Is There Glory in War?
Posted by
Mark Noonan
in
Social Issues on
March 27th, 2008 at 01:22pm with
92 responses.
Tags: glory.
Tags: glory.
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Discussed over at Battle Born Politics.
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92 Responses to “Is There Glory in War?”
Caucus of Corruption
Not much on the actual subject – do none of you liberals actually want to discuss the subject? Or is everything to be cast as an anti-Bush polemic?
I suppose it depends on what you want to view as “much on the subject”, Mark. So, quoting the President’s own words is now equivalent to an “anti-Bush polemic”? Interesting!
“Unless, of course, you’re willing to say President George W. Bush is stupid or a liar…” DP
President Bush is dead wrong about Islam. I see you believe President Bush, though. Interesting….
Anyway, watch “Fitna”. Don’t watch “Fitna”. I posted it to give people the opportunity to evaluate it for themselves, because if you haven’t heard about it by now, you will.
I offered President Bush’s words to contrast with your own. You named him as being dead wrong on the subject. That answered my question, thanks.
glory in stopping that?
absolutely Freedom1
absolutely
You agree with President Bush, Diana. Interesting….
Agreed, JS. Agreed.
love the sinner, hate the sin, no?
the best cure for islam is to convert to christianity
seems like the brighterst and best of islam does just that
most muslims in islamic nations never get that choice though
christians are killed for speaking of it
yet the most success islam has in our nation is in the jails
strange how that works, isnt it?
66. js | March 28th, 2008 at 12:22 am
Exactly right, JS.
Mark,
Relative to your comment about the amount posted on the subject of the thread, I would offer Comments 58 as something for your consideration.
Diana Powe, the terrorists must just love ya! Shutting down free speech when they can’t.
Don’t talk to me, Freedom1. Talk to Mark and explain to him how your comment had anything to do with his question, “Is there glory in war?”
Diana,
Oh, I’m not about to try and weed out the off topic comments on this thread…but I had hoped to generate a discussion on war. I don’t think that I even so much as mentioned President Bush in the Battle Born commentary…nor, I think, did I mention Iraq or, indeed, any particular war…
Why We Fight …
————————————————————
Thank God Almighty for our brave men and women in uniform, who seek no glory, but unselfishly sacrifice their time and talent for those who are less fortunate!
–Jeremiah–
Kahn,
I was just asking what your source was. I don’t know if the answer is right or wrong. I do know, however, that Mark has specifically discounted The Military Times for their polling.
Mark,
The current war and the politics surrounding it are on topic if only as an example that war often not glorious.
If this is a post on the glory of war, it is fair we use the Iraq war as evidence.
Also, you are getting hammered over at Sadly, No! for this comment.
Almiranta writes:
“Fighting to defend one’s country is noble.
Fighting to bring or defend freedom is noble.
Fighting protect ones’ rights is noble.”
Hmm, somehow I don’t think many people see what we are doing right now qualifies as accomplishing any of these things.
Your probelm is that you take these as absolute truths. If we fight we are defending our freedoms and rights. This is not always the case.
Almiranta, I am going to blow your mind here. Hold on to something. Sometimes, sometimes the United States can do things that are wrong. I’ll let that concept sink in.
Well I didn’t discount the military times poll and that was my source.
That was a minor point in my post. You really DON’T get it do you?
“What?” Name just war.
what,
I’m supposed to care what people at “Sadly No” are saying?
Anyways…
When a man dies suddenly at a young age (doesn’t matter how – its just that he’s dead long before his expected end), do we say such things as, “ah, that’s terrible – he could have become a ruthless corporate vulture who clawed his way to the top, divorced his wife of 10 years, married a young floozy and piled up money as if his life depended on it”? No, we don’t – we’re saddened when such people die because of what they could have done for others, had they lived. And for those who know the deceased, there is the additional sadness of missing a dear friend/loved one. But the dead man, in any case, is dead – for good or ill, his story is told.
Once upon a time, Rupert Brooke wrote this – a poem I more and more understand as time goes on:
Brooke, a young and fast rising British poet at the start of the First World War, was positively delighted with the prospect of going to war – not because he wanted to kill people; not because he wanted to be killed…but because it gave him, and his generation, a chance to shake off narrow self interest and become absorbed in a common, noble cause where self-sacrifice was the order of the day. When Brooke died during the war (sadly not in battle against the enemy, but of a contracted illness while serving in the military), the loss wasn’t just a miserable, sad loss – a useless sacrifice in war. No, the loss was that the world lost a great poet, and that his friends (who were many) were shorn of his company. But for Brooke, he died nobly in a grand cause – he died, as it were, in glory. To say there is no glory in war is to insult the memory of such as Rupert Brooke, and all those other fine, brave young men who gladly lost their lives in the service of others.
You, and the rest of the lefty commenters, are too narrowly focused and, I regret to add, too lacking in love and happiness to grasp what I am saying. I’m not, by the way, claiming that you will certainly agree with me, but if you allow a little love into your heart, you will understand what I’m saying, which would go a long way towards breaking down the barriers between us. Unfortunately, I know you all too well in such matters – I can feel the seething anger, hatred and resentment you and others bring to this discussion…exemplified by your insistence that the liberation in Iraq is central, and your foolish implication that because you don’t like President Bush and the war, there cannot be glory in the current war.
I’m not talking about Iraq – I’m not speaking of any particular war; I’m answering the question by saying, “yes, there is glory in war”. I’m not saying that war is good; that innocent people being caught in the crossfire is good; that the evil men do when caught up in the heat of battle is good…I’m merely saying that there is glory in war. McCain, a fine man and a grand hero, is wrong on this score – understandably wrong as he got the butt end of barbaric squalor for five years…but because the barbarians siezed him and did horrible things to him, that doesn’t mean there isn’t glory in war…or that the noble actions of brave men and women cannot counter-balance the sordid aspects of war, and raise the event from the horrible to the sublime.
Those who serve are really serving – not the service which most of us do; the cost-free service of civil life. No, they are really serving – they are being our servants which, as Our Lord demonstrated on the night before his crucifixion, means getting down and dirty and doing the tasks that most people won’t do. If one can’t see the nobility in the person who dons a uniform and takes up arms for others, nor the glory in the fact that some of these fine young men and women end up dying in their service…well, then I don’t really know what to say to such a person.
Sometimes, sometimes the United States can do things that are wrong.
What?
Yes, sometimes, like when they choose their Leader … Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton for examples.
George W. Bush on the other hand, was a ‘God send’, the reason he became President wasn’t because of his dad either, as you Libs like to assume most of the time….No, I think the people were tired of the betrayals by Democrats in times past. Not only that, I honestly believe that it was God’s will that it turn out that way, simply for the threat that was looming, became reality, and that we are now very much aware of, at least those of us who acknowledge the threat. It might seem odd that way, I dunno … however, God’s eye is ever watchful of His people, and the only reason He delivers America another day is only because of those people who will take the time to acknowledge Him in their lives, and how critical it is for our sole reliance upon Him and Him alone.
I trust that God has entrusted to George W. Bush what He’s entrusted any one of us sharing our commentary here together, provided we’re willing to acknowledge it, which is to say, that we are called to freedom, and that that freedom is only possible through God’s One and Only Son Jesus Christ who died on the Cross at Calvary to bear our sins and be set free from the bondages of sin thereof … in the same manner, we should be willing to fight to give our all for the freedom of others who are not so fortunate. The correlation would be thusly – Christ willingly gave His life once for others – in the same way, a Soldier dies for others as well. Christ came to destroy the power of sin and give us victory over it, and so, a Soldier goes to destroy the stronghold of the oppressors and give the oppressed the freedom to gain power over the oppressors.
Freedom’s worth, is worth only as much as the individual claiming it – to the one who believes, it’s worth his all for his fellow man.
That’s the glory of it.
If there’s a mistake in the United States in what we’ve done to help the Iraqi people? Then you’ll have to square that with the Iraqi who now enjoys a life of freedom from his/her former situation!
–Jeremiah–
Mark,
I’ve never been in combat in the military sense which is the topic here. However, I have been in hand-to-hand armed struggle while wearing a police uniform and would have considered it a worthy thing had I gone down in the line of duty. In fact, there are those who post here who have expressed animus towards me because of that fact.
However, your analysis here could just as easily apply to every German who died in the trenches on the same day that Rupert Brooke died. Germany was the aggressor. However, it would be the height of naiveness to claim that every young German man who volunteered during the First World War thought he was doing something immoral. Have you ever read All Quiet On The Western Front? Did Hitler see the “glory” of the First World War while he was serving?
Jeremiah,
You’re right, the Iraqis now have the freedom to march in protests and burn American flags:
Diana,
In as much as any particular German soldier fought because he genuinely thought it was the just cause and who subliminated himself to the service of others, then he was doing a noble thing – and thus covered himself in glory. A German soldier jumping on a grenade to save his comrades is just as magnifient as an American soldier doing the same. Of course, it wasn’t exactly like that – German soldiers, even in the First World War, burned villages, slaughtered non-combatants and looted enemy property. They did it under orders, to be sure, but that is no excuse – just as each of them knew full well, from Kaiser to lowest Fritz, that they wouldn’t want their own homes burned, their own families shot, their own property looted, so they knew that they shouldn’t have done that to others, orders or no.
But, still, there could be nobility on the German side, and there was, at times – even in the horrors of the Second World War, when Germans mostly acted like beasts in human form, there was some nobility – the only German soldiers who were unafraid to display their war service were Afrika Corps veterans…because under Rommel in the desert, they did no ignoble things, and they fought hard and well and treated their enemies with chivalrous respect.
On the whole, though, the greater chance for nobility and glory in both World Wars was on the allied side – fighting as they were for liberty put them at a distinct advantage from the get go. But, even so, there were ignoble deeds on the allied side in both wars, as well. War, as has been pointed out often, can be a very nasty business…but my contention is that there is still glory in war. Furthermore, we must acknowledge and joyfully celebrate this glory – we must always pull out of the nettle, adversity, the flower of joy. To not do this is to put all human activity into a negative cesspit.
Scary, very scary. DP serving and protecting?, in armed combat on our streets!
if freedom was such an ignoble cause, then slavery itself would be its opposite
the german based thier valor on racial superiority
the aryan thesis is a well known cult today, yet, both great wars were to put down the beliefs that most of germany fought for
if we base our premise for peace, justice and freedom on a false entitlement (while we uphold/ignore and/or slavery/enslave our fellow man), then those words stand for naught but to inflame a lie to glory instead of rightousness
how did that go…..the greatest among us are selfless servants
Glory: (from Meriam-Webster dictionary)
1 a: praise, honor, or distinction extended by common consent : renown b: worshipful praise, honor, and thanksgiving
The question itself is ambiguous enough stir endless debate (and of course, endless ego battles on this blog) – Is There Glory in War?
Glory should always be accorded to the brave men who fight and die in wars. War itself, however, is always a failure and a tragedy. When societies of men resort to killing one another to settle their differences, humanity has simply failed.
Wars might be just, or necessary – but glorious? Never.
SEW,
There is much that Diana writes that I do not agree with; however her service in uniform is nothing that should be made fun of. We should all be thankful for anyone who upheld their duty while in the service of the public, especially those who are in harms way.
” how did that go…..the greatest among us are selfless servants”
Well said js.
DM, It is not her service I am making fun of. It is her service with her mindset that I wonder about, not make fun of. Scary, very scary. Highly biased, toting a gun. I am thankful for anyone that upholds their duty but wearing a uniform does not guarantee that. That is why psychological evaluations are done–it can be a huge problem. Her psych profile seems quite obvious.
Sew.
So its ok for republicans to be in the Army and be veterans, but its not ok for Democrats to be in the Army and be decorated Veterans?
Give me a break.
“So its ok for republicans to be in the Army and be veterans, but its not ok for Democrats to be in the Army and be decorated Veterans?
Give me a break.” MS
You are delusional. Where did I state that?
No, there is no glory in war.
Oh, “highly biased”. So, according to SEW, who apparently can discern “psych profiles” via reading comments on blogs (remarkable, SEW, what kind of vending machine did you get your PhD in psychology from?) it seems that only conservatives aren’t “highly biased” and “scary”. Now all you have to do is cite any actual examples of my being “highly biased” in the performance of my duties as a Richardson police officer and you’ll have something. You are a stitch, SEW!
Can there be glory in war? Yes. If the caveat is can there be glory in THIS war then the matter is moot. To quote a line from the HBO TV series “The Wire”: “Once you’re in a war, you’re in it. If it’s a lie, then we fight on that lie.” Back in 2003 I posted on the old Yahoo! message boards that this war might actually take four years and cost $500 billion dollars and 1500 American lives. Here we are five years later with 4000+ and counting American dead and the financial cost soaring towards a trillion borrowed from the Chinese with no end in sight.
As President Bush spoke yesterday of victory Muqtada Al Sadr’s Iranian-backed Al Mehdi Army patroled the city of Basra armed with rifles and rocket launchers. We seem to all forget Iraq was supposed to be low-hanging fruit, a place to establish a home base in order to attack the real prize, Iran.
Five years on Iran is taking that fight to American troops through the proxy of the Iranian-born Muqtada Al Sadr, a man who should have been arrested or sent back to Iran years ago. A whole new enemy has been created, and he may well be the most powerful man in Iraq right now. It ensures this war with Iraq–and Iran— will drag on for a good long time to come. Proponents of this war—an aging, increasingly rural-based, and perpetually shrinking minority— offer nothing but more of the same strategy that caused the rise of Muqtada Al Sadr.
All of that means that more American soldiers will be fed into the meat grinder and many more billions of US taxpayer dollars will disappear into a blackhole of unaccountability with no end in sight.
Is that glorious?
It doesn’t really matter does it?
How exactly like Mark, and Jeremiah as well, to drag Jesus Christ into their defense of war. Particularly the war in Iraq, which has put an end to religious freedom there forever, and caused virtually all Christians to flee the new Islamic order enabled by the Bush administration. The few Christians to poor to flee Iraq are truly in a more wretched state than they ever were under Saddam, who for all his wickedness did not tolerate religious persecution and was known to think well of Christians.
There is no doubt that some wars are just and must be fought. But because this is so, does not ennoble war as a concept or lend an iota of glory to the war we are fighting now in Iraq. What we are fighting now is a desperate battle to extract some saving grace from the colossal blunder of the Bush administration’s ignorant, arrogant and unilateral decision to remake the world according to its own whim.
Now we are pouring billions of dollars a week into trying to stop the combustion of the volatile forces Mr. Bush unleashed by removing Saddam Hussein from power. Saddam was bad; what we have now is worse.
And not to be gratuitously slamming Mr. Bush here, Mark, but all this goes to your question of whether there is glory in war. This is just like asking “Is there glory in fire?” Clearly Mr. Bush believed so, just the way an adolescent boy playing with matches glorifies fire.
Now the boy has set fire to a city block; firefighters are dying, not to mention all those people burned to death and out of their homes. And we are not going to hold the delinquent responsible who did this?
The war has cost Mr. Bush nothing personally – it is other people’s children being sent into harm’s way, and even stranger people over there whose security, homes and human bodies have been blown to pieces – first by American shock and awe; now by the insurgent war we have instigated in their midst.
How very like you, Mark the “conservative,” to altogether reject accountablity, to justify your own brand of villainy and by your attempted sophistry to tuck it under the cozy blanket of Christian morality.
“You are a stitch, SEW!” DP
You’re no fun anymore. It used to be so easy to pull your chain.
Since Dennis gives no suggestions on how to help the Iraqi Christians, I thought I would post information about a proposal that might be a viable solution.
The proposal is to create an autonomous region in northern Iraq called the Nineveh Plains where Christians and other persecuted minorities can practice their faith, speak and teach their language, and work without fear of persecution.
The Nineveh Plains is the ancestral homeland of Assyrian Christians – the largest Christian group in Iraq – and is the area where thousands of Christians from the cities have resettled to escape persecution.
Although, Christians and other persecuted minorities might face the same difficulties Israel faces today, it sounds like a good step in the right direction.
Anyone?
Deleted – off topic.
Really? I thought that was what blogs were for … to debate issues, to talk about possible solutions, etc. Any comment on the proposal or do you just want to beatch and moan?
Well, I’m aware that various people with far more knowledge than I have proposed redrawing the map of the Middle East. Other than that, I haven’t enough knowledge to say.
Kimberly, it is doubtful Christians in Iraq could face the same difficulties as Israel, whose problems arise from their aggressive ethnic cleansing of nearly a million indigenous people – but that is quite another subject.
I am in favor finding a home for Iraqi Christians, but Western powers have been trying to impose “solutions” on Iraq for a very long time, with one blunder following another. The scenario you suggest is news to me; it is difficult to know whether it is merely another pretext for a longer occupation.
It also carries with it echoes of past ethnic cleansings with forced relocations, refugee camps, dismal living conditions and a permanent underclass. To create such a “solution” would be entirely consistent with the Bush admin’s history of crisis management.
Honor, commitment, sacrifice, duty, loyalty…
Kahn…are these attributes only applicable to those who fight wars?
I see it every day in my family life, and in the struggle of myself and others to end the practice of the methods you, and others like you, would employ.