The story:
SAN ANTONIO — Senator John McCain got support on Wednesday from an important corner of evangelical Texas when the pastor of a San Antonio mega-church, Rev. John C. Hagee, endorsed Mr. McCain for president. Mr. Hagee, who argues that the United States must join Israel in a preemptive, biblically prophesized military strike against Iran that will lead to the second coming of Christ, praised Mr. McCain for his pro-Israel views.
The response:
Yesterday, Senator John McCain said he was “very honored by Pastor John Hagee’s endorsement.” The Republican presidential hopeful also called Hagee “the staunchest leader of our Christian evangelical movement,” citing the minister’s pro-Israel stance.
Catholic League president Bill Donohue addressed this today:
“There are plenty of staunch evangelical leaders who are pro-Israel, but are not anti-Catholic. John Hagee is not one of them. Indeed, for the past few decades, he has waged an unrelenting war against the Catholic Church. For example, he likes calling it ‘The Great Whore,’ an ‘apostate church,’ the ‘anti-Christ,’ and a ‘false cult system.’
Hagee, to put it mildly, is an unpleasant fellow – I went over to McCain’s website to see if there was more on this, and so far I haven’t even found it mentioned. I hope that Senator McCain will address this issue – but I am also quite confident, due to McCain’s past actions vis a vis Catholicism, that he doesn’t in any way, shape or form agree with Hagee’s views of the Catholic Church. My bet is that McCain was aware of Hagee’s staunchly pro-Israel stance, and that is what McCain was thinking of in obtaining this endorsement.
In general terms, I never engage in a fight with my brothers and sisters in Christ – and even though I view Hagee as terribly wrong, I won’t even fight him on this. I’ll pray he’ll allow God to enlighten him on the truth of these matters, but I see no profit in fighting a fellow Christian – however erring – when the whole of religion is under attack in our nation. I understand, and respect, Mr. Donohue’s position and agree that such things need to be brought up, and condemned, but in my view there is a need, also, for a careful understanding of the real stakes in 2008; Hagee’s influence is relatively small, and no matter how destructive he might be, he won’t do nearly the damage that a President Obama or a President Hillary will do.
UPDATE: Given that our lefties are trying very hard to pick a fight between McCain and Catholics over this, I think it worthwhile to bring up Catholics for McCain; there are quite a lot of my fellow Catholics who are enthusiastic backers of John McCain and this is a much stronger indicator of McCain’s views about Catholicism than the fact that the anti-Catholic Hagee endorsed him.
UPDATE: John McCain responds to the firestorm:
Yesterday, Pastor John Hagee endorsed my candidacy for president in San Antonio, Texas. However, in no way did I intend for his endorsement to suggest that I in turn agree with all of Pastor Hagee’s views, which I obviously do not.
I am hopeful that Catholics, Protestants and all people of faith who share my vision for the future of America will respond to our message of defending innocent life, traditional marriage, and compassion for the most vulnerable in our society.
Of course, it would have been better if the endorsement had never happened – but it did happen, and one can’t undo the past; meanwhile, we don’t want to alienate those followers of Hagee who are sincere, if misguided, Christians who do want what is best for America and the world. This is the best way around it all – making lemonade out of the lemons, as it were.
Blogs For Victory 
From this—as well as from the fact that he labels those who support Israel as “Zionists”—I can reasonably deduce that Southerner is anti-Israel.
When a person hates Israel, I immediately wonder if they are anti-Semite as well, as hatred of Israel is typically a cloak for underlying anti-Semitic attitudes.
I won’t pronounce Southerner an anti-Semite, however, until or unless I see him spouting hateful statements explicitly directed at Jewish people.
Kahn,
Still fulminating over the Branch Davidians and abortion instead of John McCain and John Hagee which are the actual topic here, I see. Why don’t you just come out and say that you can’t defend the senator’s egregious flip-flopping? It would save a lot of keyboard time.
As for your continuos posts labelling democrats ‘baby killers’, what do you say to the fact that a 2003 CBS News poll found that 70% of Republicans believed that abortion should either be ‘generally available’ (29%) or ‘available but with stricter limitations than now’ (41%).
In the same poll 28% of republicans said that abortion should not be permitted while 21% of democrats felt the same. That’s not a big difference and certainly does not allow you to characterize the democrats as the party of baby killers. What it does clearly show is that only a small minority of the adult US population wants abortion banned.
Clark Smith,
I am pretty sure that if you asked him, John Hagee would readily admit that he is an unapologetic zionist. Have you ever read anything this guy wrote or watched any of his videos? Do you even know what zionism is? Why does calling someone a zionist make me anti-semitic? Please explain.
And Hagee does feel we ought to back Israel in any and every attack they make on their neighbors. Again, does deploring that make me anti-semitic? Wow, all my jewish friends here in New York will be surprised to hear it. I’ll let them know the next time I’m celebrating my birthday with chopped liver and schmalz at Sammy’s on Allen street. Unlike you though, most jewish people in New York are smart enough to realize that criticizing Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians and its hyper aggressive foreign-policy does not make one an anti-semite.
No, the problem lies with intolerant, hateful, bigoted, homophobic, Bible-thumping, hatemongers who hide behind the teachings of Christ and the Bible to justify your contempt for anyone who doesn’t think, believe, or fall right in line with the Christian fundamentalist’s rhetoric.
It’s people like you, Jeremiah, that are the problem with America.
If you want to live in a society that adheres to a strict, extremist government-style theocracy, might I suggest you live In Iran.
There’s a reason why we have the Separation of Church and State in America: to keep you zealots away from our government.
73. bongoman | February 29th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
bongoman, Jeremiah is, to put it mildly, out of his f***ing mind.
McCain opposes abortion. Clinton and Obama don’t. I don’t choose MY values by reading polls. I see none of you can define the day and hour a fetus become a baby. yet you’re willing to kill it anyways. That says more about you than it does about me.
I don’t care about Hagee.
Gee Diana, melted little babies doesn’t get you mad? You must have a liberal will of iron.
And – liberals, you were not going to vote for McCain anyways, admit it. Pound sand.
Jonathan – a lot of hate in your post. Of course you think you’re right. You’re correct! But all I see is hate. It drips from every word.
And on what day and hour during pregnancy do YOU say a fetus becomes a baby? Be specific, and prove it.
Ayn Rand answers this question nicely in terms of the accrual of rights.
As explained by the Ayn Rand Institute:
Kahn,
Some things in this world occur g r a d u a l l y. There is no switch that turns life on in a foetus, however for my money life is associated with consciousness and I would not say that a three or four month foetus is capable of any degree of consciousness. According to the medical establishment consciousness begins to form in the third trimester and it is at that point that life begins in my opinion.
Where does your desire to find an exact ‘moment’ that life begins come from? This is another example of REALITY not being in accordance with your simple minded view of the world. When confronted with problems like this absolutists like you always reject reality as somehow being ‘wrong’.
We see it time and again on this blog when people continue to argue such hopeless causes as the idea that Saddam had ties to Al Qaida, or that Iraq had WMD when we invaded or that intelligent design is somehow a better explanation for how we got her than Darwinian evolution.
Ha!
Kahn, it’s Jeremiah not Jonathon who’s talking about stringing people up from trees or locking them up.
Kahn,
Senator McCain says today that he opposes abortion and wants to see Roe v. Wade overturned. He’s said differently when it suited his political needs. You can believe him on that point but that’s only because you choose to ignore his flip-flopping on that and other issues. That’s the entire point of the controversy about him and John Hagee. In 2000, Hagee’s type were named as “agents of intolerance” who were a source of “shame” for the Republican Party and America by John McCain. Today, when politics and his personal ambition demand it, he’s “very proud” of his support from someone who is an anti-Catholic religious bigot.
So, why can’t you just come on out and say it honestly and straightforwardly without trying to drag in unrelated subjects? Senator John McCain’s hypocrisy and political pandering don’t matter to you because he’s a Republican practicing hypocrisy and political pandering. It’s okay. You can do it.
And Jeremiah, just for the record, I am not a “sodomite activist”. For the record I’m happily married with two beautiful children and I take the task of parenting seriously and conscientiously.
I just don’t give a toss what another adult does consensually with another adult in the privacy of their bedroom. But, seems like you are happy to have them lynched. Terrifying.
McCain’s statement on Hagee endorsement:
“Yesterday, Pastor John Hagee endorsed my candidacy for president in San Antonio, Texas. However, in no way did I intend for his endorsement to suggest that I in turn agree with all of Pastor Hagee’s views, which I obviously do not.
“I am hopeful that Catholics, Protestants and all people of faith who share my vision for the future of America will respond to our message of defending innocent life, traditional marriage, and compassion for the most vulnerable in our society.”
YMMV
Kahn,
At the very moment of conception is the point the baby begins to grow.
The problem is the lefts definition of “worth,” you know it’s like, the child even though it’s not fully grown is somehow “does not” have intrinsic worth compared to a child outside the womb.
So you see, they define an unborn child comparable to dirt, trash, waste what have you, and that’s the level of depravity that we find on the left, the problem being that there are those on the right who do also, and John McCain is among them.
He is for embryonic stem cell research, if you’re for ESCR you have to be for abortion, because it takes an unborn child to carry out ESCR. So, not a question about his stances on life there. And even if he would appoint more Conservatives Judges who would craft a Human Life Amendment would he sign it into law so that it would be illegal for all states (the preferable route), or would he allow some to save and others to murder? The ten million dollar question. He is for homosexual marriage.
True Conservative principles to me, embody a man who will uphold traditional values, not giving sway to the enormous amount of garbage that the homosexual activists are trying to shove down everyones throat by way of hate “crimes” laws, some hate crimes have already been carried out – for example – in Philadelphia the Repent America group was arrested and sent to jail for sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ with them and speaking out against the act of homosexuality, by a militant homosexual group – and that’s what it’s coming to all across America if people do not wake up now and fight back.
There’s really no way out at this point, we are in debt about 2 Trillion dollars, because the government decided that they would step in to the lives of the small business owner and tax them to death, special interest groups, OCEA, Entitlements medicare, medicaid, Welfare, food stamps, massive infrastructure worth billions and billions of dollars – and the people will say – “Where did it go?” Just ask your State Senator – there names are all over them.
What’s going to happen if Hillary or Barack gets it for President, when they want to add all these other entitlements including the ones we’ve already got? I’ll tell ya … the bottom is going to fall out of the economy, and millions will be out of jobs.
There’s only way America will get out of this mess, and it’s not going to be through no President, it’s going to take a recommittment to Jesus Christ and thinking about their own situation…maybe not even then.
The main thing is, we need to keep our freedom of speech, we can’t allow the sodomites to take this away…so speak out!
–Jeremiah–
Take a couple of days off and another Lefty agitator pops up, this time the very snarky ‘southerer’. The style is very familiar—no doubt a few more hostile posts rabidly supporting radical position will ring a bell as to southerner’s last identity.
There aren’t a lot of radicals posting here, just a few recycled ones. And the rhetoric is getting goofier and goofier—and more hostile. Such as this gem from southerner, to js: “It sounds to me like you’d be more at home living in Taleban-era Afghanistan, not the good ‘ol US of A.”
Get real. We have seen the anti-religionists whine and carp and moan and groan about “theocracy” for the longest time here, and it is always bushwa.
The Jefferson letter is another red herring. Ol’ Tom was generally considered to be a pretty outspoken guy, not a shy and delicate flower easily intimidated by his peers. He was outspoken, upfront, and said what he meant.
Not only was he NOT the kind of guy to allow a strong opinion to be overridden by his fellow Constitution-writers, there is absolutely no evidence that the possibility of trying to create a “wall” between church and state was ever even discussed or debated during the drafting of the document.
No, all of the history connected with the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, & the Bill of Rights show two things very clearly.
One is that the Founding Fathers all believed in a Supreme Being of one sort or another, Who created us all and from whom all freedoms originate, Whose acknowledgment and guidance were essential to the forming and continuation of this nation;
And that they absolutely did not want any religion to ever have the kind of connection to government which would allow it to restrict freedom of worship in any way.
So, being the kind of guys who were very specific about what they wanted in the Constitution and how they phrased it, they wrote that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
It very clearly does NOT address whether or not any religion may have, or express, any policitical opinion. The intent was to keep the government out of religion, not religion out of government.
These guys were very smart. They knew perfectly well how to include a phrase which would keep religion out of government, yet they did not include one. On the contrary, their writings, separately and jointly, throughout their lives, officially and unofficially, made mulitple references to God and religion as integral to the foundation, creation, and survival of the United States.
In all of their writings, this one sentence of Jefferson’s is THE ONLY ONE that could possibly be construed to say that the two, goverment and religion, should be kept apart and separate. And these guys wrote LOTS of letters.
They wanted freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion.
And the opinion of an individual for or against any poltical candidate is hardly the stuff of “theocracy”. The 1st amendment not only guarantees freedom of religion, it guarantees freedom of speech.
Take it or leave it, like him or not. It’s irrelevant. Trying to link McCain to any kind of anti-Catholicism or any other anti because a nut who is against a lot of things happens to endorse him is pure folly.
If McCain had a history of being anti-Catholic, or of being a religious zealot, or of personally adhering to a religion or church which advocated such things, that would be different. It would be a statement that he, himself, held these views—-and that would be something to consider when thinking of whether or not to vote for him.
He just said thank you to someone who supports him.
How about addressing the pros or cons of McCain based on ISSUES—ditto for Obama and Clinton. Just for a change of pace…..not as much fun as the Politics of Personal Destruction but a lot more productive.
Jeremiah: “we are in debt about 2 Trillion dollars”
Nothing to do with Iraq? Was meant to cost $2 billion – gonna end up costing $3 TRILLION.
So Almiranta, let me ask you a simple question. Do you support John McCain for the presidency?
Cause I seem to remember you makng a post back when Huckabee was in contention that you would NEVER vote for John McCain to be your president. Am I wrong on that?
By the way, do you think anyone actually reads your posts?
Michael,
Of course, the two situations are not even remotely comparable because Senator McCain has appeared multiple times on stage with John Hagee and has been very vocal in how happy he is to have Hagee’s endorsement and Senator Obama has never appeared with Louis Farrakhan, never sought any kind of endorsement from Farrakhan and has rejected Farrakhan’s endorsement. However, let’s just imagine the reaction here if the situation and statement were reversed.
Imagine that the Obama campaign had released this text:
Would everyone at Blogs For Victo(r)y have said, “Fine. Nothing more to see here. Let’s all move on.” Uh, no.
The blunt fact is that Senator McCain is still embracing a man who is, in the words of Ann Althouse, a “raving anti-Catholic”. There’s no way to candy coat it. It is politically expedient for John McCain to not just approve of but to actively court the approval of a religious bigot.
You wouldn’t approve of it with a Democrat, but many of you absolutely approve of it so long as it’s a Republican. Oops, it’s a Republican flip-flopper. Quick, everyone move along here because we absolutely don’t want to see this willingness to be whoever the political moment demands you to be. The only question now is what’s going to be the next belief Senator McCain is willing to sacrifice for his ambitions.
Jeremiah-
Last Friday Rush was saying how the Christians were an embarassment to the GOP. I sure hope the GOP don’t start compromising and embracing abortion, ect…
Diana Powe:
I did not set out to equate what Obama did to what McCain did. They are not equal. I simply passed on what he said, since noone had mentioned in the comments. I thoroughly agreed with and applauded what Obama did with his unwanted endorsement and I wish McCain would do something similar. But he did let it be known that he is not endorsing Hagee; its the other way around. And he did say there is much of what Hagee preaches that he does not agree with. Its a good start. One more thing to consider is that McCain has the nomination sewed up and Obama does not. McCain will win easily in Texas with or without Hagee’s endorsement. Obama could not afford to have any perceived affiliation with Farrakahn lest he lose votes big time, possibly the nomination as well. I’m certain Hillary would have made hay of that.
In a democracy, is a candidate limited to only accept votes from those with whom he/she agrees? How far do we take it? McCain took it far enough. Obama took it further. Their situations are vastly different. Why would one think their responses would be the same?
Southerner,
Shall we try the Wikipedia definition of Zionism?:
Unless you define a specific type of Zionism, I’ll operate under the definition cited most succinctly in the wiki quote above: “Zionism” is generally considered to mean support for Israel as a Jewish nation state.
What I call being pro-Israel, you call Zionism. I feel Israel is justified in defending itself (yes, its very existence) as it has; you feel Israel has been brutish toward neighbors who have done nothing worthy of anything approaching harsh reprisal.
From the best I can figure, you reckon those who support Israel do so at all events, and at all costs.
The vast majority of those who support Israel, do so because they believe Israel is in the right, not because Israel must be supported whether the actions of Israel are right or wrong.
Am I correct in concluding that you feel Israel is a mean, nasty aggressor that wages (as you call it) a “hyper aggressive foreign-policy” against comparatively peaceful Palestinian neighbors?
As far as I’m concerned, Israel has been very measured in its response to a “hyper aggressive” Palestinian terror-culture that’s certifiably hell-bent upon the annihilation of Israel.
If the Palestinians had the military advantages over Israel that Israel has over the Palestinians, do you doubt for one second that the Palestinians would waste a moment in blotting Israel from the map?
How then do you take the side of Palestinians when they would—had they the ability—make Israeli foreign policy look quiescent by comparison?
You ask how I could support Hagee. I never said anything about supporting Hagee, I just took issue with you bagging on Israel.
I will say this, however, that when you say, “[Hagee] is […] a religious wacko on the same plane as the Taleban were religious wackos,” you’ve succumbed to hyperbole in a way that makes you sound as unhinged as the Hagee quotes you cite in comment #6.
Hagee has put out some decent sermons about the military, Israel, Islamic Jihad, Even our President G.W. Bush. Some of Hagee’s material is excellent and some will put you to sleep. Many churches give that sales pitch that they are the true church. And point at why the other churches are not as good. just like anything else car makers will claim their models are the best.
I have been to many different churches and the History of all of them start with the Catholic church. The apostale Peter being the First, so that goes back over 2000 yrs. The Catholic church has the actual artifacts from the cruxifiction, I have seen some of them. Pieces of the cross, the nails. In the vactican they have the “Shroud of Turin” the actual burial cloth Christ was wrapped in before he rose from the dead, and went back into the city to see everyone, that seen him brutally murdered three days earlier.
I have alot of respect for the Catholic Church, the first 1500 years after Christ’s Resurrection the Catholic Church was the only church. About 500 years ago the Lutheran Church split off and after that Baptist, ect..