The Fall of Rome and America’s Peril (and Hope)
Tags: Morality.
From Victor Davis Hanson:
…We inherited a wonderful infrastructure from our parents. A superb system of politics and economics was likewise given to us at birth. Many of us try to copy our grandparents and parents whose values and work ethic we increasingly eulogize. But against all that is that Roman notion of luxus, untold wealth and leisure that we see juxtaposed with shrill cries and accusations that we are too poor, exploited, and in need of someone else’s income. The wealthier we become, the louder and angrier we become that we are not even more wealthy.
In short, what ruined Rome in the West? Lots of things. But clearly the pernicious effects of affluence and laxity warped Roman sensibility and created a culture of entitlement that was not justified by revenues or the creation of actual commensurate wealth — and the resulting debits, inflation, debased currency, and gradual state impoverishment gave the far more vulnerable Western Empire far less margin of error when barbarians arrived, or rival generals marched on Rome. For a while the Romanization of the wider Mediterranean subsidized this ennui, but eventually the old western and southern provinces neither could protect what they had created nor could continue to be as productive as in the past nor believed that being Roman was any better than the alternative.
The historian Will Durant, after surveying the decay of Rome in the 1st century AD, noted that “by its own exhausted will, the great race (of Romans) was beginning to die”. That is important – decline is a choice, not a fate. We are touched with decay while the rest of the western world is shot through with it. Thus far, the people of what was once called Christendom are choosing to die. Meanwhile, even those states which might want to supplant us have also started to choose to die – but being further back on the road, there is that prospect of a brief supremacy.
It was not a perversity on his part that St. Francis said, “Grant me the treasure of sublime poverty”. While we look back at the 13th century as a time of grinding poverty, the fact is that St. Francis was of a wealthy family and living in a society growing highly prosperous – perhaps as well off as anyone had been since the height of Rome. St. Francis knew, though, that wealth can be a killer – a killer of courage, mercy and love. Sublime poverty is what keeps a person – and a society – healthy.
So, are we all to burn our cash and go live as peasants in the countryside? It is a choice of “farm or die”? That depends on how one wishes to look at it – the real choice is between doing things and doing nothing. If we continue to do more and more nothing, then we’ll get progressively weaker, and eventually die. Not in a cataclysm, but in a slow drift to national senility and an eventual breakup of the nation and our replacement by anyone who wishes to do things on the land we slept upon.
One of the hardest thing for us to wrap our minds around is that, all along, sublime poverty was provided for us. Remember that our federal government is directly indebted for nearly $13 trillion dollars. The “most wealthy” nation spent $13 trillion it didn’t have – and when you tack on personal and State government debt and combine it with the unfunded mandates, we’re many tens of trillions of dollars in the hole. The harsh fact is that we weren’t as rich as we thought we were.
To be sure, we were vastly wealthy – and in very real terms, we retain such wealth. Its in our soil and in our ability to invest in sweat equity. We haven’t wanted to sweat and we’ve listened to idiots about the environment and thus closed off vast amounts of native wealth. But we never were rich enough for all those millions of people to get “free” health care. Never were rich enough for kids to get government grants to go to college. Never were rich enough to provide welfare for tens of millions of people. Our politicians talked of “how can the richest nation in the world not afford X” and we nodded our heads like morons – never fully understanding that being the richest nation in the world isn’t the same as having unlimited wealth for whatever struck our fancy.
We must get back to work. We must, in the end, have the courage to tell a high school graduate that he’s going to have to go to work and entirely pay for college on his own – or not go to college. We’re going to have to tell the shiftless poor that it is time to shift for themselves. We’re going to have to be brave enough to say to a person, “its sad you can’t afford that quadruple bypass”. We don’t have an endless supply of money – we do have an endless supply of resources and ability to work; an endless supply of love and generosity (maybe that oldster’s friends can pool their resources to pay for the bypass?), but we don’t have an endless supply of money. Sublime poverty sits at our knee, waiting for us to wake up.
And if we do wake up and get back to work and understand that all our whims will not be granted, then we will cease to die. We will become what we were – the America of our grandfathers will return. The choice is ours – live, or die. I chose to live and I’m beginning to believe that a large majority of my fellow Americans wish to live, too and understand what it will require.
Cross Posted at Noonan for Nevada
Mark Noonan is co-author (with Matt Margolis) of Caucus of Corruption: The Truth About The New Democratic Majority. He also blogs at Nevada News and Views. Follow Mark on Twitter.
60 Responses to “The Fall of Rome and America’s Peril (and Hope)”
Caucus of Corruption
tens of millions of women & people of color in this country dont share hanson’s observation that: “We inherited a wonderful infrastructure from our parents. A superb system of politics and economics was likewise given to us at birth.”
_
the fight for justice continues…
OO,
And the fight against stupidity also, it seems, must continue. Worrying about that is just more “doing nothing”…you want to help black people who are victims of Jim Crow? Get a bloody time machine and get out of here. We have work to do and no time to waste on liberal idiocy.
so u think the millions of underpaid women & minorities today, now, is jim crow time machine?
ur correct, the fight against stupidity continues.
hey…they get at least minimum wage…none of them are…underpaid…as you claim…look at it this way…the minimum wage increase from last year…thats another socialist program…why do you stuff your head up your beehind like that 00…all you are getting out of there is…ya well…we all see it….and does it stink…must be what you call jim crow eh…
“We must, in the end, have the courage to tell a high school graduate that he’s going to have to go to work and entirely pay for college on his own – or not go to college.”
So, when the high tech jobs need to be filled they will be filled by someone from overseas. Good plan Mark.
Apparently the fight against stupidity starts by cutting funds for education.
cam, your myopic, entitlement mentality is breathtaking. You’re in for some serious disappointments in the near future. Too bad — you seem like a decent guy.
spook,
I went to a state university because it was the cheapest option and I was able to pay for it myself while I lived at home with my family part of the time. Further, I took many leaves so I could work full time and finish my degree. By the time I did get my degree I had been married for 8 years.
But it is not about me. It is about our ability to compete. With advanced education our country can be the source of innovation in new technologies. Without it, more innovation will come from elsewhere. That will reduce the standard of living for all of us.
In the past, providing an education through high school was good enough. Now such an approach is a looser for all of us. It is not an entitlement for a few but an investment for all.
the industrial revolution occured without a college education…you underestimate american ingenuity and ambition…and you libtards stiffle it with your BS libtard educational system…so you lie…it is about you…and those like you…perverting the american education system into an indoctrination machine for socialist commies to take over…freedom is the only way to success…socialist nations…communism…fails….every time the experiment runs…you dont get inovation from socialism…never did…never will…all you idiots are doing is bending over the next generation an robbing them blind to justify socialist stipidity…
js,
The development of the wheel happened without college education. Technology has advanced beyond a high school education.
“Technology has advanced beyond a high school education.”
Too bad the majority of those leaving government schools have not.
so much for that “investment”.
Cam,
Spook nailed it – you have an entitlement attitude. You’re part of the problem – if a kid is really determined to go to college, he’ll go. Students who care about getting an education will do without – they won’t have cars, they won’t have fancy clothes and all the latest gadgets…they’ll have a burning desire to learn. Right now, the schools are stuffed with people taking degrees in things we don’t need (do you know how many lawyers we produce every year as opposed to scientists?).
And, darn it, not everyone gets to go to college. Its just not in the cards. Stop trying to make everyone happy: there isn’t enough money in the world to do that.
Mark,
You call it entitlement and I call it investment.
By the way I never felt entitled to anything as I have made clear in my previous comment. Further, if my kids don’t earn scholarships they will likely attend the same state university that I did. And I have no problem with that. My concern for them is that they will not be able to afford even that.
Meanwhile I hope they can get scholarships playing musical instruments or playing a sport. I figure if you can kick a 50 yd field goal under pressure you get a free pass for 4 years.
“investment”?
we can see that cam bought into the propaganda like a good little useful idiot.
Normally, cam, an investment is a vehicle in which you pay money with the expectation of some return. There is little or no return (financial or productive or otherwise) in this type of spending.
…unless you are willing to count those votes that were bought with the so-called “investment”.
Cancan
cam1 says:
February 12, 2010 at 1:14 pm
“We must, in the end, have the courage to tell a high school graduate that he’s going to have to go to work and entirely pay for college on his own – or not go to college.”
WAH WAH WAH
Hmmm seems to have worked for me,
PLUS
I did a stint in the USMC and a tour in Viet Nam……Oh yes and a 5 year apprenticeship. as well as a bus mgt degree your generation are such puzzys get a life moron.
Oh yes I raised three sons and horror of horrors, they also had to WORK and PAY their way through college.
neocon,
You attributed a quote by Mark to me. If you can’t get it right, don’t bother.
00
ohioorrin says:
February 12, 2010 at 1:26 pm
so u think the millions of underpaid women & minorities today,
GET OVER IT….YESTERDAYS NEWS
OLD and BOOOOOOOOOOOOORING!!!!!
sitting home on the porch drinking beer smoking dope and pumping out 6 kids from 6 donors is not underemployment it is insanity.
PLUS
speaking ebonics, having pants down the crack of your butt, and skanky dreadlocks, gold teeth, and an attitude, from da hood- does not win a person the vice presidency at a bank….wake up and quit blaming US for YOUR self inflicted failures.
u do realize that women are the majority?
and the census bureau projects that whites will be the minority as early as 2025 maybe sooner.
but good job parroting mark.
nothing original…again.
00
u do realize that women are the majority?
and the census bureau projects that whites will be the minority as early as 2025 maybe sooner.
women always have been, so why does your side refer them as a minority, and provide them that status?
2025? most likely, you will then have to blame Hispanics and Asians for your failures I doubt they will be as guilt ridden as we are, it wont be pretty for dem in da hood
do u claim women have always had equal treatment as white men?
So what’s new? Liberals are all about victimization/blame everyone else for your failures. They speak out of both sides of their mouths-one side-we have to help those who have been held down/victimized, the other side (the action side) they do everything to keep them down
..
do u claim women have always had equal treatment as white men?
..
So, since women have not always had equal treatment they should forever be treated “special”, like a victim? You probably do; that’s what liberals say about black people.
Because they once were slaves, and once segregation was in effect that they are incapable of living productive lives and we shouldn’t expect them to.
..
It’s a bunch of BS.
ohioorrin says: February 12, 2010 at 3:51 pm
see if u can follow ok?
>>I asked a question that has a factual answer.
>>the rest of ur post is carol’s assumption of something I didnt write.
this entire thread relates back mark’s infatuation w hanson who (predictably) finds that thing were just grand back in the day (to a old white man now).
>>but things were NOT grand then or now for millions of women & people of color in this country.
>>that statement is also factual.
>>all the rest is arguing about why & what to do.
there’s that moral relativism BS…leave it to a guy whose initials represent his IQ: 00
It’s not just Rome, but many great civilizations that fall because of not reading history. It is our ‘hope’ not peril if we unite. It’s the continual, foreign wars & taxes that will be our challenges along with illegal aliens.
I speak as a VietNam veteran & just your average American who doesn’t like our children’s future gone, before they grow up, with a $13 trillion debt handed to them.
Finally, someone just wrote a great book about a small town in America that stands up to federal tyranny (corruption & bureaucrats) & ends up starting the 2nd American Revolution.
http://www.booksbyoliver.com
sure we married them didnt we?
sarcasm off, flame retardant hood up LOL
yep – u stepped in it there…
LOL
mmmmm mmmmmm mmmmm
speaking of the fall of rome……
The Fiqh Council of North America (an association of Muslims who interpret Islamic law on the North American continent) issued a ruling (fatwa) earlier this week that says Muslims shouldn’t go through full body scanners since this violate Islamic rules on modesty. Nihad Awad heads the Council on American-Islamic Relations, and their purpose is to enhance understanding of Islam, encourage dialogue, protect civil liberties and to promote justice and mutual understanding.
The Fiqh Council of North America (an association of Muslims who interpret Islamic law on the North American continent) issued a ruling (fatwa) earlier this week that says Muslims shouldn’t go through full body scanners since this violate Islamic rules on modesty. Nihad Awad heads the Council on American-Islamic Relations, and their purpose is to enhance understanding of Islam, encourage dialogue, protect civil liberties and to promote justice and mutual understanding.
That and kill people. LOTS of people.
“We’re going to have to be brave enough to say to a person, ‘its sad you can’t afford that quadruple bypass’.” – Mark
So, all that talk about hating rationing of health care was just a smoke screen. Or more precisely if rich people get their health care rationed, its a crime, if poor people get their health care rationed its just too bad.
cam,
Health care does not necessarily mean “every procedure we can think of”. For crying out loud, there are already calls for the government to pick up the tab for sex change operations! It might be that it can’t be afforded – that we don’t have a bottomless well of money, because we don’t.
Stop playing like there’s this magic pot of fairy money which you can use to provide everything for everyone all the time. It isn’t there. Never has been, never will be. Life is about decisions and trade offs.
Mark,
So first it was a quadruple bypass you wanted to ration. Now you object to a sex change operation. Which is it? Speaking of courage, do you have the courage to be that person who denies the person who needs the quadruple bypass.
You were the one who agreed with the arguments against rationing of health care when it was politically expedient to stir up old people with this talk about death panels. Now you are espousing that which you railed against. You need to make up your mind.
see if u can follow ok?
I asked a question that has a factual answer.
the rest of ur post is carol’s assumption of something I didnt write.
this entire thread relates back mark’s infatuation w hanson who (predictably) finds that thing were just grand back in the day (to a old white man now).
but things were NOT grand then or now for millions of women & people of color in this country.
that statement is also factual.
all the rest is arguing about why & what to do.
00
but things were NOT grand then or now for millions of women & people of color in this country.
Then give all your rental houses, clothes, huffy, earnings, pension, crib, etc to them.
go ahead give it all away keep working 40 hrs a week and live in a cardboard box…then come back and talk until then it is B.S. from some moron time thief-racist.
Cam,
I’m pointing out that there isn’t an endless supply of money – and its made doubly bad by the fact that we’re acting like there is while we make less and less of it. We need to get back to work and we need to budget our money – how much do we have, what do we want to do with it? There isn’t enough for everything.
Mark,
You should have said that when all of the hysteria about death panels was brewing and then spilling over. You knew then that insurance companies already rationed care, but you said nothing. You knew that end of life expenditures in many cases do little or nothing to extend the quality or length of life and yet you said nothing. Now you want to say no to a quadruple bypass.
cam,
Will you please drop the talking points? This is serious business – our nation is in crisis and we need to get our house in order.
Do I mention a political party? Do I mention a person? For crying out loud, the person responsible for this is the person I see in the mirror each morning – and ditto for you.
cam’s mentality:
rationing under insurance companies – bad.
rationing under central controlling government – good!
But all he has is talking points and raw emotionalism – no logic, no reasonable solutions to hard questions. He is of the mentality that government is the solution to everything.
What a drone.
Mark,
You seem unable to ever admit that someone who counters your points to have a superior argument. The points I have made are not talking points as you have alleged.
It appears that you were enamored with the Victor Hanson argument and carried it further with your own commentary. In the end, you were sloppy and did not remain consistent with earlier stands you have taken.
You have been called on that and you should do the honorable thing and admit to it. Or you could go on one of your famous meandering trails were you try you best to deny what has already taken place.
Cam,
You didn’t even address my points. I’m trying to get you on-subject and it seems a vain effort…
“You seem unable to ever admit that someone who counters your points to have a superior argument.”
That leaves you out.
Mark,
Perhaps you could refresh me.
What were those points? I saw a couple of questions, but nothing substantial.
Do you mention political party?
Are you now trying to act as if you are a non partisan problem solver? When did that start? You have always been about party.
Cam,
Can’t help you if you’re determined to be that obtuse. Its not about health care – what I’ve written has nothing to do with it. Nor does it have anything to do with the costs of education.
I suggest reading it again – get a dictionary if any of the words are too tough for you.
Mark,
Your car is starting to weave. Now its a failure to communicate and it certainly can’t be the writer. It must be the reader. I guess you are choosing the meandering path of obfuscation.
My argument is taking on one point at a time. If you can’t defend your argument one point at a time you won’t be able to defend the whole.
I understand you are trying to say that we must chose between limited choices and decide what is most important and then go without the rest. I have chosen education as one of those things I find valuable and necessary for a successful society to prosper. Additionally, I have chosen health care as in need of comprehensive overhaul if we are to stop the escalating costs associated with that. Without health, everything else doesn’t matter. While these are not the end I chose to discuss them because you have indicated a willingness to limit these items, something I find short sighted. It is like deciding that you don’t need to spend money on housing because you are having good weather.
Cam,
But you don’t get to do that – you don’t get all the “free” education and health care you prefer. We can’t afford it. If we said, “well, cam wants all this education and health care, so we’d better give it to him because he’s so smart”, then we have no defense against the next short sighted fool who comes along with a good cause.
You want health care and education for everyone? They you go and pay for it, yourself. Stop asking your nation to make you feel good about yourself.
We can’t spend more than we take in. Period. End of story.
We have vital priorities which must be met – national defense, law enforcement, transportation.
We must keep taxes low in order to allow for the building of wealth necessary to pay off all the debt we’ve piled up.
And so – after we’ve paid for the vital priorities, if there’s anything left over, we can see what we prefer to spend it on…but if we start getting in to a “in the richest nation in the world, surely we can afford X”, then we’ll just be getting right back where we are today.
The idea of government spreading money around and making life better has failed. Utterly and for all time. The dead horse cannot be revived, no matter how much you feed it from this point forward.
We’ll provide all the health care, education and welfare we can manage – but we’ll have to do it, you and me, through voluntary subscription of our time and money. No more cheap, feel-good morality paid for by the taxpayers and future generations. You’ll no longer be able to mortgage the future because you’ve got a guilty conscience today.
Guess what, cam, you’re going to have to start acting like an American – we all are, if we’re to get out of this.
Mark,
Now you are putting words in my mouth. This has never been about making me feel good about myself.
On education, it is vitally important for a democracy to prosper, its citizens must be well informed. Further, the idea that those who can not pay for education should be subsidized by the public is not my idea but that of Thomas Jefferson who said,
“I think by far the most important bill in our whole code, is that for the diffusion of knowledge among the people. No other sure foundation can be devised for the preservation of freedom and happiness… The tax which will be paid for this purpose is not more than the thousandth part of what will be paid to kings, priests and nobles who will rise up among us if we leave the people in ignorance.”
The cost of health care is on an upward trend with no end in sight. If we do not devise a system to control its cost we will be spending nearly 1/3 of our GDP on it. Perhaps, not until we reach that point will people be motivated to do something. In the mean time I will continue to have health care and will hope that paying for the cost of health care for the uninsured will not force the cost beyond my means. Only time will tell.
Ultimately, the rationing of health care was the most often repeated rational by those opposing a national health care plan. And now it is the rationing of health care that you propose to solve the problem. Problem is you have not indicated how you would accomplish this. What would you do when severely injured uninsured people show up at an emergency room? Would you turn them away at the point of a bayonet?
cameo
Would you turn them away at the point of a bayonet?
you mean Like they collect taxes?
Oh wait, that is at the end of a GUN!
so which is worse cannie ole boy? eh
turn your family away by force? or expect mine to pay for yours, by force??????
neo,
You are missing the point. As long as people without insurance show up sick and injured at the ER someone will have to pay for their care. Unless of course we are willing to turn them away. I suggest few would be so cold hearted. So ultimately Mark’s solutions is just talk.
KFC
I miss no point…I know many people who have No insurance and when they show up at the ER, or walk in clinic they pay a discounted price usually 1/2 and they pay cash or cc.
the discount is from savings on the paperwork and forms.
neocon,
If those people are paying 1/2 price then the rest of us are making up the difference.
Further, if they are using the ER as their primary source of medical care they are adding undue cost to their care. The ER is the most expensive way to administer health care.
Beyond that, if one ends up needing treatment for a heart attack or stroke or similar medical emergency the cost will quickly exceed credit card limits for most people. In the end we all pay the costs for the uninsured.
Deleted – beneath contempt.
Uh O! It’s potty-mouth willy again, and him playing with his hillbilly flyswatter.
Deleted – beneath contempt.
Beneath contempt, huh? (Ed. Note: Yes, very much so)
willyswanker
Deleted – beneath contempt.
Gee whod a thought…..ROTFLMAO
AMF wanker!!
Neo,
BUUUUUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!
As usual, nothing of intelligence or consequence to say.
BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SWAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FUBO & You!!wanker
sirwilliamwallace says:
February 12, 2010 at 10:13 pm
Deleted – beneath contempt.
What? (Neo at 7:26 pm)
“Deleted – beneath contempt”
Did Neo get deleted too?
Oooooo Goody, I hope so. And with the “beneath contempt” tag as well.
Oh, so it ain’t so!
HA!
Wonder what he might have said?
At least if his insults are deleted too, I might think that you guys have a shred of decency when moderating.
Believe me, I’m not trying to be a complete a-hole when I ask Mark about his brother, just trying to get an honest answer of how to justify saying “we don’t have enough money to help you – get a job and do it yourself” when you are disabled. I am actually trying to understand his point of view, whether I agree with it or not.
With Neo, however, I could care less.
He has proven that has has not a human bone of compassion, intelligence, or self-respect, or respect for others in his body, so if I am an a-hole, so to speak, to him, it is just par for the course and actually much less rude than what he does to pople here on an hourly basis.
So, yea if you delete him too – at least it shows fairness (somewhat)
Bye the way, Mark – still waiting for an answer to the question….
Tick-tock, tick-tock….
sirwilliamwallace says:
February 12, 2010 at 10:13 pm
Deleted – beneath contempt.
Ha Ha Ha AMF….wanker LOL LOL
PSSSSST hey wanker
you f-n DUMMY
i re-posted YOUR deletion, and you are so stupid that you thought I got deleted?
BWWWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAA Ha Ha Ha
sirwilliamwallace says:
February 12, 2010 at 10:13 pm
Deleted – beneath contempt.