The Catholic View on Torture
June 28th, 2008 at 09:33am Mark Noonan
Can be read here, Torture is a Moral Issue, A Catholic Study Guide (PDF). While I have not considered the document in its entirety, nor spent any long time in contemplation of what it teaches, I’d like to put out a few observations of my own.
In what will surely please the critics of the Bush Adminisration, the document says we must stop using euphemisms in our discussion - no more “enhanced interrorogation” when we really mean something quite harsh. This will please the left - but only up to such time as they actually start thinking about it and realise that this means we’ll also have to stop using “pro-choice” as a euphemism to cover up “pro-abortion”. This is an important thing to keep in mind, because at bottom the issue of torture is a life issue, and thus intrinsic to the whole debate on whether or not human beings have an inherent dignity which must be respected at all times, no matter what the particular human being has done. If we have an inherent dignity then we can’t torture - but we also can’t kill the unborn or, indeed, allow such things as the degradation of pornography to continue unabated (side note: when you start getting into Catholic teaching, dear readers, you’re going to get a lot of things like this: “narrowly focused” is not something which applies to Catholic teaching…the Church isn’t universal for nothin’, ya know?). As a very strong pro-lifer, I have to put myself down, then, as opposed to torture - and this would include the sort of torture which might be used to elicit information on a bomb set to go off.
As we carry on this war against a cruel and wicked foe, we must always conduct ourselves as best we can. Realising that we are fallible humans and, especially, that it is a tricky business to second-guess a soldier in the field, we still must ever strive for the highest standards possible in our conduct. But there are some things to keep in mind:
Irregular combatants are not covered by the Genevea Convention - unless an armed enemy is part of a clearly and immediately identifiable military organization, such a person is liable for a quick court martial and swift execution, all fully in accordance with the Convention. Given this, the fact that we take prisoners at all - and then almost invariably treat them very well while in captivity - is already a sign of our respect for the inherent dignity of those human beings who have chosen terrorism as their means to an end.
While a regular soldier can only be required to state his name, rank and serial number if captured and a civilian law enforcement official is carefully bound by the provisions of the Constitution and long-held US law, an irregular soldier doesn’t really even have a rank or serial number to provide, and to provide lawyers and the full panalopy of US law to captured terrorists is actually unworkable if our goal is to eliminate the terrorist threat. A captures enemy combatant is at our mercy, in a very literal sense.
A captured enemy is still a human and still has an absolute and non-negotiable right to insist that we treat him with the dignity inherent to man and endowed by God - on the other hand, a captured terrorist must not be given a right to remain silent. Once captured, they must tell us all we need to know, or we must in some way compel them to do so. And here we get into that grey area - not really covered in the linked document - of just what is torture. I cannot hold that an act by the interrogator which does no physical harm can be considered torture. Feeling bad about it afterwards isn’t good enough - there has to be a bruise, a broken bone…something, anything to indicate that someone applied brute force to the body of the terrorist. Keeping a terrorist up all night would make him quite exhausted, but it doesn’t actually rise to the level of torture.
The balancing act is to figure out how far we can go, and then work out systems to ensure that we never go any further. Most Democrats are worse than fools in their demands for closure of Gitmo based on flimsy evidence of torture. In the end, we need a prison like Gitmo and we need the ability to ensure that the terrorists give us all the information we require. Providing a statute for the military to work from would be the best idea, but one step at a time - and that first step must be in keeping Gitmo open, and rather unpleasant to be in. But however harsh we might make it and however painful (in a mental sense) interrogations might prove, the dignity of the people incarcerated must be maintained, even for those who accord us no dignity at all.
Entry Filed under: Religion, Social Issues, War on Terror
32 Comments
1. Ali | June 28th, 2008 at 9:47 am
U.S. Must Embrace Muslim Faith
They own most of the worlds oil and they are the fastest growing religious segment. We need to appease this group through accommodation & understanding to ensure peace in our time. Surely they will eventually come around and take care of the radical elements within their own ranks.
Vote Obama!
2. Sarah Bloch | June 28th, 2008 at 9:52 am
You seem to be suffering from the same disease as Rudy Giuliani. You remember him right? America’s mayor who was to be the front runner because 9/11 and Iraq were the most important issues to the American people.
The man could not complete a sentence without “9/11″ being in it. And now you have a west coast variation that makes it impossible for you to post an article with the word abortion in it. I don’t care if right wing religious people think pro choice is a euphemism. So in the case of rape or incest that doesn’t make you pro life it makes you “pro-forcing a woman to live with the product of a sexual attack growing in her womb.” If she commits suicide then that makes you pro-suicide and pro-murder too then?
The whole abortion issue makes me wonder Noonan but of course your private life is private. From this point on mine isn’t I had two in my lifetime one as a teen that was too young even in those days when I lived to have a child at 13 when it was common for women of that age to be married and again at 27 as the product of a rape. You can feel free to call me a liberal baby killer but I made my choices and I stand by them and I don’t feel any sort of racial or religious remorse because they were decisions I had to make . They cost me my family and many of my friends and the last even cost me my marriage but to this day and many, many days have passed since then I still honor the midwife who was there both time with skill and attention in an age when abortion wasn’t legal because of pious men who would panic if confronted with a product of their own infidelity and could not find a toilet down which to flush their own bloody indiscretions.
A blind man can see that torture is wrong. Even America as a going concern isn’t worth giving up its ideals and torture isn’t one of those ideals
3. neocon | June 28th, 2008 at 10:19 am
Sarah,
There is not a conservative in this land that would have denied you an abortion following the rape, of which I am sorry to hear. Also, if in fact you had an abortion at 13, I can only muse on where your parents were, and what anxious couple missed out on adopting a wonderful little baby.
Your ill informed perception of Christian Conservatives is only matched by your penchant to use talking points. It’s hard to believe how little thise current crop of liberals know about their neighbors, choosing instead to buy into the fearful rhetoric their handlers feed them.
If you are so opposed to torture, I will assume then that you are vociferously against late term abortions.
Ali,
You are obviously young and naive, hence the support for Obama. But I am curious as to how the Muslim world will all of sudden reverse history and effectively deal with the radical elements within their ranks as you so assert. Please tell us how this transformation will magically appear under Obamas stewardship.
have a nice day
peace, neocon
4. Sarah Bloch | June 28th, 2008 at 10:35 am
3. neocon | June 28th, 2008 at 10:19 am
Thank you for your kind words. I do have to disagree that there are some conservatives that would have denied me an abortion in both cases on religious grounds. Lucky for me and thousands of other women like me few of them are judges, physicians or governors. I also don;t think it’s talking point or rhetoric when Noonan insists on injecting his hot button issue into every subject.
Late term abortion? Depends on the circumstance.
5. neocon | June 28th, 2008 at 10:42 am
Sarah,
Again, your presumption of conservatives is unfounded. Many, like me, are against abortion as a rule, but would never deny the woman that choice in the event of rape or incest.
Late term abortions are the most barbaric act any society could employ, far worse then any aggressive interrogation techniques.
peace, neocon
6. Rana Quijotesca | June 28th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
You know… if you beat someone with a sac of oranges, it doesn’t leave a bruise… would that be torture?
7. neocon | June 28th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
You know….if you read too many liberal comments that assault common sense….would that be torture?
peace, neocon
8. Mark Noonan | June 28th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Rana,
How would you know that if you haven’t, yourself, beaten someone with a sack of oranges?
Anyways - any physical violence directed against a defenseless indvidual denies him his human dignity.
9. The New Conservative | June 28th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
Interesting column.
http://thenewconservatives.blogspot.com/
10. Mark Noonan | June 28th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
Sarah,
Not just pious men, but pious women, too - the strongest voices against abortion are those of women, especially those who were bamboozled - like you - into having an abortion, and then spent many years trying to justify their wrong decision. The child was not responsible for his father’s crime. You choose death, and I’m sorry for you - instead of defending a practice which kills millions, you could instead be a person who suffered and then out of that suffering provided for another one of the most pure acts of self donation possible in a human being. Simple evil was done - and you could have provided a complex good in response. You choose to do a second simple evil.
You might - out of lingering guilt - project upon me some of the feelings you have about what you did…and, truth be told, there is a guilt upon my soul here, but not as you might imagine (or, actually, hope because if I were situated as you desire, it would allow you another bit of self-justification). But the fact of the matter is that I concentrate heavily on this issue because it is the most crucial we face of our time - if we cannot adhere to the self-evident truth that we are created by God and endowed by Him with unalienable dignity then the whole structure of our civilization is false and anyone may do whatever one pleases - Auschwitz becomes just a thing, rather than a monstrous crime…as abortion is just a thing, or euthansia is just a thing in the minds of some people. You are either valuable as yourself, Sarah, or you are only worth what others can make of you. I hold you to be priceless - what price do you put on me?
You can’t pick and choose which parts of human dignity you will respect - to say to the man who just blew up a school, “I will respect your dignity” but to the innocent, unborn child “you have no dignity”. Dignity is not subject to partial dimunation - either humans have dignity or they haven’t. There is your real choice, Sarah - and in the end, the only real choice you’ll ever make.
11. Sarah Bloch | June 28th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
10. Mark Noonan | June 28th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
That is one beautiful argument. You missed your calling you should have been a criminal defense lawyer. I get what you are saying but I don’t feel the least bit guilty after all these years and if I was going to be I think it would have hirt me some holiday or the first time I saw a pregnant woman or an infant but it never did and I went on to have a full life and still do.
You will see thousands of others slaughtered and millions displaced for a war that had no real purpose save for politics and you and i both know the truth of that but this issue is yours. You don’t care about Bush or Iraq or his war but you would admit that what his administration has done is wrong if abortion ended all over the world. It would be worth it to your Soul to tell the truth then I can feel it in your words and for that Mark Noonan I respect you. Being honest about this as I have been with you about my experience is the essence of what America can be and I think will be under the leadership of Barack Obama.
Will think on what you have said.
Thank you.
12. neocon | June 28th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
“You will see thousands of others slaughtered and millions displaced for a war that had no real purpose save for politics….” - Sarah
Is that what you honestly think? That America/Bush initiated this battle for political reasons?
Do you believe that if we withdraw, this conflict will end?
peace, neocon
13. Mark Noonan | June 28th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
Sarah,
If you really don’t feel guilt, then I’m even more sorry for you than I was before…but I suspect the truth may be otherwise.
14. bagni | June 28th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
marknation
after reading the previous planetary posts
the alienistas feel just as sorry for you as you do for sarah
wish you’d get off your religious high horse once in a while
When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad. That’s my religion.
-Abraham Lincoln, 16th president of the U.S. (1809-1865)
15. FmrMarine | June 28th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
sarah;
>>>. I don’t feel the least bit guilty after all these years >>>
It certain ally explains why you post from “HELLS” leading newspaper which is a filthy rag full of porno, anti Christian hate, and pushes the homosexual agenda.
16. Mark Noonan | June 28th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
bagni,
It was Sarah who wanted to bring it into a discussion of her particular circumstances - the invariable rule: If you don’t want to know my opinion on your life, don’t ask me for it. I won’t barge in and say, supposing I had heard of Sarah’s issues from a third party, what to do or what she might have done better - its none of my business, until its brought up by the principals concerned.
As for my religous high horse - I quoted no scripture, I made no judgements on Sara. For all I know, she’s closer to God than I am…but I must speak the truth, and on the issue of the conflict between the Culture of Life and the Culture of Death, firmness is required from those who defend life.
17. pelirrojo | June 28th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
neocon, There is not a conservative in this land that would have denied you an abortion following the rape
sarah’s right, there are many christians who would oppose abortion in any case (and in some cases would want sarah executed….eg jerry), there have been so many cases where a christian has refused to sell someone the morning after pill in the event of rape, why would these people be willing to accept abortion for rape?
“Also, if in fact you had an abortion at 13, I can only muse on where your parents were, and what anxious couple missed out on adopting a wonderful little baby.”
Chances are this kid would have never been adopted, there are so many unadopted kids out there, what makes you think this one would have been?
18. What? | June 29th, 2008 at 3:15 am
Noonan writes,
“If you really don’t feel guilt, then I’m even more sorry for you than I was before…but I suspect the truth may be otherwise.”
Mark, why can’t you accept that the world doesn’t fit squarely with your views?
Some people feel guilty while others do not. I’m fine with you trying to make people feel guilty but realize that is what you are trying to do. You are not uncovering some hidden, preexisting guilt.
Then there is this:
“I concentrate heavily on this issue because it is the most crucial we face of our time - if we cannot adhere to the self-evident truth that we are created by God and endowed by Him with unalienable dignity then the whole structure of our civilization is false and anyone may do whatever one pleases - Auschwitz becomes just a thing, rather than a monstrous crime…as abortion is just a thing, or euthansia is just a thing in the minds of some people. You are either valuable as yourself, Sarah, or you are only worth what others can make of you. I hold you to be priceless - what price do you put on me?”
Your first mistake is concluding it is self-evident humans are a creation of your God. If this were the case the whole world would follow your view and believe what you do.
Next up: “unalienable dignity then the whole structure of our civilization is false and anyone may do whatever one pleases.”
Mark, what does this even mean? Your attempt at eloquence has produced vague results. Societies throughout time have had both abortion and euthanasia. Were these society’s structures false? (Whatever that means)
The next problem is your comparison (a tired one) of abortion to the Nazi genocide. The difference between the two is, of course, the motives that produce them.
While the Nazi genocide was driven by a hatred and a belief in the inferiority of the Jews; abortions are driven by an understanding of the mother that she is incapable of caring for the child. The decision is not driven by hatred but by compassion, fear, and weakness and numerous other emotions and motives personal to each woman who has an abortion.
The larger part of the problem is that you realize this but try to have it both ways. In one breath you say that these mothers’ decisions to obtain an abortions were difficult and complicated. In the next breath you lament how abortion is a sign of the low value our society places on life. You even go so far as saying we are well on our way to being Nazis.
So which is it, MarK? Is the woman a Nazi; or is she the tortured soul who made a difficult (but in your mind wrong) decision?
Your talk of inalienable diginity rings hollow when you talk of your adversity to euthanasia. It is certainly not “just a thing.” If you believe this then you have missed the whole point of why people want to enact euthanasia laws. Those who wish to enact such law believe we are providing a person with the dignity to die and allowing them to avoid suffering. Life is not always priceless, Mark.
I know where you are coming from. Everything I say to you just doesn’t compute and sounds crazy. It sounds crazy because you are the type of guy who believes “it self-evident . . . we are created by God.” We all know you live in absolute truth land. However, take a vacation and come back to the real world. Realize there are two sides to every coin and many shades of truth.
I know the idea of multiple truths is both frightening and maddening to someone like yourself who has found organized religion. It can also be enlightening.
19. Plantation Owner | June 29th, 2008 at 6:42 am
Take it for what it’s worth…..
From the Daily Pitchfork - HOW TO SPEAK TO A ONE ISSUE CONSERVATIVE; 14 MELNAR 2 AS:
[Ed. Note: Sarah Bloch, was born in Duchess County, New York in 1844. At the age of 13 she ran away from home after disovering she was pregnant and her mother told her that because she had been in sin a boy she was going to Hell. Sarah was eventually found on the side of the road near what is now West Milford, Pennsylvania by Gretchen Beecher a midwife and her husband Doctor Robert Beecher. Sarah Bloch reveals personal details about her life below in a response to Mark Noonan's BlogsforVictory post where the Catholic Church comes out against all forms of torture. The USCCB report on torture can be read here. What she has left out is that she was a soldier in the Union army and at the ripe old age of 17 fought at Gettysburg. She was wounded twice and finshed her time in army as a nurse in Vicksburg, MS. An advocate for the rights of all citizens of the Hellac Empire Ms. Bloch remains one of the great voices for freedom and liberty in America well over 100 Terran years after her death.--Editor-in-Chief.]
From her post in this thread #2:
“The whole abortion issue makes me wonder Noonan but of course your private life is private. From this point on mine isn’t I had two in my lifetime one as a teen that was too young even in those days when I lived to have a child at 13 when it was common for women of that age to be married and again at 27 as the product of a rape. You can feel free to call me a liberal baby killer but I made my choices and I stand by them and I don’t feel any sort of racial or religious remorse because they were decisions I had to make . They cost me my family and many of my friends and the last even cost me my marriage but to this day and many, many days have passed since then I still honor the midwife who was there both time with skill and attention in an age when abortion wasn’t legal because of pious men who would panic if confronted with a product of their own infidelity and could not find a toilet down which to flush their own bloody indiscretions.”
Are these people for real? Can we honestly trust what they say as truth?
20. Danish Artist | June 29th, 2008 at 6:51 am
PO, you’re kidding right?
You mean the sob story “Sarah” gave was complete BS!?!
If these Brimstone losers have not been banned they should be. They are not here to debate but to disrupt and as any person who would disrupt a debate, they would be kindly escorted out.
The Brimstone is a trash rag that they are trying to pass of as “legitimate journalism”. I have never seen “jounalism” so one sided and full of religious hatred. Yellow journalism is more like it. By “yellow”, it would only be fitting for the bottom of a puppy crate.
21. Mark Noonan is A SCUMBAG | June 29th, 2008 at 6:58 am
Noonan, you are a fat triple-chinned blubbery piece of human waste. Go (expletive deleted) yourself you sanctimonious creep.
22. neocon | June 29th, 2008 at 10:03 am
Mark,
Please don’t delete post #21. I think it clearly reveals the hate that is the pitchfork.
The pitchfork is nothing more than a narcissistic venue for the confused and indoctrinated. It is a site not intended for debate, but for juvenile monologues designed to perpetuate the ignorance they all wallow in.
Sarah, Diane and Frederick lead the chorus of hate and idiocy and I frequent there from time to time if only to get a good laugh.
have a nice day
peace, neocon
23. Mark Noonan | June 29th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Triple chinned? I mean, I know I’ve put on a few pounds lately, but I’m still running about 170…
24. Mark Noonan | June 29th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Plantation,
Astounding.
25. Mark Noonan | June 29th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
pel,
Newborns adopt out easily - the problem adoptions are older children or children with some serious illness…but even these cases, there are willing parents.
26. Mark Noonan | June 29th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
What,
You may, if you wish, deny your special creation by God, but if you do then you have no rights I am bound to respect - only fear or superior force would keep me from enslaving you or killing you as met my best advantage. Because I am created by God in his divine image, you must respect my integrity as a human being and no matter how much force you have at your disposal, you have no right to enslave or kill me.
See how it works?
Now that we’ve demonstrated that even if God didn’t exist, it would be necessary for us to invent him for our own safety if nothing else (and, therefor, it is a self-evident truth)…
I’m discussing our society - our Judeo-Christian society which placed reason at a high place in affairs; which imposed a view of humanity where individuals are respected…which, in short, made what is worth living for here in our civilization…if we lose this core Judeo-Christian belief, then we’re done for…a civilizaiton there will be, but you won’t like it…
27. What? | June 30th, 2008 at 12:48 am
Mark writes,
“See how it works?”
No, I don’t.
Are you saying the only reason you don’t kill people is because you believe in God?
Let’s hope your faith never disappoints you, Mark. Hopefully I will be long distance away.
Also, this is just bizarre:
“Now that we’ve demonstrated that even if God didn’t exist, it would be necessary for us to invent him for our own safety if nothing else (and, therefor, it is a self-evident truth)…”
So are you saying that a self evident truth can be false? I think what you mean is that we pretend it to be true. The word your looking for is “delusion.”
Of course, what is laughable about your conclusion is that the Judeo-Christian society you seem to think is so great did enslave a whole race of people and used the Bible to justify it. We also drop two atomic bombs on civilian populations and still try to say it was a good idea.
Also, having lived in non-Judeo Christian nations, I can say they are not as apocalyptic as you make them sound. Get out of of your bunker, Mark. See the world.
28. Mark Noonan | June 30th, 2008 at 1:32 am
what,
Not at all - I’m set free by the truth, and thus you have no worries from me on that…but if you are not a unique creation of God with a purpose and an inherent dignity, then you are just a biological accident who has no claim on anyone if keeping your alive - or allowing you to be free - is not expedient for whomever has more force at his disposal.
29. What? | June 30th, 2008 at 1:44 am
Mark,
That comment was just incoherant. Read what you wrote. How is anyone other than yourself suppose to make sense of it?
C’mon, lets focus on quality over quantity here.
30. Danish Artist | June 30th, 2008 at 6:30 am
Say What?
If you do not understand, then you are either dense or have no hope in your life.
Were you put here by God for a purpose?
Or….
Were you a mere biological accident, who just simply exists, with no foundation of morals, which are based on any religious belief from way back?
It’s simple.
31. Sadly, No! » From M&hellip | July 1st, 2008 at 1:19 am
[...] But as you can see, we just thought of another one. Let’s see what he’s up to lately. Failure June 28th, 2008 at 09:33am Mark [...]
32. What? | July 1st, 2008 at 1:19 am
Danish,
So those are my only two choices? That seems very limited.
Perhaps there is a god who put us all on the planet for a laugh? Maybe we are a divine joke meant to entertain this entity who created us. Perhaps that is why we are so cruel to each other. Perhaps he is laughing right now at how you resort to cheap insults instead of arguments.
Also, I don’t think you understand what Mark is trying to say. I think he is saying that people who don’t believe in his God are inherantly immoral. Also, Mark needs to work on his grammar.