Is There a Flip Obama Hasn’t Flopped On?
July 13th, 2008 at 12:11am Mark Noonan
Geesh:
Today, Obama Told CNN He Supports The Death Penalty For Osama Bin Laden:
In A CNN Interview, Obama Says He Supports The Death Penalty For Osama Bin Laden. “In an interview with CNN, the Senator says he’s no ‘cheerleader for the death penalty,’ but ‘I think plotting and engineering the death of 3,000 Americans justifies such an approach.’” (Mark Halperin, “Obama: Death Penalty For Bin Laden,” Time’s “The Page” Blog, thepage.time.com, 7/11/08)
In June, Obama Said That If Bin Laden Were Captured, He Would Not Make Him A “Martyr“:
Obama: “I think what would be important would be for us to deal with him in a way that allows the entire world to understand the murderous acts that he’s engaged in and not to make him into a martyr.” (Caren Bohan, “Obama: U.S. Should Avoid Making Bin Laden A Martyr,” Reuters, 6/18/08)
Its getting harder and harder to find a position Obama hasn’t betrayed yet. This is the guy the left wants as President? A man who can’t hold to a position for even a month? What happens, dear lefties, when its time to push that universal health care plan and he runs up against GOP opposition? Has he given you any indication that he won’t surrender?
Entry Filed under: Campaign 2008, Corruption, Democrats, War on Terror
50 Comments
1. bongoman | July 13th, 2008 at 2:29 am
Ummm…whereabouts on the 18 June did Obama say that he would not impose the death penalty?
My reading of Obama’s June comments is that he would be brought to justice rather than killed in the field, the latter course of action more likely to make him a martyr.
He suggested a trial in which all Osama’s murderous acts would be fully aired, along the lines of Nuremberg.
Now of course, the main Nuremberg defendants were hanged. Sounds like the death penalty to me.
So how do you read Obama’s June comments as indicating he was opposed to the death penalty for Osama?
It seems to me that Obama was saying that if Osama was brought to trial and subsequently hanged he would be less likely to be seen as a martyr than if he was killed in the field. That due process would be followed for all the world to see as opposed to an arbitrary execution.
Now whether you agree that Osama would be less likely to be seen as a martyr if he was put on trial first is debatable.
But to suggest that this represents a change of mind by Obama is more of an indication of your inability to think straight.
By all means debate whether Osama should be put on trial or not. But your desperate need to attack and impugn Obama for things he hasn’t even said is pathetic.
2. \'08ama | July 13th, 2008 at 3:48 am
Obama’s got no chance to be the flip-flopper of the 2008 campaign. John McSame has that market well cornered.
3. Timothy Horrigan | July 13th, 2008 at 11:18 am
I am not sure why you are so eager to label Obama as a flipflopper when you didn’t like him the way he before he (supposedly) flipped. And especially not since tomorrow you will go back to complaining about how far to the left and totally out of touch with reality he is.
4. Toothpick | July 13th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Hilarious Noonan, absolutely hilarious.
Funny stuff. First chuckle of the day.
Thanks.
5. TampaBayRayz-4-evah-don't-mess | July 13th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
Obama and McCain aren’t running for sainthood. They’re running for the presidency of the USA. “Flip-flopping” is an essential tool in the pursuit of the presidency. Both have bounced around on a lot of issues.
6. Jeremiah | July 13th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Obama and J. Wright puts me in the mind of Sanford and Son….
LOL….’You big dummy.’
7. yekepyt | July 13th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
Mark, you are embarrassing yourself.
For the record: Obama never stated that he opposed the death penalty for bin Laden. Mark made that part up all by himself.
8. Ricorun | July 13th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
Let’s hope Osama is captured in bed with an unwilling child. That would be a 2-fer.
9. Mark Noonan | July 13th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Bongo,
While there are a lot of things which can go into being a martyr the universal for that state of being is to be dead - you have to be killed to be a martyr. When Obama said he didn’t want to make a martyr out of bin Laden, he was saying that he didn’t want to kill him…unless you want to say that a college graduate doesn’t know what “martyr” means…
10. Ricorun | July 13th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Mark: While there are a lot of things which can go into being a martyr the universal for that state of being is to be dead - you have to be killed to be a martyr. When Obama said he didn’t want to make a martyr out of bin Laden, he was saying that he didn’t want to kill him…
You reversed the logic, Mark — while all martyrs are dead, not all those who die are considered martyrs.
Think of it this way:
Set A contains all marbles.
Set B contains all blue marbles.
B is a subset of A, but A is not a subset of B.
I suspect that while it may help, you don’t have to be a college graduate to understand the difference.
11. neocon | July 13th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
And being a martyr is a lot like having marbles, what with all the subsets and all.
It’s a shame liberals don’t see the nuances of Christianity they way they do Islam. They are obviously much more familiar with Islam than they are the religion that 80% of their neighbors believe in. Doesn’t that strike you as odd?
merci beaucoup
peace, neocon
12. Toothpick | July 13th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
Deleted - mindless insults.
13. Mark Noonan | July 13th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
Ricorun,
Errrmmmm…no. While all dead people are not martyrs, all martyrs are dead and so if Obama didn’t want to make a martyr out of Osama, it means he didn’t want Osama dead.
14. cam | July 13th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
Mark,
Once again, Obama did not say he did not want Osama dead. To be a martyr one must be killed for their beliefs. If a trial was held that clearly laid out the case agianst bin Laden then, at least from a Western perpective of justice, bin Laden could be given the death penalty without it appearing that he was killed for his beliefs alone. Even if you disagree with Obama and feel that bin Laden should be summarily executed as soon as he is captured then just say so. If you prefer to move away from rights of prisoners of war and kill them without a trial, like the insurgents in Iraq do, then go ahead and say so. If you believe the rule of the jungle, then just say so. But don’t try to put words in Obama’s mouth.
15. Mark Noonan | July 13th, 2008 at 6:36 pm
Cam,
Nice try, but no dice…look, you can spin it all you want, but Obama clearly indicated - to anyone who thinks - that he didn’t want bin Laden dead…and now he’s saying he does.
16. neocon | July 13th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
cam,
I am sure that the “insurgents” and other elements of AQ would pause and reflect on the fact that since UBL was afforded habeus corpus and a fair trail, his conviction and eventual execution was not because of his beliefs, but simply the verdict rendered.
WTF???????????
thanks for playing
danka shein
neocon
17. Tractatus | July 13th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
While all dead people are not martyrs, are martyrs are dead and so if Obama didn’t want to make a martyr out of Osama, it means he didn’t want Osama dead.
Somebody never took–or, at best, flunked–logic 101.
Ricorun was dead-on in comment #10. Aren’t you always complaining about people trying to read into right-wing statements meanings that aren’t there, Noonan? Now would be a good time to heed your own words.
18. cam | July 13th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
Neocon,
So you disagree with Obama. That is not a supprise. But this does not prove that Obama changed his position on OBL.
I’m not sure a trial would convince the most extreme insurgents and terrorists living in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia or Iraq. But I don’t think we should sink to the lowest denominator. We should always strive to be the beacon of freedom defined by our founding fathers.
What is more important is that our friends and allies still see us as a beacon of freedom. It is our allies who will be important as the balnce of world power changes and countries like China become the biggest challenge to our sepramacy on the world stage. It is China with a population of about 1.3 billion of which only 300 milllion drive cars, that will pose the biggest threat to our way of life. What happens when the majority of Chinese start to drive crs? What will happen in a decade or two or maybe less when the Chinese need as much or more energy then we currently use? Who will be with us then?
Mark,
Where did Obama say he didn’t want UBL dead? Or are you still equating dead and martyr. If that is the case, there is nothing hat can be said, regardless how logical, that can help you.
19. neocon | July 13th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
cam,
I am just seasoned enough to remember those same remarks made about Russia & Japan years ago, and it never materialized. While possessing a burgeoning economy, credited to capitalism, China will never match power the America has.
Personally, I think the best due process would be to hand him over to the Iraqi’s. They did a great job with Saddam.
peace, neocon
20. Mark Noonan | July 13th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
cam,
Please bring me the biography of a person who was alive after being martyred.
Geesh, you lefties are getting more absurd by the day…
21. Mark Noonan | July 13th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
Tract,
I’m not reading anything in to Obama’s statement - he said he didn’t want to make a martyr out of bin Laden and to anyone with a cursory familiarity with English, that means he didn’t want him dead. Only someone who has long gone into the Orwellian world of the left (you, for instance) can bald faced contend that the Obama’s clear and distinct statement is murky.
22. Casper | July 13th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
“Personally, I think the best due process would be to hand him over to the Iraqi’s.”
Why? He never attacked Iraq.
No, I agree with cam. We give him a trial. Let the relatives of the victims of 9-11 and his other terrorist acts testify and then given the justice he deserves. It would show the world that we are a nation of laws and that we are better than him and his kind.
23. Casper | July 13th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
Mark,
Shooting bin Laden in the field makes him a martyr. Bringing him to trial and making him face the victims of his actions makes him a criminal. There is a difference whether you want to admit it or not.
But hey, I do understand what you are doing. You have a candidate who has a major record in flip flopping. Your only hope in deflecting criticism from his record is to make it look like Obama is just as bad, and the best way to do that, is to accuse him of flip flopping regardless of how ridiculous the charges are.
Now I admit he has done a couple of flip flops (the FISA bill comes to mind), but this and many of his other positions are not flip flops.
Now you could prove me wrong. Find me a quote where he specifically says bin Laden shouldn’t die. Otherwise you are just being dishonest.
24. Mark Noonan | July 13th, 2008 at 8:52 pm
Casper,
Well, no - you see, I’m not quite that stupid. Though, I guess, you can contend that Obama is, if you like. The enemy would view any sentence of death by the United States as a martyrdom - you know this, I know this and Obama better darn well know this. But I guess there is just that chance that Obama thinks the enemy respects our Constitution…
25. cam | July 13th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
Neocon,
There is a difference between Japan and China - about 1.2 billion people. Ultimately, the United States is superior to other countries that do not allow the same amount of freedom and that includes Japan, who practices a form of groupthink. Further, Japan, since WWII has not invested much in military power. The same cannot be said for China whose armed forces are growing at a fast pace and because of the number of people will likely have a superior armed force.
Regarding the former Soviet Union, while it may have had superior armed forces at least on the surface, it had no way of maintaining them. Ultimately, it was the collapse of its economy that led to its downfall. There is no indication that China is at all comparable in this way.
If you think that China will eventually go the way of Japan or the Soviet Union and we can ignore our relations with our allies, I don’t think you understand the nature of the challenge. Ultimately, it is complacency that leads to the downfall of great societies. The attitude that we can do it on our own, the rest of the world be damned, is a form of complacency.
The problem here is that, because of our energy demand and the growing energy demand of countries like China, we are on a collision course that will lead to conflicts that will require more than a knee jerk reaction to bomb our way out of conflict. Because we will be forced to rely on our ability to communicate and negotiate it will be important to be in good standing with the rest of the world.
26. neocon | July 13th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
cam,
China has 25%, at best, of the military power America has and our investments in China dwarf those of their investments in America.
Couple that with their desire to remain communist rule and they will be a consideration but will never equal out strentghs and capabilities.
That’s just a fact. Don’t believe your far left handlers who have been rooting for Americas downfall for quite sometime now.
Mark,
I sympathize with you. How our resident liberals are “re-defining” martyrdom is hysterical.
peace, neocon
27. Casper | July 13th, 2008 at 9:11 pm
Mark,
Depends on who you think the enemy is. Of course the hard core jihadists are going to declare bin Laden a martyr regardless of how he dies. But a fair trial might open the eyes of many others in the world. How we treat our enemies says a lot about us as a people. Washington and our other founding fathers knew this. That’s why Washington always demanded that those we captured be treated with respect, even if our enemies didn’t do the same with our people. It would give us a chance to show we are better than the other guys.
28. neocon | July 13th, 2008 at 9:13 pm
I think calling UBL a criminal is offensive to criminals.
I want to cut his nuts off
peace, neocon
29. neocon | July 13th, 2008 at 9:18 pm
Casper,
That’s such a hollow argument. Americas benevolence and generosity is on display everyday from disaster relief to America based charities doing good work all across the globe. How humanely we treat one individual guilty of atrocities will not swing the pendulum greatly.
That being said, a fair military tribunal is what he should get and more than he deserves.
merci beaucoup
neocon
30. cam | July 13th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
Even the other bloggers who disagree with me have not tried to defend this point but rather have decided that we should match brutality with equal or greater brutality rather than following our own ideals. Problem with these arguments is, other than the fact that they are wrong, they don’t support your original point about the consistency of Obama’s positions.
31. Casper | July 13th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
“I want to cut his nuts off”
Personally? What would you do with them?
Frankly, I would be satisfied with watching him die as the low class murderer he is. let him die the same way as any other mass murderer.
32. Casper | July 13th, 2008 at 9:29 pm
neocon,
I would have no problem with a fair military tribunal.
You are right that America’s benevolence and generosity is on display everyday, but so is the war in Iraq and the stories of American torture. A fair trial would off set some of the bad press we have received the last few years.
33. cam | July 13th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
Mark,
Once again, all martyrs are dead but all dead people are not martyrs. This should be simple logic. Equating the two is what is absurd. Repeating it is the definition of insanity. Or perhaps if you keep repeating it, you will eventually believe it.
Neocon,
If you wish to find fault in my argument, please go ahead. Try using logic. If Mark is wrong and you know it (i.e. he has failed elementary logic)you don’t have to use the me too argument. Your Liberal ……….fill in the blank arguments are tired.
34. neocon | July 13th, 2008 at 9:53 pm
Cam: “Once again, all martyrs are dead.”
Obama: “I think what would be important would be…………………..not to make him into a martyr.”
Do the math
de nada
neocon
35. Casper | July 13th, 2008 at 10:00 pm
Elementary math. All squares are rectangles. Not all rectangles are squares.
While all martyrs are dead, that doesn’t mean that OBL has to die as a martyr. Therefore, he can die without becoming a martyr.
36. neocon | July 13th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
Casper: “Of course the hard core jihadists are going to declare bin Laden a martyr regardless of how he dies.”
And so will many others.
I rest my case
danka shein
neocon
37. neocon | July 13th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
Come to think of it, affording UBL a trial and then executing him could elevate him to super martyrdom status.
just a thought
38. Casper | July 13th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
neocon,
A trial showing what kind of person UBL is, might have the opposite effect, especially amongst the majority of the people in the Middle east. You know, the ones we have been trying to win over.
Regardless of how it would turn out, we would still be the ones taking the high ground.
39. Ricorun | July 13th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
See, the argument goes like this:
(1) make a conclusion. In this case the conclusion is that no matter what fate is dealt to OBL, he will be a martyr.
(2) work back through the facts from there. In this case, because Obama said he supports the death penalty for Osama, but doesn’t want to make him a martyr, he’s being a flip-flopper because the facts don’t conform to the already formed conclusion.
Perhaps this isn’t very Christian of me, but I’d rather like to see Osama captured, spend an ignominious existence in a solitary cell somewhere for quite a while, then die a natural, but exquisitely painful death while awaiting execution.
I even have a great place to suggest… set him up in a little cell in the new George W Bush waste treatment plant in San Francisco. There’s a certain poetry in that on several levels, lol!
40. Casper | July 13th, 2008 at 11:07 pm
“I even have a great place to suggest… set him up in a little cell in the new George W Bush waste treatment plant in San Francisco. There’s a certain poetry in that on several levels, lol!”
Perfect, let him die of lung cancer with his last view and smell being the sewage flowing in front of his cell. LOL
Better yet, make it waste from a hog processing plant.
41. Mark Noonan | July 13th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
Ricorun,
What I find most flabbergasting here is that you guys won’t surrender the point - you know darned well that Obama meant we shouldn’t execute bin Laden, and yet you’ll keep spinning the mental cobwebs to find some way to pretend that Obama hasn’t flipped on this issue.
Really, this cult of personality about Obama has gone far enough - he is fallible, ya know?
42. Mark Noonan | July 13th, 2008 at 11:25 pm
…oh, and as an aside, Obama was right in the first place…whatever we do, don’t execute the guy. Imprisoned in Alaska incommunicado - thats fine…but don’t kill him; that just makes a prisoner into a rallying cry…
43. bagni | July 13th, 2008 at 11:35 pm
marksama
cosmically confused as usual
why would you waste time accusing flipfloppers
when the guy you want dead
is still astronomically alive?
wouldn’t you first criticize the earthlings who never found or killed him after 8 yrs of trying?
please…an extraterrestial explanation?
sorry…we’re in black hole bewilderment?
44. gotbrains? | July 13th, 2008 at 11:43 pm
All this discussion about what to do with Osama when he’s captured… what? -you mean he’s still out there, almost 7 years after Mr Bush swore he’d bring the perps of 9/11 to justice? And here the discussion is actually about what to do with bin Laden when he’s captured? Uh, after 7 years, maybe we should stop thinking about it, and actually, you know, do it. You know, “Mission Accomplished”, and that sort of thing.
Oh wait - Bush then said he didn’t even think about bin Laden. hmmm, does that make Bush a flip-flopper?
45. js | July 13th, 2008 at 11:48 pm
he is already a dead man mark…they would shoot him before they let us catch him…and blame us too…but there are too many wahabbi in paki….with musharaff out of the way…the sect of hate will eventually control the nukes…
46. Jeremiah | July 13th, 2008 at 11:50 pm
black hole bewilderment?–bagni.
And that’s where you’ll stay…as long as you keep believing Obama and his bag of liberale trickeries.
47. Ricorun | July 14th, 2008 at 12:21 am
No Mark, I simply don’t accept your pre-ordained conclusion. I think even you can appreciate at least the possibility that there are methods to eliminate the piece of slime that is Osama that may be more or less provocative to his followers. On the provocative end we could Fallujah him — drag him through the streets and hang his scorched body from a bridge. Or we could do something else — like something more in line with what I suggested. The first would make him a martyr with absolute certainty. The second, possibly (maybe even probably) not so much.
Of course there’s another thing… as I recall you’re convinced Osama is already dead. So it’s kind of a moot point, isn’t it?
48. Mark Noonan | July 14th, 2008 at 12:33 am
Ricorun,
Nope - Islamists of the bin Laden stripe don’t accept that a non-Islamist can pass judgement on an Moslem…any means of execution would be considered a martyrdom.
Bagni,
Oh, I think bin Laden has been dead since late 2001.
49. Magnum Serpentine | July 14th, 2008 at 5:00 am
I got a true flip flopper here and he was caught on film too!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioy90nF2anI
A vote for McSame is a vote for a Third term for george.
We do not need 4 more years of disaster.
50. Tractatus | July 14th, 2008 at 11:21 am
I’m not reading anything in to Obama’s statement - he said he didn’t want to make a martyr out of bin Laden and to anyone with a cursory familiarity with English, that means he didn’t want him dead.
So you flunked logic 101 and English 101?
This is pretty pathetic even for you, Noonan. You can be “flabbergasted” all you want, you’re making an unbelievably basic logical error here, as has been pointed out to you several times. In response, you just say, “No, I’m right” and wonder why people don’t simply concede to your mistake.
If you ever wonder why so many people don’t think much of your intellectual prowess, consider this thread an object lesson. You make a very basic error, absolutely refuse to correct yourself, and insist that no, it’s everybody else who has it wrong. This is an ongoing pattern with you. Ricorun summed it up nicely in comment #39.
You really should look into some logic classes, Noonan. You can probably take some at the local college. A little training in basic logic processes would do wonders for you, or at least make you less prone to ridiculousness such as this thread.