Rioting for Religion
August 15th, 2008 at 12:22pm Mark Noonan
When your back is against the wall and your fundamental beliefs are challenged, just what do you do? McCain and the other residents of the Hanoi Hilton showed rare courage:
“There were many times I didn’t pray for another day and I didn’t pray for another hour — I prayed for another minute to keep going,” said McCain, who was brought up Episcopalian but now worships at North Phoenix Baptist Church, a Southern Baptist church. “There’s no doubt that my faith was strengthened and reinforced and tested, because sometimes you have a tendency to say, ‘Why am I here?’ “…
…The prisoners decided that every Sunday, after they had eaten their rice, the highest-ranking officer would cough loudly and say the letter ‘c’ for church. The prisoners would then say the Pledge of Allegiance, the Lord’s Prayer and the 23rd Psalm. The psalm was said in plural: “Yea, though we walk through the valley of the shadow of death we will fear no evil.”
Prisoners used diarrhea pills mixed with cigarette ash—or charcoal or dirt—to write lines of Scripture and surreptitiously share them.
The church riot erupted after U.S. Special Forces raided a site about 40 miles from Hanoi trying to rescue prisoners who, it turned out, were no longer there. The Vietnamese, fearing more such raids, rounded up American POWs and moved them from other outlying camps into Hanoi. That meant an end to isolation, as dozens of prisoners were packed together.
“We agreed that we were going to have a church service and told the Vietnamese, and they said no,” recalled fellow prisoner Bud Day. But on Feb. 12, 1970, the prisoners went ahead anyway, holding a service and singing songs.
“The Vietnamese broke in and seized the people who were standing against the wall doing the service,” Day said. “They marched them out of the room at gunpoint. So I stood up and started singing ‘The Star-Spangled Banner,’ ‘God Bless America,’ ‘My Country ‘Tis of Thee’ and every song we could think of.”
The Vietnamese stormed back in, putting a definitive end to the service.
“We wanted to actually just have a chance to do what we felt was a fundamental human right … and we got spiritual comfort from being able to worship together,” McCain said. “We thought, look, if we’re going to be together, then we’re going to stand up. … They’d done so many bad things that we weren’t nearly as afraid of them as maybe we would have been if a lot of us hadn’t gone through what we’d gone through.”
There are some people who think that the act of saying something - like, for instance, giving an obscure speech against liberating Iraq - is an act of courage…but a real act of courage is when you do or say something which can put you in immediate risk of life and limb. John McCain has done this before, and so we can rely upon it that when its time to speak the truth and act upon it - regardless of how harsh - McCain will know that the worst thing that can happen to him, won’t happen. It already did. Character really does count in a President - all the intellect in the world is worthless if it isn’t joined with the simple courage to take a stand.
Entry Filed under: Campaign 2008, Patriotism, Religion, Republicans
29 Comments
1. Upstart | August 15th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
Mark, it is nice how you blend it all together for McCain but spit in the face of John Kerry, for no other reason than he is a Democrat. McCain too said some very nasty things about his country during that period in our history. Yet I would never be so gutless as the many swift-boat loyalist on this blog to question McCain’s patriotism.
2. Dennis | August 15th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Personal character is not a rigid, unchageable quality, Mark. Nobody can take away from John McCain his history of personal courage and hardship endured. But decades of freedom, immense personal wealth and privilege have changed his priorities fundamentally from when his whole existence consisted of surviving the next minute.
John McCain hasn’t faced danger, poverty or the loss of everything in a very long time. He came home from the war, ditched his old wife, got himself a multi-millionaire new one and now he doesn’t have to worry about being fired. He’ll always be rich.
John McCain has no idea what fear or courage mean to a blue-collar worker with children and health problems whose job has just been outsourced overseas. Or to an aging couple who just lost their mortgage and life savings due to mismanagement and fraud on someone else’s part.
Worse yet, candidate McCain has no idea how to address the needs of such people, who now number in the millions.
3. CanadianObserver | August 15th, 2008 at 2:30 pm
2. Dennis | August 15th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
———————————-
The McCain supporters do not care what happens to the disadvantaged, Dennis, as these lyrics from their bastardized rendition of John Lennon’s classic clearly states:-
“Imagine all the people
Keeping their own wealth…”
4. jayhay | August 15th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
McCain is a war hero. Let me say that another way, he went through hell with incredible courage that I wouldn’t wish on anyone. OK, that’s probably not enough for you guys to get that we get the war hero aspect - John McCain endured an unimaginable horror, survived, and came home to make a life anyone would be proud of (well except for the dumping the injured wife part). But he is a genuine, American war hero and really a good, honorable Senator.
But now McCain is saying stuff like this about Georgia: “My friends, we have reached a crisis, the first probably serious crisis internationally since the end of the Cold War.” Now, I don’t think I need to spell it out but, has the guy been NAPPING the last 20 years?! I mean, intelligence without courage is not a perfect combination, but courage without intelligence is not so hot either. The way he gets a tingle up his leg over a new war just freaks a very large part of this country out.
By the way, here’s Pat Buchannan’s take on the Georgia deal. If you’re a conservative, you’ll like what he has to say - if you’re a Republican, not so much…
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=28053
5. Rich | August 15th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
Well Jayhay- Russia is talking about nuclear strikes on Poland and hinting that Ukraine might be next to be invaded (another democratically elected government). Using their gas to make Europe cower is also being added to the mix. Ya Jayhay I’d say the return of the Soviet Union is a pretty big international crisis. You might want to get a history book and brush up on the past twenty years.
6. Henry J. | August 15th, 2008 at 8:22 pm
Every time I begin to hear McCain talk about his time in a POW camp, my eyes become glazed over and I become rapidly disinterested.
7. sue | August 15th, 2008 at 8:57 pm
“Every time I begin to hear McCain talk about his time in a POW camp, my eyes become glazed over and I become rapidly disinterested.”
It’s a good thing he doesn’t talk about it very much then isn’t it? Not like Kerry who talked about his 3 month service stint almost every time he gave a speach when he was campaigning.
8. Henry J. | August 15th, 2008 at 8:59 pm
I wasn’t a fan of Kerry, either - but you’re going to sit there, with a straight - I assume - face, and tell me he doesn’t mention it every other chance he gets?
Stop it now.
9. Some Assembly Required | August 15th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
Rich, how many nukes were fired at other countries by Russia in the past 20 years? How about gas attacks in Europe? I seem to remember we diplomatically handled the cold war without a shot being fired. You mean to say that we cannot do that again? And what about AQ? Are we all of a sudden safe from them because Russia is bringing the Iron Curtain back like Vanilla Ice on the Surreal life?
Fear the big bad wolf! When the wolf leaves, fear the pigs! We all know they can be just as bad as the wolves. They’re just more subtle about it… Sheesh. You must have some pretty bad ulcers.
Ok, just humor me, lets flip this the other way. The US invades Iraq pre-emptively (comparable to the Georgia crisis). The US then takes hard lines against Iran, North Korea and Venezuela and suggests the use of military force on several occasions. Can someone please tell me how this is any different?
Oh, and the talking point of spreading democracy at the end of a barrel doesn’t hold any water. Forcing freedom is the equivalent of tyranny if the people do not want it. Then again can you blame them? The US political system is in shambles. Everyday theres some new scandal or some politician going to jail. The world views the US as a ‘free nation’ run by criminals. These criminals pretend that they’re not and the public votes like they aren’t. All the while everyone knows the difference but act incredibly shocked when someone points to it. Sounds like a system every nation should be forced into….
10. neocon | August 15th, 2008 at 11:10 pm
“(comparable to the Georgia crisis)” - SAR
Wow. Iraq and Georgia are the same? Your levels of ignorance and indoctrination are staggering.
No one can tell you how they are different SAR, unfortunately you are irretrievably stupid.
You have no credibiltiy SAR until you act on your hatred of this country and move. What a pathetic whimp you must be to continue to waste your life in this hell hole of a country when you can change your life tomorrow by moving. What’s it going to be, continue to be a stupid victim or take control of your life and move? Your call.
have a nice night
neocon
11. Some Assembly Required | August 15th, 2008 at 11:22 pm
Neocon, seeing as how your the old man, I’m sure your aware of the old saying… “Before you critize or abuse, walk a mile in someone elses shoes”. It’s not hatred, it’s reality. It’s acceptance of the US’s flaws and acknowledgment of them. In an attempt to prevent the repetition of them.
Iraq and Georgia can be compared where both could be argued to be pre-emptive invasions on false or inaccurate intelligence. By the way, I said ‘Comparable’, I did not say ‘the Same’ or do you need me to explain the difference between the two?
I find it amusing that people such as yourself have the audacity to look at the Russians saying shame on you. Then, with the same breath, you’ll turn around and list reasons why we had to invade Iraq and why we must stay there. Your double standard is pathetic.
12. gotbrains? | August 15th, 2008 at 11:39 pm
Deleted - off topic.
13. Jeremiah | August 15th, 2008 at 11:47 pm
Some Assembly Required,
Those are two very different scenarios, the reason for Iraq, was simply for an injusice occuring…A man by the name of Saddam Hussein. And the world was sitting by just watching this happen. What if Obama would do the same as Saddam Hussein done, and have millions trained to kill innocent American civilians, wouldn’t you feel some thanks and relief if your neighbor country Canada came to your rescue?
2nd, Georgia wants to be a free Nation, as the President of that country said today on Neil Cavuto’s show, “We are closely allied with U.S.A, and the European Union…our people want democratic government, free to choose, we will not surrender, our people will be free” So for Russia to invade them because of them wanting to be a free Nation isn’t right … Georgia jumps on Ossetia, and then Russia jumps on Russia….it ain’t right, Russia had no business….but Vladimir Putin is dictator, and is determined to overthrow the world like Ahmadinejad … They both need hung.
So, you see, you can’t conflate Iraq with all these other happenings, because they’re not the same.
14. Dennis | August 16th, 2008 at 12:31 am
Jeremiah: “the reason for Iraq, was simply for an injusice occuring…A man by the name of Saddam Hussein…”
Okay, then where were was the US when injustice was happening in Sierra Leone? Little boys being conscripted into military service, people being disemboweled and human intestines used as roadblocks? We could have taken care of that injustice in short order, no?
Oh, but of course, there was no oil there - just anonymous dark-skinned people fighting over Lord knows what. In other words, we aren’t interested in correcting injustice unless there is some advantage in it for powerful interests who have America’s leaders in their pocket.
“What if Obama would do the same as Saddam Hussein done, and have millions trained to kill innocent American civilians”
Huh? You’re leaving rationality behind here, son. If you are inferring that Obama is spoiling to have Americans killing each other in a civil war you are either a.) pathologically paranoid, or b.) desperately need a little more understanding about what it means to be a Christian. Starting with the ninth commandment - the one about not bearing false witness against your neighbor.
“Georgia wants to be a free Nation”
Yes, well so does Myanmar, and what are we doing about that? Do you recommend we invade and hang the thugs who rule that nation as well?
15. Jeremiah | August 16th, 2008 at 12:35 am
My mistake … I meant Russia jumps on Georgia, after Georgia jumps on Ossetia.
Russia should stay out of free countries business.
John McCain is the man for this job, he knows what’s at stake, so he’ll straighten those crooked dictators out!
When we pull in with them big Apache’s gatlin guns on both sides packed to the gills with fire-power, them Russians will think twice before they try to launch a trick like that again.
16. Jeremiah | August 16th, 2008 at 12:49 am
Do you recommend we invade and hang the thugs who rule that nation as well?
Dennis,
NO dictator should live … Not ONE!
These countries have armies trained to control the masses, like Hitler did during his reign of the German Empire, and there’s nothing that the free-will and minded people can do to un-oppress themselves so to speak … it’s like if you were tied down by chain and ball, how far you gonna run?
That’s our duty as free people, to help the oppressed, and we’ll get to Myanmar some day, but we have far greater concerns right now, like Nuclear concerns….Ahmadinejad is on the way to making a super bomb, and Putin stands the chance of Nuking Poland … ever which way you turn their are dictators who want to kill have the world’s population for their own selfish ends…..and we are the only nation in the world with the power to stop both of them, we are the nation tha is a shining beacon of freedom, but that does not mean we shoul be letting people to come here and do as they please, that is what weakens our image, especially when we murder the most defenseless among us…let the pro-choice people pay into their own funds, and not sped our tax dollars.
We have threats from within and abroad, the truth is there, but are the people willing to put their minds to standing for truth…..?
The truth is … evil should never be left standing. Or else we stand the chance of wedding ourselves to tha dreadful path of death’s dark hole.
We are too beautiful a nation to do that. We are smart, or are we..? I don’t know, the liberal education system is severely weakening that aspect of traditional morality….anti-security, anti-life, anti-marriage, anti-work, anti-intellect, on and on. Homeschool your kids, they will learn and grow far better than with some looney toon liberal professor, and will have a greater defense, young minds who believe in this country and what we stand for.
GB
17. Dennis | August 16th, 2008 at 1:03 am
Jeremiah: “The truth is … evil should never be left standing. Or else we stand the chance of wedding ourselves to tha dreadful path of death’s dark hole.”
But on July 30 Noonan posted a quote by Thomas Aquinas that “for this world to be as good as it is, the existence of evil is necessary.”
Which is it - is evil necessary or not?
Who’s right - Aquinas and Noonan, or Jeremiah?
(For the record I disagreed with Aquinas, but you’ll have to go to the Atheim/Agnosticism vs Belief thread to see why…)
18. Dennis | August 16th, 2008 at 1:07 am
Correction - after considering the sentence construction above I believe Noonan may have quoted someone who paraphrased Aquinas.
A technicality perhaps - just trying to be precise here.
19. Jeremiah | August 16th, 2008 at 1:14 am
Dennis,
When you let evil prevail, then you do the Father a disservice … You don’t cold-shoulder people who are reaching out to you in suffering asking for help in their tired oppression … If I come to an elderly woman down the street, who has fell and broke her ankle on the curb of the road, and I look over and see her while going down the street, would it be right for me just to go right on by reading my paper, and sipping coffee, like no-one was there? Or if a lady down the alley is screaming HELP, HELP!!! SOMEBODY HELP! and there was a mad dog attacking a woman who is bleeding, do I just ignore her cries or contact some help?
The thing here, it doesn’t matter if someone else down here sees what my actions are, but who watches me from Above…and Jesus said, “What you do to the least of these, you do unto ME.”
20. Dennis | August 16th, 2008 at 1:53 am
Jeremiah: “You don’t cold-shoulder people who are reaching out to you in suffering asking for help…”
So we were wrong in letting Israel bomb Lebanon to smithereens in 2006?
So by inference Condoleezza Rice in refusing to call Israel off and callously saying “what we are seeing is the birthpangs of a new Middle East” was ignoring cries for help and being a bad Samaritan?
Remember that Israel was punishing the whole of Lebanon for the matter of two - yes, two - abducted soldiers, and thousands of innocent civilians bore the brunt of the damage. “Israel’s prime minister said Monday that Israel will continue fighting in Lebanon until the release of two Israeli soldiers abducted last week.” http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/17/mideast/index.html
You say “What you do to the least of these, you do unto ME.”
The US could have helped thousands of powerless Lebanese civilians by censuring Israel, so why did we simply let evil prevail?
21. Jeremiah | August 16th, 2008 at 2:11 am
Dennis,
No … that’s called ‘defense’ … Isreal has had to defend themselves for years against Palestines attacks. Hamas is another terrorist organization/hotbed that needs defeated…an BTW, it’s highly likely that BO has ties with Hamas in the area.
But to get back to the point, it’s the same situation, you have big nation bullying little nation in both instances…Russia/Georgia and Palestine/Israel … Palestine has a much larger territory than Israel yet they want to oppress them … same with Georgia, Russia wants to bully Georgia over control and power, territory etc, etc.
To illustrate this point, I can grab ahold of bee even though it is much smaller than I am, it will still try to defend itself. So in this case, reinforcements must be added, and more bees come to the rescue of their sibling bee/bees and you have a whole nest of bees coming to defend their hive/nest and if other bees from other hives smell the alarm pheremone then they come to the aid as well, in essence, helping their free neighbor bees out, sending the intruder on the run, and justice was well served in a few well-deserved stingers.
So, tell Russia to stop picking on Georgia and Palestine to stop picking on Israel and everything will be fine, ya think? Nah, it takes some action in a few stings, and peace will thus be restored.
Fair enough?
Bees have always been fascinating to me, and if you have a hive of bad behaved bees, that means you need to change the queen, who will raise good natured bees.
22. Dennis | August 16th, 2008 at 2:59 am
“Palestine has a much larger territory than Israel yet they want to oppress them”
Now you are in lala land… The US gives billions of dollars a year in weapons grants to Israel, who has sophisticated jet fighters, helicopter gunships, Hellfire missiles and a nuclear arsenal.
Meanwhile the Palestinians have zip, zilch, nada - except for a few lousy Katusha rockets and suicide bombs
So actually the Palestinians are the bee stinging the big powerful state, no?
23. majoriot | August 16th, 2008 at 8:16 am
And courage is nothing without intellect.
Given the choice, I’ll take the latter.
24. majoriot | August 16th, 2008 at 8:19 am
Actually, the courage to be intellectual, that is, to learn and to think, is what I prefer.
25. north phoenix baptist chu&hellip | August 16th, 2008 at 11:16 pm
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