The Russo-Georgian War (Bumped)
August 11th, 2008 at 01:20am Mark Noonan
This is getting rather threatening:
Russia sent forces into Georgia on Friday to repel a Georgian assault on the breakaway South Ossetia region and Georgia’s pro-Western president said the two countries were at war.
South Ossetia’s rebel leader Eduard Kokoity said there were “hundreds of dead civilians” in the main town Tskhinvali, Russia’s Interfax news agency quoted him as saying.
A senior Russian military commander said parts of Russia’s 58th army were approaching the rebel capital, where fighting raged between Russian-backed separatists and Georgian forces sent in on Friday to seize it.
A senior Georgian security official said Russian jets had bombed the Vaziani military airbase outside the Georgian capital Tbilisi, and President Mikheil Saakashvili said 150 Russian tanks, armored personnel carriers and other vehicles had entered South Ossetia from neighboring Russia.
“Russia is fighting a war with us in our own territory,” Saakashvili told CNN, calling on Washington to help.
Given that Russia is a dying nation, you’d think that Russian imperialism would be a dead letter - but the effects of Putin are far reaching and disasterous in the extreme. Russia, for Lord only knows what reason, seems to have imperial ambitions in the tiny, insignificant territory of South Ossetia and thus has backed a rebel movement in the area - the Georgian government, which is backed by the United States, has had enough of this and has moved agains the rebels, and now the Russians are moving in. Does Russia want war? Or is it that the Russian leadership doesn’t realise the level of contempt Russia’s military is held in (couldn’t even take Grozny without levelling the town) and thus they don’t realise that the world isn’t over-awed by Russian units on the move?
It is to be hoped that Russia will come to its senses soon as this is the sort of idiotic, blind but typical Russian move which in the past has led to large wars.
UPDATE: McCain weighs in with the exact right policy - from NRO’s The Corner:
Today, news reports indicate that Russian military forces crossed an internationally-recognized border into the sovereign territory of Georgia. Russia should immediately and unconditionally cease its military operations and withdraw all forces from sovereign Georgian territory. What is most critical now is to avoid further confrontation between Russian and Georgian military forces. The consequences for Euro-Atlantic stability and security are grave.
The government of Georgia has called for a cease-fire and for a resumption of direct talks on South Ossetia with international mediators. The U.S. should immediately convene an emergency session of the United Nations Security Council to call on Russia to reverse course. The U.S. should immediately work with the EU and the OSCE to put diplomatic pressure on Russia to reverse this perilous course it has chosen. We should immediately call a meeting of the North Atlantic Council to assess Georgia’s security and review measures NATO can take to contribute to stabilizing this very dangerous situation. Finally, the international community needs to establish a truly independent and neutral peacekeeping force in South Ossetia.
UPDATE: Russia is acting entirely insane:
Georgia demanded a cease-fire Saturday in the separatist province of South Ossetia, with the Georgian leader calling Russian attacks there “annihilation of a democracy on their borders.”
“This is 100 percent, unprovoked brutal Russian invasion,” Georgia President Mikhail Saakashvili told the BBC. “We on our own cannot fight with Russia. We want immediate cease-fire, immediate cessation of hostilities, separation of Russia and Georgia and international mediation.”
Russian President Dmitri Medvedev’s office said Saturday evening that Russia had not received the Georgian cease-fire proposal.
A defiant Russia is defending its actions in South Ossetia as fighting there threatens to escalate into a full-scale war between Russian and its fellow former Soviet republic, with at least 1,500 people reported dead.
Russia, which has close ties with South Ossetia, has sent hundreds of tanks and troops into the separatist province and bombed Georgian towns Saturday in a major escalation of the conflict, while Georgia, a staunch U.S. ally, has fought to regain control of the province.
This is the authentic Muscovite of old - demanding, brusque and determined to get his way regardless of the justice of his cause. That a dying Russia would try this indicates a level of desperation and paranoia in Moscow - South Ossetia is nothing to a Russia in terms of territory or wealth and certainly Russia could by international pressure get a lot for the South Ossetians in terms of automony, if that is really what Russia was after here. The worst thing about this is that Russia might not even know what it wants - this might just be an insane lashing out.
The world teeters on the brink of a large war, and I hope we can defuse this quickly - but Russia must leave Georgia.
UPDATE: It just gets worse and worse. At this point, I think that its time for NATO to present a demand to Russia to case forthwith their attacks on Georgia. There is no need for Russia to be bombing anything outside Ossetia, and no reason to be in Ossetia as the Georgian troops have withdrawn. This is now becoming a crime, pure and simple, on the part of Russia.
UPDATE: President Bush weighs in:
BEIJING (AP) - President Bush on Monday sharply criticized Moscow’s harsh military crackdown in the former Soviet republic of Georgia, saying the violence is unacceptable and Russia’s response is disproportionate.
The United States is waging an all-out campaign to get Russia to halt its retaliation against Georgia for trying to take control of the breakaway province of South Ossetia.Bush, in an interview with NBC Sports, said, “I’ve expressed my grave concern about the disproportionate response of Russia and that we strongly condemn the bombing outside of South Ossetia.” He said he did so directly to Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, who’s here for the Olympics, and by phone to Russian President Dmitri Medvedev.
On Sunday, Vice President Dick Cheney told Georgia’s pro-American president that “Russian aggression must not go unanswered, and that its continuation would have serious consequences for its relations with the United States,” Cheney’s office reported.
While Georgia said its troops have retreated from South Ossetia and are honoring a cease-fire, Russia disputed the claim, and U.S. officials said Moscow was only expanding its blitz into new areas.
“I was very firm with Vladimir Putin,” Bush said. “Hopefully this will get resolved peacefully.”
Cheney spoke Sunday afternoon with Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili, Cheney press secretary Lee Ann McBride said. “The vice president expressed the United States’ solidarity with the Georgian people and their democratically elected government in the face of this threat to Georgia’s sovereignty and territorial integrity,” McBride said.
Entry Filed under: Campaign 2008, Foreign Affairs, President Bush, Republicans
166 Comments
1. \'08ama | August 8th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
“…..Russia, for Lord only knows what reason, seems to have imperial ambitions in the tiny, insignificant territory of South Ossetia….”
Gee, I wonder where those pesky Russians ever got the idea to expand their empire into tiny, insignificant countries that had nothing to do with 9-11. I dont get it.
2. Kahn | August 8th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
I’m reminded of a news conference given By George H. W. Bush where he was asked about us supporting the break away of one of the Baltic states. Can’t remember which one (Lithuania, Estonia?) The reporter asked him if we would send in troops. Bush looked thoughtful a second and then asked the reporter “How many divisions do you think I should use to invade the Soviet Union?”
This of course illustrated the absurdity of the question. Because that is EXACTLY what the reporter was proposing.
Russia is an enormously powerful nation. Ineptly managed and corrupt, to be sure. But enormously powerful in military matters and in natural resources. A military confrontation there is pretty damn serious business. Georgia is NOT part of NATO. And correct me if I’m wrong, but we have no military treaty with them.
Diplomatic pressure is about the only thing we can do now. No matter how lame and ineffectual it will be.
3. Kahn | August 8th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
\’08ama - you are pretty ignorant, in case you didn’t know.
We have no desire to make Iraq or Afghanistan a territory of the United States. We just want those two areas to be stable and to stop trying to kill us. Even a long term military presence in either area would be aimed at that goal.
Put aside the ignorant hate and try to face these serious issues like a grown up - OK?
What do YOU think we should do about actual real Russian Imperialism?
4. Some Assembly Required | August 8th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
Kahn, I completely agree. This is non of our business. Until Russia itself threatens the US or attacks the US military, force should never be thrown around. The American public is up in arms over 4000 dead soldiers. Any military response towards Russia and you can effective multiply those deaths by a factor of 100. There would also be a draft and some nuclear strike wouldn’t be a stretch. Basicly it would be WWIII. China would more then likely side with Russia (the enemy of my enemy). Though unlikely it wouldn’t be completely absurd to see North Korea join that team. It would be Eastern Europe vs. America and parts of Western Europe.
All things considered we did win the cold war through diplomatic means. MAD was enough to scare both nations to the table. Hopefully this will not be lost on future leaders.
5. Mark Noonan | August 8th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
The principle at stake here is whether or not a non-democratic nation (Russia) has the right to invade a democratic nation (Georgia). As we hold that government can only derive their just powers from the consent of the governed, we can say that Georgia has a right to defend itself, while the Russian government hasn’t the right to issue a parking ticket, let alone invade another nation.
The principle that democracy is always superior to tyranny commands that we, by one means or another, force Russia out of Georgia.
6. Kahn | August 8th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Mark,
But that disputed territory voted overwhelmingly to break away.
7. Mark Noonan | August 8th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
Kahn,
So did South Carolina. Another principle is that in a democracy a section cannot seceed without the consent of the whole. The concept of inherent right of self determination was proven to be disasterous and I don’t subscribe to it.
8. Kahn | August 8th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
South Carolina had ratified a Constitution with no escape clause. And frankly, if they hadn’t used military force against Fort Sumter, they might have succeeded. Lincoln interpreted his powers pretty loosely.
This region never accepted Georgian rule from the very beginning when Georgia broke away from the U.S.S.R.. They have the same right to break away as Georgia did. Though Russia’s motives are suspect, the basic case of this region is not cut and dried. This conflict and the resultant Russian interest is what kept Georgia out of NATO. That’s something to think about.
But our troops could follow the German and French tank division into the region…
9. Some Assembly Required | August 8th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Mark, this is where America is walking a fine line in the eyes of the World. The Iraq war which was pre-emptive and later found to be done so on false or less then credible information comes up. Bringing Democracy to the Iraqi’s has not worked out so well thus far for us and is still a complete mess. So to take this high road position brings about claims of hypocrisies and holding a double standard. Then of course theres our policy of supporting democracies but only if they suit our interests. I’m not defending the Russians here, I’m just simply stating that US pressure to but a stop to this can and most likely will be view as hypocritical and only cause more resentment. Diplomatic actions should and must be taken by the UN, but the US should not spear head the charge here. We should support it but not lead it.
10. phnx | August 8th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Where is the UN on this subject? HIding under the table?
Where is the EU on this subject? Cowering, and afraid that Russia will cut off their gas this winter?
So far the US has called for a cease fire. I doubt there will be any intervention of the US, although we did have military advisors there until one month ago. I would guess there would be a condemnation of this Russian agression. While it may have been before you were out of diapers \’08ama & SAR, Georgia was once part of the Soviet Union.
Putin and the boys are from the old school (KGB) and resent the break up of the Soviet Union. They still think of Georgia and other break away states as part of Mother Russia.
The world is a copmplicated and dangerous place. No time for a novice like B. Hussein to get on the job training.
11. When I Was a TeenagerR&hellip | August 8th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
[...] News » News Crisis in Georgia2008-08-08 13:25:15Told us in our own territory,” Saakashvili told CNN, calling on Washington to [...]
12. Mark Noonan | August 8th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
kahn,
True, and just as soon as Russia is a democracy and the Ossetians lay down their arms we can have a full and free discussion between interested parties as to where Ossetia will wind up - but a tyrannical regime propping up a rebellion in the territory of a democracy is a non-starter for me.
SAR,
Your theory is only correct if one accepts a series of leftwing lies about the situation in the world, so I’m afraid I’ve got nothing to say to your point.
13. Kahn | August 8th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Well yah. Our South Carolina didn’t handle it well either.
And 80 or so years earlier, France helped out a British colony with ships, arms, and soldiers….
14. SEW | August 8th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
President Obama, President of the World, is busy filling his tires with air. O8Bama, we need a silver tongue to settle this misunderstanding. Maybe Save the Planet Pelosi can fill in?
15. Magnum Serpentine | August 8th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
Deleted - off topic.
16. Mark Noonan | August 8th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
Khan,
Tyannical regime helping democrats fight against tyrannical regime - that is ok; it is always licit to help a democracy fight a tyranny. I’ve very seamless on this.
17. Some Assembly Required | August 8th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
I’m at a loss as to how you can call them lies. No WMD’s have been found, there was this whole mess known as Iran-Contra. Anyway, I did not mean to bring Iraq or US blunders into this. My real point was that the US should not jump into this crisis with two feet. I think we should step back and let another country of the UN take the reins. Preferably one in Europe. Lets support them with whatever then need to bring closure to the situation. Like it or not the US is not viewed with friendly eyes in the world today. Sometimes taking a backseat and stepping up when asked is the best policy.
18. SEW | August 8th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
“I think we should step back and let another country of the UN take the reins. Preferably one in Europe.”
Take the French, Canadian, Eurasia approach. Let the tryants have their way. Obama 08. Peace.
19. Kahn | August 8th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Mark, the French Revolution happened AFTER ours.
But nitpicking aside. We’re not going in to help the Georgians. We are not going to have our soldiers and airmen killing Russians. CIA and Delta, people like that - maybe. But not an Air Wing and not a tank division.
20. OhioOrrin | August 8th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
nuke ‘em all - let God sort ‘em out.
ahh wait, Georgia’s our ally right?
plus didn’t they keep some nukes themselves after the breakup?
alrighty then, lets go back to - blast ‘em w verbage!
and my friends, obama’s got that top shelf verbage going there, now doesn’t he?
21. Danish Artist | August 8th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
“Gee, I wonder where those pesky Russians ever got the idea to expand their empire into tiny, insignificant countries that had nothing to do with 9-11. I dont get it.”
08ama, uh maybe the ex-KGBer is trying to relive the good old days where Russia took over countries for the own expansion and formed the Soviet Union. They invaded Afghanistan once before.
You don’t get it because you are an imbecile. 9-11? oh, please. Is this another lame attempt at blaming Bush. The country and government of Afghanistan had nothing to do with 9-11. Afghanistan supported Al Qaeda? So did other countries - do you see us invading them too?
Get a life before your golden boy defeats himself before the convention.
22. Nevada Pundit | August 8th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
I think our best move here would be diplomatic and not at the fore front. This I believe only to support our interests their.
a quote “The majority of the roughly 70,000 people living in South Ossetia are ethnically distinct from Georgians. They say they were forcibly absorbed into Georgia under Soviet rule and now want to exercise their right to self-determination.”
I’m for the protection of democracy in any country, and if it were Georgia proper being invaded then I would agree all cards on the table. S Ossetia though has chosen the side they wanted to be on 15 yrs ago, they apply and receive Russian passport, independently govern themselves, are not historically part of Georgia, and have chosen to side with Russia. I do think that in the spirit of the break up of the Soviet Union, no matter how much we would like S. Ossetia to be part of a pro western Georgia, they do have the right to decide for themselves.
Now given the history of the Russian government and the problems that have persisted especially over the last year between Georgia and Russia, I do think that we should prepare ourselves for Georgia itself to be invaded. The rules change in my book if that happens.
23. Magnum Serpentine | August 8th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
Mark
My statement was not off topic. Stating that this war in Georgia is none of our business is not off topic. It is speaking about the situation.
And what business do we have getting involved in a war over there anyway. We have two going already. What Russia and Georgia does is none of our business. That is what I said. And it sure wasn’t off topic.
A vote for McBush is a vote for a third term for george.
24. Mark Noonan | August 8th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
Nevada,
I’m willing to believe that the S. Ossetians might want to be part of Russia - but this can now only be determined after a Russian withdrawal, and surrender of arms by the rebels, the insertion of a peacekeeping force between Ossetia, Georgia and Russia and then a free and fair election of Ossetian delegates who can then negotiate with the Georgian government for union, autonomy or independence, as desired and agreeable by all sides.
To me the firm principle of a democracy always coming out on top of a non-democracy trumps all.
25. Mark Noonan | August 8th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Magnum,
No, but you’re always inserting President Bush into all topics - stop it; the world isn’t about President Bush and your hatred of him.
26. Mark Noonan | August 8th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
Kahn,
Yep - tyranny helping democracy to fight tyranny…democracy rules all.
To clarify a bit:
To me, the fundamental lesson of 9/11 is the necessity of all democratic States to band together in a firm force for both the protection and advancement of democracy. When we allow tyranny to exist, we’re allowing potential wars to fester. The chances of one democracy going to war with another democracy are very slim and, certainly, the history of the late, unlamented 20th century shows that the irreconcilable diferences between freedom and slavery often come to war. And so:
1. In a dispute between a democracy and a non-democracy, all democracies should provide ardent and absolute support for the democracy.
2. Any attempt to subjugate a free people by a tyranny must be resisted at all costs.
3. Tyrannical regimes are to be dealt with only as necessary for some temporary, short term goal but must never be considered part of the permanent landscape.
4. Any democracy may take it upon itself to oust a tyrannical regime.
5. All tyrannical regimes are held to be entirely illegitimate and while this or that deal might be made with them, it is not incumbant upon a democracy to honor those agreements given the fact that a tyrant cannot actually bind his people to an agreement.
27. Magnum Serpentine | August 8th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
Mark your right and I apologize. Thanks for pointing that out to me too. and thank you for correcting me as well
MS
28. phnx | August 8th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
” this war in Georgia is none of our business ” MS
Typical leftist pacifist burying your head in the sand. You remind me of Chamberlain. When the Nazi’s invaded the Sudetenland, the pacifists tried to rationalize the right of Hitler to do so. Chamberlain conducted discussions, in which Hitler gave him ‘assurances”, He returned to England claiming “peace in our times”. The rest is history.
“In my view the strongest force of all, one which grew and took fresh shapes and forms every day war, the force not of any one individual, but was that unmistakable sense of unanimity among the peoples of the world that war must somehow be averted. The peoples of the British Empire were at one with those of Germany, of France and of Italy, and their anxiety, their intense desire for peace, pervaded the whole atmosphere of the conference, and I believe that that, and not threats, made possible the concessions that were made.”
In naivite, Chamberlain erred when he ascribed to the Nazi leadership the same pacifist wishes and desires that he had. The result was World War II.
In his arrogant belief that he can deal personally with tyrants without pre-conditions, I can see Obama, doing the same. What a scarry thought.
29. Kahn | August 9th, 2008 at 12:10 am
Mark,
OK. So how many divisions do YOU think we should use to invade Russia?
But to be clear, this region voted overwhelmingly to be independent. That IS Democracy, isn’t it? WE did the same thing, didn’t we? In fact, it wasn’t even as clear cut in our case as only a majority wanted to break from the Crown.
Would we have gotten independence without force of arms? Would we have gotten it if France had not intervened? No.
And during the second war HERE over independence Lincoln killed 1/4 of our population to keep the Union together. More people than there were slaves. Slavery was bad - yes obviously. But getting blown in half or starving to death in some disease ridden prison sucks also.
Russia’s statements that they are there to protect civilians are reasonable. I hate to say it and I don’t trust the Russians one bit. But there is merit to that statement and it is plausible.
And just how would we get there? Through Turkey? Across the Black Sea? Through Iran? Nope. They are on their own.
30. Mark Noonan | August 9th, 2008 at 1:07 am
Kahn,
Who is talking about invading Russia? We’re talking here about prying Russia out of South Ossetia. Meanwhile, Georgia has perfectly good air and sea ports if the United States wanted to send troops…but that won’t be necessary, save in the extreme crisis of Russian troops going beyond South Ossetia - that would mean war with us, as we could not tolerate the destruction of Georgia by an imperialist Russia (and, thus, the chances of Russia doing that are nearly nil).
One can’t be too sure of anything in that area of the world - the only facts which I know as indisputable are that Georgia has a functioning democracy and Russia doesn’t, and that means - in my understanding - that Russia hasn’t got the right to intervene in South Ossetia, period. Georgia also might have no business there, but its not for Russia to unilaterally decide what Georgia’s rights are or aren’t.
Meanwhile, this supposed reproduction of Georgia’s 1918-21 borders, prior to Lenin’s reconquest of Georgia, indicates South Ossetia was part of pre-USSR Georgia, so any Russian claim to the territory stems from the illegitimate Czarist conquest of the Caucusus region in the 19th century. So even a democratic Russia wouldn’t have much business in South Ossetia…the South Ossetians, of course, must be consulted about their future, but such consultation is not possible while they are armed against Georgia and supported by tyrannical Russia.
31. pelirrojo | August 9th, 2008 at 1:08 am
Mark. How exactly do you define a democratic state? you’ve said in the past mob rule is evil so clearly me and you have different ideas on what a democracy is….so just curious how you personally define it.
As for only democracies being legit, I assume you consider every government in the last 2000 years to be completely and utterly illegitimate?
As for the issue at hand, why shouldnt a state be allowed to break away from the larger state? If they no longer want to belong to the state, and have a large enough majority wanting to split I see no reason why they shouldn’t, nor do i see any reason to support the larger chunk of the state invading them.
32. Mark Noonan | August 9th, 2008 at 1:22 am
pelirojo,
A democratic State is a nation where executive and legislative authority is transmitted via free and fair elections. Furthermore, in order to prevent any confusion, we should consider a nation democratic only if they have so transferred power at least three consecutive times.
As for past governments - most of the time even the monarchies of the past were dependent to at least some degree on the consent of the government - various means were used to ascertain this consent, and it was really only in the latter times of monarchy that the absurd concept of an absolute monarch was developed.
33. Kahn | August 9th, 2008 at 1:27 am
Mark, I see your point. But don’t see how Imperial France could help us and crazy Russia can’t help this region.
But here is why we’re not crossing the Black Sea to help the Georgians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_Fleet
34. pelirrojo | August 9th, 2008 at 1:38 am
Mark, that definition is too broad, even the roman republic would have been included in it. To me no current government is democratic, and I will agree that non democratic states are not legit and we should oppose them, but to me that includes every current nation.
As for the issue itself, I’ll ask again, why shouldn’t they have the right to do so? as khan said that is democracy in action. the clear majority want to break off, can you give me a single reason why they shouldn’t?
35. Mark Noonan | August 9th, 2008 at 2:37 am
Pelirojo,
In American experience we settled that issue - you can’t seceed from a democratic State without that State’s consent. Whatever becomes of Ossetia, it will require the consent of the government of Georgia.
As for democratic government - I’m dealing in modern realities. We know a democratic nation - the United States is (democratic republic), France is (parlaimentary republic), Britain is (parlaimentary monarchy), eg - and we also know what a non-democratic nation is. On a fundamental level, the definition of democracy is the real ability of the people to turn out the government at the next election without risk of coup or civil war - we know that if McCain loses this fall he will gracefully concede and President Bush will cooperate in the transtion of power from Republican to Democratic government…on the other hand, if Putin’s stooge in the Kremlin were to lose an election we’d probably see Putin organising a coup to undo the results.
And keep in mind what my primary concern here is - tyrannical Russia is interfering with the internal affairs of a democratic nation. As Russia hasn’t got a legitimate government, it has no right to intervene even if the Ossetians are 100% in the right. Russia must leave, and there’s an end on it.
36. Mark Noonan | August 9th, 2008 at 2:40 am
kahn,
And I won’t say you’re wrong - I just think we must ensure that in a conflict between democracy and tyranny that democracy come out on top. Too many times we have allowed the non-democratic to triumph either out of rank cowardice or, worse, cynicism about the world.
As for Russia’s Black Sea fleet - I wonder how many of those ships can even put to sea, and I note with great care that there doesn’t seem to be anything in the inventory launched post-USSR. A US carrier battle group would make mincemeat of the Russian Black Sea fleet.
37. phnx | August 9th, 2008 at 9:38 am
Seems to me that there are two issues in play here:
1. The sovereign territory of one country being invaded by an other country (regardless of the pretext).
2. The right of self determination of an ethnic group or province within a sovereign nation.
Clearly the Russian invasion is a breach of international law, and the charter of the UN.
The right of self determination of an ethnic group or a province within a sovereign nation is far more complicated. Under tyranical rule, the answere is simple, the central government will violently repress the break away group, witness Tibet. The break up of Yugoslavia has percipitated the same problems. In a democratic state the same can happen such as the Tamils in Sri Lanka, or groupd in Indonesia, and the Philippines. Or it can be more peaceful but none the less emotional, such as Canada/Quebec, or between French and Flemish Belgium. These last two haven’t yet occured but still have the potential to do so.
Furthermore, there are movements in the US for to secede from the Federal government (Vermont) or from the state, NOrthern and Southern California, Western Washington, Western Oregon, Idaho and Montana.
Regardless of the outcome in Georgia, it is quite likely that geopolitical map will continue change.
38. Olypic Retaliation | August 9th, 2008 at 10:36 am
As Russia has entered another nations foreign territory during the olympics and has entered into hostile action their Olympians should be thrown out of Beijing.
39. js | August 9th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
men are fools
one generation fights and dies to keep freedom special
and another steps toward socialism (and communism) by watering the seeds of a welfare state
the one thing we can be sure of is that for the people in georgia, this is thier first generation of free men for at least a century….and or fathers and grandfathers went to great lengths to shatter the iron curtain and we watched the soviet empire fall…we know…and they deserve every bit of help we can give them…freedom is a stange creature….when you have it, you have to give it away…because if you are stingy and refuse to stand up for her, she will leave you…and if you dont believe that she is worth fighting for…then you dont deserve her…..many generations of americans have fought for her…and many of us have died so that we can give away what we now have…because it is worth fighting for….now we must teach our children this truth…so they can teach it to thiers…and on…and on….
40. Brian (Boston) | August 9th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
“non-democratic nation (Russia) has the right to invade a democratic nation (Georgia)”
According to the CIA Factbook, Russia is a Federation which has an executive branch, legislative branch and judicial branch. The question should be does the country of Russia have the right to invade the country of Georgia? The answer, of course, is no. The next question is what should the world do about it?
41. Stas | August 9th, 2008 at 6:40 pm
Dear friends! We are watching the Great Lie from Internet! The reality is that Saakashvili FIRST bombed Tskhinvali on the Day of the Olympian Games! Georgian soldiers SHOT Russian Peace-making armies, peaceful population FIRST and only AFTER this Russian troops came to prevent further destruction. Remember Kosovo, and the US position in that case! If you understand the reality, that means your have a free mind. P.S. Please, send this message to all your friends. Thank you!
42. SEW | August 9th, 2008 at 7:17 pm
When will the cut and run brigade begin the Dem talking point “Russia did not attack the USA?”
There are no WMDs! What about the world view of the USA? Halliburton/Cheney it’s about Georgia’s natural resources!
Only if Obama)* would return from vacation and settle the dispute with this tiny country with his huge diplomatic skills.
Putin is shivering in terror with the prospect of the Obama silver tongue. Maybe Jimmy Carter will assist here.
Peace. Obama 08.
43. SEW | August 9th, 2008 at 7:22 pm
“The next question is what should the world do about it?”
The messiah will make the waters part. Our time has come and the world will begin to heal.
Comforting. Obama08. Peace.
44. SEW | August 9th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
Make Love, not War. Obama/Edwards 08.
45. gotsbrains? | August 9th, 2008 at 7:40 pm
Funny- last night I watched Bush-boy exchange warm pleasantries with de-facto Russian dictator Vladimir Putin at the Beijing Olympics, just as Putin was attacking Georgia.
You know, the same Putin in whose eyes Bush had “seen his soul”.
How’d that work out, Bush-boy? Sheesh, talk about a naive boob in way over his head…
46. SEW | August 9th, 2008 at 7:45 pm
45. gotsbrains?
No.
47. gotsbrains? | August 9th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
Communique from Putin:
“It is well known that Georgia has WMD, harbors terrorists, is an imminent threat to Russia, and was involved in the 9/11 attacks. Russia has every right to invade Georgia - and anyone who says otherwise is with the terrorists.”
48. SEW | August 9th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
gotjimmycarter
“The Russians, needless to say, are not neutral as between McCain and Obama. Ben Smith recounts that their Washington public relations firm contacted reporters to remind them that McCain foreign policy adviser Randy Scheunemann has lobbied for Georgia. Unbelievably, the Obama campaign aligned itself squarely with Vladimir Putin, putting out a statement that echoed the Russian PR firm’s:
“John McCain’s top foreign policy adviser lobbied for, and has a vested interest in, the Republic of Georgia and McCain has mirrored the position advocated by the government,’ said Obama spokesman Hari Sevugan.
In the common sense-free world of Barack Obama, advocating for a fledgling democracy that is trying to align itself with the West and is threatened by the imperial aspirations of Russia constitutes a “conflict of interest.”
The McCain camp responded with this statement:
The Obama campaign’s attacks on Randy Scheunemann are disgraceful. Mr. Scheunemann proudly represented a small democracy that is one of our closest allies in a very dangerous region. Today, many are dead and Georgia is in crisis, yet the Obama campaign has offered nothing more than cheap and petty political attacks that are echoed only by the Kremlin. The reaction of the Obama campaign to this crisis, so at odds with our democratic allies and yet so bizarrely in sync with Moscow, doesn’t merely raise questions about Senator Obama’s judgment–it answers them.
The American people once elected Jimmy Carter to defend their interests against Leonid Brezhnev and the Russian Empire. It will be interesting to see whether they are willing to do it again.”
Powerline blog
Make Love, not War
Edwards/Obama 08
49. phnx | August 9th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
Stas,
What were the ‘Russian peace making armies’ doing on sovereign Georian soil in the first place??
50. Jonas Yannie | August 9th, 2008 at 10:07 pm
The conflict in Georgia also brought attention to another complicating feature of McCain’s campaign: His ties to Republican operatives with extensive lobbying practices. Scheunemann was, until earlier this year, registered to lobby for the government of Georgia.
A public relations firm working for the Russian Federation pointed out Scheunemann’s lobbying past to reporters — a sign that McCain’s stance is not, for better or worse, being welcomed in Moscow — as did Obama’s campaign.
“John McCain’s top foreign policy adviser lobbied for, and has a vested interest in, the Republic of Georgia and McCain has mirrored the position advocated by the government,” said Obama spokesman Hari Sevugan, noting that the “appearance of a conflict of interest” was a consequence of McCain’s too-close ties to lobbyists.
51. SEW | August 9th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
McCain responds:
“The McCain camp responded with this statement:
The Obama campaign’s attacks on Randy Scheunemann are disgraceful. Mr. Scheunemann proudly represented a small democracy that is one of our closest allies in a very dangerous region. Today, many are dead and Georgia is in crisis, yet the Obama campaign has offered nothing more than cheap and petty political attacks that are echoed only by the Kremlin. The reaction of the Obama campaign to this crisis, so at odds with our democratic allies and yet so bizarrely in sync with Moscow, doesn’t merely raise questions about Senator Obama’s judgment–it answers them.”
Bye, bye Hussein.
52. Kahn | August 10th, 2008 at 12:44 am
Jonas Yannie, I think you posted that right after SEW explained what an asshole you’d be for posting something like that.
53. Mark Noonan | August 10th, 2008 at 12:56 am
Stas,
Give it up - Russia has no business in Georgia or South Ossetia.
54. Jonas Yannie | August 10th, 2008 at 1:00 am
SEW, Khan: It has nothing to do with defending a small democracy.
Once again, it is about the oil.
Georgia does not have any oil, but its location is vital for the transport of oil via pipelines.
McCain and Scheunamann are representing the Western Oil Companies through, not Georgia.
I don’t want to waste my time explaining it to you.
You can find the information yourself.
55. Kahn | August 10th, 2008 at 1:43 am
I’ve read it. I stand by my assessment. I don’t think we’ll go in. But your arguments are ludicrous. Everyone in both campaigns works for a lobby firm, or for the press, or is a staffer, or whatever. So what? No unions? No sierra Club? No Greenpeace? No Amnesty International? No MoveOn.org? We have a right to associate and we have a right to petition the government.
Get over the hate. Your parties almost total control of the press is hard to stomach already. You don’t want to start throwing Constitutional Rights out the window do you? I mean, besides guns - we know you want that right eliminated (as a party, no necessarily you).
And the oil is Russian oil anyways.
56. Nathan. H | August 10th, 2008 at 3:51 am
I’m surprised no one has mentioned Israel’s position in the situation. They had over 2000 “military advisors” in Georgia at the start of the mess. I’m just waiting for somebody to announce something like “Isreal has sent an armored division and a couple of fighter wings to Georgia” or something similar. Wouldn’t surprise me in the least. And for all the importance it is, the news still plays junk about celebrities.
57. congressive | August 10th, 2008 at 4:22 am
Today Bush called it a “disproportionate response” after RUSSIA was actually attacked by the rebels.
He knows all about disproportionate responses. Welcome to the new millennium of disproportionate responses. Republican and chickenhawk Democrats with their “boot up the ass” cowboy antics defined the rules of the game.
It’s ok when WE respond to NO attack. That’s different, somehow.
The American military industrial complex wrote the book. Don’t be so shocked when the rest of the world reads it.
58. bongoman | August 10th, 2008 at 7:02 am
The plot thickens…lemme guess…oil or the shipping thereof have anything to do with this?
59. bongoman | August 10th, 2008 at 7:32 am
Whoa…on further reading about this issue, it makes you wonder what Georgia was thinking here? What a colossal blunder.
60. neocon | August 10th, 2008 at 9:43 am
I think Powerline hit the nail on the head on this one.
It is often said that Obama is not ready to be President, but I don’t think this is exactly right. It seems pretty obvious that Obama, given his temperament, his self-regard, his blithe ignorance of history and of the material conditions of life on this planet, will never be ready to be President.
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives2/2008/08/021208.php
61. phnx | August 10th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
When you leftists support Putin, and his objective to intimidate fledgling democracies, as well as control the free flow of oil to Europe your really reveal your hatred of the west and your love of tyranny. We are not at all surprised.
Putin want to control Europe by control of gas and oil. If you don’t think so, remeber what he did to the Ukraine by shutting off their gas supplies during the winter of 2006.
Obama’s support of Putin’s position is also very revealing.
62. Jeremiah | August 10th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Poor Georgia…I think the President should order a secret attack on Russia and make them a sink-hole.
Meanwhile, as Georgia, the poor Tibetans fight for their rights the same.
63. congressive | August 10th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
Georgia admits they shouldn’t have punched Russia in the kneecap and calls a ceasefire.
Russia isn’t buying it yet. They still have industrial military complex bombs to “abate” and soldiers to train in active combat. Bush says Russia overreacted before Halliburton could lock down the no-bid supply chain and infrastructure rebuilding contracts.
“Fighting erupted after Georgia attempted to retake control of South Ossetia, a small pro-Russian separatist province, on Thursday night. Russia poured tanks and troops across its southern border into Georgia to push Tbilisi’s troops back.” What exactly did they think Russia would do? This would be like Canada attempting to retake control of Fort Niagara. It’s just a little place, not much there, really. Used to be under British control as late as the 19th century. What would the U.S. do if Canada tried THAT? Just shrug it off?
It’s all a big distraction, anyway. While you people are freaking out over this little skirmish, THIS IS NOW GOING ON while Olympic athletes and politician’s sexual liasons occupy your simple minds.
Sheep. And soon-to-be-screwed sheep at that.
64. SEW | August 10th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
“It’s all a big distraction, anyway. While you people are freaking out over this little skirmish.”
Yea , right congressive. 2000 civilians murdered in 2 days and you’re sooo concerned about 4,000 American troop deaths in 7 years creating a democracy in the Middle East.
And as usual, you side with the tyrants. And anything anti-American.
65. SEW | August 10th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
“And soon-to-be-screwed sheep at that.”
Only in your socialist fascist dreams.
66. Mark Noonan | August 10th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
It is amazing, and rather depressing, the way our lefties are so quick to find fault with the democracy in this incident and so willing - based on their hatred of the West - to give Russia’s tyrannical, imperialist regime a pass.
This isn’t about Ossetia, or Georgia, or oil - it is about Russia intimidating its border States to reduce them to vassalage. They want to teach not Georgia, but all of the former Soviet Republics a lesson - to toe the Russian line at all times and consider themselves de-facto part of a new Russian Empire.
It is time for the West to stand up, or suffer a signal defeat - China, greedy for Taiwan, is watching. Iran, greedy for the Gulf States, is watching. Venezuela, greedy for dominance of South America, is watching. Every tinpot dictator out there who eyes his neighbors territory is watching to see just how the free world will react to a tyranny attacking a democracy.
67. Jonas Yannie | August 10th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
Stand up with what, Mark?
We have no more boots on the ground?
The US cannot do anything if it wanted to.
Bush destroyed the military by trying to take Iraqi oil by force. Meanwhile, Putin, using nothing more than diplomacy, has secured oil rights for his country from the Middle East.
This incident in Georgia is sour grapes by Western oil companies who are fighting mad that they were outmaneuvered by Russian diplomacy.
68. SEW | August 10th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
“Russian diplomacy”
Sour grapes by western oil companies. Russian diplomacy.
Maybe you can be Secretary of State for the Hussein administration.
69. SEW | August 10th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
congressive, Joanie
Check Hussein’s web site before making more idiotic statements. He is switching horses again. He doesn’t perform well at 3 a.m. without a teleprompter.
Obama called for direct talks among all sides and said the United States, the U.N. Security Council and other parties should try to help bring about a peaceful resolution.
“I condemn Russia’s aggressive actions and reiterate my call for an immediate ceasefire,” Obama said in a statement.
“Russia must stop its bombing campaign, cease flights of Russian aircraft in Georgian airspace, and withdraw its ground forces from Georgia.”
Here’s his original statement:
“I strongly condemn the outbreak of violence in Georgia, and urge an immediate end to armed conflict,” Obama said in a written statement. “Now is the time for Georgia and Russia to show restraint and to avoid an escalation to full-scale war. Georgia’s territorial integrity must be respected
70. FmrMarine | August 10th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
jonASS yanni
>>>Bush destroyed the military by trying to take Iraqi oil by force.>>>
What a TOTAL load of BS, spoken by a MORON!
71. Nikolay | August 10th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
2000 civilians murdered in 2 days and you’re sooo concerned about 4,000 American troop deaths in 7 years creating a democracy in the Middle East
You do understand you’re talking about civilians killed by Georgia, do you?
72. Kaha kaladze | August 10th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
This is really terrible
http://georgianwar.blogspot.com
i found a lot of info about this war here
73. SEW | August 10th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
“You do understand you’re talking about civilians killed by Georgia, do you?”
Why would the Russians drop blank bombs and use blank ammo?
74. bongoman | August 10th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
So the Georgians initiated bombing of the South Ossetian capital killing up to 1500 people and destroying the capital?
Remember that Georgia attacked a civilian city at night here after Saakaschvilly claimed to be seeking peaceful solutions.
The refugees flee to Russian North Ossetia not to Tibilsi.
To criticise Georgia here is not to praise Russia. To me there are no good guys in this fight.
75. Jonas Yannie | August 10th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
Here is a link to an article from 2004 that will give some background to what is happening in Georgia.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/FH26Ag01.html
76. gotsbrains? | August 10th, 2008 at 6:11 pm
60. neocon -
“It is often said that Obama is not ready to be President, but I don’t think this is exactly right. It seems pretty obvious that Obama, given his temperament, his self-regard, his blithe ignorance of history and of the material conditions of life on this planet, will never be ready to be President.”
You’re kidding, right? Obama’s “ignorance of history”? Are you kidding?? I am quite sure Sen Obama possesses at least 10 times the knowledge of history of Mr Bush, who probably slept thru most of his history classes, and who rarely shows intellectual curiosity in anything other than partying. I am also quite sure Mr Bush has only the slimmest knowledge of Georgia, Georgian history, or even where Georgia is located. No doubt, he’d probably think you were referring to the Peach state.
And Obama is ignorant of the “material conditions of life on this planet”? You do know that Mr Obama grew up in a modest single-parent household, lived in Indonesia (one of the poorer countries on earth), and is descended from goat herders in Kenya - don’t you? Mr Bush, by contrast, grew up pampered, sheltered, and privileged in Connecticut as a member of one of the wealthiest aristocracy in the country. He has spent his entire life in a bubble. Just about everything he ever did in life was handed to him thru Bush family connections. Upon being president, he’d only ever traveled outside the country once - a vacation to a Mexican resort. And yet, you say Obama is “ignorant of the conditions of this planet”? Tell me son - what planet do you live on?
And Obama’s “self regard” is out of proportion to Mr Bush’s? Again - are you kidding? You do know that Mr Bush has spent more time working out, taking naps, and taking vacations than say, working on energy plans, working on capturing bin Laden, or studying up on any of the things he’s supposed to be knowledgeable about to adequately do his job - don’t you? I guess serving the American people comes a distant second to Mr Bush’s personal relaxation - is that “self regard” enough for you?
And while you’re pathetically attempting to use this crisis in Georgia to somehow bash Obama as unprepared, you do know Bush has spent the last 4 days watching sports and fooling around in Beijing while Georgia is getting bombed - don’t you? He’s also been palling around in Beijing with his good buddy Putin - or “Vlad”, as Bush likes to call him. In fact, the way the two were slapping each other on the back at the opening ceremonies, Bush was probably asking when Vlad was going to come over to go fishing again at Mr Bush’s luxurious vacation compound in Kennebunkport.
In crisis after crisis during his entire presidency, Bush has been caught out of position, flat-footed, and unprepared to respond. From his “deer in the headlights” stare while continuing to read to children for 15 minutes after he was informed that terrorists were attacking New York and DC, to his vacationing and attending John McCain’s birthday party while a force 5 hurricane plowed thru New Orleans, and now to his clowning around at the Olympics while war breaks out in Georgia, this president has been consistently slow to respond to crises, or even to comprehend them. And yet, you say Obama is unprepared to handle crisis? Sheesh. You guys really live in an alternate reality. I would suggest you get off of Powerline and rejoin the real world.
77. Fredrick Schwartz | August 10th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
32. Mark Noonan | August 9th, 2008 at 1:22 am
Sweet move Noonan way to get around that whole Plaestinian elections thing.
78. cam | August 10th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
As I understand it, part of the dispute Georgia had with this separatist movement in South Ossetia was the loss of revenue by the Georgian government who was opposed to a tax free zone there. Could a case of taxation without representation be made? I certainly don’t know the answer at this time.
But it appears that if Israeli advisors are in Georgia, Georgian troops supported the ill conceived war in Iraq, there is a key connection to Russian oil being shipped to the west and its not surprising who we have sided with.
It appears that this conflict has been simmering since before the break up of the Soviet Union and the various parties have traded hostile fire several times in recent history. Yet this is the first time we have seen it make the front pages here in the United States. Makes me suspect it is a case of following the money (oil supply).
79. SEW | August 10th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
So gotbrains?, name states 51-57 for us. Thanks.
80. gotsbrains? | August 10th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
SEW -
lame lame lame. When Sen Obama said “57 states”, he was clearly referring to the number of primary contests. The number of contests well exceeds 50 because you also have Dems abroad, Virgin Islands, Guam, DC, Puerto Rico, etc, voting in primaries. If you actually believe Barack Obama - magna cum laude graduate of Harvard - doesn’t know there are 50 states, then you are truly delusional.
But while we’re at it, maybe someone can tell Mr McCain that Czechoslovakia hasn’t existed for more than a decade, that Iraq shares no border with Pakistan, and that al-qaeda doesn’t train in Iran. Oh yeah, that’s what Sen Lieberman is for:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWX5u69hmzY
81. Jonas Yannie | August 10th, 2008 at 6:46 pm
I found a more recent article that give great detail of the recent history in Georgia including the military strengths.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/JG16Ag01.html
82. neocon | August 10th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
gotbrains?,
Thank you for validating the very low regard I have for your opinion. That post was simply an embarrassing display of irrational BDS drivel and nothing more.
The Democrats have nominated a charlatan who gives a good speech completely exposing the shallowness of intellectual liberals. Dean, Pelosi, Reid and Obama are the most ineffective, most compromised and the most intellectually weak leadership group in our nations history.
have a nice day
neocon
83. neocon | August 10th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
Anybody who says the following, IS NOT qualified to be President. Period.
We can’t drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on 72 degrees at all times … and then just expect that other countries are going to say OK,” Obama said.
84. cam | August 10th, 2008 at 7:04 pm
neocon,
So, let’s drive our SUV’s, eat as much as we want and keep our thermostat on 72 degrees at all times and tell everyone else to go to hell. Will that work for you?
85. neocon | August 10th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
cam,
The fact that you even seek an answer to that question is enough to question your lack of intellectual prowess, but it actually does qualify you for a position within the Obama campaign.
Congrats
neocon
86. gotsbrains? | August 10th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
82. neocon -
“… the most compromised and the most intellectually weak leadership group in our nations history.”
Intellectually weak? Well, we’ve already talked about Bush’s intellectual capabilities (or lack thereof). And we’ve also already talked about Obama’s intellect: magna cum laude from Harvard, president of the prestigious Harvard Law Review.
But we haven’t yet talked about McCain’s intellectual credentials. You know, John McCain… who ranked 894th out of 899 students in his graduating class. Now there’s some intellectual fire power for ya!
But seriously, neocon, I am curious about one thing. You seem to dutifully parrot the party-line smear that Senator Obama is woefully unprepared to be president. So I am curious what you consider “well prepared” is when it comes to running for president. Is it successful business experience? A long long political career in Washington? Or what? Just what experience must you have to be considered well prepared to be president. Really, I would like to hear your opinion on this.
87. SEW | August 10th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
“So, let’s drive our SUV’s, eat as much as we want and keep our thermostat on 72 degrees at all times and tell everyone else to go to hell. Will that work for you?” cam
Add private jets, 100 foot boats, multiple mansions and we have…..Al…..Gore.
Gotsbrains?, I never realized a primary contest was a state. That explanation of yours also explains the question mark after your name. Can you also explain all the uhs, duhs, you knows, interjected in the middle of sentences for me? Is that a state or a primary contest also?
Thanks.
88. neocon | August 10th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
gotbrains?
You again, confuse scholastic achievement with intellectual ability. The two are mutually exclusive concepts.
Obama is an unseasoned and untested candidate. I like candidates who have been through the public or privates fires long enough to have left behind a record of which to guage their future reactions when in battle.
89. Jackie | August 10th, 2008 at 8:02 pm
When is our fearless leader going to step up? He is still our president, right?
90. Mark Noonan | August 10th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
cam,
Just as a matter of curiosity, other than the comment on this blog mentioning, do you or anyone else have a source for the alleged Israeli troops in Georgia? I find the story rings false, and may be part of an anti-Semitic ploy by the Russian government.
91. Mark Noonan | August 10th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
Jackie,
With less than six months in office, President Bush really can’t lead the charge here - though the matter would have been simplified if Obama had the sense to go along with McCain’s proposals; no outgoing President wants to start something this large, this late in the game unless both is prospective successors are ok with it.
92. Mark Noonan | August 10th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
Fred,
Huh?
93. congressive | August 10th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
no outgoing President wants to start something this large, this late in the game unless both his prospective successors are ok with it.
Or, isn’t planning on “going out.”
IF THIS HAPPENS there will be no election this fall.
Don’t rule it out.
SEW SEW SEW… what the hullaballoo are you talking about? My link wasn’t about Iraq, it was about war with Iran… there is a difference.
And “socialist fascist dreams”??? Whaaa??? Reeeaally??? You do know those are completely mutually exclusive political philosophies by very definition, right? Or have you bought the bull “if it’s hate, it’s liberal”?
94. SEW | August 10th, 2008 at 9:08 pm
“It’s all a big distraction, anyway. While you people are freaking out over this little skirmish, THIS IS NOW GOING ON”
Who said anything about Iraq? Not me. This thread is about Georgia/Russia, and thus “you people freaking out over this little skirmish” would logically be referring to Georgia/Russia, not Iran. Obviously logic doesn’t apply with you.
“What constitutes a definition of fascism and fascist governments is a highly disputed subject that has proved complicated and contentious. Historians, political scientists, and other scholars have engaged in long and furious debates concerning the exact nature of fascism and its core tenets.
Similarly, fascism as an ideology is also hard to define.”
So you don’t know what it is, but it’s definitely mutually exclusive from socialism—by definition even though it’s not definable.
Talk about hullabaloo.
95. Jackie | August 10th, 2008 at 9:17 pm
Sew,
The basic concepts of Socialism and Fascism are taught in high school; at least they were when I was in school. In other words, a 12th grader would know that they are opposites.
It really annoys me how conservative throw these words around but do not have a basic understand of their meanings. I guess its just another scare tactic to win votes.
96. Mark Noonan | August 10th, 2008 at 9:18 pm
congressive,
Don’t be such a fool. Seriously - join the real world.
97. Jackie | August 10th, 2008 at 9:27 pm
“though the matter would have been simplified if Obama had the sense to go along with McCain’s proposals”
Mark, both Obama and McCain have denounced Russia’s actions and have asked for restraint. Although Obama did talk more about specifics than McCain.
98. SEW | August 10th, 2008 at 9:34 pm
Jackie,
“…the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley’s broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else … Except for the relatively small number of Fascist sympathisers, almost any English person would accept ‘bully’ as a synonym for ‘Fascist’. That is about as near to a definition as this much-abused word has come.”[25]
“It really annoys me how conservative [sic]throw these words around but do not have a basic understand [sic] of their meanings. I guess its just another scare tactic to win votes.”
99. CanadianObserver | August 10th, 2008 at 9:40 pm
95. Jackie | August 10th, 2008 at 9:17 pm
———————————-
Don’t know if it is a coincidence or not but over the last 8 years there has been a definite dumbing down of discourse emanating from the right wing faction.
100. Jackie | August 10th, 2008 at 9:43 pm
Well Sew I guess there are a lot of people out there with degrees that are totally meaningless; their work a total waist of time. Thanks for clearing that up.
I like the footnote; could you tell me where you got that quote?
101. SEW | August 10th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
The waist is the part of the abdomen between the rib cage and hips.
Thanks for playing the liberal intellectual.
102. Jackie | August 10th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
CanadianObserver,
The dumbing down really began in the 80s with Reagan. Although conservatives blame Carter. Facts, those pesky facts, don’t support their beliefs.
103. Jackie | August 10th, 2008 at 9:52 pm
Hey, my spelling isn’t great. I admit that.
But like a typical conservative, you engage in insults- which is fine. I think it speaks more to your ignorance than to my ignorance.
104. SEW | August 10th, 2008 at 9:57 pm
Liberal intellectual is an insult?
105. SEW | August 10th, 2008 at 10:05 pm
I like the footnote; could you tell me where you got that quote?
Copy and paste to Google and George Orwell pops up.
106. Jackie | August 10th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
“Liberal intellectual is an insult?”
No, its not an insult, but I consider myself more of a Socialist, Fascist, Communist, Social Anarchist, Capitalist, Feudalist Liberal.
107. SEW | August 10th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
“Socialists: Defenders of old-style capitalism (example, Sir Ernest Benn) maintain that Socialism and Fascism are the same thing. Some Catholic journalists maintain that Socialists have been the principal collaborators in the Nazi-occupied countries. The same accusation is made from a different angle by the Communist party during its ultra-Left phases. In the period 1930-35 the Daily Worker habitually referred to the Labour Party as the Labour Fascists. This is echoed by other Left extremists such as Anarchists. Some Indian Nationalists consider the British trade unions to be Fascist organizations.” George Orwell [socialist]
So much for your 12th grade education, ““It really annoys me how conservative [sic]throw these words around but do not have a basic understand [sic] of their meanings.” And congressive’s “complete mutual exclusivity” of socialism and fascism? Anyway, thanks for playing the liberal intellectuals.
108. Jackie | August 10th, 2008 at 10:25 pm
George Orwell was one person, one opinion. There are plenty of people who would challenge his statement. We can all copy & paste too, its not impressive.
109. Jackie | August 10th, 2008 at 10:35 pm
Sew, do you have any idea of the social context of Orwell’s statement?
Catholic leaders have always been pro-fascist, so it is of no surprise that they would smear Socialism.
Also Mussolini came to power under the guise that he was for the common, working man- so it is again no surprise that labor unions would adopt the fascist term. Eventually they dropped it.
110. SEW | August 10th, 2008 at 10:45 pm
That’s not one person or one opinion. That is 1. Orwell 2. Ernest Benn 3. Catholic journalists 4. Communist Party 5. Daily Worker 6. Anarchrists 7. Indian Nationalists 8. SEW
Do you need a definition of “complete mutual exclusivity?” Or “In other words, a 12th grader would know that they are opposites.”
And remember, the waist is the part of the abdomen between the rib cage and hips. And if you can copy and paste why did you ask where the quote came from?
Thanks for playing the intellectual.
111. Jackie | August 10th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
After the quotes ended in your post it says George Orwell. So Orwell said it, right? That would make it his opinion. Orwell does not speak FOR all the people he mentioned, he is stating his opinion of fascism and socialism based off of those populations and his observations of those populations in relation to his argument. Have you researched each of the populations he listed and verified his claim?
112. congressive | August 10th, 2008 at 11:05 pm
Seriously - join the real world.
But, Mark, I like it here. It’s a hoot.
SEW, I get it. You didn’t click the link, but just thought you’d throw out the 4000 dead Americans for some reason.
Nice Wikipedia cut-and-paste, very liberal of you. I thought you’d have trusted Conservapedia.com much more, where it says clearly “The name “fascism” derives from an ancient Roman symbol, the fasces, a group of birch rods bundled together with an axe. It symbolizes strength in unity; the rods are weak by themselves but strong when bundled together. Fascism is at the extreme right of the political spectrum.“
So, as soon as you can find where socialism is also at the extreme right, I’ll see your point.
Check and mate.
113. Kahn | August 11th, 2008 at 1:16 am
congressive, National Socialist Party was what?
OK, here’s my take on the facts. Just the facts. I’m still open as to a solution. But doubtful we’re going to do much. BDS makes rational discussion difficult.
1. Geoirgia breaks away from the Soviet Union.
2. Two parts of Georgia seek independence.
3. Georgia refuses. South Ossetia is one of these areas.
4. Pipelines through Georgia can allow gas to reach the Black Sea from the Caspian Region shutting out Russia.
5. Georgia tries to join NATO
6. Russia is FURIOUS about Georgia wanting to join NATO
7. NATO, in the face of Russian anger puts of a decision on letting Georgia join
8. The Black Sea is about the only feasible way to project sustainable power into the area.
9. To get to the Black Sea you need to cross through some other nation. Water, the Danube or most likely to get warships in the Bosphorus, which passes right through Istanbul.
10. Russia has been supporting the rebels in both disputed regions of Georgia
11. Georgia chose to quash the rebellion and move on the rebels. This is a sovereign right. Heck, Clinton killed 84 Americans at Waco in a similar move.
12. The Russians decide to make their covert support for the rebels overt and attack Georgia.
Why would Russia do that?
1. control of the pipeline
2. Message to states seeking to join NATO
3. Still not happy about end of USSR
4. War with a totally controlled press can be used at home to drive nationalism
Now, please resist the temptation to twist these facts into something about Bush. Just what do you think we should do?
1. Nothing?
2. Military support. (Our soldiers and Marines are pretty busy? But the Navy and Air Force are available.
3. Diplomatic efforts?
4. Diplomatic efforts tied to sanctions?
5. Diplomatic efforts combined with military? (?)
114. cam | August 11th, 2008 at 1:45 am
Mark,
I admit I need an education on this issue. Less than one week ago I hadn’t even heard of this conflict.
And Russia has had a history of anti-Semitism. However, disagreeing with the actions of Israel does not make one anti-Semitic.
So, I would accept any information that is superior to what I have accessed so far.
I’m just trying to understand why we took Georgia’s side on this affair. We seem to have a recent history of allowing oil and other economic concerns to overtake any concern for human rights despite the copious self serving testimony tom the contrary.
115. Mark Noonan | August 11th, 2008 at 1:51 am
Cam,
We are taking Georgia’s side because Georgia is a democracy, has been a loyal ally in the War on Terrorism and it is threatened by a tyrannical regime - oil has nothing to do with this at all.
116. cam | August 11th, 2008 at 2:04 am
neocon,
Obama can see that the United States uses a disproportionate amount of the world’s resources and that the growing countries including China and India, among others, will eventually be using significantly more than they currently do. On a per capita basis they are not likely to catch up to us. However, due the fact that they have substantially larger populations any significant change in consumption in these countries and others like them will lead to exhausting of the earths ability to produce resources and absorb pollution. As such, Obama has the foresight to realize now is the time to begin working on solutions instead of blindly leading our world to mutual destruction. As such he is eminently prepared for the presidency of the United States.
117. Mark Noonan | August 11th, 2008 at 2:07 am
Kahn,
Its rather tricky - as it turns out, we can’t send an aircraft carrier into the Black Sea as that is prohibited by the treaties governing passage of the Dardanelles. We could, if pressed to it, send some cruisers and destroyers through, but probably not swiftly enough to make an impression on the immediate crisis - plus they would be without air cover unless we could get several squadrons of fighters into Georgia with sufficient support services to fly them.
And so…
We freeze whatever Russian assets we can, embargo Russian exports to the United States, surge three or four ballistic missile submarines in a very open manner and figure out a way to get at least a brigade of US airborne troops into Tiblisi…a tripwire telling Putin that any push into Georgia proper will result in war with the United States.
Do this, and Russia’s whole gambit in Georgia fails - the idea is clearly one of intimidating Russia’s border States into compliance with Russian foreign and defense policy…by forging tighter ties between Georgia and the United States even at the risk of war, we’ll have shown the border States they can count on us against Russian aggression.
118. cam | August 11th, 2008 at 2:14 am
Ok Mark,
Then why is Georgia unwilling to let go of South Ossetia? It appears that the people of South Ossetia want independence. Ultimately, democracy is the will of the people.
And why has this conflict among so many others gained our attention?
Thirdly, what has Georgia done to fight terrorism?
119. Dennis | August 11th, 2008 at 3:22 am
Cam says: “I admit I need an education on this issue. Less than one week ago I hadn’t even heard of this conflict.”
I think that goes for a lot of us. But for the several hours of reading I did this morning, combined with my prior understanding of the region and its history, including wandering about over 30 yrs ago through several Soviet satellite states, I find myself agreeing mostly with Khan here. Moreover I believe we are looking at a situation for which neither traditional liberal or conservative mindsets or tool kits are adequate to the problem developing now.
But SAR was correct earlier that the US has by its preemptive actions foreclosed certain options/advantages that would be desirable now — the most obvious being the full confidence of NATO (and the larger world) in America’s good judgment and a military that isn’t stretched and attenuated from prolonged deployment in Iraq.
Some brief thoughts on the final lines of Khan’s post 113 above, regarding what we should do. He correctly invokes diplomatic effort. But where does the US stand at present with diplomacy? These points I extracted from Nicholas Kristoff’s column today in NYT:
# The United States has more musicians in its military bands than it has diplomats.
# The entire American diplomatic corps — about 6,500 people — is less than the staffing of a single aircraft carrier group yet Congress isn’t interested in paying for a larger Foreign Service.
# More than 1,000 American diplomatic positions are vacant because the Foreign Service is so short-staffed, but Congress is refusing to finance even modest new hiring.
# Some 1,100 Foreign Service personnel could be hired for the cost of a single C-17 military cargo plane. The Navy and the Air Force are seizing upon China’s rise as an excuse to grab tens of billions of dollars for the F-22, for an advanced destroyer, for new attack submarines. But we’re failing to invest minuscule sums to build good will among Chinese.
“In short, the United States is hugely overinvesting in military tools and underinvesting in diplomatic tools. The result is a lopsided foreign policy that antagonizes the rest of the world and is ineffective in tackling many modern problems.”
Read the rest here: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/opinion/10kristof.html?_r=1&em&oref=slogin
120. congressive | August 11th, 2008 at 4:26 am
Rupert Murdoch’s Wall Street Journal has the inside scoop on why we are sooo pro-Georgia when they fired first, and continue to deny the democratic will of South Ossetia.
HERE’S RUPERT’S REASONING, not mine.
121. congressive | August 11th, 2008 at 4:51 am
And here’s how yet another Bush failure is actually ANOTHER BUSH SUCCESS!
Goodnight, you princes of Dubai, you kings of the New World Order. Nouri Kamel al-Maliki will be up late tonight counting his billions.
Don’t forget to keep an eye on the sequel to Operation Brimstone. The more likely an Obama victory, the more likely a pre-election strike.
122. Scorpyar | August 11th, 2008 at 7:09 am
Dear friends! We are watching the Great Lie from Internet! The reality is that Saakashvili FIRST bombed Tskhinvali on the Day of the Olympian Games! Georgian soldiers SHOT Russian Peace-making armies, peaceful population FIRST and only AFTER this Russia moved army to prevent further destruction. Remember Kosovo, and the US position in that case!
If you understand the reality, that means your have a free mind.
P.S. Please, send this message to all your friends. Thank you!
The only thing i can say.. i fell fear in my heart about getting world war 3 near.. as truth 1 of my friend get dead in south osetia when Georgia starting assault…
Sry for my english..
123. SEW | August 11th, 2008 at 10:13 am
Amazing how progressive liberals [now those words are mutually exclusive] think that racist, fascist and homophobe apply only to conservatives, when in fact they are much more descriptive of themselves.
124. Jackie | August 11th, 2008 at 11:35 am
SEW, don’t forget misogynists- conservatives hate women and their messy bodies. Conservatives will not rest until they own every uterus in the country.
125. congressive | August 11th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Scorpyar,
Don’t worry too much. Some of us here in the States understand the big picture.
Some of us know that, while the situation is very complicated, Georgia attacked first.
Some of us know the Russians have their agenda, while an OpEd by President Saakashvili is, by nature, propaganda.
Some of us know that this is yet another horrific failure on the part of the neocons currently in power.
Some of us here mourn your lost friend.
126. MARK KOLLRA | August 11th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
GEORGIAN MILITARY:
TOTAL PERSONNEL: 26,9000
MAIN BATTLE TANKS: 82
ARMORED PERSONNEL CARRIERS: 139
COMBAT AIRCRAFT: ONLY 7 PLANES
HEAVY ARTILLERY PIECES: 95
NUCLEAR WARHEADS: 2,027
RUSSIAN MILITARY:
TOTAL PERSONNEL: 641,000
MAIN BATTLE TANKS: 6,717
ARMORED PERSONNEL CARRIERS: 6,388
COMBAT AIRCRAFT: 1,206
HEAVY ARTILLERY PIECES: 7,550
NUCLEAR WARHEADS: 2,207
NO IMAGE OF CONTROL OVER EITHER SIDE RIGHT NOW (08-11-2008).
RUSSIAN TROOPS ARE ADVANCING FURTHER NORTH INTO GEORGIA.
THE UNITED NATIONS PEACE KEEPERS ARE CALLING FOR A CEASE-
FIRE, AS RUSSIA IS CALLING THEIR ATTACK ON THE BREAK AWAY
PROVINCE OF GEORGIA, AN ALL-OUT WAR. AS USUAL, THE U.S.
PENTAGON IS FAVORING THE WEAKER SIDE OF THIS MILITARY
BATTLE. AS OF NOW (08-11-2008), THE RUSSIAN AIRFORCE IS
BOMBARDING GEORGIA. GEORGIA’S MILITARY IS FIRERING
ARTILLERY SHELLS AT RUSSIA AFTER DARK SINCE THIS WAR
BEGAN ON 08-08-2008. RUSSIAN’S PRESEDENT GLADEMIRE PUTON
IS GETTING REALY PISSED OFF FOR THE REASON THAT THE U.S.
IS AIRLIFTING GEORGIAN TROOPS FROM IRAQ TO GEORGIA TO
HELP TO FIGHT THIS INCREASING LARGE SCALE WAR. FOX NEWS
SAID THAT THE REAL DANGER HERE IS ABOUT HOW FAST THIS
WAR IS SPREADING. ON 08-09-2008, THE RUSSIANS TOLD THE
GEORGIAS TO PUT DOWN THEIR WEAPONS OR BE ATTACKED EVEN
MORE. THIS ATTACK IS NOT RELEVENT TO SHIELD INNOCENT
WOMEN AND CHILDREN MEANING THAT WHO EVER IS IN THE WAY
OF THIS WAR IS IN GRAVE DANGER OF BEING KILLED.
ATTACKS FROM RUSSIA HAS DISTROYED MANY BUILDINGS AND
APPARTMENTS COMPLEXES, LEAVING MANY WOMEN AND CHILDREN
DEAD IN THIS WAKE. RUSSIA WANTS TO OWN GEORGIA, WHILE
GEORGIA WANTS TO KEEP ITS INDEPENDENTS SINCE THE SOVIET
BREAK UP IN 1988. . . . . . THAT IS WHAT THIS WAR IS
ABOUT - SO THEY SAY. OR IS IT FOR ANY OTHER REASON SUCH
AS ONLY THE PENTAGON WILL NOT DISCLOSE. TELL ME THAT
AREA 51 DOES’NT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH ANY WARS THAT
HAPPEN AROUND THE WORLD. THE U.S. GREATEST COMMODITY
IS OIL. ITS AN ADDICTION. WE DEPEND ON OT. GEORGIA
IS A GREAT SUPPLIER OF THE BADLY NEEDED OIL THAT THE
U.S. NEEDS AND AS FAST AS THIS WAR IS ESCULATING, GEORGIA
NEEDS TO USE THEIR NUKES A.S.A.P.
127. js | August 11th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
shoot, georgia has enough nukes to make the entire hemisphere glow for hundreds of years….david and goliath all over again?
128. ho-hum | August 11th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
So Noonan, you’d like to send a carrier to the region, huh? How many more pointless wars would you like this nation to get involved in?
And by the way, are you aware that the Georgians started this conflict by bombing the Osetians first? So why the hell do you want us to pile in on their side? Cause you don’t like Russia? Oh, I see. Great plan.
Dumb, dumb, dumb. Just what I’d expect from the kind of person who still thinks the invasion of Iraq was a super idea.
And by the way, I’m no fan of Russia, but now that Bush has overtly backed Georgia (the instigators of this particular conflict) we have made a completely boneheaded play that has destroyed what little credibility we have in the region and is going to greatly hamper any future diplomacy between us and Russia.
But hey, I understand that your attitude has always been shoot first and figure the details out later, Mr. Noonan. How wonderfully cavalier you are with other people’s lives. Jesus would be just like you if he were back today.
129. congressive | August 11th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
CAP LOCK KEY… JUST ABOVE THE LEFT SHIFT KEY…PRESS IT! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, PRESS IT NOW!
Ah, that’s better. Yeah, nukes are the answer. That’ll fix everything. Forever.
130. ho-hum | August 11th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
Noonan, your post #117 above is really one of your dumbest every. Airdropping US troops into Tiblisi? US nuclear subs brought into position? Sanctions, freezing Russian assets? This would be comedy gold if you didn’t appear to be serious. You want us to do all this to back up a cruddy central asian state that started this conflict by bombarding Russian citizens in Osetia? Way to go Captain Insanely Dangerous Over-reaction. Pure genius.
131. bongoman | August 11th, 2008 at 5:32 pm
What was Saakashvili thinking, embarking on a self-defeating war like this?
Did Washington give the green light on the Georgian attack? Or was Saakashvili just gambling that the West would come to his rescue against Russia?
At the least, Georgia has lost South Ossetia.
132. js | August 11th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
whats so pointless about helping free men stay free? nato should be johnny on the spot on this issue…georgia wants to ally with nato…we should help defend them
133. ho-hum | August 11th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
I see js, so why don’t you feel the same way for the ethnic Russians in South Ossetia who were bombed out of their homes last week and then shot at by Georgian troops as they fled across the border to Russia?
Georgia may want to join NATO, but NATO doesn’t want anything to do with them. They were refused membership because of the very thing we are now seeing - NATO felt that Georgia’s dominion over South Ossetia (where almost 70% of the population are ethnic Russians) was untenable.
“helping free men stay free” - what an idiot.
134. Some Assembly Required | August 11th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
117. Mark Noonan | August 11th, 2008 at 2:07 am
Yo mark, What do you think China would think of US troop build up so close to home? Sweet jay-sus man, this post spells out the start of world war 3.
It’s this exact line of thinking that got us into the mess in Iraq. You focus on Russia because they started the aggression (which makes even a two bit redneck stop to think) and forget about every other country in the region. The US has already gone into Iraq, were in Afghanistan. If troops start mounting up where your suggesting it will make countries surrounding Russia very very nervous. It will also make our current allies wonder if there is any country we will not strike.
Now, These neighboring countries will also be tied into the conflict because of the refugees causing numerous problems with there economies, and SOL. Not to mention AQ. You now give them a third area in which to fight you. This is not without irony considering we funded and trained them in fighting Russia, and now they would come to Russia to fight us.
Any military action on the part of the US in Georgia against Russia would cause a cluster F$*% the likes of which the world has never seen. I’d say or ever see, but once the re-building was complete I’m sure some fool like yourself will think he has all the answers and bring us back to square one yet again.
135. Kahn | August 11th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
“16. cam | August 11th, 2008 at 2:04 am
Obama can see that the United States uses a disproportionate amount of the world’s resources”
Cam - But we use those resources more efficiently than any other country. We are the most productive country on Earth. That translates to this: we use less energy, and less material, use fewer man hours, and produce less pollution per unit of product.
Producing anywhere else may cost less in labor costs ( but maybe not.) But it will almost certainly cost more in energy and materials and cause more pollution.
This is a complex argument. But you’d think a brilliant Harvard educated guy like Obama would get it.
136. Kahn | August 11th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
125. congressive | August 11th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
“…Some of us know that, while the situation is very complicated, Georgia attacked first.”
You KNOW that huh? Fired on who? People in Rebellion in their own country.
Congressive and ho-hum - what appropriate names. No solutions offered by either of you. Couldn’t even say “do nothing.” (one of my choices. Thanks for wasting space.
So you think talking crap like this will get your candidate elected? You think talking crap like this doesn’t expose you as the fools you are?
Whatever.
137. bongoman | August 11th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
Yeah, civilians in a separatist region are fair targets.
138. bongoman | August 11th, 2008 at 7:17 pm
If you trace back the first news reports from the region, it’s clear that Georgia, all the while talking peace, were planning their attack on South Ossetia.
The Georgian military commenced night shelling of a civilian city with relatively inaccurate MLRS.
There were US soldiers in Georgia last month although it is unclear whether Washington gave the green light for the South Ossetia barrage by Georgia.
It’s difficult to know what Saakashvili was thinking. He has certainly over played his hand.
Maybe he was foolishly thinking the US would come to his rescue ’cause of Georgian membership of the “coalition of the willing”?
The US gave the Georgian soldiers a ride home, but what else can they do?
Maybe he just thought the Russians wouldn’t react?
139. phnx | August 11th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
Anyone else notice that Nicolai, Stas, Kaha kaladze, Scorpyar have never posted here before and all of a sudden show up on the side of Russia ? Could this be the soft part of the cyber attack that Russian operatives are inflicting on their tiny neighbor.
It still boggles the mind that the usual leftist suspects on this site are supporting Russia’s right to invade a sovereign nation,,,for whatever reason.
Since the precedent is set, let’s invade Calgary to free these capitalists from the evil clutches of the effite socialists in Ottawa and Montreal. We will have to allow the Canadians to invade Vermont to free all of the socialists that are there from the evil clutches of the Bush Administration.
140. ho-hum | August 11th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
The simple fact is: GEORGIA STARTED THIS WAR BY BOMBING RUSSIAN CIVILLIANS IN THEIR OWN HOMES IN OSSETIA. THEY THEN ATTACKED REFUGEES AS THEY FLED ACCROSS THE BORDER TO RUSSIA. GOT IT?
Russia has had peace keepers in Ossetia since 1992 by mutual agreement with the Georgians and Russia has merely responded to last weeks attacks (launched while the rest of the world was watching the olympics opening). I don’t agree with Russia about a lot of things (most things actually), and I think they’re probably wrong to push on into Georgia itself but the fact is that 70% of the population in Ossetia is Russian and many of them carry Russian passports. They’ve been openly trying to gain independence since the fall of the USSR and Georgia has promised them autonomy. Instead of giving it to them last week they start shelling the province’s capital. What did you expect Russia to do?
So stop acting like Georgia is purer than the driven snow (it really makes you look dumb) and realize that this is a regional conflict which has NOTHING to do with us. Russia is a lousy country and one that I am not at all a fan of (as I have already stated above), but since you guys seem to be so in loooove with the Georgians (even though they spent a good part of last week massacring civilians), why don’t you get your asses on a plane and head over there to fight the Russian bear? Why are you guys always so quick to commit American troops to danger? What a lousy chicken-hawk crowd of keyboard warriors you all are.
If you’re so upset about poor little Georgia get your asses on a plane and put them in harms way. Do that before blathering nonsense about how the US should get involved.
141. phnx | August 11th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
What sis you expect the Russians to do? ho-hum
I agree that Georgia was wrong to attack its own people. But that didn’t justify an invasion by Russia. How about convening the security council to pressure the Georgians to stop? Or don’t you beleive in diplomacy? But this isn’t only about the Ossetians. And if you think it is you are naive.
Who has suggested that we commit troops to this incident? To me getting the US involved means heavy diplomacy. Rice has sent an envoy to the area and others to muster support in Europe. To allow the Russians to go unpunished for such an egregious act.
By punishment I don’t mean nuking them, but there are other economic sanctions that can be taken. Unfortunately as has been pointed out, the Germans are dependent upon Russian gas, and winter is on its way. This is precisely why Georgia is so important. Right now their pipelinesupplies only 110,000 b/day. Its pretty insignificant to world consumption, that’s why there is no spike in oil proces despite the violence.
However, they are building a pipeline which will carry 1 million barrels per day from Azerbaijan. The Russians are not happy about this. They want this oil to go through Russia, so that they can control the flow, and this keep Europe unser their thumb.
142. ho-hum | August 11th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
Wasn’t an invasion phnx, the Russians were already there as peacekeepers. You would know that if you’d taken the trouble to read up on this issue before mouthing off about it. The Russians see their own civillians getting bombed and shot as they flee, what are they supposed to do - write a letter? The Georgians screwed up, it’s their problem.
The chickehn-hawk keyboard warriors on this site have really made fools of themselves stating we should air-drop troops in, move nuclear subs to the region etc. Totally cavalier with American troops lives, no big surprise from the same crew who thought invading Iraq was a heck of a good idea.
143. ho-hum | August 11th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
phnx - “Who has suggested that we commit troops to this incident?”
Only Mark Noonan, the genius who runs this blog, see post #117 above:
There you have it - troops committed in the battlefield, the open threat of war, and nuclear subs lurking in the background to escalate this little party into Armgageddon. Right wing-nut foreign policy in a nutshell.
144. Kahn | August 11th, 2008 at 11:18 pm
bongoman - tell it to the dead kids Clinton killed in Waco.
I’m not even for going in, if you’d actually read. But I like to discuss the issues in an adult forum among knowledgeable people. MOST of the liberal posters here do not meet this criteria. Thr Russia/Georgian War is a serious issue. And you guys are idiots.
145. Kahn | August 11th, 2008 at 11:23 pm
ho hum, must say I haven’t seen you post here before either. Are you in Moscow?
How fortuitous that Russia had all those tanks sitting idling on the Georgian border waiting for the Georgians to try to assert control over their own territory.
Good thing Russia wasn’t just to the south of the Confederacy. Or it would be a Russian vassal state and the Union would be in ruins.
146. Kahn | August 11th, 2008 at 11:31 pm
bongo and hohum, I ask AGAIN.
Just what do you think we should do?
1. Nothing?
2. Military support?
3. Diplomatic efforts?
4. Diplomatic efforts tied to sanctions?
5. Diplomatic efforts combined with military? (?)
6. Some other brilliant Obamaesque solution? Maybe he could wave his hand and say “this is not the country you’re looking for. Move along.”
147. ho-hum | August 11th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
Kahn: “ho hum, must say I haven’t seen you post here before either. Are you in Moscow?”
Great reading comprehension skills Kahn, I see you missed the three times above where I said I am personally against most of Russia’s foreign policy.
Also, nice way to ignore every single factual and logical point I made and instead focus on a sleazy ad hominem attack. Just shows your desperation.
And by the way, I have posted on this site several times before. It’s funny to watch you guys sputter up your half-baked dinosaur ideologies when confronted with facts and logic.
PS - What is it with right-wingers and your paranoid conspiracy theories about Russians, commies, scientists, liberals, etc. Are you guys all on meth or something? Or are you just a big pack of fraidy-cats? Awwwww……..
148. ho-hum | August 11th, 2008 at 11:45 pm
Kahn,
What should we do? Uh, well probably not what genius Mark Noonan has outlined above (American troops in Georgia, nuclear subs in the region and ready to go, intimidatory sanctions and embargoes). I guess I take it from your refusal to comment on Mark’s suggestions that you also feel those ideas are…. completely idiotic and reckless towards the lives of our troops? Is that the sort of response we could look forward to if John McCain is elected? America on the brink of nuclear war with Russia over a stoopid skirmish in the lower Caucus region? Wow.
Personally I think that diplomatic pressure should be brought to bear on both parties to reach an agreement, but honestly I don’t give a rat’s ass. Russia and Georgia are intertwined in South Ossetia where about 70% of the ethnic popolation is ethnic Russian. It’s their problem.
Why do you seem to believe that America poke its nose into every global dispute Kahn? Do you really think that’s a wise course? I don’t. And it certainly wasn’t the way the Founding Fathers anticipated we would behave towards the rest of the world. Personally I’m more comfortable taking their approach than the “decider’s”.
149. Kahn | August 12th, 2008 at 12:52 am
ho hum, so who can’t read? You apparently didn’t read MY posts. So GFY. Really - OBVIOUSLY you haven’t read my posts. And I was right to recognize you as a rabid maniac. You have some nerve.
Your position then, if I can cut through the hate spit and rant is… diplomatic efforts aimed at both?
Just make nice. OK, thanks.
Now, that does assume that the STATED reasons for the war are the REAL reason fore the war. But thats OK. Maybe they are. I don’t think so. But maybe they are.
150. ho-hum | August 12th, 2008 at 1:25 am
So again, Kahn. What do you want to do? Wtf does this have to do with the USA? Explain that to me, you clown. You and Noonan just seem to have gotten all EXCITED that THERE’S A WAR GOIN ON SOMEWHERE!!! And RUSSIA’S A PART OF IT - WE NEVER DID GET TO WIPE THEIR CLOCK PROPERLY. OOOOH, GOODY!! Can we join in?
Noonan and Kahn, two keyboard warriors. As I said regarding how I’d like to see this worked out - robust diplomacy, see how things play out over the next few days, you can bet there’s all sorts of things going on behind the scene.
Failing that we can always have General Noonan lead the US Airborne drop to rescue those virgin white Goergians while Secretary of State Kahn watches robustly from the command center, his finger poised to STRIKE via the keyboard at any moment.
Jackass.
151. ho-hum | August 12th, 2008 at 1:31 am
Kahn: “Good thing Russia wasn’t just to the south of the Confederacy. Or it would be a Russian vassal state and the Union would be in ruins.”
So are you saying that the populace of the antebellum South were 70% ethnic Russian Kahn and that many of them at the time of the Civil War were Russian citizens? Or can we take it that you just haven’t thought your stupid point through?
152. Kahn | August 12th, 2008 at 1:50 am
ho hum, still have not read MY posts? Talk about a jackass. I argue for not getting involved also - you asshole. Here you are screaming and ranting and refusing to read.
But I also don’t think the Russians are helping anybody. They are sending a message about trying to join NATO and they are in control of important pipelines. That is clear. Just who they are helping in Georgia is NOT.
Really, way up at the top. I did like four posts on this. But keep on spitting ignorant hate you jerk. At least I finally got you to state your position. Jeezzzz. It was like pulling teeth.
153. Kahn | August 12th, 2008 at 1:52 am
“ZUGDIDI, Georgia (AP) - Russian tanks roared deep into Georgia on Monday, launching a new western front in the conflict, and Russian planes staged air raids that sent people screaming and fleeing for cover in some towns.”
I thought they were helping civilians ho hum. Helping them by bombing them? If you say so.
154. Kahn | August 12th, 2008 at 1:56 am
Oh, and my earlier point was that the Confederacy was just as legitimate as the break-away areas of Georgia. But they didn’t have an imperialist power using them as