Fearing God is the Root of Wisdom…
July 10th, 2008 at 02:10pm Mark Noonan
…but screaming like a frightened, little girl at the mention of God is the root of, well, groups like Americans United for Separation of Church and State:
The state of South Carolina faces a federal lawsuit seeking to block its plans to issue license plates which feature a bright-yellow Christian cross on a multicolored stained glass window and the words “I Believe.”
The bill permitting the license plates passed the state legislature unanimously, while South Carolina governor Mark Sanford allowed the bill to become law without his signature, CNN reports.
A similar design had been considered in Florida but was rejected because of First Amendment concerns.
“I think it allows people of faith to profess that they believe in a higher calling, they believe in God,” said South Carolina Lt. Governor Andre Bauer, who has offered to personally pay a $4,000 deposit required for the state’s Department of Motor Vehicles to begin production of the plates.
The Rev. Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, is leading the opposition to the law. He claims Bauer’s involvement “more deeply confirms this is a government-sponsored program.”
“I don’t believe that these license plates will ever be on any car in South Carolina, because I think our constitutional claim is so strong,” Lynn said, according to CNN.
Individuals can ask the DMV to print plates for other faiths, for a $4,000 fee, but the request is allegedly subject to significant limits and rules not imposed for the Christian plate. Other tags could feature a religious symbol, but no words would be allowed.
“The state has made believers of non-Christian faiths feel that they are second-class citizens,” Lynn continued. “Under our Constitution, that’s impermissible.”
Andre Bauer responded by arguing that the provision of Christian plates was an issue of freedom of speech.
To me, its not so much a freedom of speech issue - though it is that - as its a freedom to not have presumptuous busy-bodies sticking their nose in where it doesn’t belong. Its a license plate, for crying out loud - if you don’t want a cross on yours, then don’t buy one. Do the people of Americans United really think that someone having a plate with a cross on it makes us all less free? Lynn claims to be a reverend - isn’t there something he could do with his time more useful to the nation and more in accordance with the convictions he claims? How many meals for the homeless could be bought with the legal fees this case will generate? And if the plates are nixed, will everyone really feel freer?
We Christians are not supposed to hate - except, of course, a healthy hatred for Hell and all its works…and I’m beginning to perceive the demonic in the absurd lengths some people go to excise all mention of God from the public square. This is just stupid, stupid, stupid - in a rational world Lynn’s case would be laughed out of court and a really wise judge would slap a fine on Lynn’s group for wasting the court’s time. Enough is enough, already.
Entry Filed under: General Government, Justice System, Popular Culture
91 Comments
1. Magnum Serpentine | July 10th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
I am all for the license plate, as long as all the other religions are allowed to have their plate as well. But then I remember that Fundamentalist Reconstructionist screamed when the pro choice pro womens rights people wanted a license plate after the anti-abortion groups got one. The State of Tennessee voted against the pro choice people and voted for the anti-choice people. thats just wrong. If South Carolina says the fundamentalist can have a plate, but others like Christians, Wiccans etc can’t have a plate then thats discrimination.
2. counterpundit | July 10th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
I want my “I Believe” plate, subsidized by your tax dollars, with a pentagram. Hail Satan!
My sister wants one with the Flying Spaghetti Monster, sauce be upon him. rAmen!
So, Mark, although I surmise that you are only pretending to support this cause in your neverending role as Pundit Extraordinaire, do you (supposedly) think we should be allowed our Satan and FSM plates? If not, why not?
If not, is it because this is actually a Christian theocracy, in your judgment? Or is it because, in your judgment, any rational person would see that it is obvious that, while Jonah living for 3 days inside the stomach of a whale is clearly a true story as the Bible says, it would be ridiculous to believe that spaghetti can fly?
Hey, put as many Jesus fish on your car as you want. Just don’t expect me to smile while you spend my tax dollars on your “God” while denying me the right to spend yours on mine.
3. CanadianObserver | July 10th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
2. counterpundit | July 10th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
———————————–
Yes, tit for tat. Your license plate shows your beliefs; your fellow citizen shows what he or she believes. Sounds more than reasonable and everyone gets equal treatment.
4. amused observer | July 10th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with people having Christian license plates. But there is obviously something wrong with placing design restrictions on the license plates for other faiths that don’t exist for the Christian one. That is a clear preference for one faith over another. Muslims should be able to have plates with a crescent moon and “allah akbar” just like Christians should be able to have plates with a cross and “I believe”.
5. Fredrick Schwartz | July 10th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
This is pretty dumb. It’s just a license plate people and I would think AUSCS would have better things to do.
6. Rana Quijotesca | July 10th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
Personally I don’t think that the state should be giving out religious-themed paraphernalia–something about some amendment somewhere implying that the government shouldn’t subsidize religious practice… But, seeing as how religious themed plates are out there, I think that it would only be acceptable if all religions were given the same treatment in the area. If non-christians have to pay $4000, then christians should have to pay $4000; if non-christians can’t have text on their plates, then neither should christians. It’s all about equality…
7. FmrMarine | July 10th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
Mark
I see all the usual atheist NUTCASES showed up en mass as usual for this one.
8. CanadianObserver | July 10th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
I see all the usual atheist NUTCASES showed up en mass as usual for this one
7. FmrMarine | July 10th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
———————————
You find ‘equal under the law’ a NUTTY concept, do you, FmrMarine?
Would you be so kind as to elaborate?
9. Dennis | July 10th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
“Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven” Matthew 6:1.
It should go without saying you also don’t use state venues or funding to wave your religion in others’ faces.
10. FmrMarine | July 10th, 2008 at 6:58 pm
co
The USA and OUR laws are NONE of your freeking kanadian business ….P!$$ OFF frog!
11. Free_From_Religion | July 10th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
There are plenty of places to purchase trinkets with which to adorn your car and advertise your belief in just one of the many ancient pagan beliefs, the Christ myth the most well known.
Tax dollars should not go toward any such silly religions.
12. Eric T | July 10th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
You guys complain about tax dollars going towards religious items, how do you feel about tax dollars going toward government subsidized co-op housing, or food stamps, and welfare…
How do you feel about real hard work while some slouch ass alcoholics and drug fiends tear it up and party hard while the government take hundreds out of your check, to give to them, so they do have to work.
A license plate cost what??? a few cents, well now a days, it has to be imported from China or Mexico so the shipping costs probably make it cost more.
13. Eric T | July 10th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
or
you don’t like tax dollars spent on a religious item, but it is OK to create loopholes and tax breaks for minority or immigrant business owners, that give them an advantage over the average American citizen that wants to take a chance and try and run a business?
14. FmrMarine | July 10th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
lm
>>>>How Christian of you.
Really…….>>>
AMEN !
15. FmrMarine | July 10th, 2008 at 8:07 pm
LM
>>>>How Christian of you.
Really…….>>>
actually……..
“Believers must not commune with unbelievers. What fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness, light with darkness, believers with infidels?”
2 Corinthians 6:14-15
2 John 1 10-11
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Bingo = ZERO tolerance, ever heard of that?
16. 42 | July 10th, 2008 at 8:07 pm
how pathetic are you pseudo-Christians (since you are all typing a way and not doing charity work right now I would never consider you True Christians) that you need to advertise your personal relationship with God?…our only hope is that the true Christians would one day stand up and take back their religion from you Jesus freaks…but they won’t…why?…because they are True Christians, busy with doing God’s work, not spending time fighting to put some engraven image in their license plate
pathetic
17. FmrMarine | July 10th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
42 read 12
18. 42 | July 10th, 2008 at 8:11 pm
Deleted - off topic.
19. FmrMarine | July 10th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
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20. 42 | July 10th, 2008 at 8:22 pm
Deleted - off topic.
21. FmrMarine | July 10th, 2008 at 8:26 pm
42 = vicodin n cocoa = BANNED POSTER!
here is your final answer ranger-
“Believers must not commune with unbelievers. What fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness, light with darkness, believers with infidels?”
2 Corinthians 6:14-15
2 John 1 10-11
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Bingo = ZERO tolerance, ever heard of that?
22. Jonathan | July 10th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
Deleted - off topic.
23. 42 | July 10th, 2008 at 8:37 pm
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24. Jeremiah | July 10th, 2008 at 9:32 pm
Everyone should want to support the loving and peaceful ways of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in all they do, from the most personal to the highest Office in the Land!!
But they won’t, because Atheist hatemongers have succeeded at forcing their intolerance of all things Christianity into our government.
Some say, “Offend”? How does the love of Jesus Christ offend anyone? Still yet, why should you be offended?
The Islamists aren’t afraid to offend…and could care less how they do it either. Kick and stab, cut heads off, suicide bombs.
The difference is clear….As Christians we don’t tolerate evil actions…but Islamists use terrorism as intolerance of peace and love.
A very different picture from what Jesus taught, eh? You better believe it.
Which would you rather live under, liberals? Someone sharing the hope of Christ with you outside the park, or a Muslim terrorist hacking away at your chest?
I think it’s time we stop being afraid of the ACLU and Americans United for Separation of Church and State and start fearing God Our Creator, or else Islam will be at our front door one day.
But I know people won’t, so it’s comin’!!!
25. Aitch | July 11th, 2008 at 12:48 am
I Believe the law will be struck down.
26. JustAnotherTaxpayer | July 11th, 2008 at 1:45 am
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27. Jeremiah | July 11th, 2008 at 2:14 am
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28. What? | July 11th, 2008 at 2:15 am
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29. Jeremiah | July 11th, 2008 at 2:33 am
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30. Jeremiah | July 11th, 2008 at 2:58 am
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31. Pain | July 11th, 2008 at 5:24 am
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32. kmg | July 11th, 2008 at 8:53 am
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33. Pain | July 11th, 2008 at 9:28 am
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34. FreeTibetNow | July 11th, 2008 at 9:48 am
Seriously, these are license plates were talking about. If I can get one with Buddha, I will support the RIGHT for fellow SC citizens to have their Christian themed plate. I agree with a previous poster though, if you have to plaster your car with religious symbolism and sayings to prove your faith something is wrong. Actions speak louder than license plates…..
35. Gabrielle Deroscheres | July 11th, 2008 at 10:47 am
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36. Eric T | July 11th, 2008 at 10:47 am
Pain-
#35 you rate everyones comment, that is some fuzzy math. I have been to your website, Your posts have some praises to “Shia” Lord of Hell. If you worship Lucifer and want a plate with an upside down cross, you should be able to get one just like the people that want the regular cross. At some point in peoples life, they realize they are mortals and they are going to die, many look to religion to answer questions of where we go when we have to die. If someone wants to pay extra for a special license plate that has a religious symbol on it, it is more money for the state, and they get a license plate they like. What is so bad about that?
37. Jeremiah | July 11th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Deleted - off topic.
38. Jeremiah | July 11th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
Instead of other countries coming here, they should start imitating our way of life and then they wouldn’t have to worry about being oppressed.
39. Republican minds want to know. | July 11th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
This new blogger has an interesting way of looking at things.
40. Republican minds want to know. | July 11th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
http://www.nevadapundit.com
guess that would help
41. Some Assembly Required | July 11th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
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42. Pain | July 11th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
40. Eric T | July 11th, 2008 at 10:47 am
“#35 you rate everyones [sic] comment, that is some fuzzy math. I have been to your website, Your posts have some praises to “Shia”[sic] Lord of Hell.”
You are blinded by what you have been taught as a child. But that is not your fault or the fault of your parents. It is the fault of the men who profit even now from your ignorance while telling you that their way is the only way. Well as We know all roads lead to Hell.
We worship only the myriad ways of the Fates and the Truth that is in Justice for those in the Afterlife all else are the inaccurate histories perpetuated through Human existence for the purpose of causing fear in your hearts and doubt about Love in your minds.
We are the Lord High Justice of the Imperial Hellac Court of Acts and Merits and are an Imperial Peer by marriage. We, Ourselves of the Collective are a Shi’a in every sense of the word as it can only be loosely translated into English as a “faithful follower of truth.”
There is no place where We refer to Ourselves as a “Shi’a Lord of Hell” but technically using your words they do ring true! this is much like the “Lord Privy Seal” joke Edward Heath is so fond of telling, being that he was neither lord, nor privy, nor seal.
You offer an understanding that your death is always a moment away yet you still speak with the iron words of a man blinded by his own desire to dominate and control because your Deity is greater than all others, and your nation state too is all powerful and your tribe can subjugate others. This trinity is a trinity of urine offered in a desert. We offer water and Love instead.
43. js | July 11th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
1st Amendment;
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
“no law”….”prohibiting the free exercise thereof;”
seems like they missed something pretty basic here….
it does not exclude the right of government employee’s to perform thier duties in accordance with thier religious beliefs…its states “no law”…period…no law outlawing a cross on a license plate….because it prohibits the free excercise of religion…no law…prohibiting the ten commandments being posted in the court room or house….because it prohibits the free excercise of religion…no law…means none….
there are a lot of laws that violate the constitution that exist for no other reason that judicial activism….the err of men is the misinterpetation of the words “no law”…its an absolute guarantee in the constitution…
44. Rana Quijotesca | July 11th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
The last time I checked, “Free Exercise” meant that you could freely exercise your religion, not that you could exercise your religion for free… For example, you can put a magnetic cross sticker on your car, but you can’t use taxpayer money to subsidize that sticker. Hell… you wouldn’t want me to use tax money to proselytize Atheism or Islam, so why should you be able to do it for Christianity. There is a big difference between doing something “freely” and doing something “for free.”
45. Sarah Bloch | July 11th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
53. js | July 11th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
It also says “congress” that document says nothing about individuals or community standards. If local school boards don’t want you proselytizing then that’s that. If they want everyone to pray a Christian prayer before non federal funded school day begins and mandate that everyone stand as long as “the Congress” does not pass that law it isn’t federal establishment of religion.
It’s a community standards thing not a Constitutional thing. And there’s no such thing as judicial activism js just decision made based on interpretations of the law which you don’t agree with.
46. Jeremiah | July 11th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Where majority opinion is of Judeo-Christianity there is less evil…..there is peace through the law because people will not stand for acts which might cause division and a straying away from the that sacred law.
Outside those areas such as in large Metropolitan areas you have more crime and such, because the law made according to standards and laws which are centered around money–the largest business owners taking the share of the business….evils then are permitted, drugs and pornography are a big time thing in the inner city, on the west coast it’s primarily sodomy.
People in these areas have no jobs conducive to clean, decent work, so the easiest most evil become more prevalent…and this all has to do with the ideology we call….liberalism - Which says, “You have a right to do whatever you like, no matter who it destroys in the process, you can even destroy yourself if you like. Which is ultimately what winds up happening.
Atheists and liberals may confuse people if they like, but they can be rest assured that this confusion and mass chaos will surely come to and end. God will take so much….and then you have to stop forcing your bigotry.
I look forward to that day!
47. FmrMarine | July 11th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
co
>>>>I know I would run in the opposite direction if I saw old Jeremiah heading my way.>>>
I dont think ole Jer speaks french, so not to worry you will never see him in quebec .
I am so glad you are so worked up by US politics, that you are ignoring the sharia law and marxism overtaking your nutty split-divided country.
Canada in 10 years = Iran.
48. Deejah Thoris | July 11th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
64. Jeremiah | July 11th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
Let me guess Jeremiah based upon your beliefs women should not work outside the home, should not use birth control, may not have sex beofre marriage, must never withhold sex from their husbands, must never handle the finaces of the home, must always be silent when men are speaking, must never smoke tobacco or drink alcohol. White women must never have any contact with black men lest they be tempted.
Based upon those educated guesses you either live in Appalachia or the trio of Idaho, Wyoming or rural Colorado. My guess remains the rural mountain south VA WV KY or TN.
49. FmrMarine | July 11th, 2008 at 4:29 pm
FS
>>>Just which metroolitan areas have you visited where porn was more prevalent>>>
NYC….times square! san francisco, chicago,
detroit. LA etc……and the pitchfork LOL
50. Mark Noonan | July 11th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
counterpundit,
With the very wide variety of plates out there these days, I don’t see any problem with having the two or three people interested having the FSM on their plate…
The problem isn’t a few weirdos who might take advantage; the problem is when the overwhelming majority is told to keep silent in the public square.
51. FmrMarine | July 11th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
DT
>>>Based upon those educated guesses you either live in Appalachia or the trio of Idaho, Wyoming or rural Colorado. My guess remains the rural mountain south VA WV KY or TN.>>>
So only a dimwitted back woods goof could have the beliefs of JER?
I hate to break this to your snob ass little pea brain…….THEY are ALL AROUND….beee careful be VERRRRRRY Careful, one may anoint you, then you will melt!
52. FmrMarine | July 11th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Mark
>>>The problem isn’t a few weirdos who might take advantage; the problem is when the overwhelming majority is told to keep silent in the public square.>>>
That is what conservatives have been fighting against for years.
Also In FLA “vanity” plates are not paid for by the state.
We pay an EXTRA $65.00 per year for them.
I happen to have a USMC plate.
So the argument of the state paying for them is a LIE!
53. FmrMarine | July 11th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
deejah;
Actually we have a video of ole Jer on his porch…..
at home.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8794547850130800157&q=dave+chappell+clayton+bigsby&ei=IMZ3SNDgEIWqrwLAp52bCA&hl=en
54. CanadianObserver | July 11th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
63. FmrMarine | July 11th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
co
>>>>I know I would run in the opposite direction if I saw old Jeremiah heading my way.>>>
I dont think ole Jer speaks french, so not to worry you will never see him in quebec .
———————————
And for that, FmrMarine, I will be forever thankful.
That video was awesome; didn’t think you had such an amazing sense of humor. Are you sure your not a closet Liberal, FmrMarine?
Imagine, Jeremiah, a blind black white supremacist. Too funny!!!
55. FmrMarine | July 11th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
FS;
>>sodomy can’t be far BEHIND!>>>
EASY there freddy!
56. FmrMarine | July 11th, 2008 at 5:14 pm
CO
>>>That video was awesome; didn’t think you had such an amazing sense of humor. Are you sure your not a closet Liberal, FmrMarine?>>>
No but I have lots of friends many of them Libs.
some gay, some Christians, some Jews.
We dont see eye to eye on politics but our friendships transcends all that. I actually do have a wicked sense of humor, sometimes you have to sit back and say WTF? did he really mean that?
Maybe…..Maybe not. LOL
57. Mark Noonan | July 11th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
Deejah,
Yep, we Christians are just a bunch of slack-jawed yokels…if only we were as smart as you, we could write like this:
Ooopps….seems I made a mistake, that was a Chrsitian bit of thinking, there. G K Chesterton, actually….so, we must relegate it to the worthless mental droppings of the backwards Christian…
58. Mark Noonan | July 11th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
FmrMarine,
Me, too - I pay for my Navy plates…
59. What? | July 11th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
Mark writes:
“The problem isn’t a few weirdos who might take advantage; the problem is when the overwhelming majority is told to keep silent in the public square.”
One: You do not understand what the public square is. It does not include the government priniting license plates with religious slogans on them just because people want such plates.
Two: This is not a free speech issue. There is not right to a government plate saying you love Jesus. If that were the case, a person could demand the government print a plate that says Jesus blows.
Three: This is an establishment clause issue.
Four: Learn the difference between oppression and non-promotion. Just because the government doesn’t promote your view doesn’t mean you are oppressed. Why is this distinction so hard to grasp?
60. js | July 11th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
57. Sarah Bloch
you must have been a real blot on your mothers conscionce Sarah Blot….because the truth is that congress has passed laws restricting the free excercise of religion…and the courts have taken the afirmative stand to prevent the free excercise of religion….using schools as a primary example, since you brought them into this….otherwise, in a nation that is well over 70% Christian…most schools would still be saing prayers in the mornings like they did when I was a child….any law that violates that free excercise is unconstitutional…no matter how much lip flapping you want to throw at it…
“NO LAW” is pretty simple to understand…but then again….most liberals have problems with the simple truth about things….
61. js | July 11th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
really must not like you too much jerimiah…they have you confused with jessie jackson and al sharpton or something like that…
62. Mark Noonan | July 11th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
nhak,
No, she wasn’t - she was using the left’s laughably false stereotypes about believers.
63. Deejah Thoris | July 11th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
74. Mark Noonan | July 11th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
Not surprising you can only find support for your ideology in a man who died nerly 100 years ago and not an American.
64. js | July 11th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
Deleted - off topic.
65. Mark Noonan | July 11th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
what,
Uh, no - the public square is everything that happens outside the home or private club/organization…inside my house is not the public square, outside my front door, is; inside my parish church is not the public square, outside the church door, is. The government is part of the public square and the public has the right - under reasonable regulations for safety - to express itself in the public square, including on the license plate of a vehicle which is not a constitutional issue at all, but just a means of easily identifying who owns the car…even if the person is a Christian. We don’t have to have the plates, what, but we, the people - including religious people - decided that it is wise to have such plates for varied reasons…and we, the people, can darned well decide what we’ll put on them.
The government doesn’t, also, promote anything - it compels or fobids…the fact that a license plate says “I believe” with a cross on it neither compels nor forbids you any action. So, its not an establishement issue - but any attempt to overturn the will of the people and ban these plates is an unconstitutional suppression of the free speech rights of the people.
66. Sarah Bloch | July 11th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
78. js | July 11th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
Schools being federally funded cannot allow Christian prayer as a mandate for students. No matter what religion is most common the federal system does not allow Christianity or any other religion to be promoted in public schools to the exclusion of all others.
If you wished for religious multiculturalism js that would be one thing but since you wish for Christian dominance you may not have it and this was seen to by the Founding Fathers who knew fanatics about Christendom eventually would reach into the chest of democracy and attempt to pull out its heart. Jefferson, Adams, Franklin all were men of Faith but their Faith was quiet and deep as opposed to modern Christians who wear that thing out on their sleeve so everyone can see how righteous they are. The Fathers of your country saw you come from nearly three centuries away and wrote just enough of their belief into those two great documents to appease the current sensitivities and offer an escape route for Progress a score of decades into the future.
67. js | July 11th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
more liberal lip flapping…how is it that they spit so many words but so little meaning…just like the shallow attempt by freddy black…taking quotes out of context…quoting a letter from Thomas Jefferson To Thomas Law Poplar Forest, dated June 13, 1814…where Jefferson actually extolls the widom of God by stating ” It shows how necessary was the care of the Creator in making the moral principle so much a part of our constitution as that no errors of reasoning or of speculation might lead us astray from its observance in practice. ”
anyone can manipulate the meaning of the writtings of others through omission….yet it seems as only the lame and the liberal need too…
68. kmg | July 11th, 2008 at 9:11 pm
Deleted - off topic.
69. What? | July 11th, 2008 at 9:33 pm
Mark writes,
“The government is part of the public square and the public has the right - under reasonable regulations for safety - to express itself in the public square, including on the license plate of a vehicle which is not a constitutional issue at all, but just a means of easily identifying who owns the car…even if the person is a Christian.”
Wow,
Mark, the government is not a public forum. Public forums are physical locations or means of transmitting speech such as a book or radio waves.
What you said doesn’t even make sense. A government regulation is not a platform where you exercise your free speech rights. And you don’t have the right to compel the government to speak for you.
Think of what you just said. That would mean one person could compel the government to print any license plate he wanted. He could force the government to print a driver’s license with torah inscriptions. A single person could force the government to print a passport with a personal poem on it. Moving on.
License plates are a constitutional issue because they are printed by the government and thus their creation is a government action and subject to the Constitution. If they are used as a vehicle to favor one religion over another they violate the constitution.
“We don’t have to have the plates, what, but we, the people - including religious people - decided that it is wise to have such plates for varied reasons…and we, the people, can darned well decide what we’ll put on them.”
This completely misunderstands the point of having the Bill of Rights. You, the great historian, don’t even understand the purpose behind a key part of our founding document.
Also, it is an establishment clause issue because the government may not promote one religion over another. I realize in your world you are making up your own laws, but here in the real world we have decided the establishment law does not permit government promotion of religion. See Supreme Court’s decision in Lemon.
Mark, read some books on Constitutional law. Understand what the first amendment says and you will see this cannot be a free speech issue. The government cannot prevent you from practicing your religion or speaking but it does not have to print your speech for you on government property.
You simply do not have a free speech right to compel the government to make you religious trinkets that express your love of Jesus.
You have the right to vote to have your representitives make those trinkets. However, the government does not have the power to enact such legislation because of the Establishment Clause.
Finally this:
“The government doesn’t, also, promote anything - it compels or fobids”
This is just flat out wrong. The government promotes numerous activities such as obtaining a higher education, starting a small business, marriage, donating to charities, the arts, scientific advancements. Need I go on?
Noonan, if you want to argue with me I suggest you think before writing down something that is contrary to relaity. You make it too easy.
70. Jeremiah | July 11th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
The government promotes numerous activities such as obtaining a higher education
“Education”…you say? Well, they may be educated, but they sure aren’t taught anything which will lead them to do good. Liberalism and it’s effects are being felt all over….and will get worse.
71. Jeremiah | July 11th, 2008 at 10:15 pm
See Supreme Court’s decision in Lemon.
And they ruled contrary to the Constitution.
As for the Establishment Clause, it’s purpose is to prohibit the government from interfering with, or to make laws which might be contrary to the First amendment.
A question….If the words of Jefferson referring to God in the Declaration of Independence do not offend you…then why should you be offended by any other speech in a classroom or graduation ceremony which invokes God?
We are to show our gratitude and thanks in all we do, and doesn’t matter where it is or who we are….giving thanks to God and sharing that with others is what pleases God.
There was a girl somewhere, I can’t remember, but she was the valedictorian of the class, you might have seen it on “Speechless - silencing the Christians series” where she was asked to write a speech and deliver it in the commencement ceremonies of her class, well, then the Principal or teachers looked the speech over and everywhere she had God and Jesus Christ mentioned, they erased or drew a mark through it and said they she wasn’t allowed to say God or Jesus. Well when time came that she was to give her speech, and there were ACLU memebers setting at the front of the auditorium or gym just waiting for her to mention Jesus name, and the very second she done this they cut the miche off so then she had to speak up a little louder.
A tell you, that was pretty low down of them to do her that way…
What thye done to this little girl, is what the Establishment Clause seeks to stop or prohibit…..Do you hear me? The Establishment Clause prohibits the ACLU from doing anything which might interfere with these speeches and Christian prayers.
72. Jeremiah | July 11th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
Which means all have the freedom to pray and read the Bible anywhere you wish at any time, and no one can compel you to read if you don’t want to.
Yet the ACLU and all these other hatemongering groups are the ones who violate half of the Establishment Clause for their own benefit and take our freedoms away.
73. js | July 11th, 2008 at 11:05 pm
and the kicker….
the aclu was established by the communist party in america….
they dont want justice…or freedom…civil rights is a cover to take those very things away
74. js | July 11th, 2008 at 11:07 pm
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41751
The ACLU was founded in the 1920s by Roger Baldwin and Crystal Eastman, described as a “progressive” and “the perfect feminist.”
Earl Browder was general secretary of the Communist Party of the United States from 1930 through its dissolution in 1944. When the party was reconstituted as the Communist Political Association later that year, Browder was chosen as its president. Browder proudly proclaimed that the ACLU functioned as “a transmission belt” for the party. To deny the ACLU’s founding was attached at the hip to communist organizations is to deny what can easily be proven as truth.
For the past few decades, the ACLU has been on a major crusade to destroy Christianity in America, promote filth under “freedom of speech and expression,” and of course, vigorously defend the homosexual culture of death. On Jan. 10, 1963, Congressman Albert S. Herlong Jr., D-Fla., read a list of 45 communist goals into the Congressional Record. Below are the communist goals being implemented by the ACLU in their quest to destroy America’s culture and traditions:
Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions, by claiming their activities violate civil rights.
Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers associations. Put the party line in textbooks.
Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all form of artistic expression. An American communist cell was told to “eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings,” substituting shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms.
Control art critics and directors of art museums. “Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art.”
Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them “censorship” and a violation of free speech and free press.
Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio and television.
Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as “normal, natural and healthy.”
Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with “social” religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity, which does not need a “religious crutch.”
Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the grounds that it violates the principle of “separation of church and state.”
Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of “the big picture.” Give more emphasis to Russian history since the communists took over. Obliterating the American past, with its antecedents in principles of freedom, liberty and private ownership is a major goal of the communists then and now.
Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture – education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.
Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.
Anyone who has been following the destructive path of the ACLU can easily see how effective these communist goals have been implemented to “promote democracy” and protect your “civil rights.” Lenin stated: “Communism alone is capable of providing really complete democracy.” (See Tucker, “The Lenin Anthology”). James Madison, known as the “Father of the Constitution” had something different to say about a democracy:
Democracy is the most vile form of government … democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention, have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property, and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.
Perhaps it’s time to recognize the ACLU as the American Communist Lawyers Union instead of their disingenuous “civil rights” stage name.
75. js | July 11th, 2008 at 11:22 pm
it doesnt matter if you want to believe it or not
christians and christianity established america and made it what it is today
the reason we are in the condition we are in right now is because our government has denied its roots and began a crusade toward socialism which will eventually lead to a communist state
if you want to worship man and material goods, this is the age for it….if you reject christianity…you made your choice.
Mt 6:24 - No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
..dont tell us there is another religion you chose to follow…for there is only One…and He is the Christ…whom Christians follow…
Php 2:11 - And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father
76. Mark Noonan | July 12th, 2008 at 1:17 am
what,
If you really think that the government of a democratic republic is not a public forum, then there’s not much for you and I to discuss here.
But I will point out that I’m pretty familiar with the First Amendment:
Pretty straightfoward stuff and only a liberal can screw it up - Congress can’t establish a religion and, by extension, neither can the State governments…a license plate doesn’t establish a religion. I know, you’ve got Supreme Court rulings saying otherwise (or at least implying otherwise), but the really funny thing is that we are not under a judicial tyranny…just ’cause a judge (or even nine judges) say so doesn’t make it forever so, or even right for a moment.
77. JustAnotherTaxpayer | July 12th, 2008 at 2:14 am
Deleted - off topic.
78. Deejah Thoris | July 12th, 2008 at 5:32 am
Deleted - off topic.
79. Jeremiah | July 12th, 2008 at 6:00 am
Mr. Taxpayer,
I don’t see where Mark mentioned my name.
Apparently he and I feel the same on this so called “Seperation of Church and State” issue.
I believe the Constitution allows us to exercise our faith in the public square, in school, or wherever we may have the opportunity to share the love of Christ with lost souls in this world…….That’s what America is all about, because our ForeFathers fought to defend our right to worship and witness.
Religion is an expression of speech, is it not?
Christianity has never harmed anyone, and it never will….but whenever we mention Christ’s name in the public square or in school……..All the Atheists teachers start whispering evil sentiments amongst one another, “Them “evil” Christians are at it again, oh boy, we better call the ACLU and get some lawsuits filed against this clap-trap. IMMEDIATELY!”
(Ed. Note: Off topic part of comment deleted)
80. pelirrojo | July 12th, 2008 at 6:52 am
Has anyone been told they are not allowed to pray at all in school? no. What they have been told is that a teacher cannot hold a class prayer, same as a muslim teacher cannot hold a class prayer and force christian students to go along with it.
As for the topic, no one seems to be addressing it. In this case the christians are being treated like they’re better than the rest, the rules no longer apply to them. Would you be happy to see an islamic number plate with words on it? If not why should christians get one?
81. Jeremiah | July 12th, 2008 at 7:24 am
pelirrijo,
There’s nothing at all wrong with the license plate…why should a Muslim be offended?
It’s not like the cross will jump out and attack them, right?
When a Muslim attacks somebody in the name of Allah, do you reckon they offend anyone in the process? I’d say so, cuz some people lost family members very dear to them to a whack job in the name of Muhammad.
What a disgrace….and you mean to tell me you are asceared of a cross on a license plate?
Get real, dude…
82. Eric T | July 12th, 2008 at 7:50 am
Deleted - off topic.
83. pelirrojo | July 12th, 2008 at 7:56 am
jerry, i never said it would offend anyone, and you completely dodged the question. I said would you be willing to see license plates made for the islamic faith? I have no idea what theyd want on it, but some islamic symbol and some writing of their choice under it. Would you agree to that? if not why should the christians get theirs?
84. kmg | July 12th, 2008 at 8:39 am
Deleted - off topic.
85. CanadianObserver | July 12th, 2008 at 11:12 am
So is it agreed?
Any citizen of the United States of America wanting to display their religious or other beliefs on the license plates of their vehicle is free to do so, as long as they foot the bill.
86. Deejah Thoris | July 12th, 2008 at 11:13 am
Deleted - complains about comment policy.
87. What? | July 13th, 2008 at 1:52 am
So Mark,
Familiarity amounts to copying and pasting the text of the First Amendment?
Then there is this:
“If you really think that the government of a democratic republic is not a public forum, then there’s not much for you and I to discuss here.”
Please explain how the government is a public forum. Mark, I really think you need to re-examine what the Bill of Rights is designed to do. It does not give a person a right to have the government print a license plate with whatever he wants on it. Really, does your argument sound right to you?
Also what is really funny is how the Supreme Court only practices judicial tyranny when it decides against you. You could almost call what you do flip-flopping!
88. What? | July 13th, 2008 at 1:58 am
Jeremiah,
You do realize Jefferson was a deist who believed in strict separation between church and state?
Jefferson is not the person you want to point to prove this country was founded on Christian principles.
Also, there is this:
“As for the Establishment Clause, it’s purpose is to prohibit the government from interfering with, or to make laws which might be contrary to the First amendment.”
Jerimiah, read the text. What you said makes no sense.
And finally this:
““Education”…you say? Well, they may be educated, but they sure aren’t taught anything which will lead them to do good.”
Out of curiosity, Jeremiah, what should they learn?
89. Mark Noonan | July 13th, 2008 at 2:16 am
what,
Well there’s our fundamental difference - you don’t understand what the Bill of Rights does. We don’t get rights from the government - we use government to secure rights we already have. Don’t look for permission in the Constitution, but for prohibitions - Congress is prohibited from establishing a religion and, by extension, the State governments are also so prohibited. What you’re trying to say is that because the constitution doesn’t give me permission to have religious icons in any way related to government functions (the plates, by the way, don’t belong to the government - they belong to the people who purchase them) I can’t have a plate with religious iconography. This is nonsense - you will have to find a definitive provision of the Constitution saying I can’t do it - and only then will you be able to say that having a cross on a license plate is unconstitutional.
90. What? | July 13th, 2008 at 4:10 am
Mark writes,
“We don’t get rights from the government - we use government to secure rights we already have.”
This is one quarter right.
The Bill of rights is design to prohibit the government from infringing on fundamental rights which we already have. These rights are enumerated in the Bill of Rights and subsequent Amendments along with prohibitions against the government infringing on these rights.
The government, by passing laws, creates rights for us as well. Unlike fundamental rights found in the constitution, these rights can be taken away. You have a right to be publically educated, but it is not a fundamental right and may be revoked by an act of Congress.
Here is your problem.
Your right to free speech is a right not to have the government prevent you from speaking. They can’t pass a law saying you can’t run this web site because they would be silencing you.
On the other hand, you are saying you have a right to a license plate that reflects your love of Jesus. You are saying the First Amendment allows you, Mark Noonan alone, to determine what goes on your license plate. Do you see the difference. You are making a negative right, the right not to have your speech infringed upon, a positive right, namely to have the government print you a license plate of your choosing. This is not how the First Amendment works. It doesn’t allow you to force the government to create your speech. It only prevent the government from silencing you. Can you personally demand your government to print you a passport with bible verse in it. Under your understanding of th First Amendment, you could.
I think your other problem is your understanding of the term public forum. Public forums include parks and sidewalks. The government cannot unreasonably restrict a person’s access to these forums. The government is not a forum for an individual’s public speech in the Constitutional sense. I understand wht you are getting at. We use the electoral process to voice our will but this is not what the free speech provison of the first amendment is about.
Then there is this:
“What you’re trying to say is that because the constitution doesn’t give me permission to have religious icons in any way related to government functions (the plates, by the way, don’t belong to the government - they belong to the people who purchase them) I can’t have a plate with religious iconography.”
This is not what I am saying. You misunderstood. The constitution does not prohibit an American citzen from doing anything. It prohibits the government for doing certain things, including promoting one religion over another religion. The license plate in question does this because the state government is providing special treatment to Chrisitians. It is playing favorites. The Establishment Clause prohibits this.
Now that I see your misinterpretation of the Constitution, your whole political ideology makes a lot more sense.
Also, license plates are government property, as are driver’s licenses and passports. The government can take them from you as long as they comply with the Due Process Clause. They don’t have to pay you for them. You have a possessory interest in them and a property interest in the right they represent, but the documents themselves belong to the government. Compare this with your house. The government has to pay you to take your house from you.
Think of government documents like your creditcards. Credit cards are property of the credit card company in that they can be revoked at anytime. Thankfully, government has to comply with the Due Process clause. Credit card companies do not.
Finally, where do you come up with your interpretation of the Constitution? Is this your personal understanding or is this view held by other conservatives?
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