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	<title>Comments on: The Trouble Is That We Value Life</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogsforvictory.com/2008/07/18/the-trouble-is-that-we-value-life/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogsforvictory.com/2008/07/18/the-trouble-is-that-we-value-life/</link>
	<description>Where Defeat Is Not An Option</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 18:04:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Dennis</title>
		<link>http://blogsforvictory.com/2008/07/18/the-trouble-is-that-we-value-life/#comment-68407</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 06:51:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogsforvictory.com/2008/07/18/the-trouble-is-that-we-value-life/#comment-68407</guid>
		<description>Js - the Jews' homeland? The Jews who founded Israel were Europeans with no ancestral heritage in the Middle East. They were not remotely religious, but socialists by ideology and Ashkenazi by race. David Ben Gurion was actually Polish - born David Gruen in Plonsk. 

The Palestinians, on the other hand, are Semitic people, who from antiquity were indigenous to the lands and homes from which they were driven.

I'm guessing you would refuse to live in peace as second-class citizens in your own ancestral home, under occupation by foreign usurpers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Js - the Jews&#8217; homeland? The Jews who founded Israel were Europeans with no ancestral heritage in the Middle East. They were not remotely religious, but socialists by ideology and Ashkenazi by race. David Ben Gurion was actually Polish - born David Gruen in Plonsk. </p>
<p>The Palestinians, on the other hand, are Semitic people, who from antiquity were indigenous to the lands and homes from which they were driven.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m guessing you would refuse to live in peace as second-class citizens in your own ancestral home, under occupation by foreign usurpers.</p>
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		<title>By: js</title>
		<link>http://blogsforvictory.com/2008/07/18/the-trouble-is-that-we-value-life/#comment-68034</link>
		<dc:creator>js</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2008 02:36:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogsforvictory.com/2008/07/18/the-trouble-is-that-we-value-life/#comment-68034</guid>
		<description>one would think that arabs belong in arabia...not israel...and the jews only want thier homeland back...its not like they sold it to anyone...

if there is a right of return for one...then we have all have to recognize the right of return for all...equal justice to each and all...so send them back home to arabia....no need for a west bank/gaza solution...they lost thier right when they refused to live in peace...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>one would think that arabs belong in arabia&#8230;not israel&#8230;and the jews only want thier homeland back&#8230;its not like they sold it to anyone&#8230;</p>
<p>if there is a right of return for one&#8230;then we have all have to recognize the right of return for all&#8230;equal justice to each and all&#8230;so send them back home to arabia&#8230;.no need for a west bank/gaza solution&#8230;they lost thier right when they refused to live in peace&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: FmrMarine</title>
		<link>http://blogsforvictory.com/2008/07/18/the-trouble-is-that-we-value-life/#comment-68020</link>
		<dc:creator>FmrMarine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2008 01:01:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogsforvictory.com/2008/07/18/the-trouble-is-that-we-value-life/#comment-68020</guid>
		<description>dumbdennis;

&#62;&#62;&#62;it all has to do with the absence of any real justice.&#62;&#62;&#62;

The palis were nomads living in jordan.
They were kicked out by their fellow muslems.
They were offered their own country, as was Isreal.
Isreal accepted, the palis rejected theirs and wanted Isreals land instead.
There are 800 000 000 muslems that occupy half a continent, why dont they take in the "innocent" little palis?

NOOOO NOOO they HAVE to have Jerusalem.

This is a sore the arab world wants to remain open as to eventually drive Isreal into the sea.
YOU seem to forget Isreal has been directally attacked six times, and indirect ally attacked daily.

http://frontpagemag.com/media/pdf/BigLies.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dumbdennis;</p>
<p>&gt;&gt;&gt;it all has to do with the absence of any real justice.&gt;&gt;&gt;</p>
<p>The palis were nomads living in jordan.<br />
They were kicked out by their fellow muslems.<br />
They were offered their own country, as was Isreal.<br />
Isreal accepted, the palis rejected theirs and wanted Isreals land instead.<br />
There are 800 000 000 muslems that occupy half a continent, why dont they take in the &#8220;innocent&#8221; little palis?</p>
<p>NOOOO NOOO they HAVE to have Jerusalem.</p>
<p>This is a sore the arab world wants to remain open as to eventually drive Isreal into the sea.<br />
YOU seem to forget Isreal has been directally attacked six times, and indirect ally attacked daily.</p>
<p><a href="http://frontpagemag.com/media/pdf/BigLies.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://frontpagemag.com/media/pdf/BigLies.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Dennis</title>
		<link>http://blogsforvictory.com/2008/07/18/the-trouble-is-that-we-value-life/#comment-67980</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 21:04:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogsforvictory.com/2008/07/18/the-trouble-is-that-we-value-life/#comment-67980</guid>
		<description>Bigfoot, you make at least part of a valid point. But the Palestinians realize their lives are worthless to the rest of the world anyway. At least to most of those who hold the power. It is tragic, but the effect of that has been a kind of collective self-loathing, and since the only ready weapon they have is their sheer numbers and hatred, suicide is what they use. It is a great evil, but it is the ground reality. 

Yet to simply lay the responsibility entirely with the Arabs is naive, if not diabolically dishonest. The actual history is much more complex. As for killing the innocent, terror was introduced as a standard tactic to the region by Irgun, the Stern Gang and others to equalize the numerical disadvantage of the early Zionist utopians who intended to establish a state there. The bombing of the King David Hotel was just one incidence of this. The wholesale ethnic cleansing of Palestine which preceded the official founding of Israel was the legacy that keeps on giving, to the present day. 

That in no way excuses Palestinian terror, but in a universe of cause and effect these are factors that must be reckoned with in order to move beyond the present stalemate. 

Love has little to do with it, Mark - it all has to do with the absence of any real justice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bigfoot, you make at least part of a valid point. But the Palestinians realize their lives are worthless to the rest of the world anyway. At least to most of those who hold the power. It is tragic, but the effect of that has been a kind of collective self-loathing, and since the only ready weapon they have is their sheer numbers and hatred, suicide is what they use. It is a great evil, but it is the ground reality. </p>
<p>Yet to simply lay the responsibility entirely with the Arabs is naive, if not diabolically dishonest. The actual history is much more complex. As for killing the innocent, terror was introduced as a standard tactic to the region by Irgun, the Stern Gang and others to equalize the numerical disadvantage of the early Zionist utopians who intended to establish a state there. The bombing of the King David Hotel was just one incidence of this. The wholesale ethnic cleansing of Palestine which preceded the official founding of Israel was the legacy that keeps on giving, to the present day. </p>
<p>That in no way excuses Palestinian terror, but in a universe of cause and effect these are factors that must be reckoned with in order to move beyond the present stalemate. </p>
<p>Love has little to do with it, Mark - it all has to do with the absence of any real justice.</p>
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		<title>By: Rich</title>
		<link>http://blogsforvictory.com/2008/07/18/the-trouble-is-that-we-value-life/#comment-67977</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:53:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogsforvictory.com/2008/07/18/the-trouble-is-that-we-value-life/#comment-67977</guid>
		<description>Wow three hundred foreign advisors.  Why didn't he get just one advisor to help him with U.S. geography.  Would have helped him learn how man states we have and which ones are next to his home state.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow three hundred foreign advisors.  Why didn&#8217;t he get just one advisor to help him with U.S. geography.  Would have helped him learn how man states we have and which ones are next to his home state.</p>
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		<title>By: \'08ama</title>
		<link>http://blogsforvictory.com/2008/07/18/the-trouble-is-that-we-value-life/#comment-67930</link>
		<dc:creator>\'08ama</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:27:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogsforvictory.com/2008/07/18/the-trouble-is-that-we-value-life/#comment-67930</guid>
		<description>Deleted - mindless insults.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Deleted - mindless insults.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Noonan</title>
		<link>http://blogsforvictory.com/2008/07/18/the-trouble-is-that-we-value-life/#comment-67924</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Noonan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 16:13:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogsforvictory.com/2008/07/18/the-trouble-is-that-we-value-life/#comment-67924</guid>
		<description>Dennis,

You're looking at it entirely the wrong way..and its a pity you can't show a bit of love.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dennis,</p>
<p>You&#8217;re looking at it entirely the wrong way..and its a pity you can&#8217;t show a bit of love.</p>
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		<title>By: Bigfoot</title>
		<link>http://blogsforvictory.com/2008/07/18/the-trouble-is-that-we-value-life/#comment-67877</link>
		<dc:creator>Bigfoot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:57:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogsforvictory.com/2008/07/18/the-trouble-is-that-we-value-life/#comment-67877</guid>
		<description>Dennis, maybe some of us would value Palestinian lives more, if the Palestinians would value the lives of their own people more.  They should start by refraining from strapping bombs to their children and sending them off on suicide attacks (a practice for which Saddam Hussein offered monetary rewards).  Then, they should stop firing rockets into Israel from residential areas, or from next to mosques or schools, which endanger their own civilians, and may well have contributed to the deaths of "innocent" Palestinians in the massacres you refer to.  In fact, such a course of action might prevent more people from adopting the attitude of that "GOP good old boy".  If the Arabs would sort &lt;i&gt;themselves&lt;/i&gt; out, so that Israel (and we) can fight the combatants with a decreased risk of harming civilians, God sorting them out will become less necessary.  Also, by decreasing the risk to civilians, their complaints against Israel would have a greater degree of legitimacy.  But as long as Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Qaeda, the Taliban and others continue to dress without uniforms, use civilians as shields, use civilian buildings including mosques as gun platforms, use civilian vehicles such as ambulances as weapons carriers or as bombs, and make suicide bombers out of children, the responsibility for civilian deaths resulting from these dastardly tactics falls with them, not with Israel or us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dennis, maybe some of us would value Palestinian lives more, if the Palestinians would value the lives of their own people more.  They should start by refraining from strapping bombs to their children and sending them off on suicide attacks (a practice for which Saddam Hussein offered monetary rewards).  Then, they should stop firing rockets into Israel from residential areas, or from next to mosques or schools, which endanger their own civilians, and may well have contributed to the deaths of &#8220;innocent&#8221; Palestinians in the massacres you refer to.  In fact, such a course of action might prevent more people from adopting the attitude of that &#8220;GOP good old boy&#8221;.  If the Arabs would sort <i>themselves</i> out, so that Israel (and we) can fight the combatants with a decreased risk of harming civilians, God sorting them out will become less necessary.  Also, by decreasing the risk to civilians, their complaints against Israel would have a greater degree of legitimacy.  But as long as Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Qaeda, the Taliban and others continue to dress without uniforms, use civilians as shields, use civilian buildings including mosques as gun platforms, use civilian vehicles such as ambulances as weapons carriers or as bombs, and make suicide bombers out of children, the responsibility for civilian deaths resulting from these dastardly tactics falls with them, not with Israel or us.</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis</title>
		<link>http://blogsforvictory.com/2008/07/18/the-trouble-is-that-we-value-life/#comment-67852</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:36:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogsforvictory.com/2008/07/18/the-trouble-is-that-we-value-life/#comment-67852</guid>
		<description>Sorry, meant to say "Hezbollah" prisoners. And it should go without saying that all people of good will should hope Gilad Shalit manages to return home alive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, meant to say &#8220;Hezbollah&#8221; prisoners. And it should go without saying that all people of good will should hope Gilad Shalit manages to return home alive.</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis</title>
		<link>http://blogsforvictory.com/2008/07/18/the-trouble-is-that-we-value-life/#comment-67850</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:21:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogsforvictory.com/2008/07/18/the-trouble-is-that-we-value-life/#comment-67850</guid>
		<description>No, the trouble is that we value certain lives above others - with an arbitrariness that approaches disdain for the actual essence of life itself. 

How else to explain the virtual silence concerning the many hundreds of innocent Palestinian civilians massacred at Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in 1982, versus the hoopla surrounding the eleven Israeli athletes massacred in the 1972 Munich Olympic terror attack of a decade earlier? see http://www.counterpunch.org/gorman0921.html

The problem is not with violence or innocence violated, but with bigotry and prejudice, with disproportionate justice, which renders the very term "justice" oxymoronic. 

Nobody I know thinks Israeli lives are worthless, but plenty think Palestinian lives are. Likewise plenty of people believe Arab lives are as disposable as yesterday's trash. Only yesterday I sat at lunch with a GOP good old boy in Winston Salem, NC listening to a polemic about how the US should "kill 'em all (Arabs) and let God sort 'em out." Mind you, the good old boy was of the ilk who believe abortion is murder - but somehow all those brown-skinned people just don't rise to the status of real human beings. 

As for Eldad Regev and Ehud Goldwasser, condolences are due their families. They should not have died. But since when were a handful of Jewish sodiers equal to the lives of over a thousand Lebanese civilians and a nation ravaged after decades of rebuilding? 

Please don't try to tell me it is the fault of Hezbollah. There has never been "tit for tat" over there. Israel always, ALWAYS kills multiples more innocent Palestinians than it loses to Palestinian terror attacks. They pride themselves on that.

Consequently there is a perverse symmetry in two Israeli carcases being exchanged for times more Palestinian prisoners. Unequal justice makes for unequal exchanges. Sometimes in spite of the diabolical nature of the situation, there seems to be a higher logic at work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, the trouble is that we value certain lives above others - with an arbitrariness that approaches disdain for the actual essence of life itself. </p>
<p>How else to explain the virtual silence concerning the many hundreds of innocent Palestinian civilians massacred at Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in 1982, versus the hoopla surrounding the eleven Israeli athletes massacred in the 1972 Munich Olympic terror attack of a decade earlier? see <a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/gorman0921.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.counterpunch.org/gorman0921.html</a></p>
<p>The problem is not with violence or innocence violated, but with bigotry and prejudice, with disproportionate justice, which renders the very term &#8220;justice&#8221; oxymoronic. </p>
<p>Nobody I know thinks Israeli lives are worthless, but plenty think Palestinian lives are. Likewise plenty of people believe Arab lives are as disposable as yesterday&#8217;s trash. Only yesterday I sat at lunch with a GOP good old boy in Winston Salem, NC listening to a polemic about how the US should &#8220;kill &#8216;em all (Arabs) and let God sort &#8216;em out.&#8221; Mind you, the good old boy was of the ilk who believe abortion is murder - but somehow all those brown-skinned people just don&#8217;t rise to the status of real human beings. </p>
<p>As for Eldad Regev and Ehud Goldwasser, condolences are due their families. They should not have died. But since when were a handful of Jewish sodiers equal to the lives of over a thousand Lebanese civilians and a nation ravaged after decades of rebuilding? </p>
<p>Please don&#8217;t try to tell me it is the fault of Hezbollah. There has never been &#8220;tit for tat&#8221; over there. Israel always, ALWAYS kills multiples more innocent Palestinians than it loses to Palestinian terror attacks. They pride themselves on that.</p>
<p>Consequently there is a perverse symmetry in two Israeli carcases being exchanged for times more Palestinian prisoners. Unequal justice makes for unequal exchanges. Sometimes in spite of the diabolical nature of the situation, there seems to be a higher logic at work.</p>
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