Seems that the UN is so doing:
New York, Nov 19, 2007 (CNA).- The president of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, Cardinal Renato Martino, said this week the recent resolution adopted by the UN General Assembly calling for an international moratorium on the application of the death penalty is a “relevant step” in the defense of life, although it only has “symbolic value” since it is not “an agreement that binds countries.”
The resolution, which was supported by 99 countries, with 52 voting against and 33 abstaining, “is very important, and it is gratifying that so many Catholic organizations have worked for this and thus they have the right to be pleased.”
“I am very happy,” Cardinal Martino said. “I was the Holy See’s representative to the United Nations for more than 16 years and during that time I collaborated in two efforts during the 90’s to achieve this moratorium: we worked very hard and we were discouraged when the votes were tallied, the project had to be withdrawn because the numbers were just not there. This time the numbers are there and for this reason I am very pleased.”
Mario Marazzit, a spokesman for the Sant’Egidio Community, said, “The vote is historic, because it is very strong moral pressure and it points to a standard that has become important for all of the countries that do not use the death penalty yet.” He said he was hopeful the resolution would have an impact on the laws in individual countries.
One does question the actual motivations of the UN in lining up against the death penalty – but more importantly, it allows us to ask the basic question of the anti-death penalty forces worldwide: Why do you want the death penalty banned?
I know, it seems obvious – because killing people isn’t the answer. The problem is that most people who want to spare the lives of guilty criminals are also in favor of ending the life of innocent, unborn children. This is especially true of the UN, which has essentially taken the pro-abortion fanatic line on how available abortion should be – on demand. If killing is wrong, then abortion is wrong – but that seems to be something the anti-death penalty movement almost entirely misses.
As for me, it is easy – I’m opposed to abortion, and the death penalty. The reason I’m opposed to it is because one can never be 100% sure of what a person deserves to have happen to him. Certainly, the guilt of those on death row is not in doubt – the mental gymnastics some people go through to try and claim that an innocent man is on death row are rather bizarre, and pathetic. But even the guilty have a claim upon our mercy – a small claim, to be sure, but still very real. I don’t support an outright ban on the death penalty because there may always be that circumstance where it is the only thing we can do in the name of justice, but on the whole I would see these men and women sentenced to a life in prison – and really in prison. I’ve got a prison regimen ready for them which will make them wish they were dead…unless, of course, they start to think about it and understand the debt they owe; such people will come to love their regimen as the basis of their path to salvation…those who don’t get it will, then, get nothing but misery, and that is just.
I doubt that most anti-death penalty people can give a strong defense of their view – they can mostly shout slogans and appeal to emotion, but I’ve yet to see a carefully reasoned justification for ending the death penalty except by those opponents who are also of the Culture of Lfe, and thus also opposed to abortion, infanticide, assisted suicide and euthanasia. During the 2000 campaign you migth recall how the left tried to cook up a death penalty case to embarras then-governor Bush – Bush couldn’t actually commute the man’s sentence (per Texas law), but that didn’t matter…the “heartless Republican” narrative was too dear to the left to allow facts to get in the way. So, they raised up a death row inmate as an exemplar of what is wrong with the death penalty. The only trouble was that even if the man wasn’t guilty of the particular crime he was eventually executed for, he had done enough horrid things (rape, attempted murder, etc) to make one commentor coldly, but accurately, note that he could choke in hell on the irony of it all if he was, indeed, innocent of the murder.
In the unwillingness of most death penalty opponents to embrace the full Culture of Life is their fundamental weakness – but this weakness, in and of itself, would be surmountable if the anti-death penalty people would stop trying to generate sympathy for entirely unsympathetic people. If anyone really wants to seriously curtail and eventually end the application of the death penalty in the United States, the first step would be to reform our prisons to the point where life in prison really meant life in prison – and was under a rule of extraordinary strictness and austerity. The argument will always be lost as long as killers are portrayed as victims – portray them as they are, insist upon their punishment, and appeal to the sense of mercy of the American people – that would be the way to take a stand against the death penalty in the United States.
Blogs For Victory 
For me, the choice is simple…I am against abortion, and for the death penalty.
I used to work on Death Row, in both the men’s prison as well as the women’s prison, with more than 180 death row inmates. I had the “pleasure” of working with the inmates (not as a custody officer, but rather as part of the medical staff) and was able to get to know them after they were judged…after they were getting the treatment they may have needed on the street…after they were clean from the crack, they coke, the smack, or any other drug they may have been on. In saying that, these are not excuses for behavior…I tend to be a bit more “Old Testament” when it comes to punishment for crimes.
When did mercy come into play when they were raping, molesting, robbing, mugging, and ultimately murdering? I’ll go one step further than being pro-death penalty…I think we need to expand the use for those who molest our children. As a matter of fact, five states have my praise…Florida, South Carolina, Louisiana, Montana, and Oklahoma. These states have passed laws allowing the use of the death penalty for those convicted of a second or greater offense of sexual crimes to those under the age of 14. I think we all need to stand up and let those who commit crimes against our kids know that this will not be acceptable and you will be held accountable.
Ricorun,
I know you addressed this to coulterfan, so i hope you don’t mind if I take a crack at it.
“would you be against limited use of waterboarding — or any other technique for that matter — if it could be conclusively demonstrated that the technique in question had the greatest possibility of procuring evidence from a high profile detainee in a time-critical situation?”
I would want to see some pretty good evidence before I would even consider using waterboarding or any other technique. The problem at this point is that no one has presented any evidence that it works better or even as well than other other less strenuous techniques. In fact, there is a lot of evidence that people being waterboarded will say anything to get it to stop, whether it is true or not.
coulter,
I have seen your posts enough to know exactly where you stand. And your refernce to Bush further demonstrates you BDS.
So I feel 100% confident claiming that your “moral highground” comment is a complete joke. As is your offer of a debate. It’s impossible to debate someone, like yourself, who simply regurgitates tired old talking points and baseless metaphors. For example waterboarding; which has been applied to THREE combatants in six years.
Liberals are such a waste of time.
Would you then allow abortion under these ‘limited’ circumstances? If you could have aborted Bin Laden before he was born, for instance, would you? – coulter
coulter,
you just proved my point about your inability to debate.
neocon,
It is you who is unable to debate and a complete waste of time. Anyone who would STILL be a neocon in spite of all evidence that the policies are fatally flawed is SERIOUSLY lacking the ability to think critically.
I actually have never regurgitated talking points, unlike you who seem to never stray from them. One of the primary strategies when you have no logical basis for your argument is always to personally attack.
I know it’s hard for you to grasp, but my hypothetical question was the exact same formulation as the hypothetical question I answered.
As another example (assuming you really care to understand)- I am against the legalization of heroin. However, if heroin was the ONLY WAY my terminally sick mother was not in agonizing pain, you can be sure as hell that I would procure it for her- regardless of the consequences.
So, what about it? If you had the opportunity to abort Bin Laden, Hitler, Stalin, etc . . . would you do it? Or would you wait until after they killed thousands?
When it comes to the death penalty or torture, why don’t Christians ask themselves:
What would Jesus do?
If you honestly think Jesus himself would torture or kill a person no matter how guilty, then go ahead. What DID you think He meant when he said, ‘Let he who is without sin cast the first stone’ and ‘You have heard it said ‘an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth’, but I tell you this: If your brother should smite your left cheek, turn to him your right.’
Coulter,
We had a very, very long discussion on the subject of waterboarding…I think it went to more than 300 comments. Did you miss it?
If you want my short answer – there is never any justification for inflicting needless pain on any human being. What the North Vietnamese did to our troops at the Hanoi Hilton – for years – was the inflicting of needless pain…just torturing them in order to try and obtain bogus confessions of war crimes which the NV could then use in propaganda broadcasts no one would believe. What we do in Gitmo, if it does inflict pain, is to obtain information about acts which by their very nature are inhuman and outside of any standard of human conduct.
Also, no matter what else eventuates, when US troops are captured they will be abused – such is the nature of our world these days. Oddly enough, the last time a nation treated captive Americans decently was during World War Two, and it was the Nazis who treated our boys relatively decently (though, even there, serious abuses did occur). We can rely upon it from now until Doomsday that any captured Americans will be treatly badly, at best, and horrifically, at worst. And this is no matter what we do, so there’s no need to worry about whether or not how we treat captive enemies will adversely effect captive Americans. Its a moot point.
I’ll be honest with both of you, that is probably the most ridiculous “hypothetical” I have ever seen…and I have a lot of kids, so I have see a lot of “what if’s”. There are a lot of things that I don’t “grasp” coming from the liberal side, coulterfan. One being how is that statement not a personal attack? Neocon…you should know better than to skinny dip with snapping turtles. Remember: You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar, assuming you want to catch flies.
Coulter,
Now, back to the subject of the thread.
What would Jesus do?
Act in much greater wisdom and mercy then we are capable of – he is God and the salvation of mankind; we’re just people, and we are a Fallen people, at that. We’re not going to get it completely right as long as this world lasts.
In all of my life, in all that I have read and heard, I’ve never come across a better argument against the death penalty than that which Tolkien inserted into the Lord of the Rings:
That is my view of it, and why I’m opposed to the death penalty – because I’m not wise enough to see all ends. Certainly, there are some who will essentially force us to kill them in defense of our selves or our society – but I will not deal out death in judgement.
The problem, I think, with liberal/left opponents of the death penalty is that, being of materialist and determinist philosophy (even if they don’t know it), death is viewed as the very worst thing that can happen to a person. As a Christian, I know that the very worst thing which can happen to me is not my death, but my damnation. Life is good, and our natural business lies in prolonging our life by wise courses of action – but there are many things worse than death.
To be a dishonest person – relentlessly and without remorse – that is worse than death. To be a person without hope – that is worse than death. To be consumed by envy and hatred, that is worse than death.
I want to live, but I want to live forever – and that means I must disdain death here on this world, and be ever willing to surrender this life.
>>Also, no matter what else eventuates, when US troops are captured they will be abused – such is the nature of our world these days. Oddly enough, the last time a nation treated captive Americans decently was during World War Two, <<
This doesn’t mean that we should be as bad as our enemies. And, contrary to what you assert (and VERY surprisingly), Lynch and the others captured by Saddam’s army claim that they were treated well. I think that this was only due to intense fear- the Iraqis KNEW that they were going to lose and didn’t want to face the possibility of war crimes. Still, facts are facts and there was no evidence of torture or mistreatment towards American POWs during the (short) Iraq War against Saddam’s military. I know you’re going to jump all over me, but do yourselves a favor and RESEARCH what Lynch said about her treatment as a POW.
At the least, shouldn’t we set an example to the rest of the world what humane treatment of prisoners means?
What WOULD Jesus do? You think He would condone torture?
Redneck:
I agree. Hypotheticals are NOT valid arguments. Still, they can be kind of interesting and provoke thought.
“The problem at this point is that no one has presented any evidence that it works better or even as well than other other less strenuous techniques.” Casper
And yet after 2 minutes Khalid Sheikh Mohammed coiuldn’t stop talking…sounds pretty effective to me.
“In fact, there is a lot of evidence that people being waterboarded will say anything to get it to stop, whether it is true or not. ” Casper
So since there’s LOT’S of evidence as you say can you provide some for us all, or is this more leftists pacifist bluster?
coulter,
Anybody who claims: “Bush and his supporters” have damaged the reputation of the US obviously lacks critical thinking skills and instead regurgitates the narrative du jour of the left. And that is what you continuously do. In fact you proceed to meme another liberal deflection tactic “what would Jesus do?”
I am convinced you wouldn’t have the slightest notion of what Jesus would do and furthermore, why would that matter to athiest liberals?
Furthermore, none of us could ever pretend to know what Jesus would do however, the following could be a hint:
Proverbs 8:1
To fear the Lord is to hate evil.
Here’s the million dollar question: Do you consider extreme Islam evil?
You proceed to perpetuate another liberal lie in claiming that the US is just as bad as our enemies, which is a complete LIE.
Apologists and relativists like yourself are the reason chaos continues. You have a lot of blood on your hands. I would repent if I were you.
redneck,
I have no interest in entertaining or befriending coulterfan. I consider he and his ilk responsible for the death and chaos around the world because of their theoretical, cocktail party approach to the worlds problems.
They have no regard for human life and suffering, and will only feign concern when it ultimately means their agenda will be furthered. They are as dishonest as the day is long.
“So since there’s LOT’S of evidence as you say can you provide some for us all, or is this more leftists pacifist bluster?”
Ok, since you brought up Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, let’s start with him.
“One CIA official cautioned that “many of Mohammed’s claims during interrogation were ‘white noise’ designed to send the U.S. on wild goose chases or to get him through the day’s interrogation session.” For example according to Michigan Rep. Mike Rogers, a former FBI agent and the top Republican on the terrorism panel of the House Intelligence Committee, he has admitted responsibility for the Bali nightclub bombing, but his involvement “could have been as small as arranging a safe house for travel. It could have been arranging finance.” Mohammed also made the admission that he was “responsible for the 1993 World Trade Center Operation”, which killed six and injured more than 1,000 when a bomb was detonated in an underground garage, Mohammed did not plan the attack, but he may have supported it. Dr. Michael Welner noted that by offering legitimate information to interrogators, Mohammed had secured the leverage to provide disinformation as well.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_Shaikh_Mohammed
Ball is in your court phnx. Prove that waterboarding is the best method of interrogation. Prove it’s better than other techniques.
After waterboarding, Sheik Mohammed offered up vary valuable information over tea.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/09/how-the-cia-bro.html
And considering that waterboarding worked in that case, which is only the third time waterboarding was used, and considering that the technique is just one of six in the US approved interrogation techniques, I would say that liberals have once again have completely overblown and over exaggerated and non-story.
Ball is in your court Casper.
I got to thinking about this today, I thought, the reason the Death Penalty is not a detterant to crime is because it is not carried out swift enough, there should be no holding period, after trial they should have a minimum of three to ten days.
I looked this up, and sure enough, King Solomon explained this–
Ecclesiasties 8:11
When the sentence for a crime is not quickly carried out, the hearts of the people are filled with schemes to do wrong.
Now, what would Jesus do?
On the Cross.
One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at Him: “aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!”
But the other criminal rebuked him.
“Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
You see, the criminal knew!
Innocent people are not to be murdered–Murder is wrong.
Obedience to the government–
Romans 13:4
For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sward for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities…
1 Timothy 1:8
We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers–and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which He entrusted to me.
Jesus very own words in favor of Capital punishment.
Rev. 13:10/second half of verse.
If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed.
So, That’s what you have to go by, is the Word of God!!
Jeremiah
neocon,
Can you prove it’s only been used three times?
Can you prove we have received valuable information each time?
I didn’t claim we did obtain valuable intel each time, and from what I have read from many sources, the technique has been used three times.
And why would anyone have to prove that it is the “best method of interrogation”. I don’t think anyone has ever made that claim either.
This is a non-story. Another red herring from the left.
I overlooked one thing. Coulter asserted in his earlier post that the Iraqis treated our prisoners well because of their fear of being charged with war crimes after their assured defeat.
When I stopped laughing I remembered Milosevic died of old age before they were even close to a verdict in the Hague. I’d be frightened to.
Coulter,
That would more be a function of lack of time – back in 1991, the US and British pilots who were captured were treated abominably. Face it – our enemies don’t live by our rules and thus will do whatever they think expedient at any given time.
And, of course we don’t become like them – but my point was that arguing against waterboarding because of what the enemy might do in response is absurd. As I said, I’m opposed to the needless infliction of pain – but if the relevant authorities fully believe that the application of stern measure will produce a beneficial result, then I will leave that prudential judgement up to them, checked of course by varied oversight, and the ultimate verdict of the American people at the ballot box.
And now you have to get into what I said when I got us back on subject.
Years ago, when I was news anchor at a small market TV station in Central California, a wire service story came through, saying, “Caryl Chessman dies in San Quentin gas chamber”.
He was the nortorious “red light killer” captured in the 1940s in Southern California; sent to trail, convicted on several counts of murder, and given the death penalty. Fifteen years later, after many appeals, he paid the price.
This story sticks in my craw, and is the main reason I believe the death penalty is not acceptable.
Since the trials of Chesman, think of the countless BILLIONS of dollars spent by taxpayers for attorney’s fees to power these hundreds of thousands of appeals for convicted killers. What a waste of money.
Add to this the numbers of times DNA has given someone, charged with a capital crime, freedom from death row.
Do away with the death penalty. Instead, give
sentences of life in prison without possibility of parole.
Notify your congressional representitive and demand the death penalty must go.
neocon,
If I remember correctly, at one point you had a couple of nephews serving in Iraq. Are they still there? Is there anything they need? I have had my students write letters to some of our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan and I could have them write more.
Of course this does two things. It gives my students more writing practice and it gives me less time to indoctrinate them. LOL
Fifteen years later, after many appeals, he paid the price.
Bad Boxer,
That’s the very reason the Death Penalty is not a deterrant to crime now, is because they hold them way too long!!
They need to shorten the trial period, 30 to 50 days maximum, and Death Row no later than 3 to 10 days after trial–
No hassle!!
Get a grip and take a bite out o’ crime!!
Jeremiah
Bad Boxer,
Please tell me that you don’t think that life instead of death will deter any appeals…I sincerely hope you are a bit more intelligent than that. If money is your argument, then do a bit of research and post how much money it costs us taxpayers to house an inmate each year. I would also be VERY interested in the number of times DNA evidence released someone from the row.