Moslem Tolerance
by Mark Noonan on January 6th, 2009 at 06:40am
It does exist, and it is growing:
Bahrain will donate a plot of land to build a new Catholic church in the country. The decision by King Hamad bin Isa Al-Khalifa comes in response to a request Pope Benedict XVI made to the Gulf State when its new ambassador presented its credentials last 18 December.
“Everyone is aware today that because of the rising number of Catholics, it would be desirable for them to have more places of worship,” the Pope said during the audience with Naser Muhamed Youssef Al-Belooshi, first representative of the Arab kingdom to the Vatican.
About 80 per cent of the 800,000 people living in the country are Muslim (60 per cent Sunni and 20 per cent Shia). Catholics represent about 10 per cent, mostly foreign workers from Asian nations.
Bahrain became the first country in the Persian Gulf to build a Catholic church, the Sacred Heart Church, which will celebrate its 70th anniversary this year, since it was inaugurated with a Christmas Midnight Mass in 1939.
Relations between the Holy See and the Gulf kingdom saw significant progress in 2008. Not only did the Vatican receive the first ambassador from Bahrain, but King Hamad met Pope Benedict XVI as well. After the meeting on 9 July the sovereign issued an official communiqué inviting the Holy Father to visit the country.
Over the past year, we’ve had as our associate pastor a foreign priest who has spent time in the Gulf Region and it was he who first brought to my attention the tacit approval given to Christian worship in some of the Gulf States - the Gulf States have imported a great deal of labor and, as it turns out, a lot of it hails from Catholic areas of Asia. Meanwhile, Evangelicals have also been busy and have, indeed, gained converts in the Islamic world. Boiled down, the concept of the Arabian penninsula being entirely Moslem is rapidly collapsing in the face of the demographic facts of Christian immigration. And for these Moslem nations, its either become tolerant or lose their labor force. Most are turning towards toleration - and there is even some discussion about opening a Catholic Church in Saudi Arabia, something which would have been entirely unthinkable even just a few years ago.
A good deal of this progress is resultant upon the quiet diplomacy of the Holy See - patience and tact do go a long ways. But, additionally, there are also the winds of change blowing…including those winds brought forth by the US actions in Iraq and Afghanistan. The times, they are a-changing, and wise Moslems know they have to bend a bit with the wind, or break. The Islamo-fascists, of course, refuse to bend - but they are more and more being marginalized as Islam begins to develope hope for a better tomorrow, and becomes ever more familiar with the inhuman and, indeed, un-Islamic savagery of the Islamo-fascists.
There should be no turning back from this, and only the most cowardly surrender on the part of the United States can undo the good work well begun.
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January 6th, 2009 at 6:56 am
Dear js and frmmarine,
I told you so!
January 6th, 2009 at 7:57 am
did anyone tell you just how stupid you really are godless arse?
1 Church? 53 Muslim nations comprise 3/4 of the worlds 1.26 Billion muslim population and 100 Million non muslims live in those 53 nations…
and you think 1 church shows “tolerance”? lets draw the lines between the dots…and find out why 1% (10,000 people out of 1 million) of the population in bahrain is non-muslim…when in 2001 10% (official census data) were non-muslim….a decrease of 90,000 in 7 years…exodus of non-muslims…hmmm….tolerance? ya…right….
Since 1950, a registered Christian church with over 4,000 members has sought a parcel of land from the Ministry of Islamic Affairs on which to build its own church and hold religious services. The Ministry has not responded to its formal applications. The National Evangelical Church allows this church to use its facilities for early morning services. However, the facility can only accommodate at any one time half of the church’s congregation.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51597.htm
1950-2008….over 58 years to approve a new church…and only…after the Pope intervenes….
funny isnt it…58 years…what else happened in that 58 years? one act does not create any kind of euphoria…
the bahrain constitution states that islam is the official religion and that shari’a is a principal source for legislation…which means that every non-muslim in bahrain must pay jitzah tax….every one of them are dhimmi….
no wonder so many of them leave…if they dont pay the poll tax…any of the rich elite muslims can come to thier homes…enslave thier family…and kill them….and sieze the property as his own…(wow…thats “tolerance”…)
wake up…
January 6th, 2009 at 10:01 am
js02
un-Islamic savagery of the Islamo-fascists.
Can you say OXYMORON!
islam is a savage sixth century cult, based around a cutthroat lunatic, pedophile.
A good tree produces good fruit, the fruit of islam is ………rape, murder, plunder, intolerance, war.
It needs to be cut at it’s root and burned in hell.
January 6th, 2009 at 11:10 am
Now… You say that in average, in the most muslim countries on earth, the non-muslim population is about 1%
Then you say that this is the ratio in Bahrain, and you compare it to actual numbers from Bahrain, from 2001, and you say the difference is due to an exodus.
Did I understand you so far?
Good.
Except that according to the 2008 CIA world factbook, there is no data that is more recent than the 2001 census. However, same factbook puts the migration rate in the positive, which would tend to disprove such an exodus.
So, in order for your numbers to be true you would have to :
a) know numbers the CIA world factbook is not aware of. Way to go.
b) for every christian that leaves the country, have more than one muslim that comes IN the country
c) have bahrain exactly at the medium rate of muslims to christians of the 53 most muslim countries on earth, which I guess it was not in 2001 ( if the most muslim countries on earth had 20% non-muslims in them 20 years ago and now have only 1%, you can bet that yould have made the news)
In conclusion, you are puling numbers out of … thin air, and using these numbers to draw a conclusion that goes against what circumstancial evidence we have that is available and recent.
In other words, js02, you are making shit up and getting worked up over the shit you made up yourself.
January 6th, 2009 at 11:16 am
4. frenchstudent | January 6th, 2009 at 11:10 am
53 Muslim nations comprise 3/4 of the worlds 1.26 Billion muslim population and 100 Million non muslims live in those 53 nations…
and you think 1 church shows “tolerance”? lets draw the lines between the dots…and find out why 1% (10,000 people out of 1 million) of the population in bahrain is non-muslim…when in 2001 10% (official census data) were non-muslim
Now… You say that in average, in the most muslim countries on earth, the non-muslim population is about 1%
Then you say that this is the ratio in Bahrain, and you compare it to actual numbers from Bahrain, from 2001, and you say the difference is due to an exodus.
Did I understand you so far?
<<<<<>>>>>>
no, you dont understand…not one thing you said up to here is right…so i just quit reading your trash….
January 6th, 2009 at 11:23 am
then explain, please : where do you get your number that in 2008, 1% of the population in Bahrain ins christian?
January 6th, 2009 at 11:23 am
Good job defending your made up numbers js.
Well done. Now take your ball and go home.
January 6th, 2009 at 11:52 am
actually joe-stooge, the link i gave contained a 2005 assessment that the non-muslim population was att 2%, and an official bahrain government statement that conformed a high visitor worker population of non muslims contained the 1% figure…go tell…7% drop from 2001 to 2005 in the total non muslim population, and another 1% from 2005 to 2008….leaving 1% of the people of bahran as non muslim….
then again, if you just google bahrain 2008 non muslim population, you would find and confirm what i said without any problem on the 1st link that comes up…
http://www.bahrainrights.org/en/node/2442
then again, nobody said you had to have any intelligence to register for the blog here…so they let you in, eh?
January 6th, 2009 at 12:06 pm
Damn js… chill out. You are an angry bitter man.
All we were doing is asking you to back up your numbers and you foam at the mouth and lash out names at people.
You really need to chill a bit. Your blood pressure must be thru the freaking roof.
Try having a civil conversation once in a while.
January 6th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
OK, after some googleing, I believe that I get where JS02 is coming from :
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2006/71419.htm
(JS02’s linkedsource)
This part would seem to imply that the 1% number is an accurate estimation of the percentage of christians amongst barhain citizens.
You will note that this is not where JS02 claims the number comes from. he says, and I quote :
The implication here is that the 1% figure comes from the ratio of christian in the 53 muslim nations, no other source is cited.
Now let’s give JS02 credit for his research, and give him demerits for the lack of clarity of this writing style. He did his research, he just did not think to quote the relevant passage of his source.
However, he did cite a paragraph or two of the very site he (and I ) linked to. These paragraphs are a few lines after the “98% of the population is muslim” quote. We may therefore assume that JS02, having done his research, has read the intervening paragraph.
This paragraph :
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2006/71419.htm
Now what is the most likely scenario :
a) The CIA world factbook takes only the citizen population into account in the 2001 census data (without mentionning it), and there has, indeed, been an outward exodus of christians, somehow offset by an inwards exodus of muslims (remember, net migration goes inwards), and an influx of non-citizens that happen to be overlooked by the CIA factbook and to include one half of non-muslims people (in a country that christians flee in large numbers); JS02 is a genius and deserves to be worshipped.
b) the CIA world factbook 2001 census data takes into account the non-citizen population, and the population makeup of bahrain is stable since 2001. JS02 knows this and deliberately tried to mislead readers
c) JS02 reads only odd-numbered paragraphs. He is stupid but sincere and has not read the paragraph about the 38% of non-citizens in Bahrain.
d) JS02 pulled the 1% number from another source: please provide said source
January 6th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
even from your new source, JS02 :
emphasis mine
Once again, we get a rough 25% of non muslims in the total population. Which sends us back to propositions A), B), or C)
January 6th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
oops : from the CIA world factbook site :
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/docs/notesanddefs.html#2122
emphasis mine
I guess option a) went out the window then…
January 6th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
JS and FmrMarine,
But we must give credit where credit is due and also try to understand the position of the leadership of the Gulf States, which is more educated and not as insular as, say, the average Abdul on the streets of Cairo or Damascus. They know they live in a larger world and if nations like Bahrain - which will eventually run out oil - want to have a place in the larger world, they will have to allow the larger world to come in.
Saudi Arabia is the really tough nut to crack - with the Wahabbist sect enforcing strict Islamism, being a Christian - even if you are foreign - is dangerous…but our associate pastor says that even in Mecca there are Christians.
Breaking down the tyrannical regimes - as we’ve done in Iraq and Afghanistan and Israel is currently doing in Gaza is a large part of the picture. We have to smash the Islamists and take away their aura of strength built up over years of terrorism without consequences for the terror masters. But we also have to do the diplomatic route, and in this - meaning the breaking down of official and social Moslem intolerance - it will mostly be the Christian leaders who will lead the way, step by step, towards tolerance.
January 6th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
…oh, and for you liberals out there, the reason Evangelicals and Catholics are being successful at opening up Islam and you aren’t: because we’re cocnservative, too…trust me on this, when the Arab world - the non-Islamo-fascist part of it - looks out upon the West, what dismays them is not Christians in their churches, but abortionists in their mills and porn on TV…
January 6th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
you are pretty shallow french-stooge…tell us how you get 25% of the population from this;
‘the citizen population is 99 percent Muslim; Jews, Christians, Hindus, and Baha’is constitute the remaining 1 percent”
and, still, your reading comprehension SUCKS…you still do not understand what you are reading…
thats why its a waste of time to engage your hollow head…
is that simple enough for you to understand stooge?
“The citizen population is 99 percent Muslim; Jews, Christians, Hindus, and Baha’is constitute the remaining 1 percent”
“why 1% (10,000 people out of 1 million) of the population in bahrain ”
so…whats the population of bahrain?
1,050,000 +/-….so you think im talking about 1% of the muslim world eh stooge? where did you get your math degree, idiot city or cracker jacks…
Muslim population 1.25 billion
10,000 of that would be what, .00001%
while 1% of the bahrain population is what….about 10,000….hmmmm….doesnt take a college graduate to figure this out…does it….
ah…so you missed the jist of reality and grasped nothing but what you wanted to see….
and you wonder why i call ya mental midgets…get used to it…
January 6th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Mark,
when we find the muslim nations removing dhimmitude to citizens that are not muslims…then we can find a partner with tolerance…half steps and gestures behind sharia based enforcement of dhimmi is nothing more than a sham…
when a man can walk into a court in one of these nations and have the right to be heard and present facts irregardless of his religion, then we can say they have taken a step toward tolerance and equality…until then…we are dealing with oppressive regimes and theocracies that are intent on upholding a bigoted world view and that require everyone in those nations that are not a muslim to “admit that they are superior” and to concede an inferior status (where it is illegal to look a muslim in the eye or raise your voice to them)…
one church is not tolerance…its 58 years of hard work by missionaries in a hostile environment…
January 6th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Js, I would give up on frenchstudent. The screen name should give you a hint, from a country that will not acknowledge Islamic violence and allows the same Islamic groups that cause the violence to police their areas, rather than forcing them to adhere to French law.
January 6th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Mark,
I have to say, I do not see this as real progress, sorry. I realize that these are very conservative people, but when they go into the West they demand we give way to their beliefs. I do not see why someone who has come into their country to do work their own citizens won’t should have to live as a second class citizen. Have you ever seen how many non-Western guest workers are housed? It is terrible.
January 6th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Actually JS02, as I have quoted to you, the population of Bahrain is 38% non-citizens. It is in the next frigging paragraph. I copy-pasted it for you so you do not have to even click on a link.
This is the standard, the “total population” of the 2001 census. Amongst the non-citizen population (38% of the total population of the census, 49% of the total population of Bahrein according to the Bahrain center for human rights) about half is not muslim. This is where the 10% of christians come from in the 2001 census. This is where the 25% non-muslims from the bahrain center for human rights estimate comes from. It is a stable or increasing number.
Now since no-one can be as dense as you pretend to be, I personnally believe option b) : you are deliberately and clumsily trying to lie to your readers.
But of course, human stupidity never ceases to amaze me, so maybe you are as stupid as not being able to read odd-numbered paragraphs. That would be consistent with the speed at which you revert to personal insults when your bullshit is challenged by 5 minutes of googling. Also to the cleverness of said insults.
You know, wether you have such a small mind as this, or such a small soul as to lie so much only to make people hate each other, I pity you. Really.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
Mark, I believe your premise in post 14 is correct.
If anyone studies the roots of the modern Islamic jihadist movement they inevitably come across the name of Sayyid Qutb, whose experiences while studying in the US during the late 40s and early 50s persuaded him that America’s secular society was corrupt.
The more one studies Qutb’s background and writings the more one suspects he was a troubled person with an antisocial personality complex. But all that aside, there is no doubt that Qutb’s impressions of America, cast against his deeply conservative religious personality, presaged much of Islam’s current disapproval of modern secularism. And religious conservatism, as its polar opposite, certainly serves as an effective entering wedge in dealing with traditional Islam.
Former Congressman Mark Siljander discovered this commonality and writes of his remarkable encounter with Islam in the book “A Deadly Misunderstanding,” reviewed here: http://www.amazon.com/Deadly-Misunderstanding-Congressmans-Bridge-Muslim-Christian/dp/0061438286/ref=pd_sxp_f_pt
I have lifelong missionaries to the Arab world in my family and they have known for decades what Siljander discovered, and what you said above. Traditional Islam holds all “people of the book” in respect - Christians as well as Jews. Once a devout Muslim is persuaded of your genuine reverence for God and the prophets, whom all three religions recognize in common, it is a powerful bonding factor.
It is tragic that the more radical elements within Islam seem to have taken on Qutb’s antisocial and fatalistic traits - but elements of that same spirit may be seen in radical evangelical dominionism here in the US as well. It would seem the challenge is to keep religions in general from becoming coercive and remember that their primary function is to facilitate a voluntary personal connection between God and humanity.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
“The citizen population is 99 percent Muslim; Jews, Christians, Hindus, and Baha’is constitute the remaining 1 percent. ”
YOU GOT TO BE JOKING French-stooge…the numbers i quoted are not foreigners…learn to read and stop exposing your ignorance at my explense…or is that the calibre that you think “french” people should emulate…being ignorant is not a thing of dignity so…go home french-stooge…stop proving how stupid you really are….
January 6th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Now on the subject of the post, I agree that moderate religion is better than fundamentalist, whatever the religion is. Moderates are, by definition, more able to go along with each other.
Of course, I believe no religion is even better. I like religious people, but their religion seems stupid to me (whatever religion we’re talking about, as long as it posits the existence of the supernatural).
Now if you remember yout theology 101, Allah actually IS the jewish god. The kuran does not remplace the bible, it is supposed to complete it, just as the new testament completes the old one. The main incompatibility between christian and muslim theologies is that muslims, just as jews, do not recognise Jesus as the son/incarnation of god. Even muslims, however, recognise that Jesus was a prophet (jews do not, they believe Jesus was just a man), they just believe that Mahomet is a greater, more “current” one.
In theory, there is nothing preventing both religions to go along nicely. It is the Jeremiahs of the world, the people that believe their truth is the only acceptable one to the point that others must be coerced to believe (as if that was possible) that are the problems. Moderates from both sides can, and should, drown the fundamentalists out from the public debate.
They are also more equipped to talk to each other than with atheists, because they share a common outlook on life, a common language and a common ground.
Now I believe that moderately religious people are the majority, even if the radical ones are a very vocal majority. This is why generalisations made (usually by radicaly religious people from another religion) about a whole faith scare me. I am glad that you, Mark, begin to see that.
P.S. if you felt offended by the part where I said I liked christians but found christianity stupid, imagine how a gay guy feels whan you say you love the sinner but hate the sin
January 6th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
we got a good view of moderate tolerance of non muslims after 9-11…and after the dutch cartoons…and in paris….with all the burned cars and riots…
a silent voice is as good as no voice at all…and when it really counts…no voice is all that we hear…
reality; silence as in no opposition to the radical movement is an accent of approval….if even 1 country out of the 54 islamic nations stood up and demanded that these false muslim stop representing thier religion and back it up with laws and change so that every voice is equal….i could actually say…hey…maybe they have a basis for trust and peace…but there isnt a nation out there that has made non-muslims equal…and given its own non muslim populations an equal voice…
so stop pulling our legs…words with actions show intent…yet words without action account form most of the gossip in the world that influences people to believe lies to start with…lies about non equality and slavery…words that drive people to give thier children belts loaded with explosives to blow up non muslims….lies that mislead 1.25 billion living human beings (most of whom never got the chance to make an educated choice about thier religion because it amounts to apostacy which is a death sentence…)…
fatalistic traits…a human spirit in an islamic nation under sharia that demands equal rights…
it is fatal..
January 6th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
actually, islam is not a true religion…its claims to be scripture do not meet the test to be scripture…so it doesnt matter what the koran says…it is not much more than the delusions of mohammad…who could not figureout what the Holy Trinity was, let alone who the false angel that he “spoke” too was…
beware the face of mohammad…while it may seem to be smiling and joyous…he holds a bloody knife behind his back…
January 6th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
Actually JS, it is exactly as much a religion as christianity or judaism, and more of one than buddhism. I would however be curious to know what tests scripture must pass to be scripture to your eyes. As for the holy trinity, it is not recognised by the jews either. Is judaism not a religion?
And since you mentionned the mohammed cartoons earlier…. When the fundamentalist islamists brought the attention of muslim countries to the cartoons, they published said cartoons and added other cartoons which hed not been published in the netherland. The added cartoons were the ones that sparked the reaction, for they depicted Mohammed as a pig. It is the equivalent as depicting Jesus as a turd.
In short, the reaction was so intense, even from moderate muslims, because the moderate ones were lied to by the fundamentalists.
Oh and by the way, the attitude you show in your posts 23 and 24 is exactly the attitude that is the problem, be it from your side or the islamist side.
January 6th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
This was not the path I set out to follow twenty-five years ago, as a conservative Republican congressman and Evangelical Christian just entering the world of Washington politics. At the time, I believed that Islam was a religion of violence, that the Qur’an preached the destruction of all non-Muslims, and that the Qur’an and Islam were of the devil, as godless as the great evil of communism whose defeat was then the defining purpose of American foreign policy. I believed that Islam and Christianity were contradictory at their core, that the Eastern Islamic and Western Judeo-Christian cultures were irretrievably opposed to one another, and that the only possible solution to this conflict was the conversion of “them” so they would come to think like “us.” My worldview could not have been clearer or simpler—or more myopic.
In the years that followed I was led to question the truth of these axioms. In time, I learned that every one of them was utterly, categorically false. I learned that when we stop buying into our cultures’ prejudices, assumptions, and prevailing habits of thought and begin to investigate the texts of our different holy books in their original languages, conflicts between crucial terms and entire passages that have traditionally been viewed as irreconcilable begin to evaporate.
I learned that the deadly misunderstanding dividing our world today need not do so tomorrow.
What follows in these pages is not some new form of ecumenism or syncretism where Christians, Muslims, or anyone else is expected to give up cherished and long-held beliefs or creeds. It is rather a chronicle of one person’s search for a rich common ground that exists between these faiths and cultures. It has been a constant source of both astonishment and inspiration to find that this common ground is not some far-fetched ideal but is textually sound and eminently practicable. In some extremely delicate and hostile political situations, I’ve seen it work miracles.
from “A Deadly Misunderstanding: A Congressman’s Quest to Bridge the Muslim-Christian Divide,” by Mark D. Siljander.
http://www.amazon.com/Deadly-Misunderstanding-Congressmans-Bridge-Muslim-Christian/dp/0061438286/ref=pd_sxp_f_pt
January 6th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
sorry - blockquote html didn’t work on that last post…
January 6th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
This guy?
“Former U.S. Congressman Mark Deli Siljander (R-MI) was indicted Wednesday for money laundering, conspiracy and obstruction of justice, in connection with charges that a Muslim charity, the Islamic American Relief Agency (IARA), was involved in efforts to finance the Afghan jihad terrorist Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. The IARA was named a specially designated global terrorist organization by the U.S. Treasury Department in 2004. ”
honestly, if you believe that Jesus didnt die for your sins, then you probably will believe what siljander said…and if you dont believe that Jesus was crucified…then you prabably will believe what siljander said..and if you think the arab name for Jesus is isa,…then you probably will believe what siljander said…and if you really dont care that the koran never mentions YHWH, but keeps alluding to “the god” of mohammads tribe in mecca…then you probably will believe what siljander said
but not me…i just believe that siljander was never really a true christian…because he could not forsake Jesus for mohammed…if he ever knew Jesus…
its not even close to a fair trade…not even close…
January 6th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
25. frenchstudent
“Actually JS, it is exactly as much a religion as christianity or judaism”
why do you try to tell me a lie and expect me to respect you?
a false religion is still not a religion…
Jesus said Love Thy Neighbor…mohammad killed him and enslaved his neghbors wife…then committed adultry when he raped her…
Jesus said “Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”…mohammad said that it is every muslims duty to fight for the cause of “the god”…and to continue to fight the infidels until they convert and become a muslim or submit and announce the superiority of the god of the muslim, and pay protection taxes to stay alive….
and honestly…muslims have been lying about the patriachs for over a thousand years…but the Jews dont run around killing and rioting because of them…and muslims have been lying about Jesus for over a thousand years….but the Christians dont run around killing and rioting because of them…and muslims have been killing the Hindu and destroying thier temples and statues for over a thousand years…but they dont run around killing and rioting about that either…
to sum it all up…i really dont think you know anything about what you think you do…you should stick with what little knowledge you do know ex student-stooge…and stay out of topics that you clearly dont belong in…
January 6th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
Jesus told us that in this world, we would be hated just like this world hated Jesus…..and mohammad told muslims in the koran…to possess this world…
the two have nothing in common…they directly oppose one another…true Christians know Jesus because Jesus is alive…while mohammad is dead…forever…
January 6th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
Js, Mark Siljander is a conservative, evangelical Christian and, nothwithstanding the indictment, a Republican in good standing. Since you apparently don’t know how to factcheck things, below is a portion of what Wikipedia says about Siljander’s case. Note that Siljander “still has support from the Heritage Foundation, currently managing his legal defense fund, former Secretary of State James Baker, former Attorney General Ed Meese and other conservative leaders and foundations, despite the current indictment.”
There is much more both there and elsewhere, but this will give you the gist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_D._Siljander
January 6th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
so you spread gossip from wikipedia and ignore the real answer i gave to your lies…
how could i expect anything different from a stooge…so typical….
but tell us…why did he lie to the FBI then…if he was sucha “good fella”?
no…dont answer…honestly, if you believe that Jesus didnt die for your sins, then you probably will believe what siljander said…and if you dont believe that Jesus was crucified…then you prabably will believe what siljander said..and if you think the arab name for Jesus is isa,…then you probably will believe what siljander said…and if you really dont care that the koran never mentions YHWH, but keeps alluding to “the god” of mohammads tribe in mecca…then you probably will believe what siljander said
but not me…i just believe that siljander was never really a true christian…because he could not forsake Jesus for mohammed…if he ever knew Jesus…
its not even close to a fair trade…not even close…
who would give up thier immortal soul to be buddies with islam?
its not worth it.
January 6th, 2009 at 5:41 pm
Js : and christianity encouraged slavery because “the blacks have no souls”, made the cusades, the inquisition and the religious wars happen… Islam is just as much a religion as your religion is. being good and moral is not a criteria for being a religion. In fact, the cult of moloch that demanded human sacrifice via the burning of live children was a religion. Even Satanism is a religion.
There is no religion in this world that has not been made into something ugly by its followers at one time in its history (not counting buddhism, which in my view is more of a philosophy than a religion - after all, the buddha said himself that he did not know nor care wether there was a god, gods or nothing).
Now, I believe we are not giving the same meaning to the word “religion”. As I understand it, any belief system that tries to explain the world through supernatural causes, or that deals with what happens to the souls after one dies (and, of course, that supposes a soul exists) is a religion. If your definition is different, please explain what you mean by “religion”.
But I’ll read it tomorrow morning, time to hit the sack.
January 6th, 2009 at 6:01 pm
33. frenchstudent
“:Js : and christianity encouraged slavery because ”
why do you lie to me stooge?
please, cite verse’s of the Bible when you tell me about Christianity…it separates the feeble accusations from world class debate…
January 6th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
the cult of moloch that demanded human sacrifice via the burning of live children was a religion.
French Student,
And you seen what God did to Judah, didn’t you?
January 6th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
There is no religion in this world that has not been made into something ugly by its followers at one time in its history
French Student,
Only man has made institutions ugly, mean, and hateful … as man is naturally wicked and evil. We’re born with evil hearts.
We have the power, however, to live above sin through Jesus Christ.
January 6th, 2009 at 7:55 pm
“we got a good view of moderate tolerance of non muslims after 9-11…and after the dutch cartoons…and in paris….with all the burned cars and riots…”
Grand Ayatollah Khamenei* of Iran, devout Muslim, supreme leader of the Islamic Republic, was one of the first people to denounce the attacks of 9/11. HE is a moderate. Like many in his country. So, why did they elect a madman as president? Simple: If you were surrounded by Russia not too far to the north, Afghanistan ( a shitty place by all accounts ) and Pakistan, a nuclear power, to your east, and then had U.S troops at both your borders - would you not want a man ready to strike? BTW, we seem to lump together all the terrorist organizations in the middle-east. This is not helpful. For example, even though Iran may not like us, they also do not like Al-Qeada. Why? Because, AQ is Sunni and Iran is Shia. And they HATE each other. More than Red Sox and Yankees. In negotiations (cut the rhetoric about not negotiating with terrorists) with Iran, we must remember: It is OUR actions that decide whether or not they are an allie or an enemy.
* Not to be confused with the late Ayatollah Ruholla Khomeini.
January 6th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
js, do you know any Muslims?
January 6th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
we seem to lump together all the terrorist organizations in the middle-east. This is not helpful.
No, what is not right … is using the attackers on 9/11 to lump and generalize by blaming it on “religion.”
There is only one faith … Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ!
What they done to Jesus sums up the hearts of all men. That is the only true generalization we can make — Sinful man.
January 6th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
JJ, what do you say to the many Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, and of course, Muslems out there? Is there not salvation for them?
January 6th, 2009 at 8:32 pm
JJ, what do you say to the many Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, and of course, Muslems out there? Is there not salvation for them?
Yes, there is.
Everyone is guilty of sin.
Here Paul is speaking about faith and the law
Romans 3:9-31
What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written: There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.” “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.”
God’s grace declares believers righteous through faith.
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished — he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. ON what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
January 6th, 2009 at 9:16 pm
kj,
Did African-Americans go straight from field hand to President? But wasn’t it still better to be an African-American in 1865 than in 1815? I refuse to let the perfect be the enemy of the good - sure, I’d like to have a Catholic church in Mecca just as there is a mosque in Rome - and, one better, a synagogue in Mecca, into the bargain.
I think that too many, left and right, have come to the conclusion that its better to have 100% of nothing than 10% of something.
January 6th, 2009 at 9:37 pm
In America you get food to eat. Don’t have to run through the jungle and scuff up your feet. You just sing about Jesus and drink wine all day. It’s great to be in America.
Sail away. Sail away. We will cross the mighty ocean into Charleston Bay…
January 6th, 2009 at 10:12 pm
Grand Ayatollah Khamenei* of Iran, devout Muslim, supreme leader of the Islamic Republic, was one of the first people to denounce the attacks of 9/11. HE is a moderate.
lol, foolish, foolish boy, you bring in another tyrant and call him devout…and a “moderate”?….how naive a mental midget can be…
The Iranian killing machine: A woman to be hung, another woman to be stoned to death, three men to be executed in public, another man to lose both eye
This is not a terror movie and none is fiction. This is all happening in the Islamic Republic of Iran. As long as people in the world are ignorant towards the severe human rights abuse in Iran and promote more “negotiations” with murderers, more people will be tortured and killed.
http://iran-human-rights.blogspot.com/2008/11/iranian-killing-machine.html
Amnesty International continues to document serious human violations including detention of human rights defenders and other prisoners of conscience, unfair trials, torture and mistreatment in detention, deaths in custody and the application of the death penalty. Iran has one of the highest number of recorded executions of any country in the world. Amnesty International is particularly concerned about the execution of children and individuals who were minors when their crimes were alleged to have taken place.
Amnesty International has reported extensively on a number of human rights abuses–including large-scale arrests, incommunicado detention and torture–have taken place in the context of recent unrest among the country’s Arab and Kurdish and Azeri ethnic minorities. Demonstrations held to protest violations have been met with indiscriminate use of violence; several of the victims have been children. Religious minority communities–including Bahais and Muslims practicing Sufism, have also been faced increased persecution in recent months. In recent months, the Iranian authorities have been carrying out a widespread crackdown on civil society, targeting academics, women’s rights activists, students, journalists and labor organizers. Hundreds of trade union activists–in particular activists from the Union of Workers of the Tehran and Suburbs Bus Company were arrested as part of measures to prevent planned strikes. Lawyers, web loggers and others who have spoken out against human rights violations have themselves been targeted for abuse. Read more below about how you can stop child executions and help human rights activists in Iran.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/all-countries/iran/page.do?id=1011172
i guess you spell tolerance “K-i-l-l” in iran, eh?
January 7th, 2009 at 9:51 am
Did I mention Ahmedinijad tried to change the rules to allow women to do more in the country? Some of the more conservative ayatollahs wouldn’t allow it.
January 7th, 2009 at 6:49 pm
dingdongdennis
In the years that followed I was led to question the truth of these axioms. In time, I learned that every one of them was utterly, categorically false. I learned that when we stop buying into our cultures’ prejudices, assumptions, and prevailing habits of thought and begin to investigate the texts of our different holy books in their original languages, conflicts between crucial terms and entire passages that have traditionally been viewed as irreconcilable begin to evaporate.
Then you bought into the BIG…LIE.
shook hands with the devil and sold your soul.’
It must suck to be you!
January 7th, 2009 at 6:57 pm
Mark
“Arabs and the Israelis have been fighting since time immemorial over that tiny plot of land called Israel. Their battle is not one of flesh and blood, but of spiritual things. The Bible states that the last great battle will pit Israel against the rest of the Middle East and its allies. How did it all begin and why have they remained mortal enemies for thousands of years?”
“If one believes that the Old and New Testaments were written under the inspiration of the Spirit of God, then there is no question that Israel is the Promised Land of the Jews. God’s words to Abraham in Genesis are some 2,500 years older than the creation of Islam (whose “prophet” Mohammed was a murdering, thieving pedophile who “married” a seven year old child - but that’s another story).
The bottom line is, God fulfilled His promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Ishmael. And He is about to use the consequential warfare between the two brothers in order to bring about His “end time” scenario….”
January 7th, 2009 at 7:14 pm
In Genesis 16:13-16 (years before Abraham’s second son Isaac was born) the Angel of the Lord told Abraham’s servant Hagar that her son Ishmael would be “…a wild donkey of a man, His hand will be against everyone, and everyone’s hand will be against him; and he will live to the east of all his brothers.”
“Never shall the twain be one!”
January 7th, 2009 at 7:22 pm
dddennis
sorry about post #46, in your post #26 you did not include quotation marks, or italics.
I believed you wrote the text, when i re-read it - it was obvious it was written by someone else,
my apologies for associating that with you.
January 9th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
Post 32: “i just believe that siljander was never really a true christian…because he could not forsake Jesus for mohammed…if he ever knew Jesus… its not even close to a fair trade…not even close…”
Js, where did you hear that Siljander forsook Christianity to be a Muslim?
I believe Siljander is on to something important because there are Christian missionaries in my family who spent decades in the Middle East. My uncle was a lifelong Arabic and Islamic scholar. Although a devout Christian, he understood there were specific points of connection between Islamic theology and Christianity, and he used these to build bridges toward acceptance of Christ as Saviour among Muslims. It was work that required extreme tact, patience and sensitivity to the cultural differences between the Arab world and the West.
Fmrmarine (post 49), apology accepted. As for posts 47 and 48, Genesis’ characterization of the descendants of Ishmael is right on the money. However your representation of modern Israel as inheritors of Abraham’s legacy is mistaken.
Christ in the Gospels indicated that the Jews’ legacy was voided by their rejection of him. See Matt. 23:37-39. Paul in Galatians 3:29 affirms that henceforth those who accept Christ are “Abraham’s seed, and heir according to the promise.”
Remember that a covenant is an agreement, which by definition has terms and conditions. The fact that there is a New Covenant (or Testament) indicates that the Old Covenant was superseded - and why? Because ancient Israel failed to meet its terms and conditions: faithfulness and obedience. The promise to Abraham remains intact, but his heirs are now all who accept Christ. The modern state of Israel hardly meets that criterion, nor are they natural descendants of Abraham (being largely of non-Semitic, eastern European heritage).
Once this mythology is debunked the whole Bible makes more sense, and Armageddon becomes a matter for biblical scholarship, subject to proper exegesis, rather than being a rallying point for political extremists or bigots from all over the political spectrum.
January 9th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
The promise to Abraham remains intact, but his heirs are now all who accept Christ.
I agree.
God said He would make Abraham the father of many nations … that his descendants would be as the sands of the sea … and that’s what He was talking about … was through Abraham’s faith. If we are born-again through faith in Christ’s blood shed at Calvary … We are one with Abraham, not through the man Abraham himself, but through Jesus!
The people of Israel were God’s chosen people at one time, but many have slipped away from the faith. The chosen Israel was pertaining to the people and not the land, because as Jesus has said, “My kingdom is not of this world.”
In all of this, however, I would want to preserve the birth place of our Lord … I wouldn’t want to see it destroyed by a bunch of Pagans.
January 9th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
Armageddon becomes a matter for biblical scholarship
And as for “Armageddon” …. we are in it. Armageddon is a spiritual battle, not withstanding the other signs that would come at the end of the ages, such as the many wars and such … but overall it is a spiritual battle.
A few facts should help you out….
“Literally, Armageddon is the name of an ancient battlefield at the foot of Mount Megiddo in Palestine. Here the Jews fought numerous battles. On this site Saul took his life; here Deborah and Barak sang a song of victory; and it marks the place where Sisera and his great armies were defeated. The Plain of Armageddon is only twenty miles wide and about forty-give miles long. INdeed, the whole country of Palestine is very small–approximately 9,000 square miles, about one-fourth the size of the state of Indiana. It is utterly preposterous to conceive of Christians fighting a literal battle in this small area when the battle of Armageddon is to be the greatest, largest, and final battle of the church. Remembering that the Old Testament gave literal pictures which serve as shadows of spiritual fulfillment in the New Testament church, let us discover an Old Testament story which symbolizes today’s Armageddon. In the year of 164 B.C., the Grecian Empire endeavored to force the entire known world to become Hellenistic. Judas Maccabee, the Hammer, was a leader of Jewish priests who defended the Jewish religion. At Armageddon this small number of Jewish priests fought Lysias, general of Antiochus Epiphanes and his mighty army. It wqas a battle of horror and much bloodshed. Gog and Magog, referred to in Ezekiel, chapter 39, were enemies of the Jews who joined the forces of destruction against Jerusalem. But God was with his people, the Jews, and even though they were small in number they won the victory. The Grecian enemy was defeated and the Jewish kingdom was restored to a glory almost comparable to Solomon’s splendor. This was known as the Asmonean dynasty. With the understanding of this literal battle as a type, it is not difficult to comprehend the spiritual anti-type. In the Revelation, chapters 15 and 16, John tells of seven vials of wrath being poured out upon the earth. Five of these plagues have already passed as judgments of God, and today we are encountering the sixth. In John’s vision he beholds the vial of wrath being poured out upon the river, Euphrates. Literally this river flowed through the center of ancient Babylon. When Babylon, the mighty empire, was destroyed, the enemy gained entrance inside the city by diverting the course of the river and marching in on the riverbed. The vial John speaks of as being poured out on the Euphrates is indicative of God’s wrath being poured out on spiritual Babylon preceding her final destruction. John says, “And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beasts, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon” (Rev. 16:13-16). It is evident that a spiritual battle is here indicated, since the foe is likened unto three unclean spirits–slippery, slimy and sly–like frogs. These evil spirits encounter the whole world; the arena encompasses the globe. It is significant that the church was born on a battlefield; her warfare has filled the pages of history in every generation, and she is seen at the end of time entrenched in her most vicious battle–Armageddon! Three great wars have been fought–and won by true Christianity. The first was a struggle with the dragon of paganism; the second was with the beast of papalism; the third was an encounter with the evils of the false prophets of Protestantism. The final conflict, the church is faced with all three as a trinity of evil. Satan has combined his forces in the final attempt to destroy the church.”
One of the main figures I believe is Scientology, that held by atheists, disbelief being our main enemy!
We are in the last gasp, I do believe!
January 9th, 2009 at 8:05 pm
Armageddon… you are the shame of the GOP, my friend.
January 9th, 2009 at 8:54 pm
Armageddon… you are the shame of the GOP, my friend.
mule,
You are winning the physical battle, that’s for a fact. But you will by no means win the spiritual battle.
Suffering and misery mark your every step.
January 9th, 2009 at 9:56 pm
How miserable must it be to be outside in a sandwhich board, screaming to passersby about how the end is nigh?
January 9th, 2009 at 10:17 pm
How miserable must it be to be outside in a sandwhich board, screaming to passersby about how the end is nigh?
Souls are perishing, friend, to be lost for eternity.
How long is eternity?
Imagine all the rock, stone and granite in the world being heaped into one colossal mountain at once. It is said that God could send a tiny sparrow from heaven once every 100 years to sharpen its beak upon these rocks. When all the mountain was worn away from visits of the tiny bird, eternity will have only begun!
You will spend it in one of two places … in heaven with Jesus, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John … Paul, St. Peter, possible loved ones who knew Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and Oh yes, millions of little baby angels :) straight from their mothers womb into the arms of Jesus! Joy unspeakable!
Or, you will spend it in hell, where sin takes you…
January 9th, 2009 at 10:27 pm
There. Is. No. Hell. There can not be a hell, for Jesus loves too damn much for there to be a hell. After all, only true evil deserves a punishment as terrible and as intolerable as hell, and true evil lies only in the Devil. By the way, by the standards you set, only a few pepole would ever be in heaven. And don’t give me the crap about how good we used to be, because it never was that good. In fact, we’re probably a better people now than at any other time in our history.
January 9th, 2009 at 10:34 pm
mule,
Yes, there is a hell. And it’s because of God’s perfect love that there is such a place.
Why would God choose to make those who strive to do His will suffer for others who dwell in sinful nature?
If there was no hell, then there would have been no reason for Jesus Christ to buy our pardon!
January 9th, 2009 at 10:38 pm
50. dennis Post 32: “i just believe that siljander was never really a true christian…because he could not forsake Jesus for mohammed…if he ever knew Jesus… its not even close to a fair trade…not even close…”
Js, where did you hear that Siljander forsook Christianity to be a Muslim?
<<<>>>>>
silly boy, your comprehension is dwarfed because of your bias against the truth…you dont have any idea what i said or what i mean…its a problem with being a legend in your own mind…a high mindedness that distinctly screams of selfish egotistical grandiose…
any man who would consent that the koran is scripture and that allah and YHWH are one and the same could never have known YHWH to start with…there is no consolation and no second place…the truth has always be that way…
January 9th, 2009 at 11:07 pm
its pretty dangerous to tell folks how God thinks and that His Covenant is bogus Dennis-stooge…the Bible teaches us that though we are grafted into the tree…we can also be removed from it…it does warn you about that…and the covenant God made with David…never ends…God guarantees that the seed of David will exist forever…”My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.” (Psalms 89:34-37)…so no matter how sinful the seed of David becomes…the covenant will never break…God, who knows what will happen to us since before time began…does not need to mislead us…”for ever” is eternity…