An Observation About Those Who Come to Hate
June 24th, 2008 at 01:51am Mark Noonan
We’ve been getting a large dose of this, and I think it important that all of us try to understand the defect such poor creatures are suffering under - they are very nasty, but our duty is to help them if we can, and the one way we can’t help is by arguing with them. So far gone in dishonesty and varied vileness, arguments won’t reach them - only example. Pity is our best approach - and here is a quote from C. S. Lewis’ The Great Divorce to put it into perspective:
We met several Ghosts that had come so near to heaven only in order to tell the Celestials about Hell. Indeed this is one of the commonest types. Others, who had perhaps been (like myself) teachers of some kind actually wanted to give lectures about it: they brought fat notebooks full of statistics, and maps, and (one of them) a magic lantern. Some wanted to tell anecdotes of the notorious sinners of all ages whom they had met below. But the most part seemed to think that the mere fact of having contrived for themselves so much misery gave them a kind of superiority. “You have led a sheltered life!” they bawled. “You don’t know the seamy side. We’ll tell you. We’ll give you some of the hard facts’ - as if to tinge Heaven with infernal images and colours had been the only purpose for which they came. All alike, so far as I could judge from my own exploration of the lower world, were wholly unreliable, and all equally incurious about the country in which they had arrived. They repelled every attempt to teach them, and when they found that nobody listened to them they went back, one by one…
This curious wish to describe Hell turned out, however, to be only the mildest form of a desire very common among the Ghosts - the desire to extend Hell, to bring it bodily, if they could, into Heaven. There were tub-thumping Ghosts who in thin, bat-like voices urged the blessed to shake off their fetters, to escape from their imprisoment in happiness, to tear down the mountains with their hands, to seize Heaven “for their own”: Hell offered her cooperation…
Empty, fearful and without hope, some people feel a desire to bring their misery to others - that if by some mechanism they could make everyone as miserable as they are, then life would seem better in a relative sense. By being patient and loving towards these poor wretches, we’ll give them their opportunity for a change of heart - we can’t make them do it, and by our own power we can’t ensure it happens…but just paying them out in kind won’t help them, and will hurt us. So, keep this all in mind when you see the really nasty comment…pass it by, or respond with gentleness; the nasty comment, itself, will disappear in the by and by…but, meanwhile, we can do a good deed.
Entry Filed under: Announcements
15 Comments
1. Jeremiah | June 24th, 2008 at 2:22 am
Mark,
I agree with you’re assessment of the situation, but is something that we must differentiate in understanding. A moralist strives to make “bad” people “good”, and as you may well know, there are hundreds if not thousands of different opinions on what is moral. Jesus Christ, OTOH, came to give dead people life. Christ came with a fire in His eyes, condemning and rebuking the sin in peoples lives and the Pharisees scattered stumbling too and fro trying to hide their greed and wickedness and depravity. Hell is a very real place, and I would not want to see anyone under no circumstances go there, Oooh what a horrible, horrible thing. If we care, we will not compromise when the ravings of evil natured people bring - We reprimand with firm, swift action and condemnation of the ideas that are committed by none other than Satan.
In order to get people to understand, we must forewarn them, because if we tell them all about heaven then we’re just telling them half of what they need to know, half the story…there are people out there right now who believe in heaven, but not in hell and they think that they can do as they please living a lie and that “it pleases God”……they’re pleasing themselves, and that’s the carnality of the mind to do things in the flesh that will lead them to an eternity of literal torment. What these people need is Jesus Christ, they need to realize that they are dying, and that they have a SAVIOR who will SAVE them from that eternal torment called Hell. God loves them, and He doesn’t want to see them go to hell…they can reach out and grasp the hand of the Almighty who will pull them out of the mire and clay of destruction to sin.
All people must stand before God and give an account to the deeds done while in the body.
It’s a strict business, God doesn’t fool around, He’s very serious.
2. Mark Noonan | June 24th, 2008 at 2:38 am
Jeremiah,
It is not for you to judge - you don’t even know for certain if Judas is in Hell. Pity the poor people who are marching towards it - and gently try to bring them back. Literally, there but for the grace of God go you and I and he give his grace not so that we can feel superior and try to club others into repentance, but so that we, too, can gently and lovingly urge people off the road to Hell.
Furthermore, the purpose here is to instruct us, not them - to help us to understand how very sad it is…I want them all with me, each and every one of them, to laugh about our old differences under the light of the world to come. To come on fire and brimstone won’t help them, and may harm you.
3. Jeremiah | June 24th, 2008 at 2:53 am
Mark,
There’s been many a soul won to Christ under the conviction of a good ol’ fire and brimstone bible campmeeting - The Holy Spirit works regardless, you see, you allow God to use you for His purpose doesn’t matter what style preaching you use. When we challenge people spiritually then see is when the Holy Spirit takes over…It’s a marvelous work.
One Minister could be preaching as if he’s teaching school, another could be screaming to the top of his lungs like he’s gone half mad - but he’s not, it’s the Holy Spirit, and God’s Holy Spirit knows what’s best for the individuals He is calling to.
4. What? | June 24th, 2008 at 3:48 am
First,
Who are you talking about? Who is dispensing this hate?
Second (assuming the answer to the first question is “liberals”),
It is not that your arguments won’t reach us; it is that they are unpersuasive and frequently non-existent.
Jeremiah can quote the Bible but that really isn’t going to persuade anyone that we should kill homosexuals.
Mark, you can claim that going to art galleries is a sign of intellectual incuriosity, but that isn’t even an argument. It is a statement which you failed to support; a statement that reveals your own dislike and distrust of metropolitan culture. (I won’t even start on your plan to defund public universities.)
Neocon can talk about how liberals have no common sense, but that is not an argument. It is an insult, a fairly well worn one at that.
Third,
Stop playing the innocent victim. You and others on here are just as nasty as any of the “liberals” who post. Neocon and js are the worst but you and Former Marine are close seconds. The very fact you are asking others to pity those who don’t agree with you and argue with you demonstrates a smug superiority that is a far greater flaw than the mere rudeness you complain of.
Lastly,
It is the lack of argument and reason coupled with the smug assuredness in your views that provides the entertianment factor to this site. Don’t take this post as a demand you cease such behavior. How else would I unwind after a hard day?
Also, Jeremiah why can’t you accept that some of us simply don’t want to be a part of your religion and we have grown weary listening to your sermons? We want you to leave us alone. Let us worry about our souls.
5. Dennis | June 24th, 2008 at 4:11 am
“Those who come to hate” seems an apt description of those who pick apart the characters of decent public servants like Barack Obama and incite slander against them. Calling him a “slick talking con artist”, conjuring guilt by association etc. may lack imagination but it certainly fits a generic category - if not telling anecdotes of notorious sinners, at least trying to conjure notoriety of one ordinary sinner.
You speak of “the really nasty comment” and patronizingly of “the poor wretches.” It never ceases to amaze me, Mark, how you fail to see the accusations and inferences you make against others comes home to rest squarely on your own head. You flatter yourself for your own “good deeds” but fail to regard your slanders and invective as the polar opposite of everything you claim to champion.
It would be well for you to speak particular well-documented facts with objectivity and cease your characterizations. The at least you might be regarded as a reporter. As it stands now you are merely acting as one of Screwtape’s minions, as an aspiring Wormwood.
6. bagni | June 24th, 2008 at 8:23 am
markservation:
the planetary ones pray for you
so that you can find consistency in your earthly life
7. Zooey | June 24th, 2008 at 8:28 am
What a load of H.S.
Pile it on Noonan.
8. neocon | June 24th, 2008 at 9:11 am
To further prove Marks assertion, I submit the following litany of bile courtesy of the the Pitchfork. And I encourage all conservatives at b4v to start posting on this juvenile site. They have an orchestrated effort to seize this website, I say we return the favor. Let me know and I will send you the link. Let the games begin:
I’m in the middle of making myself an even greater persona non grata at Blogs for Victory. I’m ranting there because the system will let me post. (Expletive deleted) Mark Noonan and his smary Catholic (Expletive deleted). i have no respect for a man that thinks he can tell other people how to pray and what to do because he “found religion” later in life. His kind of (Expletive deleted) is the worst kind of (Expletive deleted) because they think saving their own Soul isn’t ever enough. They have to force their (Expletive deleted) of scripture down every throat that comes walking by. To him I will say here “Hey (Expletive deleted), how come you can’t get priests to stop (Expletive deleted) children?” Note the latest scandal in Richmond, VA as an example a sixteen year old girl from Guatemala in foster care had to get an abortion to cover up that she was (Expletive deleted).
Now of course the Catholic League is never going to admit this but the Council of Bishops knew about the birth control they placed inside a 15 year old and they knew about the abortion in JANUARY! Does this sound like one of those crazy Oabam screed things? You (Expletive deleted) bet. I’m doing this to make a point. You keep (Expletive deleted) with my man and I will burn your little religious money swap business to the ground one keystroke at a time. I promise you will wake up to daily reminders of preist abuse Catholic Church theft SBC shenannigans and other things so embarassing I will have had to have made them up and they will travel around the world twice at Internet speed before the truth can put its shoes on to paraphrase Mr Twain.
9. Zach | June 24th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
“cock of scripture”
That sure is intellectual..
You start to get the sense of the people that post here. Its very telling that there are quite a few people here that all know each other and seem to get each others back when debate ensures.
I come here from mid-western Indiana not knowing anyone, just trying to get an idea of other politcal views, and anymore this blog has become host to a group of starbucks regulars that constantly monday morning quarter on every issue.
10. BARRASSO | June 24th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
This post is made without the slightest hint of hypocrisy right after a post that was a content free hateful slur against liberals. Stay classy.
11. FmrMarine | June 24th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
dennis;
ONCE AGAIN…….The man b. Hussein put him self in the lime light by running for the presidency.
NOBODY…….NOBODY…bothered about the Afrocentric racist, cult be belonged while he was a US Senator.
NOBODY bothered about his sleazy friendship with tony rezco.
NOBODY bothered about some crooked financial dealings
Nobody bothered about his wifes racist papers while attending college on a grant
NOBODY gave a whit if he was a muslem/ex muslem
NOBODY cared if he and his church were in league with racist groups like the nation of islam
UNTIL…….he decided to run for the Presidency of the US……….THEN people BETTER CARE about all the above things.
It is called being vetted……….cant take the heat….you know the rest!
12. Mark Noonan | June 25th, 2008 at 12:58 am
neocon,
It seems that our friends over at the Daily Pitchfork have a great deal of anger towards me - which means I’m on the right track. I note this part of your quote:
Might be a Fruedian slip, but I don’t think so - I believe that a bit of the truth was desperately trying to break through the mountain of hatred and the author didn’t even realise that he (or she) was saying that he will lie and spread said lies around the ‘net just to get at me and the Catholic Church. What they don’t understand is that they cannot do anything which will make me hate them - and even making me angry is getting harder and harder for them the further I walk with Our Lord; I love them, I pray for them and I pity them - life could be so much more for them if they’d only come to realise that their current way of life is really just a living death, and a rehearsal for the emptiness and pain of damnation, should they carry it on long enough. I choose that quote from C S Lewis with care as it neatly encapsulates what they are really all about - spreading the misery.
But the real point, once again, is about us - we who don’t hate or, at least, we who strive not to hate. What they want (or, more accurately, what they think they want which is really just the urgings of the Enemy) is for us to respond in kind to them, so that they can feel confirmed that we are wicked, too, and thus not worth listening to. In this our brothers Jeremiah and others need, I think, to pay close attention - we cannot win these people by argument; their minds are too closed…we can only, at best, break slowly into their hearts by directing nothing but love at them (and I mean on a personal level - on the level of political discourse, we can still have at it, hammer and tongs).
Those insults directed at me in your quote I forgive entirely - the author owes me nothing, not even the mildest and most grudging apology. For my part, it is as if they didn’t exist. I will not respond in kind - I will, on the other hand, urge the author to have that slight bit of courage which will be necessary to step out of their misery…and that slight bit of courage is to first admit that there is something greater than one’s self.
13. Tractatus | June 25th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
we who don’t hate
I was going to ask if you honestly believe this, but I know that the answer is that you do. But I also know that in order for this work out, you have to redefine “hate” such that its application is entirely dependent upon politics:
Left criticizing Right = pure hatred, no matter what
Right criticizing Left = truth-telling, being tough, but never hate
Obviously, these definitions don’t hold sway in the real world–and neither do your arguments that revolve around them–but it is interesting to note how you go about quieting your cognitive dissonance.
14. kmg | June 25th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
Mark,
It is hard to take you seriously on this topic when you continue to support the racist and bigot, Jeremiah.
15. Mark Noonan | June 26th, 2008 at 2:16 am
kmg,
I will dispute your characterisation of Jeremiah, but even if he were as you say, that he comments here is no indication of support on my part for any particular view of his. Unless, that is, you want to say that because you comment here I must therefor agree with you?
I’m not as free an easy in my judgements as I used to be, and as you are - Jeremiah is wrong about how we should treat homosexuals, wrong about inter-racial marriage and wrong about whether the face we turn towards our opponents should be one of wrath or love - and, for all I know, he’s wrong about 100 other things. But he hasn’t made a racist statement (ie, something along the lines of “X people are inherently inferior”), he doesn’t use obscenity and he tends to stay on topic (though he’s strayed from that from time to time, and his comments have been removed accordingly).
I know a lot of our liberal friends claim we censor - we don’t; not in the sense that they mean. To them, “censor” means any interference with anyone saying whatever they want, wherever they want - actually, what we do is enforce our rules about staying on topic, not being grossly insulting and not using obscenities. We’re here to debate issues and if we are to debate in any rational fashion, there must be some ground rules lest the conversation just become an unintellible shouting match (which, it is my opinion, some of our leftwing commenters actually desire, because it makes this site odious for some to come to at all). Jeremiah obeys the ground rules, and thus he’s pretty much free to say whatever he wants and if you don’t like it, you are free to tell him so; I’ve told him so on several occaisions, and yet we still are at peace with each other and there’s no rancor in my heart towards him because he believes differently from me on this or that issue.