Health Care Update Thread
Tags: Obamacare.
(Blogging Note: This is clearly the most important issue of the day – and will be until the vote is taken on Sunday. We’ll have an open thread up on this issue for Saturday and Sunday. So that the comments don’t get too bogged down and hard to follow.)
TEA Party will defend Democrats who vote “no”. A good thing – those Democrats who do show the courage to vote in favor of America on this issue deserve to be defended.
ObamaCare expands the power of the IRS. Naturally – when you’re acting like a little fascist you want ever more coercive power over the citizens.
Romney and Huckabee poll well against Obama for 2012. Which means people are getting in an “anybody but Obama mood”.
Bill would cost Caterpillar $100 million in first year.
The more people look in to it, the more tax increases they find.
Christian Medical Association condemns abortion provisions.
They are lying, you know?
CBO numbers bogus?
An aroused electorate: 100,000 calls per hour to Congress. Anyone want to take bets on the pro/con breakdown?
Mark Noonan is co-author (with Matt Margolis) of Caucus of Corruption: The Truth About The New Democratic Majority. He also blogs at Nevada News and Views. Follow Mark on Twitter.
191 Responses to “Health Care Update Thread”
Caucus of Corruption
This bill will pass. Good for the USA. Finally, the richst country on earth provides its own citizens with universal health coverage.
good for you!
Will it actually be universal health coverage, mza330, or a more watered-down version of it?
well it looks like it won’t be universal, but close to it.
Gents,
What this is is a great first step toward single payer universal helth care in the future. It isn’t perfect it’s not the bill that I would have preferred be passed but it is better than allowing 45 000 Americans to die every year because they have no access to health care because of a lack of health insurance.
Once this is behind us the President can focus on jobs and the next big fight amnesty for 16.5 million undocumented immigrant workers within US borders.
Remember Auschwitz?
Keep whistling past that graveyard Sadie sweetie, ram this thing through and you’ll be hard pressed to escape being among that 45,000 that are going to die because they were forced to sign onto something they never wanted, are then starved to death, and put in mass graves.
You better pray that your wish doesn’t come true.
And no, I’m not joking. You will either flee this country or hope this thing doesn’t pass.
It will never get off the ground. The law suits from the States will ground it. You cannot, under any circumstances, believe the federal government has the Constitutional authority to mandate Americans buy health insurance. There goes a big part of the funding for this behemoth monstrosity.
Medicare won’t be cut 500 billion either. Hey, but, that’s only 500 billion in projected savings that won’t be realized. Even if these savings were realized you can’t count the same money twice! That, though, is just the tip of this iceberg!
As if the 183 billion (which is really a -317 billion given they don’t really intend to cut Medicare) in projected savings over next 10 years amounted to hill a beans anyway given our current fiscal situation. Add to this the current 100 trillion in unfunded liabilities in Medicare and Medicaid not to mention the upcoming unfunded social security liabilities and you should start to see that, unfortunately, this hill won’t materialize, because the beans aren’t magic and the CBO estimate is garbage. The CBO has to work with the numbers they were given. You know garbage in means garbage out.
No, a lot of liberals just fell on their swords to save a President who’s already failed. The bright spot for the left is that Jimmy Carter will no longer be considered the worst President in US history.
So, sing, dance and celebrate this night as the band plays on, while the good ship Donk slowly sinks and Captain Obama and crew (maybe they can get Leonardo DiCaprio to play Obama in the movie) slowly disappears beneath the waves of resentment this bill has created throughout the electorate.
Rightlane,
You have less of a grasp on law than I do and I’m always asking for help with legal issues. The states don’t have a leg to stanhd on I’m told. It’s just political grandstanding. Many Southern governors did the same thing in ‘64.
So, Sadie, what I hear you’re saying by omission is that you agree we can’t pay for this. The GAO report is worthless. Medicare won’t be cut. Obama has failed and will go down in history as a worse President than Carter. That this bill has created an unprecedented wave of animosity that will doom the Donks in 2010. I can live with that.
However, without a single-payer Government run option, where in the Constitution, does the congress derive its power to mandate private parties purchase health insurance from private companies? Half a dozen attorneys I work with say on this point the bill’s is in trouble. I haven’t heard anyone credible (whom I know personally) make the opposing argument.
That being said, I do work with conservatives. Finally, how do you know whatI know or don’t know about the law?
This tea party thing is ludicrous….these people they show on TV didn’t even vote for Obama and the democrats to begin with….so what’s the big deal? His opponents come to protest about a democratic bill. So what?
If you didn’t vote for the president, then you are in the minority, hence the reason he is in office.
got that right!
and as usual…00…double digit IQ stooge…playing the yes man…how typical
This tea party thing is ludicrous
The only thing ludicrous is what’s in your mind.
On November 5, 2008 yes we were in the minority … but that has since changed. The people see now what a terrible mistake they made. They seen what a terrible mistake they made by listening to their communist professors, and what a terrible mistake them made listening to the Daily Kos, and what a terrible mistake they made listening to ABC, CNN, MSNBC, and the like scumbags.
Now you are the minority, a minority in power, under pressure to BACK OFF or there’s going to be trouble!!!
Jeremiah,
There might be a few fools who take up arms or like you someone who can do nothing but spew veiled threats but most Americans realize that even if their freedom seems worthless their stuff is too valueable to them to throw away on a political or religious principle.
A question for you: What person on the right will fire the first shot to start that “trouble” you promise? Will ou do it in defense of your religion? Do you realize that makes you a de facto traitor to your own nation?
One of two things will happen for them to start a war …
1. They will start to jail people for not signing on to their healthcare sham.
2. Gun control legislation.
So, don’t try anything stupid. For we will suck the wind right out of ya.
We will see in November if there aren’t some Independants out there who disagree with you.
really?…didnt vote for who?…and exactly how do you know that stooge…or…to be blund…you are a lying stooge…nothing but a clueless bimbo without a clue…
ATTN ATTN
Flying Monkey echo chamber!!!
HELLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOO!! any body home? Mc Fly!!
CO
see arguing with idiots pg-1
neo, anyone who reads books by Glenn Beck deserves to be banned.
Seriously, that guy is deranged!
On another note, do you deny that the tea party movement were the same people who voted for republicans in the 2008 elections?
If they voted for the party that lost, doesn’t it make sense that they would be up in arms now. Didnt you vote for Mccain and Palin? if you did, its no suprise you are against this president and his policies.
Many conservatives didn’t vote mazzy, including me. McCain was just another version of Obama. But it’s interesting to see that you feel that the minority coalitions protests should not be considered. I guess that makes sense though emanating from someone who comes from a mainly white, homogenous country who favors tyrannical rule.
and now he doesnt like beck…lol…what do you expect from simple minded stooges neo…intelligent discussion?
massah1369
neo, anyone who reads books by Glenn Beck deserves to be banned.
OK ban me mr big……..OH WAIT it isnt your site…..must suck to be you, Not only do I listen to Beck…..
come here so I can whisper to you in your ear……….( I listen to Rush also)…..SHHHHHHHHH
AYIEEEEEEEEEEEEE
now back to the fork moron.
ok, so if you didn’t vote Cluster, then you really don’t have a voice in YOUR government.
People that don’t vote can’t sit there and complain about anything, you didn’t vote, its your country, and if yo don’t care enough to vote, then you lose your right of input. sorry.
also, since when does Norway, or any country in Europe have tyrannical rule?
Maybe you should get out of your home state once in a while in order to experience the world.
js,
i don’t expect anything from a religious imaginary god fearing person.
You can’t even have a civil conversation about health care…but ill say it anyway..
Congrats on the new bill, come monday morning, you will be a more compassionate society!!
Deleted: Ageist bigotry
I pay a hell of lot of taxes mazzy, which gives me every right to opine. And anyone that rejects minority opposition, definitely favors tyrannical rule, as you just did.
.
I really enjoy your posts though. It gives me great insight into an undeveloped mind.
Deleted: Homosexual bigotry
Deleted: Bigotry
cluster,
you’re the undeveloped mind.
You can opine all you want, but it won’t matter. The majority has spoken with their VOTES..something you said you didn’t. Too bad old friend, I hope next election you vote, it would do you good.
what a cheap shot mza…your pickled brain cant deal with facts so you use your bigotry to dodge them…
what a stooge…your brainless ad hoc is nothing more than lib-turds…
massah1369
so enjoy your 15 years grandpa.
I’ll take the 15 years and be happy.
With that said I have seen many many more 30 and under die in my lifetime than friends my age,
SO KEEP THINKING YOU HAVE 40+ .
you could die tonight or tomorrow.
Smugness of being young is a fart in the wind which may be dissipated very quickly.
Deleted: Homosexual bigotry
Deleted: Homosexual bigotry
Deleted: Racial and homosexual bigotry
What the RRL is going to great lengths to cover up is the fact that the TEA Party movement has become a haven for disenchanted moderate Democrats who are not happy about having their party hijacked by the Rabidly Radical Left but who are not ready to shift all the way over to the GOP. The TEA Party movement is a nonpartisan grass-roots movement based on the belief that the Constitution is and should remain the law of the land, that we are Taxed Enough Already, and that the country is moving in the wrong direction. The movement offers a voice to those who do not feel that their parties do.
It is not only convenient but important for the Left to pretend that this movement is nothing more than a restatement of the political position indicated by voting Republican in 2008. it is both simple-minded and deceptive to promote this fallacy, but far less threatening to the Left than admitting how much of the traditional Dem party they are losing.
FmrMarine,
So what? You are still a failure as a Human Being.
“The TEA Party movement is a nonpartisan grass-roots movement based on the belief that the Constitution is and should remain the law of the land, that we are Taxed Enough Already, and that the country is moving in the wrong direction”
Nope. As we learned in the other thread, it’s just incoherent rage from people with no grounding in reality. But this sort of thing is clearly over your head.
this congress is responsible for creating 2 trillion dollars of debt…unfunded liablilities…in 14 months…and it wants to add trillions more in the coming months…thats no good for america, or the american people…congress owes us a duty to be honest and concise…yet these socialist libtard progressives hide and lie and cheat and steal at every turn…
mza…you got your head up your arse if you think what you say is true….you might get away with it when you are addresssing libtards…but not here…and not in the face of facts that comprise the whole truth…and…
…
canuk…go home…you are a clueless bimbo…and dont belong here…
js, what did i say that wasn’t true?
A large portion of the Tea Party supporters are republicans.
they did not vote for any democrats and they are therefore against democratic policies.
But alas, you’ll have to wait until next election, right now, you’re a minority by the looks of it.
congrats on your health care plan!
Dems are 6 votes short mazzy, put a cap on the champaign, of course I sure don’t understand why you care that much. I couldn’t give a f*ck about holland, or whatever mainly white homogenous country you come from.
.
And do you have proof that all tea partiers are republicans? I know many of them, and they are actually independents. So you may want to actually think before engaging your brain. I know it can be tough.
CLuster,
I said the Tea Party in general didn’t vote DEMOCRAT! what don’t you understand about that. I don’t care if they voted for the party of god! it makes sense, if they are against this administraton, because they didn’t vote for it to begin with!
and from your own Fox news, it states that they are 2 votes short. Let’s face it, its over, Congrats USA!
do you deny that the tea party movement were the same people who voted for republicans – mazzy
.
I said the Tea Party in general didn’t vote DEMOCRAT! – mazzy
.
Is it just me, or does mazzy seem a little confused?
Cluster,
last time I will repeat this. You must have been on the short bus your whole life.
The TEA PARTY is PRIMARILY anti-DEMOCRAT! I don’t care if they are Republican, or independent. MOST of the people in the TEA party are against democrats, hence their dissaproval of the policies of this administration. Its not a shock, they didn’t vote for democrats, and they don’t agree with them now!
is that simple enough for you? If you need help, let me know.
Main Entry: omis·sion
Pronunciation: O-’mi-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : something neglected, left out, or left undone
2 : the act, fact, or state of leaving something out or failing to do something esp. that is required by duty, procedure, or law omission>
…
Main Entry: eva·sion
Pronunciation: i-’vA-zh&n
Function: noun
1 : a means of evading
2 : the act or an instance of evading
…
Main Entry: mis·rep·re·sen·ta·tion
Pronunciation: mis-”re-pri-”zen-’tA-sh&n, -z&n-
Function: noun
: an intentionally or sometimes negligently false representation made verbally, by conduct, or sometimes by nondisclosure or concealment and often for the purpose of deceiving, defrauding, or causing another to rely on it detrimentally; also : an act or instance of making such a representation
….
….
….
who cares that “what did i say that wasn’t true?”…you are still a 2 bit liar…face it…you are a mental midget…and really have nothing to say worth hearing…
You still can’t prove any of that, so your “opinion” is worthless. Which is why I am making fun of you. How do you know that there are no Democrats amongst the tea partiers?
http://www.politico.com/livepulse/0310/EXCLUSIVE__Democrats_plan_doc_fix_after_reform.html?showall
…
the dnc should be tried for treason…
AND HUNG!!!
wow neo, great insightful post…let’s hang the dissenters….
You must be a happy 64 year old. You have supposedly fought for the people of the US to have freedom of speech, and you say opposition people should be hung?
Mark, why don’t you delete those posts?
(Ed. Note: because it is in the finest of American traditions to hang the government.)
is that all ya got? lip service to your false god mza?…at your best you really shouldnt hang out here…you dont address the issues…you are a troll…and the worse…welll…you and 00 must be related…both of you take up the same BS tanking points and rhetoric…and neither of you have any common sense…two stooges…hey!@!!maybe if ya grab canuk you can make a movie!! 3 STOOGES!!
+massah
Treason IS a capital charge, hanging was the prescribed way of punishment for centuries.
Nothing to delete, but your forker raging nonsense.
Glad to see you are for censorship, dont whine when it comes to your posts.
js02
Notice massah1369 showed up and posts all day long just when sadie/bloch/pain disappeared…….FORKER FORKER !!!!
neo, its called 9/80 work schedule. We have every other friday off at work jackass.
I have today off, I am online posting on this blog.
What the hell is a forker?? Seriously, post on the issues you fake marine!
oh but neo KNOWS all our work schedules & jobs.
>if neo feels qualified to comment on jobs & schedules he obviously knows NOTHING about, imagine what his other opinions are worth.
mazzie1369
you fake marine!
got some of that big $8500.00 SEMI weekly money you brag about so much about to lose girly”man” ?
say $10,000.00 ?
MMMMMM?
camon big man, lets see what ya got besides an ALLIGATOR mouth and a CANARY ASS
“(Ed. Note: because it is in the finest of American traditions to hang the government.)”
You think treason is an American tradition? Interesting.
Mark,
Can you point to a point to a time in US history after 1789 when the citizens rose up and hung a member of the federal government and weren’t tried for sedition or treason?
You think treason is an American tradition? Interesting.
Democrats are famous for it. And yes, THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS COMMITTED TREASON.
THEY ARE COMMUNISTS … and WE DON’T DO COMMUNISM IN THIS COUNTRY!!! PERIOD!!
Democrats need about six more votes from House members…
.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aEE5p_J1ZJRg
.
mazzy, what are you doing watching Fox news? Do other liberals know that?
dude, they need 2 more, don’ be an idiot.
CNN, FoxNews, NYtimes, and even Nationalreview blog have it 2 votes shy. Its over.
Congrats! if you’re ever in Texas, or Houston, let me know, Ill buy you a celebratory bottle of piss, or like you put it, budweiser.
mazzy, I sense that you are comfortable than with the federal government mandating people to buy through private insurance companies, right? Why would you support private insurance companies? And how do you fell about the rest of the nation paying for all Nebraskans insurance, as they wont have to pay? Is that equitable.
mza is nothing but a shxt stirrer cluster…i dont think he lives in america…
js,
ask mark to track my IP, I am in Houston tx. Seriously, stop bsing people.
He is sadie’s replacement from the fork….. probably gay freddy putz back again.
For the record Mr Schwartz is bisexual.
For the record Mr Schwartz is
bisexuala good for nothing sack of perversion. A disease!!Private insurance companies are an essential part of the market in this country.
You can’t get rid of them now, they are to powerful and to large. Overall, if the Federal Government isnt going t be a single payer for everyone, then its ok to let people buy from private insurance. Just regulate them heavily to make sure they don’t deny people coverage, like this bill does.
for people that can afford to pay their premiums, these insurance companies have done a good job by all accounts, so let’s let everyone into the system, and take away the excuses for not covering people.
As far as Nebraska goes, so what? Its not equitable, but hardly anything is in this coutnry. when the system is set up as a laissez fair capitalist system, and its each “state” out on its own, I am sure they all would have done the same thing Mr. Nelson did for his state. It may not be fair, but so what, life’s not fair. Move on.
and this worries you why???
FORKER TROLL ALERT!!!!!
its ok to let people buy from private insurance – mazzy
.
Is it ok to mnadate them? With a fine as a penalty?
.
Do you support governors right to sue over the Nebraska exemption?
The government through the commerce clause can mandate some things. I posted a study done by Georgetown Law about this yesterday for Amazona.
Its simple, interstate commerce in this case gives the government you elected the power to mandate coverage for everyone.
I am not saying its right or wrong. Either way, the supreme court has historically been very loose with the commerce clause. So thats the way the cookie crumbles.
And also, governors can sue Nebraska all they want, but odds are they won’t win because no law was broken during negotiations for this bill. Is it unfair, sure it is, is it illegal…no, its not. What Senator Nelson negotiated was something all senators would have done. He just was the one that ended up getting it.
He likes to be a slave. What else can be said?
Better to be a slave to Reason than a slave to Religion.
Better to be a slave to
Reasonstupidity and lies than a slave toReligionthe truth.Gee, something awful strange about that picture…kinda looks cross-eyed and upside down to me.
mazzy, I hope you answer my series of questions, I really want to know how much of socialist you are. And incidentally, do you believe that the US constitution supports government mandated health insurance?
the commerce clause allows the government to do this health care mandate. yes. Historically the supreme court has found that the commerce clause in the constitution can be interpreted that way.
So you are saying that the federal government, per the US constitution, can mandate private citizens to purchase certain products? Really? Do you have that SC decision available?
I posted a relevant paper and cases under a different topic last evening. here is an excerpt from the Congressional Research Service, which is non partisan.
Certain health insurance mandate proposals could rely on Congress’s spending and taxing authority. For example, if Congress chose to require individuals to have health insurance by levying a tax, then using the revenue for funding health benefits, this could be viewed as an appropriate use of Congress’s taxing and spending power. Or, if Congress were to require individuals to purchase health insurance, and then enforce this requirement by conditioning receipt of a tax benefit (e.g., a tax credit) on compliance, this also could be seen as a legitimate exercise of Congress’s taxing authority. Similarly, if Congress were to enact a proposal under which individuals who did not purchase health insurance were subject to a tax penalty (e.g., a loss of a tax deduction), this also could be seen as valid under this clause of the Constitution.
In addition, Congress’s Spending Clause authority could be invoked if a proposal to require individuals to purchase health insurance involves state participation. Congress has frequently promoted its policy goals by conditioning the receipt of federal funds on state compliance with certain requirements. Accordingly, if Congress were to condition payment of certain funds to states based on whether that state requires its residents to have health insurance, this could also be seen as acceptable under the Spending Clause. While the Court has recognized that Congress cannot force states to take certain courses of action because of state sovereignty protected under the Tenth Amendment, the conditioning of funds can be a legitimate inducement to get states to follow the will of Congress. Thus, if Congress were to grant federal funds to states that enacted laws which required individuals to purchase health insurance, this type of law would likely be considered a legitimate use of Congress’s spending clause authority
There you have it.
U.S. Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell made the following remarks on the Senate floor Friday regarding health care reform:
“Well, it’s come down to a few wavering votes.
“That’s what this year-long debate has come to: a handful of Democrats had been holding out to see the final bill.
“Now we have it.
“And anyone who was waiting to see what the final bill meant for government spending should vote no, because this bill spends even more.
“Anyone waiting to see what the final bill meant for Medicare should vote no, because the Medicare cuts in this bill are even deeper than the Senate bill that Speaker Pelosi said Democrats didn’t want to vote on.
“Anyone waiting to see what the final bill meant for taxes should vote no, because the tax increases in this bill are even higher than the Senate bill.
“Anyone waiting to see what the final bill did to the cost curve should vote against this bill, because this bill is likely to bend the cost curve up even further than the Senate bill, not down.
“If you were waiting for a bill without the CLASS Act in it — a provision that even top Democrats describe as a Ponzi scheme, then you’ll vote against this bill, because it’s still in there.
“If you were waiting to see if they’d cut out the sweetheart deals that have outraged the nation and soured the public on the entire legislative process, then you have to vote against this bill, because there are even more of them in there now.
“If you were waiting for a bill that costs less, then you’ll vote against this bill, because it costs even more than the last one.
“And if you were waiting for a bill that wouldn’t compel taxpayers to cover the cost of abortions, then you’ll vote against this bill because this is, the National Right to Life Committee says, the most abortion-expansive piece of legislation ever to reach the floor of the House of Representatives.
http://mcconnell.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=PressReleases&ContentRecord_id=db834f41-4e33-4f33-ac0b-ad2962bd5d4a
Congrats JS! you now have yourself a health care plan like we do in Europe! Ill toast to that tonight!
dizzy bimbo…we dont have a health care plan…if they actually try to say its passed…they will be gridlocked in courts for a decade…the only thing we can learn from you…is that you are stupid enough to jump to conclusions…
There is only one court in the United States, js02, that can overturn this piece of legislation once signed into law.
There is only one court in the United States, js02, that can overturn this piece of legislation once signed into law.
No, they aren’t the only ones … the people can and WILL overturn it.
You pass it … and we’ll condemn it … in no uncertain personal terms.
Jeremiah,
The “people” have no instrument by whcih they can “overturn” this law.
yeah, the people are more powerful than the government sadie.
they (the government) supposed to be representing us … but when they don’t, we have the right through the second amendment to throw off tyrannical government and put new government in.
mazzy,
Do you believe healthcare is a right? Or a priveledge?
Health care is neither, its a service provided to citizens when they need it.
But the affordable access to health care, and the reasonalbe expectatin of good care is a right. You can have the best system in the world, with the most modern technology, but if only 50% can afford it, its not morally acceptable.
This is the case in the states. So in short, affordable access to health care, and a reasonable expectation of care should be a rght. yes.
Just like it in Europe, Japan, South Korea, and other modern western countries.
First of all, over 80% of Americans have health insurance, and many, like myself, can afford but opt out.
.
And you have also suggested that it is a right, which leads me to ask: Should nutritious food be a right? Should adequate shelter be a right? What should be done with smokers, drug addicts, etc, that knowingly violate good health standards?
OK, we discussed this in a previous thread, but I will address it again.
People don’t have to go to the doctor if they aren’t sick. But if they get sick, I believe they have to have adequate access and affordable access to health care.
With regards to your piont about food and such being a right. You can’t tell people what to eat, you can’t tell them to smoke or not. What you can do, and what is done all the time, is limit their freedoms with regards to those behaviors via taxes, or laws limiting their access to those things.
You can’ drink under the age of 21, you can’t smoke under the age of 18. There have been numerous laws passed in different states that ban the use of certain cooking oils in restaurats. All those are done for the public good. Now can you stop people from behaving how they want, no, its their freedom, but you can isolate that freeom without affecting others.
People can violate good health standards all they want, within the bounds of the law. With that same reasoning, when they get sick, its a right to expect affordable, and reasonable access to health care.
How do you tax illegal drugs? And despite the high taxes levied on cigarrettes, there are still a huge amount of them, so I will argue that taxes are not the barrier you might think they are?
.
Now, knowing that people with thses behavioural habits, require much more expensive care, do you support a higher premiums for them, or would you support more restricted access?
.
Secondly, Medicare is soon to be insolvent. Tell us how stripping the program of $500 billion will effect access?
Like most Europeans, he doesn’t understand what a human right is – he thinks that his least desire is a right.
Mark
1369 isnt eurotrash, just the latest forker.
Mark,
mazzy is a communist at heart, but currently loving the capitalist monetary rewards he is receiving. He is definitely a conflicted person.
Mark,
you are delusional. “like most Europeans”
Like most Americans, you don’t know fascist from communist and nazi.
We in Europe and all other advanced countries don’t believe some magical gd gives us any rights, in face, he doesnt even exist. Keep your God for yourself, im so happy im just visiting this place.
(Ed. Note: If there is no God endowing you with rights, then who does? Anything given by a human being can be taken away by a human being – what God gives, however, cannot be justly taken away. It is because you European have lost this that you have consigned yourselves to slavery.)
yes cluster,
all Modern Western nations are communists because they have Health Care. All of them are blatan communists!
hahaha..don’t be ignorant.
mazzy1369
Keep your God for yourself, im so happy im just visiting this place.
And HOPEFULLY, it will be a very SHORT visit!
“(Ed. Note: If there is no God endowing you with rights, then who does? Anything given by a human being can be taken away by a human being – what God gives, however, cannot be justly taken away. It is because you European have lost this that you have consigned yourselves to slavery.)”
I’m sure this makes sense in your head. Out here int he real world? Not so much.
Enjoy your slavery to the Catholic Church, Mark. Sure beats thinking for yourself, right?
who cares what mzatard believes…its pointless and without merit…
js02
a recycled sadieblochpain forker.
js,
like your life.
Let’s see, hmm, a captialist society that depends upon workers to provide labor or services to provide profit for owners of shareholders needs as healthy a workforce as possible, so I would say it is a right.
Also mazzy,
If this bill becomes law, what is to stop people from not carrying insurance, until they actually need it? If carriers can not deny coverage, why would I carry insurance if I don’t need it?
That’s an easy fix. If you don’t carry insurance, you’re paying a penalty. Which can be let’s say $250 per month.
Well, if your insurance costs let’s say $200, then it would make sense for you to carry it.
Yo ucan discourage behavior by imposing fines or tariffs. Thats an easy fix. Also, the government is giving subsidies, so there is even more incentive to carry insurance.
We have the same thing in Norway. We can go with private insurance, over the government plan, but we have to carry insurance, if you don’t you pay a heave fine. So financially, it makes sense for people to get insurance.
I’m sure some of those bored agents at the Internal Revenue Service could find some means by which to assure that everyone required to be covered is.
yeah, covered in the grave.
mazzy,
Can you cite the article, or section, within the constitution that gives the federal government the authority to provide health insurance?
Article I, Section 8 Clause 3
Article I, Section 8 Clause 1
Tax and Spend power and COmmerce clause. According to the leading law professors in Georgetown and Princeton and Stanford, its legal. Argue with them if you want.
Many states will take this to the supreme court, (Idaho being the first)which is a cut above the law professors. I definitely believe that this authority the feds want, is completely unconstitutional.
Cluster,
well you’d be wrong. definitely wrong.
Idaho is posturing, its symbolic. even the threat of cuting off federal funding will force their hands.
Idaho will lose.
mazzy,
You DEFINITELY support many communist tenets, it’s just a fact. Embrace it. Only weak people support socialism/communism. America is a cut above any other nation on this planet, but people like you are dead set on dragging this country into the mediocrity enjoyed by other countries.
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btw, when do you go back home to your safe, white, homogenous, boring country.
cluster
feet first hopefully! and soon!
blahblahblah….you thin you’re a cut above the rest….Its safe to say you’re not.
You have corruption in politics like no other western nation, you have high crime, a financial system in pieces, huge amounts of debt, low public awareness and participation in elections, You have immigrants that don’t even speak english, yet, they are citizens, you have a fractured society with high divorce rate, abortion, superficial civil rights issues. You have the most money, but yet, have the highest level of poverty compared to any western nation. You spend the most on health care, yet you’re not healthier for it.
On top of that, your GDP per capita has been steady the past decade, and with inflation, its actually gone down.
If this is a cut above the rest, ill pass. NO thanks! hahaha…
I am here on a 10 year term with Statoil…we are drilling in the Gulf of Mexico, its funny, your own companies like Exxon can’t drill here,but we are drilling it, and selling it back to the US liteally 40 miles off your shore! hahah..wow, you’re definetely a cut above let me tell you!
Thank the democrats in office for the off shore drilling… they are afraid of American Oil Companies making money with our own resources…
Deleted: Boring bigoted rant
We in Europe and all other advanced countries don’t believe some magical gd – mazzy
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But they do believe in the US Military, which has saved their ass on a couple of occasions.
once again…blah blah blah…last I checked, the Russians were the ones in Berlin first. Last I checked, you didn’t enter the war in Europe until 1944!!
That’s all you have, the glory of past generations. Your best days are behind you, and it sucks, i know, but don’t worry, soon you’ll be like the British…
You really need to get a sense of humor. You can dish but can’t take it. Is that it?
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I suspect you are all of 24 years old, right? Idealistic? Compassionate? Thinking that conservatives are racist, mean people, and that if only there was no religion, and more socialist countries, everything would be just great. Have I got that about right?
actually I am 28. and i work in the real world. You don’t become Engineering Project Manager in Oil & Gas by being idealistic.
Big Oil? Again, do your liberal friends know that?
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But you do believe that if there was no religion, and more secular, socialist countries, the planet would be a better place, don’t you?
Oh don’t wish that on them MZA! There are enough Arsenal fans in America as it is!
While the Court has recognized that Congress cannot force states to take certain courses of action because of state sovereignty protected under the Tenth Amendment, the conditioning of funds can be a legitimate inducement to get states to follow the will of Congress.
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So, if states opted out of federal fundng, they (the feds), could not mandate the purchase. Interesting. I will email my governor.
not a single state in the US can opt out because they need funding. You really thnk states can function without Federal Dollars?
Go ahead, email him, im sure it will end up in Junk Mail. hahaha.
States have opted out of federal funding before on certain issues, look it up
I am not saying they haven’t
but with this bill, they won’t, in times like these, when most states are running budget deficits, it would be political suicide for any governor.
Can’t do it.
Have you ever thought about the expense side of the ledger? Do liberals ever think about the expense side? Incidentally, TX and UT, too name a couple of conservative states, are running in the surplus.
cluster, do you want to know what a typical RRL lemming thinks of the expense side of the ledger?
Arctic Fox writes: ” I don’t care how much healthcare reform changes the budget of the country. I don’t care if it drives the deficit up.”
There you go. The takers, the moochers, have no interest at all in what expenses the producers incur in providing them with anything they decide they are entitled to.
mazzy,
Answer the question about Medicare. How will stripping the program of $500 billion effect the program?
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Also, do you realize that benefits for this program do not kick in for four years? What should be done with those uninsured in the meantime? Or do they just have to wait?
hey, waiting 4 years is better than waiting for eternity!
the bill is not perfect, but so what, it has some good provisions right now that kick in right away.
Harry Reid said on the floor of the Senate that 123 people die everyday because of no healthcare. By my estimates, that means that nearly 180,000 people will die in the next four years. Do you not feel responsible about them? Do you think we could craft a bill that gave earlier benefits?
like I said, you can put out numbers all you want, its not a perfect bill, and under the circumstances, 4 years is better than never! what’s so hard to understand about that.
I never said the bill was perfect, but hell, its been 50 years and your coutnry has let people die wthout health insurance…whats another 4 years right?
you don’t like the bill, contact your senators and congressmen.
Our own research shows that waste in the Medicare system could be as high as 635 billion dollars.
And of course this massive omnibus takeover will run by a different government than the one that has allowed Medicare to overrun its budget by billions and experience waste “as high as 635 billion dollars”. ????
And how does that work? Who will run THIS program? Massively larger, massively more complex, massively more ‘comprehensive’, yet somehow expected to avoid the pitfalls encountered by literally every single government entitlement program in history.
It’s the Magical Thinking of the dedicated Progressive. It’s the “This Time” mantra. “THIS TIME” it will work. “THIS TIME” will be different.
soon you’ll be like the British… – mazzy
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More evidence that mazzy wants to lower the standards, hope and promise of America
you did it yourself pal,
look at the state of your country today compared to even 20 years ago.
Your a shell of what you were.
I read that the US has one of the highest rates of abortion in the modern world, and the highest rate of divorce in the modern world.
You’re socially and morally bankrupt. its over.
There it is folks. Mazzy has just acknowledged that, due to secular liberlaism, abortion on demand lobby, and entitlements, America is soon to be bankrupt, and he is absolutely right!
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Thank you mazzy. I led you right into that.
you did it yourself pal, – mazzy
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You obviously don’t know me very well.
hahahhahahahahaha…
you led me into that? you led me into what?
You’re kiddng right?
Every European country is secular and liberal, and has legalized abortion, and many entitlements. The difference is, we do it right, we know how to handle our own society.
America on the other hand doesn’t know how to govern. YOu elect people in to office who are corrupt.
You can’t even run your own post office! seriously, is this the best you can do? Are these politicians who are corrupt and at the mercy of lobbyists the best yu can do?
The problem is not with Liberalism, and secularism, Nope, the problem is with YOUR PEOPLE and your SOCIETY!
You just don’t get it. Your education system is crumbling, and why? because the people you elect to run your countr are inept, and corrupt, and they can’t do anything right but line their own pockets.
Believe me, Europe is heaven compared to here. All you guys are good for is praying and goin to church. Keep praying, maybe god will come down and save your country, you better hope he exists and that he will come down,cause your own people are leading you to a road of destrction. ill give you 20 years, max.
mazzy,
You are the one that pointed to liberal policies that have ruined our country, and I agree with you. Then you proceeded into a rant about Christians. Wierd.
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Incidentally, I also agree with you about the corruption (thank goodness there is none of that in Europe, right?). And that is why you should join the tea party, because that is what it is all about. Opposing liberla policies and corrupted politicians. You are a tea partier – congrats!!
“There you have it.” “It” being a series of legal challenges and pushbacks from states on the grounds of states’ rights.
mz quotes an OPINION. Not a legal opinion, but probably an academic one.
Yes, you saw it here–mz personally linked abortion to social and moral bankruptcy.
Maybe he’s not as ignorant as he comes across.
Deleted. Anti-religious rant. Don’t you ever learn?
YOu elect people in to office who are corrupt.
You need to talk to people like kmg, sadieannmartin, etc, etc then, mza.
They elected the most immoral, incompetent and corrupt one of them all.
And you know why? Because they received an education in immorality, incompetence and corruption.
It’s sickening!!!
I never said the bill was perfect – mazzy
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But you want us to adopt it anyway? Do you often accept mediocrity?
Cluster, you have been mediocre for a ver long time, the days of American exceptionalism are long gone.
You have to accept mediocre because you can’t do any better. Look at the state of your country, what have you done the past 20 years that can be considered above mediocre?
Nothing. Your country is mediocre, nothing wrong with that, just the truth.
So we should just accept that fact and go about our day? You’re hysterical.
if I remember correctly, you didn’t vote. So i would say you already accepted the status quo.
Do you only accept perfection? If man is not perfectible, can anything man creates be perfect?
No, but we can do MUCH better on this issue.
So really mazzy, what you support is mediocrity, right?
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- “It’s not a perfect bill, but approve it anyway.”
- “You’ve lost your exceptionalism, so live with it”
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Should everyone just accept being mediocre? Just do a half assed job, and complain about everything? Is that the world you envision? Or do you think there could be something better?
there is something better, its called Europe.
You should visit, Oslo is great this time of year.
Isn’t that why you buy things “Made in China?” How is that not your fault? Aren’t you the guys who hated the unions so much that all the companies seized the opportunity to drive them out and outsource their labor to save money for themselves? And you dare to ask where all the jobs went? Why America doesn’t “Make, Mine and Grow things? LOL!
companies seized the opportunity to drive them out and outsource their labor to save money for themselves?
Um, no, that was your buddy Bill Clinton, remember? who signed NAFTA. He said, ‘Take this job and ship it’ and is much of the reason why our economy is hurting today.
Jeremiah,
You are misinformed. American jobs were leaving for Asia and South America in the manufacturing sector long before NAFTA.
To each his own mazzy. And I still don’t know why you want America to be like Europe. Last time I was in Germany, the food was subpar and the women were…….well let’s just say I didn’t want to go to any wet t-shirt contests.
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And incidentally, I could not find one, not one, Mexican food restaurant in France or Germany. What’s up with that?
I dont like Germany either. The women are ugly.
Try Norway, or Sweded, best women you’ll see.
and if you couldn’t find Mexican food in France, then you didnt look hard enough.
Right next to the Notre Dame, before you cross the Seine, next to my condo, there is a great little mexican place, its called Emiliano Restaurant. Best Mexican place in Paris.
I think I get it now mazzy. You want everyone to be like you. Not much into diversity are you? Of course coming from a mainly white, homogenous country, I can understand that.
sure, you got me! NOT! you’re a simpleton.
Yup, I definitely have you pegged mazzy. A mediocre, anti-diversity, secular, that supports big, inefficient government bureaucracies. Good to know
the only place with an inefficient government is the US pal, fix your own government first.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20100315/thl-cancer-patients-denied-treatment-d831572.html
Thats a fear tactic…what does UK have to do with the US system?
do you honestly think they will be similar? Do you think that in the US people dn’t get denied coverage or treatment even with insurance?
Come on, you can do better than that.
“Come on, you can do better than that.”
Actually, no he can’t. You’re about to see him demonstrate as such.
Also, with a $500 billion cut from Medicare, do you suppose there might be more denials?
A worse fear tactic. those saving will come from modernization of medical recording and weeding out the waste and fraud in the system. try again. actually, don’t it would be a waste of your time.
Speaking of budget cuts and coverage denials. So tell us, li’l clustie, would this be classified as compassionate conservatism, or is dropping coverage for 47,000 poor children just a feature of conservative paradise?
slccr, that’s hysterical that you should bring that up. I live in AZ and the reason for the cuts is that our previous Governor for the last 6 years, left the state in a HUGE financial mess. You may know her: Janet Napolitano. So thanks for reminding me what a failure she is.
slccr,
Don’t worry – your hero Obama and his Banksters say the economy is improving – this means for sure that Arizona won’t have a budget deficit next year and thus will be able to restore the funds.
So your vote is for “conservative paradise,” then, li’l clustie?
How many years have YOU been working for those “Banksters” Mark??
Just a reminder of inefficient bureaucracies mazzy. People get denied all the time, by both private and public carriers, so to find fault with private insurers doing this, is just being disengenuous.
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Incidentally, who is the largest health insurance provider in America?
sadie dear,
could you please cite the times, and entities, that the federal government successfully eliminated billions of dollars in waste and fraud from? I look forward to your response.
If they do pass this giant government takeover (or even if they don’t) why wait until Nov to elect new people to the house and congress… Give them the ‘Gray Davis’ treatment and have a Recall election. Celebrate Nov 2 in June and rebuild the congress with less corrupt people. (I generally view most politicians as corrupt, regardless of party. The trick is to find the least corrupt person running.)
There is no provision in the US Constitution to recall the House or the Senate. More Glenn Beck talking pointzzzzz…….
Congress people work for the people that elected them not the other way around. If they can elect them, they can call them back.
Just an odd question Sadie,
where in the US Constitution is there a provision for;
1. The President to order a private citizen to quit his job… (like a CEO of an auto company)
2. The Federal Government to force people to buy Health Insurance by imposing a fine if they do not buy it.
In the instance of GM I think is wht you are getting at that was a government takeover of a failing private enterprise. The government could require them to do whatever was necessary because they had been “nationalized.”
For part 2 see the Commerce Clause.
sadie,
I suggest you read the following:
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http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2009/12/Why-the-Personal-Mandate-to-Buy-Health-Insurance-Is-Unprecedented-and-Unconstitutional
There is no restriction in the US Constitution on recall of members of Congress.
More forker babbling pointzzzzzzzzzzzz
Seriously, I like the idea, but it would be caught up in court as it is new and would be challenged and have to be heard.
But there is no reason we can’t start a 527 with donations and start to hit every major newspaper and buy some billboards with a Wall of Shame, with photos and names of those who voted for this bill. You know, I like the billboard idea, having them up from June on, or having a 4th of July Freedom Day unveiling of Wall of Shame billboards across the country.
It’s one thing to worry about reelection, or to be relieved that you won’t have to face an opponent who is bringing up your voting record. It’s another to have that process drag out for four months or so, and to be publicly identified for your deeds even if you are not running.
Many Democrats could claim they opposed the Senate bill while allowing it to pass. This would be an unprecedented violation of our democratic norms and procedures, established since the inception of the republic. Article 1, Section 7 of the Constitution stipulates that for any bill to become a law, it must pass both the House of Representatives and the Senate. That is, not be “deemed” to have passed, but actually be voted on with the support of the required majority. The bill must contain the exact same language in both chambers – and in the version signed by the president – to be a legitimate law. This is why the House and Senate have a conference committee to iron out differences of competing versions. This is Civics 101.
The Slaughter Solution is a dagger aimed at the heart of our system of checks and balances. It would enable the Democrats to establish an ominous precedent: The lawmaking process can be rigged to ensure the passage of any legislation without democratic accountability or even a congressional majority. It is the road to a soft tyranny. James Madison must be turning in his grave.
Mr. Obama is imposing a leftist revolution. Since coming to office, he has behaved without any constitutional restraints. The power of the federal government has exploded. He has de facto nationalized key sectors of American life – the big banks, financial institutions, the automakers, large tracts of energy-rich land from Montana to New Mexico. His cap-and-trade proposal, along with a newly empowered Environmental Protection Agency, seeks to impose massive new taxes and regulations upon industry. It is a form of green socialism: Much of the economy would fall under a command-and-control bureaucratic corporatist state. Mr. Obama even wants the government to take over student loans.
Yet his primary goal has always been to gobble up the health care system. The most troubling aspect of the Obamacare debate, however, is not the measure’s sweeping and radical aims – the transformation of one-sixth of the U.S. economy, crippling tax increases, higher premiums, state-sanctioned rationing, longer waiting lines, the erosion of the quality of medical care and the creation of a huge, permanent administrative bureaucracy. Rather, the most alarming aspect is the lengths to which the Democrats are willing to go to achieve their progressive, anti-capitalist agenda.
Obamacare is opposed by nearly two-thirds of the public, more than 60 percent of independents and almost all Republicans and conservatives. It has badly fractured the country, dangerously polarizing it along ideological and racial lines. Even a majority of Democrats in the House are deeply reluctant to support it.
Numerous states – from Idaho to Virginia to Texas – have said they will sue the federal government should Obamacare become law. They will declare themselves exempt from its provisions, tying up the legislation in the courts for years to come.
Mr. Obama is willing to devour his presidency, his party’s congressional majority and – most disturbing – our democratic institutional safeguards to enact it. He is a reckless ideologue who is willing to sacrifice the country’s stability in pursuit of a socialist utopia.
The Slaughter Solution is a poisoned chalice. By drinking from it, the Democrats would not only commit political suicide. They would guarantee that any bill signed by Mr. Obama is illegitimate, illegal and blatantly unconstitutional. It would be worse than a strategic blunder; it would be a crime – a moral crime against the American people and a direct abrogation of the Constitution and our very democracy.
It would open Mr. Obama, as well as key congressional leaders such as Mrs. Pelosi, to impeachment. The Slaughter Solution would replace the rule of law with arbitrary one-party rule. It violates the entire basis of our constitutional government – meeting the threshold of “high crimes and misdemeanors.” If it’s enacted, Republicans should campaign for the November elections not only on repealing Obamacare, but on removing Mr. Obama and his gang of leftist thugs from office.
Oh, ok, I see. So you explained it then. So it is a way that they’ll use to bypass the Constitution.
This is major … this is awful. The more that comes out, it just seems unbelievable. I mean it will your blood boil.
What a bunch of radicals we have running this country.
I suggest you take stock in an antacid company or get a double script for whatever depression meds you take because immigration refom that grants amnesty to 15 million undocumented aliens is coming next and it will pass.
sadie, I suggest you find a saucer of milk and a nice sunny windowsill to curl up on—and quit using this blog as your litter box.
sadie sweetie, i don’t want your rolaids, maalox, or tums…but i sure do like your strawberries.
i’ll take some of them…
I was listening to Dick Morris and he said that Obama will use the reconciliation process to help him pass a slew of other bills, such as Cap-n-Trade etc, etc.
How does that work? Someone help me out here…
Is that getting the opposition to accept the imposition of more legislation against the will of the people and in defiance of the tenth amendment?
Jeremiah,
They could. The official word from Democrat-land is that their House and Senate majorities are secure…talk of Boehner measuring for new drapes in the Speaker’s office is just Republican bluster. Now, it could be that they really believe this – and it also could be that they’re right: you and I don’t get to see the really solid polling the parties do on them selves.
But, on the other hand, if those internal polls are showing a massacre in November and no real way to turn it around (once unpopular, it is very hard to restore popularity), then they might just go for broke and try to shove through as much as they can.
That is exactly what they are doing Mark! I hate to say it, but you have to have a little respect for their Kamikaze attitude. I didn’t think they were true believers, but they must be.
I’ll go with rightlane and say the latter part, Mark. They are passionate about doing evil … about putting man as final arbiter of the outcome of the world.
LOL, they are in for a huge shock. They might be able to get a lot of their wish by forcing a lot of anti-human legislaion through, and starve a good portion of the population, and murder as many unborn children as they can…but if God intervenes, and He will, they will be in for a huge big shocking of a surprise.
uh oh, “Medicare fix would push health care into the red”
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Medicare-fix-would-push-apf-2700343586.html?x=0&.v=2
Why is the CBO having so much trouble evaluating a bill? Is it the fact that the bill keeps changing, but they are voting on it and obamateur speaking about it as if it hasn’t changed?
i got the sniffles, so im off to the ER w no health coverage.
>guess who pays for that expensive visit?
It’s a hundred dollars…..maybe. You can’t afford that? And who in the hell goes to the doctor for the sniffles? Ever hear of Nyquil?
kidding. i have one of those union “cadillac” plans which they wanted to tax until we leaned on em.
” ‘lil clustie?” They do try so hard, don’t they?
The bill may pass. God knows enough bribes have been paid, enough arms have been twisted, enough rules have been bent, that they ought to have a good shot at it.
But I keep wondering what kind of joy can possibly lie in a victory like that. Even if you as a Dem figure what the hell, I’m toast anyway, I might as well sink the nation completely on my way out the door, there has to be an awareness of the uncoming humiliation of having an entire election based on a recounting of the corruption you engaged in, of a promise to undo the damage you have done, of a commitment to have a Hall of Shame with the names of everyone who sunk to these depths to defy the will of the people.
And when your state then has to pass a bill designed solely to circumvent your insanity, it ought to be really great to be you. When your friends and neighbors see you on the street and know that YOU are responsible for the tax hikes, for the billions of dollars in taxpayer money being spent to get constitutional review of your stupidity, when you have gone on the record as being an accomplice in a determination to “transform” the nation—it won’t be comfortable.
You can take the coward’s way out and quit so you don’t have to face the misery of being accused, day in and day out, of your moral cowardice, but it won’t matter—your surrogate will be hit with the same stuff you would have been, it will be your name and your picture on the campaign literature over slogans like “Don’t run the risk of electing another traitor to the American people”.
Anyone who thinks this is going to end with a claim of having passed this bill is delusional. That will just be the beginning.
And the RRL lemmings who are gloating now will continue to be oblivious of the total lack of victory inherent in having to sink to such depths to ram a hated bill down the throats of people who will despise you for it.
“Winning” would be winning over the hearts and minds of the people and bringing them to your way of thinking. This will not, if it happens, be winning. This will be like cheating in an event and then waving your stolen gold medal around as if was an honorable victory.
There is no surprise in seeing certain personas gloat over something that decent people would find shameful. This is pretty much what we expect from such as these.