apparantly still don’t know what a fraud Sinclair Lewis was…
33. Vicodin-N-Cocoa | June 14th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
Mr Noonan: I can tolerate any jokes at my expense but I will not tolerate your calling PAIN ignorant. Calling Sinclair Lewis “a fraud” is just your opinion. It is evidence of absolutely nothing.
I’ll give you a few minutes to apologize. I haven’t insulted you or any of your regulars. Nor has PAIN.
34. Pain | June 14th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
32. Mark Noonan | June 14th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
You know the quote We take it. Sinclair Lewis was not a fraud Mr Noonan Sinclair Lewis was honest. He had the rare quality in his time of speaking his mind and sticking to it.
How many Wewould ask among your ilk that runs the gamut from reactionaries on the far right to center right moderates would feel comfortable explaining as Vicodin did their feelings on all those issues. Race, taxes, fiscal policy, abortion, Islam, gender preference, gambling all of them?
It is not Our ignorance, Mr. Noonan, that is stunning in the midst of all the proofs you have seen that your view of the world is being rejected as arcane at worst or “quaint” at best by those who take such matters seriously and by that We mean the men and women who do control your life even though you are unlikely ever to brush shoulders with them in publick, it is your pride.
35. Vicodin-N-Cocoa | June 14th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
Still waiting on that apology to PAIN, buddy.
36. Robin Naismith Green | June 14th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
33. Vicodin-N-Cocoa | June 14th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
The Sinclair Lewis thing it’s a bad opinion in the sense that those who have hocked their reason for religion are always put out by the Lewises and the Menckens of the world. In a free country isn’t it the duty of intellectuals to weigh whether their country is really doing great things or not? But Father Coughlin he was cool right. Religion might save your Soul in dark times but when a rifle butt is cracked across your face no matter how you pray that crap hurts! Trust me Pain can handle Itself that whole last word and Justice at Judgment thing is taken very seriously in these parts. it’s not worth hating the Living over it all comes out in the wash on our home court.
37. Vicodin-N-Cocoa | June 14th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Fair enough, Hoops. But you and Fred are super-close so you know about the neighborhood thing, especially when there’s a handful of you and 10 zillion of them.
38. James Beam | June 14th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
The UN Bill that legalizes the US occupation of Iraq expires at the end of the year.
There will be no bilateral agreement extending the US’s stay in Iraq.
The Shiite majority is loyal to Iran because Iran gave them shelter and support when Saddam was persecuting them.
Now we discover that Ahmed Chabli (excuse the spelling) was actually an agent for Iran. His assignment was to con the Bush Administration into invading Iraq to strengthen Iranian influence in the Middle East. I guess the Iranians are the only ones that can claim “Mission Accomplished”.
39. Robin Naismith Green | June 14th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
37. Vicodin-N-Cocoa | June 14th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Oh I’m with you and I read you loud and clear. The only reason the Shadow and DT aren’t here is they lit Noonan up too many times in the past.
[whispers]
This isn’t like a real blog where you have free speech. This is like a DDR blog where the Stasi will come out and “erase you” if you say the wrong things. Even talking about being erased can get you erased! I would tell you some of the things that can get you erased but then you and I both would be erased. It’s kind of like a Beckett play on crack with Billy Graham directing and Hess doing the lighting
40. Vicodin-N-Cocoa | June 14th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
OK. On to more informative subjects, then.
Mr Noonan, I am led to believe that you are a practicing Roman Catholic, yes?
I need this explained to me. My girlfriend is as well. What I don’t understand is why when she reads her bible or goes to Mass it makes her REALLY happy. Yet, in America extreme Catholics such as yourself are always so angry?
41. William Teach | June 14th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
Poorly. With massive seething and crying. Followed by massive deflections, if the comments by those on the left in this thread are any indication.
42. Jeremiah | June 14th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
We will neither salute nor shall We kneel!–Pain
Aaah ha ha HAAA!
So it is with the cowardly and unbelieving!
You may not to us, Pain, but you will to the Man upstairs….You can rest your petty little fears and dreams on that.
43. Vicodin-N-Cocoa | June 14th, 2008 at 2:30 pm
Okay, as you haven’t answered I reckon I’m going to have to try to guess. Let me tell you a story about my girlfriend first. Her father was a prosecutor in the province of Caldas in Colombia. He was prosecuting a “routine” execution murder of one gang member by a rival gang. They blew my girlfriend’s car up but he was still barely alive so they shot him about 50 times with pistols.
She was devastated but she takes her religion seriously and when her anger, hurt, fear, and sense of loss began to ebb she read her bible and forgave her father’s assassins. Not in the formal sense because they were never caught.
When she speaks of Jesus, she refers to him as the “prince of peace.”
I have to conclude, buddy, that they’ve got Roman Catholicism down pat here. It’s an uplifting religion that encourages peace, tranquility and a sense of meaning. Up where you are it’s just another way to run a tax-scam on the government, abuse children, promote war and feel righteous all at the same time.
I don’t practice religion myself but from what I’ve observed in South America, the Catholic faith bears a closer resemblence to its origins than that strange sadistic superstition you practice.
44. Jeremiah | June 14th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
43. Vicodin-N-Cocoa | June 14th, 2008 at 2:30 pm
So, in other words, by your definition, Christians should not try to prevent mean people who hate us, from creating a catastrophic event to hurt thousands of good happy people here, correct?
How’s come? I though good was supposed to rule, not bad….Am I right?
45. Baton Rouge | June 14th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
41. William Teach | June 14th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
Since the Right feels it can define the debate on this matter what does it matter what “the Left” thinks at all? What the Right fears is looking bad not really winning and losing because it would take a scholarly examination to understand what has happened to Iraq. I have not had a single historian not Goodwin, not McCullough not Sabato who says that this was wasn’t botched. This is why winning and losing are the terms the right wing uses because these can be argued to death. Ask them if the handling of the post combat phase was “botched” and those who do analysis of such matters both within the Pentagon and without will use the English word, “botched” and worse “overestimated the enthusiasm of the Iraqi people for democracy.”
I know how this game is played. If Obama wins and the troops depart and all stays well Bush won the war. If Oabam wins and the troops are withdrawn and all goes to Hell Obama lost the war. If McCain wins and withdraws the troops and all is well McCain is a great hero who estimate the time perfectly and judged Maliki’s earnestness to stabilize his country. If McCain wins and withdraws the troops and things go to Hell it will be the fault of “liberals” who want the US to “lose.”
What about the liberals who are buried in Arlington and other hallowed ground that have died “to bring democracy to Iraq.” how many of you would have supported President Bush for a second term if that was the rationale he gave for invading Iraq? This is a wicked game when it is played by amateurs.
46. Vicodin-N-Cocoa | June 14th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
Jeremiah, I just translated everything PAIN has written here and all that you have written here, and she said to tell PAIN that the regulars here are not real Christians and that whether PAIN believes in God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit or not, she knows that Jesus loves PAIN and God loves PAIN and she fears for the souls of the rest of you.
This is her thing, not mine. I’m an atheist. But I have to tell you it’s lovely hearing Christianity used as a peaceful balm and not an excuse for sadism.
47. Jeremiah | June 14th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
If Oabam wins and the troops are withdrawn and all goes to Hell Obama lost the war. If McCain wins and withdraws the troops and all is well McCain is a great hero–Baton Rouge.
That wouldn’t happen with somebody with a head on their shoulders…Only a person who understands evil and the people controlled by it will stay and finish the work to stabilize and help the people there to understand that evil cannot prevail and that we will do everything in our means to ensure that evil is thwarted wherever it may be found……you see, our job is to protect innocent people from getting hurt by evil people.
Islam is a wicked religion…and its aim is to murder as many people as it can to further their political ideology of control by force….and anyone who thinks otherwise is not thinking rationally.
Understanding the nature of the enemy is key…and their role is none other than to steal, kill and destroy. Good men will step to the plate with the courage to stop them.
48. Pain | June 14th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
44. Jeremiah | June 14th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Who put you in charge of defining “good” and “bad”.
A man who fires his rifles at troops who have invaded his country could be called a patriot but you would not say that if that man has a anme like Ahmed and lives in Fallujah because the troops he is shooting at comes from your nation state.
You simplify matters too much because you do not wish to have to deal with the nuance and yet these are your parameters We speak of!
Is a woman who forgives her father’s killers in her heart a fool or someone of Faith to be admired? To us she is admirable. If that is the case and you agree then how can you hold Islam in such contempt? As a religious man how can you now forgive al Qaeda even down to Usama bin laden? Is your forgiveness only diluted by your pride when your nation is stung? is this not the zenith of hubris a great sin?
Inshallah, these are questions that every man must ask in his own mind every day of his first life and greater rewards can be gained from their examination that making ignorant of them.
Jeremiah, We would have you read the Qu’ran and seek an understandling of Islam for your own edification and to clear that blockage between your ears!
49. Jeremiah | June 14th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
46. Vicodin-N-Cocoa | June 14th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
It is incumbent upon Pain’s choice as to whether he will accept Christ as his personal savior and be welcomed with open arms into God’s kingdom.
50. Vicodin-N-Cocoa | June 14th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
Jeremiah, how do you know Islam is a wicked religion? Have you read the Koran? Do you know any practicing Muslims? I know plenty. I don’t know any wicked ones.
Again, I don’t practice religion but if someone wants to discuss theirs with me and I don’t know much about it, I’m always happy to listen and learn.
Religion is what you make of it, I guess.
51. Tractatus | June 14th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Islam is a wicked religion…and its aim is to murder as many people as it can to further their political ideology of control by force….and anyone who thinks otherwise is not thinking rationally.
Do you want to execute Muslims, Jerry? Are they better or worse than the gay people you want to execute? Can a Christian marry a Muslim, or would that be “disordered” the same way you think a black person marrying a white person is?
52. Pain | June 14th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
46. Vicodin-N-Cocoa | June 14th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
There are two things that We know:
reason is the purpose of the sentient mind
and,
the wages of sin is death.
What these men have forgotten is that they do not determine what “sin” is to serve their petty political short lived purposes.
Please honor Us by telling your wonderfully kind lady friend in the spirit of “Qu’ul cuda praedex nihil!”
Que nunca sufren mientras usted vive bella dama y no un minuto después de su muerte! Y lo hacemos porque consideramos que es Nuestro encargado de juzgar las almas con la equidad, la amistad y la justicia!
53. Pain | June 14th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
47. Jeremiah | June 14th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
How many people has Christian America killed in Iraq by their invasion? How many times the number that were killed in America on 9/11? This is not democracy building nor do you feel that is your nation’s purpose there. What this is for people like you Jeremiah is retribution for being humbled. Yours is an evil reaction to an evil action. What happened to turning the other cheek?
54. Jeremiah | June 14th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
50. Vicodin-N-Cocoa | June 14th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
Religion is what you make of it, I guess.
Nah, it’s not a guessing game, there is right and wrong in this world……Only one man….and only One book teaches peace.
Just think of it this way, to get down to your level of understanding……..If Islam was “right”, then why have so many people been killed by it, and why do thousands advocate the same thing? Just think of all the pretty little children snatched from their mothers’ arms and their little throats cut and then left to lay….
Is that right, what they’ve done and are doing?
If that doesn’t covict your heart and tell you that Islam is wrong….I don’t know what will, except one thing…if that same turmoil would come here.
55. Vicodin-N-Cocoa | June 14th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
Jeremiah, I’m the wrong person to ask about religion because I don’t practice it. You’ll have to work all that out for yourself.
I merely make the observation that as I see Catholicism practiced in the part of the world I live, it appears to me to make its adherents very happy. As I saw religion practiced in the United States it seems to make its adherents rather angry and vengeful.
Again, you strike me as a very angry man and I believe your faith is sincere and you accept Jesus as your savior. My girlfriend does as well. I wrote in an earlier post that she shows me bible passages from time to time mostly having to do with the teachings of Jesus.
Looking at it with secular eyes, the teachings of Jesus make a lot of sense. But there’s never anything about death and hate that she’s shown me, only about such things as love and charity and understanding.
I know that it’s the New Testament that she reads but she has also shown me similar passages from the Old Testament. She’s never once criticized me for being an atheist. She told me that she believes that God loves me no matter what.
Square this up for me please.
56. Pain | June 14th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
54. Jeremiah | June 14th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
How exactly did the United States carry out Manifest Destiny? Whose land was that from the Mississippi to the Pacific? How many died on their way to America in shackles? How was the Southern Baptist Church whelped and why? Do you think these numbers add up to more or less than what Islam had done in the last oh 1386 years???
57. Robin Naismith Green | June 14th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
55. Vicodin-N-Cocoa | June 14th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
No fair!
You are asking Jan Van Breda Kolff to hit a 22 foot jumper from the baseline as he falls out of bounds with Jamaal Wilkes draped all over him.
I got my hoops analogy for the day in. Yes!
58. SEW | June 14th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
“Hey lefties, define Useful Idiot, again. Thanks.”
SEW post#1
Pain, Vicodin, “Esquire”, Tract. Thanks again!
59. Robin Naismith Green | June 14th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
58. SEW | June 14th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
Isn’t there a gun to cling to or something in your hose. Are there no NASCAR races on basic cable today? Don’t you have children you could be teaching about how being a conservative made you rich and will do so for them too?
60. Jeremiah | June 14th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
She’s never once criticized me for being an atheist.
Well, if she truly cared about you, she would warn you about the dangers of spending an eternity with Jesus Christ.
You see, Jesus was always critical of the sin in peoples’ lives, he always stressed the dangers of sin before it was ever committed so we can avoid its consequences, you see. And that, if we do have sin in our lives in order to get right with God we must get sin out of our lives and be made new people through His spirit. And one of those prinicpal sins was disbelief….there’s one verse that sticks in my mind so prevalently….
‘Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God.’
As Christians, it is our obligation to tell others about Jesus Christ and warn them about the dangers of living without a committment to God’s Word…and that’s one of the main areas that many Church pastors fail terribly this day and age, they fail to tell others about their duty to God…and to sput them to go into the world and get the message out.
In effect, what happens, is Christians remain silent, because they think as long as they are “saved” that they are covered without any obligations. But as Jesus said…
Faith without works is what? It is Dead.
And that’s why society is failing and we become a more secular degenerative nation…because people won’t get out there and fight the immoral implementation by Democrats.
Christians need to get some spunk…So we can grow stronger and become more unified to counter the evil that is taking this country over.
61. Jeremiah | June 14th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
Oops! Let me change that:
Well, if she truly cared about you, she would warn you about the dangers of spending an eternity without Jesus Christ.
That’s the way it should read.
62. SEW | June 14th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
Robin, thanks for removing your nose from your mate’s, eh, long enough to define useful idiot, again! Thanks.
63. Vicodin-N-Cocoa | June 14th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Jeremiah, you won’t respond to PAIN’s last inquiry and you neglected mine.
I’ll try another tack with you. A purely secular one because I’m a Cartesian rationalist. I do the most study I can with the limited tools I have and try to be right a few percentage points more often than I’m wrong.
I am going to tell you something I’d say assumptotically approaches truth, 99.999%, say. I should be kissing all of your feet instead of arguing with you. I was a founding partner of a Russian equity fund specializing in crude oil shares and metals and mining shares. In 1999, I won a very large amount of money in the Belmont Stakes won by Sarava. I bought shares of Altria and RJ Reynolds with a bit of it, but I suspected that Bush would win in 2000 so I bought as much ExxonMobil as I could get my hands on. My parents and sister did the same. We are all pacifists. From 9/11 until today I have made more money that I can count. I could not estimate my net worth because it’s spread hither and thither. Two years ago, I put 18 million USD in trust for my son, thinking that would leave me with enough to invest, speculate, have fun, etc. At $137/bbl I’ve lost track of what the remainder yielded me or what my son’s trust account is worth or what the ExxonMobil shares in the family trust are worth.
I can’t spend all this money. At some point, I’ll set up some other trust and just whack it in there for my son. My parents don’t know what to do with it all. Neither does my sister. When I was 8 and my sister was 4, we lived in a tiny apartment in a Puerto Rican neighborhood and sardines on toast was dinner or chicken hearts on toast. I didn’t know what money was. I had never met a rich person until I got a scholarship to prep school. I’m used to living a fun life but I don’t want an Aronow boat, or a Ferrari, or a fancy watch. I wear jeans and t-shirts. I have fun. I travel. I read. I have a lot of sex. I get high a lot. I shoot pool. I play a lot of cards. I go fishing. I make a mess of it on the golfcourse.
So, whatever you hawks wanted, I know you didn’t want this! For an atheist family who despises war to get launched like this.
Now, on the other hand, if McCain is elected there will be a 4 front war: Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran and South America. You guys tried a 2-front war against us in WWII and lost it to the Allies. Why do you want a 4 front war covering maybe 5 times as much geography with fewer personnel? If you win,you still lose because the inflation and instability in the capital markets combined with the US debt load will turn the US into the Congo with nukes.
64. Jeremiah | June 14th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
63. Vicodin-N-Cocoa | June 14th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Well, I don’t have time to go over all of what you wrote, but I’ll leave this bit…
It certainly appears you’ve got money, and plenty of it at that, of which you won’t take a penny with you when you die…..now, how is your soul prepared to spend eternity?
65. Vicodin-N-Cocoa | June 14th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
I’m giving it all to my son. I don’t believe in any of that other stuff. When I die, I die and we’ll see what happens.
66. William Teach | June 14th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Hmm, I think my point about “poorly” and massive deflections is continuing to bear fruit.
67. SEW | June 14th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
“I’m giving it all to my son.” Vicodin
Sounds like a hopeful Republican, not a death tax liberal. Good luck with that.
68. SEW | June 14th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Vicodin –priceless. Made your money on cigarettes, alcohol, and oil and gas.
Upon death shouldn’t you pay all taxes due, then pay 55% of everything above $3.5 million, like the messiah has laid out. No like all good wealthy liberals, that is your feel good plan for everyone else, while you leave everything to your son in trust. You are a good liberal!
Priceless.
69. Vicodin-N-Cocoa | June 14th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
SEW: You’re catching on. I never said I was a “liberal.” I have maybe what you’d call libertarian or radical right wing economic and financial views and kind of radically left wing social views (for the USA; it would be considered center-left anywhere else).
I’ve made no secret about being a free-marketeer.
We part company on the war and social issues. I’d end the war, start no new ones, cut defense spending, try to balance the budget first. Put in a sound money policy. And take it from there.
But it’s not my fight. I’m not voting in this election. I have no desire to return to the US and I would prefer it if the US didn’t interfere with things down here because they are working out well. I fully expect it, though. Clinton and Obama bring out such venom in the American people, more or less any head-of-state could be portrayed as a villain because the social and economic policies of pretty much every modern capitalist democratic-republic has settled all the social issues in a way that is far to the left of Clinton or Obama. As crazy as Alan Garcia is and he was a butcher in 80s and pretty far right even now, Peru has national health and no death penalty. So, it’s all silly. If the US wants war with Canada, it would take a reasonably talent Republican strategist about 10 minutes to work up the talking point.
Geez, I could do it.
70. Vicodin-N-Cocoa | June 14th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
SEW: Take it easy, man. It’s not my fight. I don’t care what you folks do, just don’t mess in my neck of the woods. It’s a pain in the ass for me but if you think Iraq was hard, South America is impossible. I have no interest in seeing US servicepeople killed.
71. Robin Naismith Green | June 14th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
68. SEW | June 14th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Not his fault you guys are stuck in the Middle Class. Where’d you all go wrong? high school? Didn’t take enough math thought all those musically inclined kids were fags weren’t really athletically talented enough for college sports? Mediocre jobs average looking spuses no drugs no kink Groundhog Day existences where one would welcome a wild swinging Paradise to mundane old Terra.
72. Vicodin-N-Cocoa | June 14th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Hoops: I’ve been poor and I’ve been rich and rich is better. I don’t get the sense that these guys were super athletes. It’s possible that they bullied other kids. Can’t really say. All I know is that I learned survival skills in the neighborhood and I had a lot of ambition and it was very important for my parents that I work hard and make school my first priority because they new that I would inherit a dispostion towards substance abuse and that in my neighborhood there would be lots of temptations as I hit 11 or 12.
I give them the world of credit. They taught me to read and write at home before pre-school. We always played lots of cards and board games as a family. My father coached me in baseball and football although the real athletic ability passed from him to my son and skipped me.
It was all true, but they instilled a great work ethic and a love of learning and as crazy as it got, that schoolwork always got done and I was an ambitious little sonomabitch.
What these fellers did, they did. When I finished high school, I got my final standing and I was #12. My father said “what’s up with this? Why not #1?” I said “Dids, look at the folks ahead of me. All they did was school work. I finished #12 having slept with girls of every race and color and I did everything from light beer to heroin. And I’m deciding between Wesleyan and Johns Hopkins. I think that’s a big #12.” The old man cracked up.
73. neocon | June 14th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
Vicodin,
You’re quite the character. Demented. But a character none the less.
I loved your line about the US not “interfering” with things down there. Don’t worry. But it seems ironic that many of them are trying to get here. I’ll tell you what, tell them not to interfere with us, ok?
I was really amused by your simplistic approach to ending war. Who would’ve thought of that? You’re brilliant. Pull back, cut defense and develop a sound money policy? Wow. We could really use talent like that. Will you reconsider coming back?
On second thought, stay there.
Have a nice day!
peace, neocon
74. Vicodin-N-Cocoa | June 14th, 2008 at 9:40 pm
NeoCon:
I’d rather be the lid on a garbage can in Manizales than be the Emperor Of Flag Pin Town. So, don’t worry about that.
Which South American is trying to go to America, exactly? I don’t expect you to know the difference, but which South American country’s people are emigrating to the US or want to? The answer is: none.
You think my macroeconomic views are so naive? OK. Fair enough. I assume you’re intelligent enough to go to Bloomberg or Reuters or Dow Jones. Go to the foreign exchange section and do a 7 year chart of any South American country’s currencies against the USD at purchasing power parity. Find me one which has appreciated LESS than 200% against the USD. There are none because the cost of holding dollars to a South American is too high. There’s an 11% real interest carry.
These people you disdain so much are wealthier than you are. They have no reason to want to live in the US. Your country is a laughing stock. They say the USA is a communist dictatorship. They say that the funniest thing about the USA is that the two things you think your great at you suck at: War and Business.
They say that you are “asquerosos” (”nauseating”), “maleducados” (”impolite”), “saposos” (”innocent fools”) and for the life of them they can’t understand why you are all so fat when we have the same products in the supermarkets that you do.
Go out clubbing with a bunch of friends and everybody can do a John McCain impression with a cloth napkin to create the distorted disfigured face and the crippled hands trying in vain to grab a glass of ice water, and the mean grimace and the high pitched squeaky voice. It is pretty funny, you have to admit.
He is kind of a geek.
But I take McStonehands at his word that he’ll come down here and invade Venezuela, Ecuador and Bolivia. His GI JOES won’t get to try. They’re supposed to use Colombia as a staging area, but the problem is that despite having a president who is sympathetic to the Bush/McCain cause, they too have a red state/blue state kind of thing and it’s just like it is in the US. While the interior is all for Uribe, the cities are all for Gaviria.
But they can’t very well use Colombia as a “staging area” for an incursion into Venezuela without locking down Bogota, Cali, and Medellin, all about the size of Bagdad.
I assume you’re not familiar with any of this so I’ll tell you what’s going on. There has been 40 years of poltical violence over who controls the cocaine and which banks launder the money. The people are not to be trifled with.
Let’s say GI JOE decides he’ll take over the Jewish or Arab neighborhood in Cali. The Jews and Arabs there don’t fight. They consider each other to be Semite cousins and they have a ton of money and private armies. So, let’s say GI JOE comes upon three upper-class Jewish teenage girls near the country-club in Cali. What neither you or GI JOE understand is that though these are White rich girls with body piercings and Amy Winehouse t-shirts and cellphones, they’ve all seen their fathers, brothers, male cousins blown to bits by rival cartels or the paramiltaries by the time their 10 years old. They’re not stupid they know what’s going on and they look at (”thanks for your service”) GI JOE and they really couldn’t care less if GI JOE loves his country and Jesus and has a flag pin and his mother in Indiana bakes cherry pie. They just want the gringos to go away — like — now. GI JOE gives them a big American smile , probably thinking he’ll get a blowjob from one of them. They call their uncle on the other side of the golf course. Tell him what’s happening. He gets the private army ready.
Then, GI JOE passes and one or more of these innocent looking teenage girls takes pistol out of her little purse and blows GI JOE’S head into red mist. Poor GI JOE.
Now, it’s not that they’re evil girls, it’s that they’re affectless from all the violence they’ve seen since childhood. Their families tell them if you see someone in a uniform don’t waste a second just kill him. They go to private school. They have proms and bar mitzvahs and all that stuff. They just don’t care about strangers’ lives.
Now, tell me, if that’s what it’s like in the fancy part of Cali, what’s GI JOE going to do when he tries to secure the ghettoes of Cali?
And Colombia is your ally, remember? The goal is to conquer Chavez in Venezuela. Good luck, GI JOE. They have an army of 800,000 men. They sure don’t need roadside bombs and rocks to throw. Their weaponry is the same as yours. The oil wealth in that country is staggering. It’s a toss-up at even strength. Outnumbered 8-to-1? Are you nuts, man?
They’ll have a weiner roast with all of GI JOE and BLACKWATER’s dicks.
But we know how much McCain loves war, so he’ll send in another 100,000 lambs to the slaughter. Not my problem. My son’ll be safe. It’ll be your son doing the dying.
But you can’t have Barack Obama as president. He just wants to carry over whatever leases American companies have. Send a wire. Take delivery at NY Harbor. Thank you very much. See you next month. Bye.
Listen it’s old cripply geeky McCain stone hands who wants your kids to die for fun. Not Obama. Obama just wants to pay market price for the crude and be done with it.
I thought you said that Black people weren’t as smart as White people. What am I mssing here?
75. Jeremiah | June 14th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Their weaponry is the same as yours.
Surely SA don’t have F-14 TOMCATS … do they?
76. SEW | June 14th, 2008 at 10:12 pm
“Not his fault you guys are stuck in the Middle Class. Where’d you all go wrong? high school? Didn’t take enough math thought all those musically inclined kids were fags weren’t really athletically talented enough for college sports? Mediocre jobs average looking spuses no drugs no kink Groundhog Day existences where one would welcome a wild swinging Paradise to mundane old Terra.” Robin
Mushrooms again or your normal mental state?
77. SEW | June 14th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
“I’d rather be the lid on a garbage can in Manizales than be the Emperor Of Flag Pin Town. ”
Vicodin
You seem quite successful with that.
78. SEW | June 15th, 2008 at 12:46 am
“They’ll have a weiner roast with all of GI JOE and BLACKWATER’s dicks” Vicodin
Arse, enjoy your vicodin, cocoa, and girlfriend.
79. Timothy Horrigan | June 15th, 2008 at 1:27 am
As I recall, when we won victory over Saddam Hussein, the left said we should pull our troops out and send in UN peacekeepers. The fact is, we DID win victory over Saddam. It was a victory which was not worth the cost, but we did win.
Whatever the hell it is we are doing now, it can’t end in victory. Because, it is impossible to win some other country’s civil war. Our current situation is kinda as if in 1859 the Brits had invaded the USA and overthrown President Buchanan. There would be no way for them to win the conflict which would have followed.
80. Kahn | June 15th, 2008 at 2:00 am
Timothy,
Good thing the French didn’t blockade the British at Yorktown. Or supply us with arms. Oh wait, they did.
Hey look, my example wasn’t even hypothetical. Maybe you should read more.
81. neocon | June 15th, 2008 at 8:50 am
Vicodin,
By all means, stay exactly where you’re at. We have plenty of useful idiots up here.
I do wonder why you continue to post here with us “malecudados” Americanos? Why? You seem to be awfully obssessed with that of which you have left behind. Psycho-therapists would have a field day with that. Time to move on, son.
But if you insist, keep your posts short. I don’t care what you think or do. Because I consider South Americans dirty, smelly and bad sexual partners.
82. cam | June 16th, 2008 at 12:00 am
Victory? What victory? Its like you moved the goal post to your own 15 yard line, kicked a short field goal and then prepared for victory. Can any of you who yearn for “victory” in Iraq please define what that looks like. When things were going poorlly in Iraq you asked for patience. Now that we have seen a relatively short period of calm you are ready to put up another “Mission Accomplished” proclomation.
What I as a liberal am afraid of is not of victory but rather a public relations campaign that calls it victory - a “victory” that can be used as a back drop for John McCain or the next presidential candidate with an R next to his name, a victory that leads to the bankrupting of our economy or leads to a failed state like the victory in Afganistan that lead to the Taliban in Afganistan.
On another point, when are you going to give the “at least Bush has kept us safe”. Just because two things occur in close proximaty does not mean there is a relationship between the two. Keep in mind that at the same point in the Clinton presidency, a second attack had not yet occured, quite similar to the Bush presidency. Just because Bush spent billions and called it the war on terrorism does not mean there is any causation between the two events. Ultimately, if another attack occurs on US soil the response from conservatives will entirely depend on who becomes president this fall. If it is McCain, the attack will be blamed on the Democrats in congress. If its Obama you will blame him evern if it occurs on January 21, 2009.
83. Jimmyjon Jones | June 17th, 2008 at 7:39 am
Victory? The most recent stories I have been reading indicate terrible defeat.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080617/ap_on_re_as/afghanistan_6
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