35 Comments

• 1. The New Conservative  |  June 27th, 2008 at 2:52 pm

  Obama wants to take defeat out of the jaws of victory.
  http://www.thenewconservatives.blogspot.com/

• 2. OhioOrrin  |  June 27th, 2008 at 2:58 pm

  meanwhile there’s this REAL concern re our extended involvement in “foreign entanglements” (oops-sorry, that’s the libertarian wing):

  Military facing $100B in repairs

  By Tom Vanden Brook - USA Today
  Posted : Friday Jun 27, 2008 6:31:12 EDT

  WASHINGTON — The Pentagon faces a more than $100 billion bill to repair and replace worn-out or destroyed equipment, vehicles and weapons, officials and members of Congress say, but paying for it may endanger plans to boost the size of the military.

  http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/06/gns_repairs_062608/

  several related items:

  1) I’m a proud Gulf1 vet before u trash me.
  2) Forget Murtha jumping on this & remember the main point…& who gets 2 pay 4 that.
  3) It is true thethe Guard & Reserve units are being stripped of equip before returning stateside BUT this funding is only 4 the active branches…so, guess who gets 2 pay 4 to re-equip the Guard n Reserve.

• 3. David B. Schmidt  |  June 27th, 2008 at 3:44 pm

  Well Orin, might as well get slammed with you as I was considered a Gulf1 callback from IRR but you all won before I shipped. Have a few other expeditions that are not well known outside of the military previous to that. Anyway.

  The tax payers always get soaked for everything and everyone with two firing synapses (outside of autonomous functions) realizes that, but it isn’t that much more $$$ than rebuilding after Pres. Clinton or Pres. Carter. Hell, Clinton scuttled over half the Navy fleet.

  The last thing we need now is to pull out prematurely and have the Cambodian Killing fields part duex. Sen. Obama has a slick line but no understanding , nor a plan, other than “Turn Around. Run Like hell.” With Obama being non-military–I don’t think he knows what “About face. Double time” is…let alone a retrograde action.

  He is where I earn my slam. Compare the total cost of the military to discretionary expenditures including SS, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. I don’t want to take the benefits away unless they are not deserved (fraudulent, etc.) and if the country (oh, no privatization) followed the good folks of Galveston, Texas in 1980 (which opted out of Social Security for the private sector) — we, as a country, would not be in that SS bind at least. If they won’t let us drill, drill, drill — then audit, audit, audit–every case in every department.

  Following that or since we are America, at the same time we dismantle the Dept. of Education, break the Unions and put that under local (city / state) control. Pay the teachers a fair wage and have year round schools. Fire the incompetent and promote the best–hmmm, just like corporations do. No tenure.

  Basically, I could go on and on about wasteful spending including the military (but them $600 toilet seats were sooo comfortable); however, the government should be reduced to two major functions–protecting the US of A (including those that disagree with me), and minimal oversight like selecting Constitutional judges for the SCOTUS. Everything else the government touches (to put it kindly) has the reverse Midas touch.

• 4. Smelly Cat  |  June 27th, 2008 at 4:18 pm

  Foreign Events Forecast If Obama Wins
  Things to count on if Obama Wins.
  -A preemptive strike on Iran by Israel prior to his inauguration.
  -Higher world wide food prices as he pushes for renewable energy
  -Coalition of The Willing troops withdrawing rapidly from Iraq & Afghanistan ahead of his promised cut and run.
  -Weakening of NAFTA
  -An illegal alien influx into America given his stated policy to not send back the 12,000,000 illegal’s here.

• 5. Whoo Boy  |  June 27th, 2008 at 4:44 pm

  Barack Obamas Idea To Withdraw Troops Has Been Proven Wrong.
  That alone should be quite telling to Americans. I just can’t understand my friends who are still so damned enamored with him. Is this how good Germans felt when Hitler was poised to win his election?

• 6. JustAnotherTaxpayer  |  June 27th, 2008 at 5:06 pm

  Barack Obamas idea to withdraw troops has nothing to do with military strategy. It has do with our failing economy, and if you guys love Iraq so much, go live there.
  Or at the very least, let the likes of us who don’t like paying for the mistakes of the Iraqis, or the mistakes of the poor, or the mistakes of the Bush financial elite, out of being forced to pay for your most expensive single program, Iraq, and pay for it your selves. Since it’s been an investment that has proven to have such an excellent return, you will all grow rich off your stake in the Iraqi welfare program while laughing at the rest of us who were foolish enough not to invest.
  If you think paying into the Iraqi welfare program will save lost jobs, home equity, and even foreclosed homes, prove it to the American public, and Lieberman will be saved.
  If you can’t, then don’t expect Americans to believe that any terrorist can do more damage to this country than the Bush financial elite has done.
  Have a nice day!!

  Two thirds of Americans would be grateful.

• 7. Mark Noonan  |  June 27th, 2008 at 5:22 pm

  JAT,

  What a selfish, narrow-minded world you live in…

• 8. Mark Noonan  |  June 27th, 2008 at 5:24 pm

  Ohio,

  And I’m sure the military already has plans in place to repair/replace that equipment…Army TImes is run by an anti-Bush publisher and thus picks out everything it can to “prove” Bush wrong…they’ve now been reduced to complaing that in war time equipment gets expended and you have to replace it…

• 9. William Teach  |  June 27th, 2008 at 6:01 pm

  Any of the Port-siders care to comment on St. Obama? Or just deflect to Bush?

  It comes down to Obama, who was wrong on the Surge, and keeps calling for retreat and defeat, vs. John McCain, who was calling for the Surge and ultimate victory well before the Surge was announced.

  I know who I will trust to be in charge of America’s military and foreign policy.

• 10. kmg  |  June 27th, 2008 at 6:33 pm

  Mark,

  Your first quote was from a news article. Your second quote was from an op-ed written by one of the architects of the surge. O’Hanlon’s opinion hardly qualifies as evidence of success.

• 11. JustAnotherTaxpayer  |  June 27th, 2008 at 6:42 pm

  Mr. Noonan,

  Name the mistakes of one person other than your self I have advocated you paying for. I ask again, sir, because, like Reagan I paid for this mike.
  Why do I have to pay for the mistakes of the Iraqis?
  McCain suggested that there be a gas tax holiday. Let’s add to that an Iraqi welfare holiday program. Throw in any other welfare program you can think of. I’m sure it’d prove very popular.
  I’m genuinley sorry the military history you think is being made there has been transformed by events into something more difficult for you to deal with, economic reality. Long lasting wars unfortantley, except for Homer, touch more of us with the financial mess left behind by those who started them not knowing what they were doing, than the stories of heroism you suggest we accept in their place now that our homes and livleyhoods are in jeoperdy
  But that is reality. Just as if the insuregency had been put down after a few months, and Iraq was giving aid to us to help us out with our problems, right now Bush would be a hero, and the Iraqis allies.
  Right now, Bush is a few years, and a few trillion dollars short, and the Iraqis are no better then the worst welfare queen you and your socialist conservatives could conjure up as answer to welfare CEO’s whove left our economy in ruins, shattered milions of lives in their wake, and then walk away with milions for their failures.
  What do you expect people to do, Mr. Noonan? Blithely accept the demolishing of their lives. This wasn’t supposed to happen according to Bush.
  Lower taxes, pay for the Iraqi welfare program, or at least the interest so the Chinese can make some money off this too as they get busy becoming the worlds #1 superpower, and go shop, and everything wil be alright.
  It hasn’t turned out that way, Mr. Noonan.
  Not even close.
  By the way, you’re so eager to pay for the Iraqi welfare program because it’s an investment that has such a fine return, you can pay for it.
  Maybe you’ll get rich. But I doubt it.
  So please, stop telling me I have to pay for the mistakes of others, and I’ll stop reminding you why I, and my like minded citizens, should not have to.
  Have a nice day!!

• 12. William Teach  |  June 27th, 2008 at 6:53 pm

  I don’t want to pay for the federal welfare program, Taxpayer. Nor the idiotic Dept. of “Education.” Nor for people whose homes were wiped out because THEY chose to live in a hurricane zone. And many other things. Yet, we must.

  Fools like you would probably have decried the expense for the American Revolution as “not worth it.”

  BTW, most of the folks in your party voted for Operation Iraqi Freedom. Bill Clinton signed the Iraqi Liberation Act, which required regime change. Most of the Dems said Saddam had WMD.

  Sorry for the facts.

• 13. JustAnotherTaxpayer  |  June 27th, 2008 at 7:49 pm

  William Teach,

  Blackbeard? Interesting? What is the genesis of the name?
  In any case, thank you for acknowledging that I ask you to pay for no ones mistakes except your own. And the issue here is, if you don’t want to be a drafted investor in Halliburton or Houghton Mifflin(Text Publisher), why should you be? The federal system needs to be restored.
  As to the point my post makes about the transformation from Iraq from a military issue to an economic issue, that can’t be denied much as some out there may want it to be.
  As a national security issue, victory too late or too expensive is phyrric, meaningless. Our leaders, by forcing us to expend the resources we have, and focusing our attention on military matters to the exclusion of economic ones have done greater damage to our country than the terrorists could ever hope to. And the terrorists know it. They watch the stock market, too. Bin Laden was worth 350 million.
  Why should Lybia send terrorists after us when they can do more damage by sending word they may cut oil production to force us to unfreeze assets left over from Libyas days as a terrorist sponsor. Have the North Koreans realized there is no market for their weapons because the terrorists don’t need them.
  If we are winning, then let’s declare victory and come home. One of the reasons domestic welfare hasn’t been addressed here is because of the Iraqi welfare program.
  If people want welfare at home to end, its got to end abroad, and it got to end for CEO’s
  who’ve destroyed our economy.
  All the welfare has to end. People have to learn to pay there own way, and pull their own weight, and accept the consequenses of their actions.
  Till we get some real conservatives who understand that, and can see how the federal system can be used to help people see the virtue in that, we are going to continue to be pulled between secular and religious liberals.
  We are a second rate power, Chinas holding a repo note on much of the US, and the world laughing at us.
  How much do we have to lose before we wake up and hear it?

• 14. JustAnotherTaxpayer  |  June 27th, 2008 at 7:59 pm

  The Iraqi welfare program is not, Mr. Teach, the American revolution. As far as it being paid for, the Dutch who were lokking to get at the Brits fopr shoving them out of New York and other holdings in North America, put up 10 milion dollars. A tidy sum in those days, thanks in no small part to the negotiating acumen of John Adams.
  As Adams worked in Holland, so Franklin and Jefferson worked in France to get there cooperation which paid off so handsomly at the battle of Yorktown, when the French were kind enough to bottle Cornwallis fleet in the harbour.
  It would be nice if we could get other investors to put their money into the Iraqi welfare program. Unfortunatley, they don’t think it’s worth it.
  In the absence of other investors, sir, and the Iraqis own unwllingnes to expend a single cent, or drop of oil, on this themselves, I don’t see why I should be forced to either.
  PS If you, and your ilk, Mr. Teach, wish to bankrupt your selves paying for the Iraqi welfare program, please do.
  Have a nice day!!

• 15. neocon  |  June 27th, 2008 at 9:07 pm

  “The Iraqi Welfare Program” - JAT

  A very condescending, snide remark aimed at the Iraqi people whom JAT obviously has contempt and disdain for. Ironic how he also supports improving our world image, but I am not sure how abandoning 27 million people in the ME, who are in the process of building a democracy, might accomplish that.

  I say we release JAT and his ilk of the obligation for paying for the Iraqis welfare, in exchange for allowing the conservatives to opt out of paying for Americans welfare.

  They keep telling us illegal immigrants do the jobs Americans wont. I say let’s make sure the currently unemployed Americans fill those positions, and we’ll instead redirect their welfare money towards Iraq.

  I’ll bet we get a better return.

  Have a nice day
  peace, neocon

• 16. William Teach  |  June 27th, 2008 at 9:16 pm

  Welcome to the wonderful world of the Federal Government, Taxpayer!

• 17. JustAnotherTaxpayer  |  June 27th, 2008 at 10:02 pm

  Neocon,

  Thank you for no longer advocating I pay for the Iraqi welfare program.

  But why does my advocacy for opting out of making interest payments to the Chinese on the debt Bush has created to pay for the Iraqi welfare program, necessarily mean I want anybody to pay
  for any welfare program, foreign or domestic.
  Neocon, if the Iraqi welfare program isn’t, then please tell me what return we have recieved on our investment.
  If the Iraqis refuse to help shoulder the burden
  of the cost of the program over there, whatever you call it, how is the program to be described as anything other than welfare. In addition to the ingratitude the Iraqis demonstrate for the sacrifices we have making them look like just another welfare case, albeit on a breathtaking scale. Perhaps they are more akin to the welfare CEO’s who’ve destroyed our economy, and walked away with milions for their failures.
  They are making money hand over fist with an oil production smaller than under Saddam days.
  They stand to make even more as oil goes up in price. You’d think someone over there would be able to figure out how to split it so your ilk can declare victory, and come home.

• 18. JustAnotherTaxpayer  |  June 27th, 2008 at 10:03 pm

  Have a nice day!!

• 19. neocon  |  June 27th, 2008 at 10:43 pm

  JAT,

  - First of all, Japan is the largest holder of T notes, so I think we should pay back their investment first.

  - I think we’ve received about as much from the Iraqi welfare program as we have received from the American welfare program.

  - We spend nearly 360 billion a year on the American welfare program. Considering that scale, Iraq has only made a small dent.

  - Annual crude oil production now in Iraq exceeds that of the production under Saddam for all but just 4 years of Saddams rule.

  - For once I’d like just one liberal to actually figure out why gas prices are so high. I don’t think they have it in them.

  - And finally you never did tell me how you plan on repairing our world image by abandoning 27,000,000 of our global neighbors.

  have a nice day
  peace, neocon

• 20. JustAnotherTaxpayer  |  June 27th, 2008 at 11:39 pm

  Neocon,
  One thing at a time. Each item on your post is worth examining by itself. Let’s start with bullet 2.
  Are you saying that return on investment for the Iraqi welafare program is the same as the domestic welfare program?
  If so, why pay into either?
  Have 4000 soldiers been kiled trying to work out domestic welfare programs?
  Look forward to your response.

• 21. kjstrouble  |  June 28th, 2008 at 12:28 am

  Actually JAT, I believe Neo is saying that we have gotten the same return, not paid the same. Reading comprehension is very important here.

  Now, how about answering the rest in order? Or are you just going to pick and choose the items you have the kos talking points for?

• 22. Mark Noonan  |  June 28th, 2008 at 2:09 am

  JAT,

  Because human beings care for each other - that you wish to recuse yourself from the human race doesn’t change the facts.

• 23. JustAnotherTaxpayer  |  June 28th, 2008 at 3:03 am

  kjstrouble

  KOS talking points? Pay your own way. Pull your own weight.

  Let the market take care of the people who got themselves in over their head on mortgages.
  Not forcing middle class folks to pay for the mistakes that poor people make that keep them poor.

  If you think those are KOS talking points, your the one who has trouble with reading comprehension.

  As far as what neocon said, however you define the “return” on investment, he plainly wrote that the return on both programs was the same.
  Are you saying kj that neo believes there’s something good about American welfare? Are you saying there’s something good about American welfare?
  Now, that’s a daily KOS talking point.
  Have a nice day.

• 24. JustAnotherTaxpayer  |  June 28th, 2008 at 3:23 am

  Mr. Noonan,

  Because human beings care for each other, what do you mean by that?
  How are you, by advocating drafting me as an investor in the Iraqi welfare program, any better or different than a daily KOSer advocating drafting you as an investor in the American welfare program.
  Your and the daily KOSers are all liberals, forcing people to pay for welfare of others without hope of any kind of return.
  Whether religious or secular, liberals are al the same.
  As far as concern for my fellow human beings, I prefer, Mr. Noonan, however much it may be their fault they are in the situation they are in, to see what I can do for my countrymen.
  How does the Iraqi welfare program help anyone except Bush?
  Does it even help the Iraqis who, as long as we are around, seem to be able to avoid having to make any decisions about how to deal with each other while we pay the freight.
  Isn’t this the worst of welfare as we see it in America? Keeping people dependent upon the govt?

• 25. Rana Quijotesca  |  June 28th, 2008 at 1:53 pm

  Tangentally related… any thoughts on the GI Bill that just passed overwhelmingly in the senate? 92-6 was the vote I think… and McCain wasn’t there (Obama was)…

• 26. neocon  |  June 28th, 2008 at 2:14 pm

  Rana,

  We all know that McCain doesn’t care about our uniformed personnel, right?

  He only served for 23 years, was held POW for 7 years and comes from a family with a history of service.

  But you embarrassingly assert that his absence on the vote demonstrates his lack of concern towards those GI’s, and Obamas presence solidifies his, despite the absence of any service on the part of Obama.

  Care to reconsider that, or should we all just consider you a complete partisan buffoon from now on?

  peace, neocon

• 27. Tractatus  |  June 28th, 2008 at 2:48 pm

  Not only was McCain not there, he actively worked against passage of the bill.

  But McCain served and Obama didn’t, therefore McCain is really the one who cares about the troops no matter what the two of them actually do (Obama supporting the passage of a troop support bill McCain worked against, for example) according to the feeble mind of neocon.

• 28. Rana Quijotesca  |  June 28th, 2008 at 2:53 pm

  ummmm… You read the comment I wrote… right? I said that the GI Bill passed, McCain wasn’t there, and Obama was there. Those are all factually correct statements… But, because you are a partisan hack, you assume that I somehow interjected opinion into it…

  Since we’re talking about political hackery… let’s talk about McCain’s “support” of the bill… first, he opposed the bill… now, he’s trying to claim he supported it when he wasn’t there for the vote… explain that one…

• 29. neocon  |  June 28th, 2008 at 3:12 pm

  Rana,

  um……your post #28 confirms my belief that you are indeed a partisan buffoon.

  To opine that McCain has anything but the best intentions for the military at heart is too demonstrate an ignorance seldom scene.

  And if you’d like to get into political hackery, I can begin to list the litany of absurd Obama comments and flip flops.

  But why digress. I have no doubt it will become more and more evident to the voting public how inexperienced and naive Obama is and will they will ultimately choose the man that they have known for years and trust to lead this nation: McCain.

  Your desperate attempts to paint it any other way is just, well………..desperate.

  I guarantee a McCain win.

  have a nice day
  peace, neocon

• 30. Rana Quijotesca  |  June 28th, 2008 at 3:48 pm

  ummm… I said what McCain did… how is that desperate?

• 31. JustAnotherTaxpayer  |  June 29th, 2008 at 1:03 am

  Mr. Noonan, kjstrouble, neocon

  Thank you for agreeing with me that being a drafted investor in the Iraqi welfare program brings no more of a return than being a drafted investor in the domestic welfare program.

  Have a nice day!

• 32. OpChaosUK  |  June 29th, 2008 at 5:32 am

  92-6 was the vote I think…

  And 93-6 would’ve been what, more overwhelming? It’s easy for the libbies in Congress to vote on such “military” issues as the GI Bill–it shows they really “care…”

• 33. neocon  |  June 29th, 2008 at 10:07 am

  JAT,

  So that begs the question JAT. Why do you want to cut off the Iraqis and not the Americans? And how will that further improve our global image?

  have a splendid day
  peace, neocon

• 34. JustAnotherTaxpayer  |  June 29th, 2008 at 2:43 pm

  Neocon,

  Will continue discussion of your post #19, bullet by bullet on the older posts section, once this has post has sundowned, if you like.
  I appreciate you noting that I would like to cut funding for the Iraqi welfare program, while then do what I could for my fellow countrymen.
  That does not include, however, drafted investor status (Taxpayer) for programs with no return on them like welfare programs.
  More later.
  Look forward to your response.

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