Humanae Vitae at 40
July 27th, 2008 at 09:19am Mark Noonan
This would be, of course, Pope Paul VI’s encyclical, published on July 25th, 1968. Even for Catholics, this is the most misunderstood, misinterpreted and denigrated encyclical of modern times. It is also, as it turns out, one of the most important, and one which daily proves itself prescient about what we now call the “culture of death” would lead to. In dealing boldy with matters of contraception, abortion and sex in general, Paul VI entered into a hornet’s nest during the so-called “sexual revolution” - a time when a few men, joined by a few rather foolish women, actually convinced most people that its ok for a woman to just have sex with any guy coming down the pike, as there is contraception and abortion to remedy any ill effects. The sexual catastrophe we see around us - massive illegitimacy, increased poverty and crime and, of course, the absolute horror of millions upon millions of murdered unborn children - is the result of that sexual revolution, and all of it would have been averted had people just paid heed to Paul VI.
Responsible men can become more deeply convinced of the truth of the doctrine laid down by the Church on this issue if they reflect on the consequences of methods and plans for artificial birth control. Let them first consider how easily this course of action could open wide the way for marital infidelity and a general lowering of moral standards. Not much experience is needed to be fully aware of human weakness and to understand that human beings—and especially the young, who are so exposed to temptation—need incentives to keep the moral law, and it is an evil thing to make it easy for them to break that law. Another effect that gives cause for alarm is that a man who grows accustomed to the use of contraceptive methods may forget the reverence due to a woman, and, disregarding her physical and emotional equilibrium, reduce her to being a mere instrument for the satisfaction of his own desires, no longer considering her as his partner whom he should surround with care and affection.
Finally, careful consideration should be given to the danger of this power passing into the hands of those public authorities who care little for the precepts of the moral law. Who will blame a government which in its attempt to resolve the problems affecting an entire country resorts to the same measures as are regarded as lawful by married people in the solution of a particular family difficulty? Who will prevent public authorities from favoring those contraceptive methods which they consider more effective? Should they regard this as necessary, they may even impose their use on everyone. It could well happen, therefore, that when people, either individually or in family or social life, experience the inherent difficulties of the divine law and are determined to avoid them, they may give into the hands of public authorities the power to intervene in the most personal and intimate responsibility of husband and wife…
…We take this opportunity to address those who are engaged in education and all those whose right and duty it is to provide for the common good of human society. We would call their attention to the need to create an atmosphere favorable to the growth of chastity so that true liberty may prevail over license and the norms of the moral law may be fully safeguarded.
Everything therefore in the modern means of social communication which arouses men’s baser passions and encourages low moral standards, as well as every obscenity in the written word and every form of indecency on the stage and screen, should be condemned publicly and unanimously by all those who have at heart the advance of civilization and the safeguarding of the outstanding values of the human spirit. It is quite absurd to defend this kind of depravity in the name of art or culture (25) or by pleading the liberty which may be allowed in this field by the public authorities…
…And now We wish to speak to rulers of nations. To you most of all is committed the responsibility of safeguarding the common good. You can contribute so much to the preservation of morals. We beg of you, never allow the morals of your peoples to be undermined. The family is the primary unit in the state; do not tolerate any legislation which would introduce into the family those practices which are opposed to the natural law of God. For there are other ways by which a government can and should solve the population problem—that is to say by enacting laws which will assist families and by educating the people wisely so that the moral law and the freedom of the citizens are both safeguarded.
There is very much more in it, and I do recommend that anyone with a genuine love of reason to take the time to go through it.
When Paul VI spoke of the evils which will come of making violations of moral laws easy amongst the young, he hit the target dead center. These days, we pass out condoms to kids and dare to say they are “protected” - what would at one time have gotten an adult a jail sentence has been translated into a supposedly decent act! For the love of God, good people, we’re treating children as if they were a legtimate part of extramarital sexual activity! I know we had the terrible scandal in the Church on this very issue - but does anyone think that only some failed priests started viewing children as legitimate sexual prey? How can we say we want to protect our children when we bombard them with direct and indirect appeals to loose the bonds of morality and throw their sexual lives on to the indiscriminate pile of depraved popular culture?
Also well taken to heart must be Paul VI’s assertion that a loosening of sexual bonds via contraception and abortion would lead more and more men to view women as mere objects of sexual gratification. We speak these days of men who won’t commit - why on earth should they? They are getting all the sex they can handle without having to commit to more than dinner and a movie (if even that much). I’m sure that most of us have known or at least known of a man who has several children by several different women - is this respecting women? Is this what sexual liberation was supposed to do? Turn a woman into a sperm bank for a roving man? How is all of this we see in 2008 superior to the old sexual morality we were eagerly casting aside as Paul VI wrote his encyclical?
Also, don’t think for a moment that I am standing on high as some pure man - heck no! I jumped into the sexual revolution feet first as soon as I got the opportunity. I have learned, now, that the only proper place for sex is between a man and a woman who have committed to completely self-donate one to the other. Only by such an act - such a promise - is sex liberated from the animal and partakes of the divine, and becomes far more than just the sex act. It is a terrible thing we’ve done in breaking down the family and instructing our children to be as sexual as possible as soon as possible - millions, literally, are dead because of this…and not just the aborted children. All of those who have died of AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases must also be laid at the door of the sexual revolution. Millions of families have been destroyed, almost invariably to the severe detriment of the mothers and children. Never in human history - even during the most depraved periods of the Roman Empire - has a society so diligently sought out the means of its own destruction.
It is time to become true progressives here - understanding that if you’ve taken a wrong turning, the only way to progress is to turn back to where you first went wrong. We can’t add to the sexual revolution and get something good - it was wrong from the start, and we have to ditch the whole thing. Only by so doing will women find that liberation the sexual liberators promised…only by so doing will we recall men to their duty as husbands and fathers. Only by so doing will we rescue the family and thus save our civilization.
Entry Filed under: Life Issues, Popular Culture
60 Comments
1. neocon | July 27th, 2008 at 9:45 am
Mark,
While we agree on many things, I believe this assertion of yours is just bit too simplistic, and an attempt to turn back the clock, which is never possible. The proclamation by the Pope is certainly the ideal but we are dealing with the failings of man and again, that ship has sailed.
Broken families are definitely a societal problem that tends to create other problems as well, but I think this problem is more of a personal responsibility issue and not a sex issue. As a society, we do not hold men accountable for their procreation choices and that needs to change. Men should be publicly shunned if they fail to live up to the fatherly duties. Abandoning their offspring is the most egregious, heinous, irresponsible act any man could ever commit.
Secondly, a very comprehensive, and inclusive sex education program in junior high is essential. The program needs to include the virtues of abstinence, the negative financial and emotional ramifications of bearing children at an early age, and the potential for life changing diseases.
These are the problem areas that can be addressed in a manner that may have a positive impact on this problem plaguing our society. Responsible, consenting adults having sex outside of matrimony is the least of our problems.
2. js | July 27th, 2008 at 9:52 am
i was listening to an old album…the alan parsons project…and its artistic content is so great…to the point of immersion in illusion…a world that doesnt exist anywhere but within the mind….
this type of mental excercise is how we overcame our moral responsibility to our children…by allowing the state to dictate right and wrong instead of right and wrong dictating the actions of the state….while birth control might have its medical purposes….legitimately….can we justify the removal of honor and self control it imposted on our society….on the voice of the people…through the abuse of drugs…
because a few years afterwards…we legalized abortion en masse…another step away from individual responsibility….encouraging licensious behavior because we took away the consequence of immorality…and replaced it with a pill…and if the pill does not work or is inconvenient…with the knife….to slice the living child from the womb of the only portector it has…aborting the consequence of irresponsibility….the consequence of immorality…making what is right…to be wrong…and what is wrong…to be the socially acceptible…the norm….
3. js | July 27th, 2008 at 9:55 am
“Responsible, consenting adults having sex outside of matrimony is the least of our problems.”
yet, when we let our selfish lusts control our lives, instead of us controling our lusts…do we really have the right to tell our children what morality is…or are we actually setting the example for thier future…thier failure…
the sins of the father are truely passed on to the children…
4. js | July 27th, 2008 at 9:59 am
do what you need to make you feel better is not always the right answer
because when we stop feeling…we dont have to do anything
5. neocon | July 27th, 2008 at 10:13 am
js,
“Responsible” adults know of, and control their selfish lust, and do not let it control them. There are millions of adults that share their love with one another outside of matrimony that is not driven by lust or the need to “feel better”, but by a genuine love and respect for one another.
Let’s focus on the real problems that stem from this issue.
6. kmg | July 27th, 2008 at 10:18 am
neocon,
I agree with you almost 100%. I think society does not punish men who abandon their children, but the only area in which you can force men (and women) to live up to their responsibilities is financial. We can, and should aggressively go after parents who refuse to financially support their children, but there is no way to force them to spend time with them, mentor them, and provide the positive role models they need as they mature.
I also agree on the need for comprehensive sex education that includes all of the topics you named. However, birth control also needs to be part of that education. We know that not every kid is going to keep their pants zipped and those who don’t need factual information on how they can reduce the chances of pregnancy and disease.
7. neocon | July 27th, 2008 at 10:30 am
kmg,
This is a first, but I agree, birth control also needs to be part of the instruction.
I will take it one step further. Our welfare system is designed to reward irresponsible choices and behaviour. The more children a single mother has, the more support she receives. Over time, and not in a punishing manner, this needs to be reversed and we should be rewarding good behaviour and choices.
8. CanadianObserver | July 27th, 2008 at 10:33 am
Congrats on posting some intelligent thoughts, neocon.
9. kmg | July 27th, 2008 at 10:58 am
neocon,
I also agree on the welfare system. I haven’t given the topic a lot of thought, but benefits should not increase when a mother has additional children while on welfare. But there has to be a way to keep that from endangering the children. Education should be part of it, as well as ensuring that she knows how to access and use contraceptives. But if a woman continues to have children without regard to how that impacts her existing children, society may have to evaluate whether or not she is fit to continue parenting those children. I know that is punishing, but sometimes you have to make the hard choice for the benefit of the children.
10. Jeremiah | July 27th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
When we look back at where the problem all started we see that the problem was partially the parents fault, but not all … because most if not all parents had their upbringing as a child in church on Sunday mornings where they received the proper instruction on raising a family, and moral living from the Bible, which, by all standards considered is the only authority on morality.
Those days have long since passed, and now were are faced with several generations of parents who know not what it means to ‘raise a family’. With most teens and young college-going adults the word or though of ‘marriage’ never even enters their mind….they’ve not necessarily been neglected so far as their living requirements are concerned, because most children if given the opportunity of college most usually have parents that are pretty well off financially speaking…but what about their ethical responsibilities to themselves and their opposite sex counterparts…is their any intelligence there at all that might clue them in on what is “correct” or “incorrect” … Well, to put in quite bluntly, sooner or later all children as they transition and mature, from youngster into the adult phase of life will come to the realization that they have attraction and feelings for the opposite sex…….now, if left to their own vices without any instruction on the moral obligations they have to themselves…then can they be expected to do the right thing and wait for marriage? Can they be expected to care for the life they’ve created? No, of course not. And is the case this day and age, but in ages past where parents either had no desire to take time out with their children and teaching them properly, or had to work long hours just to make ends meet they had teachers at school who could take the parents responsibility of teaching them and the parents did not have to worry about their child learning something that went against their values system which was and still is for some but becoming fewer and fewer, The Bible.
So where has America went wrong? In the larger picture we notice that by and large Christians or they proclaim to be “Christians” anyway have neglected their responsibility to ensure that their message remained intact at the State level…So, where Christians have left off, the ACLU (those who do Satan’s work) have taken over, we didn’t notice much impact when they first began in the 1920s but it took from then until now to notice the major disaster that has become a result of permitting the ACLU to establish its roots of evil in this country. They have now pervaded and infected every school in this country, and they’re now concentrating on removing God out of our higher places of authority State Capitols and their legislative sessions…..for example, a legislator opens sessions with prayer in Jesus name and the ACLU seeks to impose fines and possibly prison time for saying a prayer….My how we’ve changed, huh? Our Constitution was built upon prayer and yet our critics claim otherwise. What fools!!
In more recent news, gay and lesbian groups more properly called Sodomites are waging a campaign against the Bible, can you believe this…they are suing the Bible companies because they are offended by the verses that condemn their sick perversion. I can’t remember how much they’re asking for but it’s way up there, several million or billion. I don’t remember which. One fellow has even been tearing out the pages he disagrees with.
Regardless, whether the pages are there or not, God’s Word still stands just the same, when God says it’s wrong, you better believe that it … IS …. WRONG!
But to get back to what I was saying, this is where it all leads when Christians fail to counter and fight the evil that is being imposed on your children…because any law that we try to make that has some good for children in teaching them the proper course to take the ACLU then blocks it and gives them their version instead. The ACLU tolerates pornography in school, but why not the Bible, eh?
So what it all really boils down too, is, what are you going to do about the ACLU?
Chances are, that nobody will do anything, and those who would, there are not enough of them (too many generations worth of liberalism and the ACLU indoctrination)…The ACLU and liberals have done decided your child’s future….make no bones about it, the ACLU is intent on destroying your child, which will in turn destroy America in the next few generations.
Sadly, but sure enough, there are many more worse things to come and I just pray that God will give each of His believers the strength to endure and to stand up for what little of the Christian influence is left in this once noble Nation.
God bless!
11. Jeremiah | July 27th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Here’s a link to a recent post that shows exactly what it is were are faced with, and ties in with what I’ve been trying to say.
http://onenewsnow.com/Education/Default.aspx?id=192536
You know, Christ should be the center of any family…and when you don’t, then you have demonic forces such as these sodomite hate groups who want to take over your children and lead them on the road to hell.
12. Mark Noonan | July 27th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
neocon,
And yet we must go back - and if we don’t do it voluntarily we will be forced to it. The healthy part of American society - the part which makes the whole continue to function - is that part which was least effected by the siren song of the sexual revolution, joined with that small part (which includes yours truly) who have turned back. The clock, you see, can be turned back, if that is how you wish to view it - I’m living proof of that. I was like that, and now I am not.
Mostly this will be done via example - as a very wise young man I know likes to quote of St. Francis of Assisi - “preach the Gospel constantly; when necessary, use words.” But as we lead by example, there are still practical steps we can take to assist people in either turning aside from depravity, or not turning towards it in the first place.
We can’t, of course, willy-nilly undo abortion and contraception - but we can, if we just decide to, stop the overwhelming propaganda in our popular culture in favor of extramarital sex. We can de-porn our nation, and allow a chance for responsibility to rear its head in public again.
Does anyone really think that the real desire of a 16 year old girl is to get knocked up by some guy who will toss her aside in a moment? Does anyone believe that a 16 year old boy hopes his manhood involves half a dozen children by three or four women, none of whom he commits to? Do we really believe that the best thing for a man to do is to use up part of the life of a woman having a long-term, unmarried sexual relationship which will end after 5 or 10 years? Does anyone out there still buy the argument that a good divorce is better than a bad marriage for the children?
The key is that there is no such thing as two unmarried people having responsible sex - sex is only responsible when it is contained within the bounds of marriage…it is that powerful a thing for either good or bad, and thus requires the greatest respect and care.
Right now, America barely survives on the backs of those who remain responsible - the rest of the western world is dying because the large majority have become entirely irresponsible…permanent teenagers living a rock n’ roll deathstyle…we must turn back.
13. js | July 27th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
responsible adults do what neo?
is that how they add up 50 million abortions in the USA? by being “responsible”….
i dont think you got the point..
14. neocon | July 27th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
Mark,
I respect your opinion and agree on some points, but the desire to demonize responsible, consenting adults for their sexual choices seems is to be a little too judgemental, in my opinion. Ours is not to judge, and consenting adults do not contribute greatly to this problem. Most consenting adults are monogamous while in a relationship and take birth control precautions, so if we focused our energies on the larger problems, we might get something accomplished.
I agree with you on the proliferation of porn and the overall sexualization of our society, it’s actually just very juvenile, and it needs to be toned down. Education and welfare reform can help but holding men accountable is key resolving this problem. Men to step up in this society, quit whining and take care and protect their families if, and when they create them.
js,
C’mon man, get real. This problem is not driven by late twenty, or thirty year old professionals that are “shacking up”. And there is such a thing as a responsible consenting adult.
15. Mark Noonan | July 27th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
Neocon,
In practical terms, we’re probably not too far off given that you feel that we shouldn’t get rid of contraception and I feel that its impractical at the moment. We are, that is, far away from a point where you and I would have to part ways on the issue.
We certainly need to make men more responsible for the children they sire; further welfare reform is clearly needed - but the larger issue I would like to work on for the moment is de-porning America.
I hold that the explosion in pornography is directly related to the acceptance of the value system exemplified by birth control and abortion - so, in a sense, I’ll be attacking the symptom rather than the disease, but I also believe that if I can get rid of the overwhelming amount of pornography in our popular culture I can set up a situation where the example of men and women who live exemplary sexual lives will start to speak for itself, and more and more people will voluntarily subscribe to it, thus continually lessening the appeal of the Culture of Death. As far as you and I agree there is too much porn and we should do something about it, then we’ve got a lot of alliance to work with.
But I will ask you to consider this in the months and years ahead - if a man has a daughter, does he really want her in a long-term relationship, or would he rather have her married, all else being equal? In the answer to that question is the direction one must go.
16. neocon | July 27th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
I do have a daughter, a very bright daughter, and certainly want her to be happy and ultimately in a loving marriage however, knowing the current success rates of marriage, I would not condemn her if she took her time in the relationship and made sure it was right. Divorce is something no child should ever have to go through.
I do agree though that limiting the proliferation of porn, lessening the glorification of sex in advertising and marketing, and raising the level of education will go a long way in leading people down a better path.
17. cam | July 27th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
neocon,
As I understand it people who live together before marriage have a higher divorce rate. So the idea of living together does not pan out.
Mark,
How do you propose that the widespread use of porn be limited? If you see porn as bad then you have to see how free markets fail. This is an excellent example. It also shows that the argument that success in the marketplace is equivalent to virtue is a fallacy.
18. js | July 27th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
“C’mon man, get real. This problem is not driven by late twenty, or thirty year old professionals that are “shacking up”. And there is such a thing as a responsible consenting adult.”
oh so only twenty and thirty year old professionals shack up and have “responsible” sex and never have abortions….
ya…right….surrrrree…..(in your dreams)
it professional conduct like that that sets the example for sure…..
19. neocon | July 27th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
cam,
First of all, I never suggested that my daughter live with someone. Reading comprehension 101.
Please explain the following sentence.
“If you see porn as bad then you have to see how free markets fail.”
And who has ever made the argument that only virtuous companies succeed?
20. js | July 27th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
but wait….
47% of all abortions…are performed on women over 25…..
face it, there are 77 abortions for every 100 live births by unmarried women…all ages included…who…if they didnt have sex before they were married (as was a respectable thing before the mid 60s)
the moral code that seems to protect women from getting pregnant lead to more licensious behavior…resulting in more unwanted pregnancies due to immoral behavior of women who are told its thier right to kill thier child for convenience by the Supreme Court…
21. cam | July 27th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
Neocon,
You are correct. You never did say it explicitly. but it did appear to be inferred. Why then would you even talk about condemnation. Even Jerimiah or JS wouldn’t condemn an individual who waited to get married. And I’m not aware of anyone who condemns dating. So what were you trying to say?
Now regarding explaining “If you see porn as bad then you have to see how free markets fail.”
I thought it was self explanatory. The reason porn has spread so fast in recent years is the internet where you can get as much as you want without regulation. It is one of the purest free markets out there. It shows that an unbridled free market does not always result in good things. If you wish to limit porn, you will have to regulate free markets.
Rush Limbaugh has the highest ratings has regularly been equated to truth. I equate what he does to intellectual pornography.
22. kmg | July 27th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
10. Jeremiah | July 27th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Wow, Jeremiah, over 800 words to say nothing.
Except this:
“…because most if not all parents had their upbringing as a child in church on Sunday mornings where they received the proper instruction on raising a family, and moral living from the Bible, which, by all standards considered is the only authority on morality.”
Is that where you learned to be a bigot and a racist?
23. Mark Noonan | July 27th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
cam,
I don’t know of anyone who holds that market success is inherently virtuous. The free market is inherently superior to the command market, but the fact that one product or one company is more profitable than another is no more an indicator of virtue than regular church attendance is. Virtue is what it is - and there can be an honest petty thief far better morally than the dishonest CEO.
The success of porn was predicted when liberalisation was first suggested - and, indeed, is alluded to in the linked ecylical. Make it easy to sin, and human nature will lead many to sin. Sinning is easy, you see? Just as being a coward or being avant guard is easier than being brave or orthodox so, too, is it easier to give into the temptation to porn than to resist it.
What is amazing is that after 40 years of sexual revolution we still have an apparently large majority of Americans who want regular sexual relations at the very least contained within a long-term, committed relationship…and it might even still be an outright majority wishing sex to be contained within marriage.
And, also, we still must stand amazed that with the massive availability or pornography so many still refuse it - millions do head for the internet for their daily dose of porn, but millions don’t, and wouldn’t dream of doing it. Its hard to be virtuous, but in that difficult task is the reward of a genuinely free and happy life - a life of freedom and happiness those still shackled to pornogrpahic culture can’t even dimly imagine. We bought a very lousy bill of goods in 1968 - we traded our freedom and sanity away, just so Hugh Hefner and those like him could get laid and make lots of money off of pornography.
24. neocon | July 27th, 2008 at 8:51 pm
js,
men are just as complicit, maybe moreso in my opinion.
cam
Sexual relations, and long term relationships can be had by people who do not cohabitate. Do you get it now?
And free markets are regulated every day. Try buying a beer in Utah on Sunday.
Any other bad arguments?
25. cam | July 27th, 2008 at 8:52 pm
Mark,
If you haven’t seen virtue equated to success you haven’t been paying attention.
Anyway, it looks like you have pointed out a problem without providing a solution.
26. Jeremiah | July 27th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
KMG,
Sure, I can live with that, I can live with you calling me a racist and bigot.
Not a problem.
Not much difference in that and your ACLU buddies who tell me the same thing about the Bible that I share with them and then demand that I shut up.
Well, I have this to say…..You can take my Bible from me, but you’ll never take it out of me, cuz its going all the way.
I just hope you got sense enough to come along and not be left behind.
27. js | July 27th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
“men are just as complicit”
sin has no sexual discrimination, is that all you have?
but then again….just how many unmarried women give a man that choice?
complicit or not…the laws that let women say yes really dont give a squat about men…
28. js | July 27th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
A number of legal cases have arisen around the world in which men have tried to prevent women with whom they had been sexually active from obtaining an abortion, all of which failed:
1978: William Paton of Liverpool, United Kingdom attempted to stop his separated wife, Joan, from undergoing an abortion in the 1978 case Paton v. Trustees of British Pregnancy Advisory Service Trustees. A judge ruled in his wife’s favour and Mr. Paton’s later request for a hearing before the European Court of Human Rights was also denied. [5] [6] [7]
1987: Richard Carver of the United Kingdom tried to prevent an abortion in the 1987 case C v. S. He claimed that the Infant Life (Preservation) Act applied to the fetus, as, at the time, his ex-girlfriend was 21 weeks along. When the High Court of Justice and the Court of Appeal dismissed the case, it was brought before the House of Lords, where three Law Lords sided with the earlier decisions. The entire legal process took 36 hours, as the Health Authority refused to allow an abortion before a decision was reached, making it one of the fastest cases in the history of British law. Nonetheless, the woman involved chose to carry the pregnancy to term and gave the baby to Carver. [8] [5] [6] [7]
1989: Jean-Guy Tremblay of Quebec, filed an injunction against his girlfriend, Chantal Daigle, in attempt to prevent her from obtaining an induced abortion in the 1989 Canadian case Tremblay v. Daigle. The Supreme Court of Canada ultimately ruled that there was no precedent for a man’s right to protect his “potential progeny”, as a fetus was not found to have a right to life under the Quebec Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms.
2001: Stephan Hone of Coventry, United Kingdom, attempted to prevent Claire Hansell from having an abortion in 2001. [9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternal_rights_and_abortion
no, abortion is not an equal opportunity “civil right”…so that boat dont float neo.,…
29. js | July 27th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
or maybe you are arguing about birth control???
equal opportunity works there, doesnt it….how many men will say no to sex without any consequence? why dont you ask the 50 million women who aborted thier children…
Paul wasnt talking about what you are talking about though…he was testifying the truth…that these things remove the moral strength that existed before them…birth control let people be immoral….without consequence…which led to abortion on demand…and more immoral behavior…
wanna dispute the morality part? then explain how moral it is to kill 50 million defenseless human beings….
50 million names that were never uttered by thier mothers or thier fathers…
go ahead….
30. kmg | July 27th, 2008 at 10:23 pm
Jeremiah,
You can live with it because you know it is true. You just don’t care because you have bastardized the words of the Bible to justify your prejudices. The words you preach are the words of hate. You believe the races should not mix. You believe homosexuals and fornicators should be executed. You blame boogeymen like the ACLU to make you feel better about the fact that you are powerless and what you preach will never come to pass. You and Fred Phelps have a lot in common.
31. cam | July 28th, 2008 at 12:06 am
Neocon,
I get it now. But the distiction is lost on me.
Regarding free markets, are you saying that you are ok with regulation? I read you differently. I expected you were more of a free market laize faire type. I’ll let you answer that one since you don’t seem to be the purist I assumed you were.
32. Jeremiah | July 28th, 2008 at 12:14 am
KMG,
We really have no right to punish anyone, but it’s just like a rabid animal….you have no other choice, it’s more humane for the animal and you.
Yes, it is God’s place to punish, but that’s why He instituted governments in order to keep the peace and quelling any situation that might interfere with a prosperous civilization. With over 70% of men having sex with men HIV positive…no cure, and the government allowing sodomite clubs to recruit more into their satanic web the government needs to seriously RE-think what it is they are doing wrong.
It’s NO joke….very serious business.
So, to make myself clear, I don’t hate anyone, but when you have reprobates in the organizations like GLSEN, GLBT and others something’s got to be done…..we can’t continue to be pressured by and feel threatened by these scrawny little ACLU lawyers who could care less how many people catch AIDS and and just a million other STDs as a result of the above mentioned groups.
They have been relentless in their attacks on Christians and Christianity in America.
It’s high time in ended, and I know that I’ve a God who is more powerful than all the corrupt ACLU members in the world, just like Mr. DL MOODY he said you give just 10 Holy Spirit men and I’ll turn Chicago upside and he did, just like Jesus turned the entire world upside down through His Fathers Holy Spirit……..It could be the same today……..Just give me ten men and this idea of “Separation of Church and State” would be literally wiped out at its roots.
Are there ten men in America today who would take up their cross and go to work for Jesus?
I don’t know, but know one thing, God is still right here….My what a joyous day that will be when we will be able to push back the forces of the ACLU and industry of pornography……God’s spirit will sweep across this country like no one has ever seen, and the next day, you wake up and it’s like a clear winter day with sun shining brightly and fresh white snow on the ground…..You will actually see the Spirit of God moving in peoples lives, and there’s nothing that will stop it….because the darkness cannot reside in the light.
33. cam | July 28th, 2008 at 12:27 am
Neocon,
You feel out of place here? You are starting to look down right left wing. Now I’ll wait for you answer on my previous post.
34. neocon | July 28th, 2008 at 8:52 am
js,
Your soap box is rather high. Nobody forced those men to sleep with those women. Nobody told those men not to use birth control, and evidently those men did not know those women too well. So your desperate, and immature attempt to paint the woman as the main culprit is just wrong, and will continue to perpetuate the problem you think you care so much about.
cam,
I am done explaining things to you. You’re currently too ignorant to debate. Gow up a little, gain a little more experience and knowledge and then maybe you can run with the big dogs.
35. Some Assembly Required | July 28th, 2008 at 9:27 am
Neocon, I honestly never thought I’d say this but I agree with you 100% on this issue. My personal opinion on part of the reason why men are not held responsible is the double standard society seems to impose. Men who sleep around are viewed as people to look up and aspire to, whereas woman are looked as sleazy and dirty. It really is beyond me how ‘Pimp’ or ‘Player’ can be deemed as a compliment. Someone needs to invent a derogatory but catchy word for men that is the equivalent of ’slut’ or ‘whore’ for women.
I’ve had some bad experiences when it comes to marriage, my parents are divorced as are the majority of my friends. Needless to say I do not think I will ever marry. I’d rather just remain common law. That way if the woman and I ever split theres less paper work at least. Granted, that may change if she were to get pregnant.
I do wish your daughter all the best and hope she finds herself lucky enough to be in a long lasting marriage. I must say though, it’s fairly refreshing and ironic to know that you take somewhat of a liberal stance when it comes to your daughters happiness. I find it ironic because when/if I have a daughter I will be anything but liberal when it comes to her sex life. Sure I’ll make sure shes educated but she won’t be getting the key to her chastity belt until she’s at least 21. heh.
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37. js | July 28th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
why do you evade the issue neo?
is that cowardice?
38. js | July 28th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
“Let them first consider how easily this course of action could open wide the way for marital infidelity and a general lowering of moral standards”
This hits it dead on.
2nd sentence. Its true.
39. neocon | July 28th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
SAR,
I trust my daughter immensely, and she has earned trhat trust. I am very proud of her and sometimes wonder how I got so lucky.
I agree with you 100% that there needs to be stigmatized words for men, on the par with slut and whore. I despise men that shirk their fatherly duties and honestly place that problem at the forefront of societal ills. Men need to step up, take responsibility and teach their children right from wrong.
js,
Take your sanctimonious self and go away. Or better yet, look at his issue objectively and not through your righteous, religious agenda.
I had stated in an earlier thread that religion is the main stumbling block between man and God, and I think this issue clarifies that stance.
40. Casper | July 28th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
neocon,
I have to compliment you on the well thought out, well written posts you have presented on this thread. This is one area that you and I have a great deal od agreement.
41. neocon | July 28th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Thanks Casper,
I think it’s the Montanan in me.
42. Jeremiah | July 28th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
I had stated in an earlier thread that religion is the main stumbling block between man and God
NEOCON,
Well, God’s Words states clearly how this issue should be maintained…..it’s not complicated at all, but we can say a number of things to try and justify fornication and adultery all we want…and one of the main things that I find that has really been troublesome is the fact that over 50,000,000 million unborn children have become the target for justification to continue in their sin. They don’t want anything that would get between them and their sexually adventurousness….and is the meme that the left has consistently spread throughout this country, “If it feels good, do it”. But pre-meditatedly murdering their children is an action that they take to escape their responsibilties to life and all the greatness that God has taken to give it to them. How shameful that people could be so heartless, and even further not knowing the implications to their very own soul.
God help America!
43. js | July 28th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
sorry neo
im not going away
its not religion that causes immoral behavior
and i didnt quote any bible reference either
you are are blind to the obvious because you cant see any relationship between birth control, abortion and sexual behavior unrestrained by moral behavior…
in a nut shell…get your head out of the sand…when i stand on the side of right….you can blow hard all day long and not come up with a good excuse to lie about it…
44. js | July 28th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
so why dont you defend your “moral illusion” when i posted the percentage of abortions above neo? dont you have the resources or the gall to say 47% of abortions occur in your little “window” of maturity doesnt show exactly what i said it shows???? can you fault the pope for stating the obvious and call it religion, and still run away from facts 50 years later that certify what he said was true? do you really think hopping into a relationship without commitment is such a great thing for our kids to enumerate as a good example in society..so much that you would cut off your nose to spite your face….
45. neocon | July 28th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
Sorry Jeremiah,
I just don’t do well with Holy rollers. I prefer the way Jesus dealt with problems; understanding, teaching and demonstrating, not the sermon from the mount.
I also abhor abortion, but I also want to make practical steps to correct the problem and your soap box sermon will not resonate, nor will it resolve the problem.
Same with you js, preach all you want about your sanctimonious positions, I will deal with reality.
46. Some Assembly Required | July 28th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
“its not religion that causes immoral behavior”
So what would you call honor killings? How about Suicide bombers? Some of the most ‘immoral’ acts in history have been done under the veil of religion. js, This statement has to be the most delusional statement I have heard come from you.
You need to step into the 21st century. Children are going to have sex in highschool. In fact, it’s common now that if you do not have sex in highschool you become somewhat of a social leper. (I think you already know from experience. Call it a hunch.) Neocon has hit the nail on the head here. Education is the solution. Educate the kids of what a baby will bring. Show them how to use proper birth control and eliminate some of the incentives for women to get pregnant; then watch the number of abortions drop significantly.
47. Some Assembly Required | July 28th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
39. neocon | July 28th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
I agree men definately need to step up. On the flip side there are men who are single fathers because to woman has bailed. It is more common for that man to leave, but a$$hole fathers cannot be called out while ignoring b$%%h mothers. I guess when it boils down to it some people just are not fit to be parents. It’s too bad they can’t be weeded out and sterilized. All fantasy aside, I think true family values have been lost somewhere along the way. I don’t mean church every sunday, I mean sunday dinners and open lines of communication with family members. It seems as if people have forgotten that the only true constant in life is family.
You are lucky to have that kind of trust and relationship with your daughter. Some years ago I had a falling out with my parents. A couple years went by when it was touch and go between us, but thankfully we managed to work our problems out. I will say this, trust is one of the hardest things to regain once it is lost.
What did you think of Obama’s father’s day speech?
48. neocon | July 28th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
I thought Obama’s fathers day speech hit the mark in re: to personal responsibility, but I still think Cosby, Juan Williams and Thomas Sowell are way out in front on this issue.
49. Some Assembly Required | July 28th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
I’d agree with that as well. Except for Cosby, there’s just something about him I personally do not like. Regardless of political afflictions, I think Obama’s speech did more for this issue simply because of the play it received.
50. js | July 28th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
wow
if you can say reality makes immorality moral…then you really have your compass screwed up…ill just chalk it up to cowardice that you refuse to debate the issue…there is nothing sanctimonious about the truth….nor the defense of social ill’s that perpetuate the murder of 50 million human beings…
51. js | July 28th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
The whole this rests on moral consistency…because if birth control were only used for its intended purpose…and those who use it maintained the moral code, keeping sexual relations in marraige instead of in the back seat of the family SUV or as a pursuit as if it were a sport…then that would be consistent and the morality of it all would never come into question…however…thats not how humans behave…given the license to pursue lust and to devolve sex into sport…resulting in behavior patterns that dip well below moral behavior…in all age groups (no, 25 and up are not excused, they just get away with it more and are better able to hide it)…it drove women to abortions….instead of controllig sexual accidents…contraceptives brought about just the opposite…by removing responsibility…through the lack of consequence…resulting in 50 million abortions…the execution of 50 million human beings in America…for convenience….
thats not sanctimonious….its the truth…it has nothing to do with religion…so stop acting like a flake bag neo…
52. Jeremiah | July 28th, 2008 at 9:56 pm
NEOCON,
LOL! No “holy roller” here, bud. Just giving you the straight up truth.
But I will say this, this country could use people who will allow the Lord to use them to start getting the message out……Of course, one could get arrested for telling the truth….but that’s alright, the Apostle Paul and just about everyone of Jesus’ disciples were imprisoned for preaching the truth and it just made the Saints preach even harder……I know that I would give my last ounce of blood to see an end to the ACLU…the NAMBLA……the GLESN, the GLBT, AUFSOCAS, the American Atheists Association……all of those hatemongers, I would give my last ounce of blood to see them driven out of this country, and never returned. They are a poison to humanity.
And liberalism, Oh boy, I’d like to see it plundered like nothing else.
53. pelirrojo | July 28th, 2008 at 10:18 pm
js, whats there to debate? he already said he doesn’t like abortion, and already said he’d like to deal with reality (eg chip away at it piece by piece).
Personally I don’t want it banned completely, just made very rare. First step there is to teach young people (no i didn’t say kids under 5, young being teenagers and early 20’s) about contraception (if more people used it, there’d be less reason for abortions).
54. Jeremiah | July 28th, 2008 at 10:29 pm
he’d like to deal with reality
I sure hope he finds it.
55. Jeremiah | July 28th, 2008 at 10:30 pm
And you too, Pelirrojo
56. js | July 28th, 2008 at 11:20 pm
its about as close to reality as you can get pel…
its a social illness…cause and effect…cut and dried…indisputable…
some dream about accepting immorality and making it righteous by compromising morals is splitting hairs…because you cant get good fruit out of a bad tree….and face it…the tree has already killed 50 million innocent human beings…
its pretty simple for sure
contraception+teenagers and young adults=risk free sex
teaching our chilldren a lack of understanding does not cure the problem, because while 47% of the abortions go to women over 25, the other 53% go to those from 12 to 24
50 million times we have learned that contraceptives are not the answer….
the only cure is abstinance
period.
57. neocon | July 28th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
js and Jeremiah,
Both of you are expecting what has never been realized, and never will be: a man without sin. Jesus walked with prostitutes and listened and taught. He never lectured and he didn’t judge. He educated and lead by example.
We are at a place now in society where we need to really begin to fight the battles we can win; limit the proliferation of porn, raise the level of education and hold people accountable. Those are practical strategies that can be done and that’s what I mean by realty.
Yours and js’s approach of judgemental lecturing will get you no where, and it’s the results that we want, right?
Or do you feel better lecturing from the soap box?
58. Jeremiah | July 29th, 2008 at 12:13 am
limit the proliferation of porn, raise the level of education and hold people accountable.
NEOCON,
HOMERUN!
Although, a little off on the pornography issue - We need to obliterate the proliferation of pornography.
Education is another issue, where, children need moral lessons to go along with their basic learning of skills to help them reach for the top. They need told less lies as well, like, “Humans came from “monkey”.
They don’t need to have a demonstration on how a condom goes over a cucumber, how it’s done and other such non-sense.
Children need to be taught that sex is meant for marriage. They need to be taught early how to love and care for life the little baby that they’ve created……Now, this may sound like lecturing, but what you’ve got to remember is that your talking to young people that will lead us into the future……and we don’t need a bunch of hellians who don’t know what it actually means to love. Children need to be taught how to love and care for people and the especially the tiniest among us. If you don’t teach them, then you can’t expect the future to hold anything of any promise to you or your nation. The children are where it all starts. They are the building blocks for society. And you can either raise them to be destructive or to be constructive, and you must always start off on the principle or cornerstone which is LIFE, and what is Life, through Jesus Christ and His Holy and Precious Word.
You see, we have responsibility not to ourselves but to whom? To Almighty God who breathes the breath of Life into us. Amen?
Now, I’m not here to preach to you, lecture you, or anything like that, I’m here as a friend to share the truth with you….and I’ll not force you….it’s your’s if you want it, or you can reject it as if you never even heard it. But I’ll tell you one thing, society at large, I believe would be drastically more well off if they heard more of the Bible’s message and less of the Liberal propaganda coming out of Hollywood and the elitist liberal Media (such as PBS) who consistently are pronounced in their spreading of degenerate material that is the principle downfall of the youth, but not only the liberal Media but to a greater degree in our schools who are wreaking the literal destruction of the USA filling childrens minds with stuff that will cause us great pains in the future if not stopped, well, you can see what it has already done to America thus far…not good to say the least. It’s going to take Supreme Court action…but gettin’ somebody in there that actually stands for something is the greatest difficulty or barrier that we face at the present, and it’s no wonder, after 60 some years of liberalism you have Supreme Court Judges that are direct descendants of the cult that is liberalism.
It will be time consuming to say the least, in getting our country back to its roots that was the nobility of George Washington’s day. Hearts and minds put together in the Love of Christ striving for the same goal and you will see things happen like those of the century mark age, which remember the days when it was God who blessed them with abundance and revival filled the land. :)
59. cam | July 29th, 2008 at 1:35 am
Neocon,
Oh infallible one. There is very little YOU can explain to me. Though you profess omnipitence your logic betrays you. I’ll admit when I missed a point. But you will stick by whatever it is you say even if you are proven off the mark a dozen different ways.
60. js | July 29th, 2008 at 7:49 am
thats presumptious neo….i dont think i ever posted anything about a man without sin….what i do want is a government not hearding society by diminishing the values that our fathers and forefathers held true…by enabling immoral behavior in our youth through thier affirmative action programs and lies about homosexuals and evolution…
face it…sex ed should be more about medical science instead of social science…and funding condom give away programs does not promote abstinance….
programs like glsed that our courts side with in middle and high schools have nothing to do with education and corrupt society as a whole…by poisoning the thoughts of children…
abortion is not a right….a person has a right to say no to sex…the natural consequnce of sex is children…government has no right to legalize the murder of children….whose inherent right to life it does not recognize…