The story:
SAN ANTONIO — Senator John McCain got support on Wednesday from an important corner of evangelical Texas when the pastor of a San Antonio mega-church, Rev. John C. Hagee, endorsed Mr. McCain for president. Mr. Hagee, who argues that the United States must join Israel in a preemptive, biblically prophesized military strike against Iran that will lead to the second coming of Christ, praised Mr. McCain for his pro-Israel views.
The response:
Yesterday, Senator John McCain said he was “very honored by Pastor John Hagee’s endorsement.” The Republican presidential hopeful also called Hagee “the staunchest leader of our Christian evangelical movement,” citing the minister’s pro-Israel stance.
Catholic League president Bill Donohue addressed this today:
“There are plenty of staunch evangelical leaders who are pro-Israel, but are not anti-Catholic. John Hagee is not one of them. Indeed, for the past few decades, he has waged an unrelenting war against the Catholic Church. For example, he likes calling it ‘The Great Whore,’ an ‘apostate church,’ the ‘anti-Christ,’ and a ‘false cult system.’
Hagee, to put it mildly, is an unpleasant fellow – I went over to McCain’s website to see if there was more on this, and so far I haven’t even found it mentioned. I hope that Senator McCain will address this issue – but I am also quite confident, due to McCain’s past actions vis a vis Catholicism, that he doesn’t in any way, shape or form agree with Hagee’s views of the Catholic Church. My bet is that McCain was aware of Hagee’s staunchly pro-Israel stance, and that is what McCain was thinking of in obtaining this endorsement.
In general terms, I never engage in a fight with my brothers and sisters in Christ – and even though I view Hagee as terribly wrong, I won’t even fight him on this. I’ll pray he’ll allow God to enlighten him on the truth of these matters, but I see no profit in fighting a fellow Christian – however erring – when the whole of religion is under attack in our nation. I understand, and respect, Mr. Donohue’s position and agree that such things need to be brought up, and condemned, but in my view there is a need, also, for a careful understanding of the real stakes in 2008; Hagee’s influence is relatively small, and no matter how destructive he might be, he won’t do nearly the damage that a President Obama or a President Hillary will do.
UPDATE: Given that our lefties are trying very hard to pick a fight between McCain and Catholics over this, I think it worthwhile to bring up Catholics for McCain; there are quite a lot of my fellow Catholics who are enthusiastic backers of John McCain and this is a much stronger indicator of McCain’s views about Catholicism than the fact that the anti-Catholic Hagee endorsed him.
UPDATE: John McCain responds to the firestorm:
Yesterday, Pastor John Hagee endorsed my candidacy for president in San Antonio, Texas. However, in no way did I intend for his endorsement to suggest that I in turn agree with all of Pastor Hagee’s views, which I obviously do not.
I am hopeful that Catholics, Protestants and all people of faith who share my vision for the future of America will respond to our message of defending innocent life, traditional marriage, and compassion for the most vulnerable in our society.
Of course, it would have been better if the endorsement had never happened – but it did happen, and one can’t undo the past; meanwhile, we don’t want to alienate those followers of Hagee who are sincere, if misguided, Christians who do want what is best for America and the world. This is the best way around it all – making lemonade out of the lemons, as it were.
Blogs For Victory 
Let there be no mistake. Senator McCain did not just say “thank you” to someone who happened to endorse him.
On 09/20/07, John Hagee introduced Senator McCain at a rally in Charleston, South Carolina. How do we know that? The video is posted on McCain’s campaign website.
On 02/27/08, John Hagee, pastor of a church with 17,000 members, endorsed Senator McCain and the Senator stood on stage with Hagee and answered questions from the press while noting in response to a question that he was “very proud” of Hagee’s endorsement of him.
Today, Senator McCain still does not repudiate any of John Hagee’s Catholic-hating rhetoric and issues a weak statement saying that he does not “agree with all of Pastor Hagee’s views.” Is John McCain anti-Catholic? I can’t imagine that he is. However, he is certainly happy and “very proud” about the fact that an anti-Catholic is willing to give him the possibility of some politically expedient traction with people who presumably agree that being anti-Catholic is the way to be.
We know John McCain cares more about being elected than he does about his own past statements. Michael believes that the Senator has the nomination “sewed up” which just makes it even worse. If he doesn’t need Hagee’s endorsement, given that in 2000 Hagee would have been an “agent of intolerance” bringing “shame” on the Republican Party and the nation, then why is he embracing the man today? Just how many more of Senator McCain’s stated beliefs will go away during the next few weeks and months?
Eric T,
Rush has been a good voice for Conservatives for a long time, but some of the things he’s said lately I’ve not agreed with him a 100% … he made Mike Huckabee try to look like a “Liberal” in which he lost a lot of credibility with many people. But I will have to agree with him that many Christians have been an “embarassment” to the GOP … for the simple reason that they’ve joined the ranks of the secular crowd, by adopting the “Seperation of Church and State” lie. This would make them so-called “Christians.”
I don’t think anyone who proclaims Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior could uphold something so abhorrently evil as abortion and same-sex marriage, a person just can’t be and support that type of depravity.
If anything, at this point, it’s going to take people with a willingness to acknowledge that the State is their enemy when their elected officials sanction for lifestyles differentiate from the traditional family values platform.
I wish there was some way that I could get people to understand this. Some way to wake people up!
–Jeremiah–
Jeremiah: I wish there was some way that I could get people to understand this. Some way to wake people up!
How about a public lynching of them filthy sodomites as you suggested earlier? You’re a fool.
65. Sunny | February 29th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
js, where in the Constitution does it say a woman cannot decide to have an abortion?
No person shall be ……. nor be deprived of life
When a woman takes the responsibility to have sex, she has consented to create life. Its not so much that she has a right to take a human life, but that life that she created has a right to live, just like you.
Understand, the meaning of the word person under the law is “the body of a human being”.
Clark Smith:
Just yesterday we say just how ‘restrained’ Israel has been in its treatment of the Palestinians it has evicted from their rightful homes and who it is now forcing to live in occupied concentration camps on its own borders:
http://www.presstv.ir/Detail.aspx?id=45131§ionid=351020202
Israel is a simply wonderful place Clark. How could it not be, seeing that it was created by a bunch of religious terrorists (King David Hotel bombing anyone?) who drove the rightful, centuries-old inhabitants from Palestine and forced them to live in squalor on the new state’s borders. Wow, that’s a wonderful story, right up there with the story of the American Revolution (sarcasm).
I am NOT a fan of the manner in which Israel was founded Clark, nor am I fan of the disgusting way Israel has treated the Palestinians since that time (basically like livestock). Check the number of Palestinians who have died (90% of whom were innocent civillians) versus the number of Israelis in the conflict. Israel kills a large number of Palesitinians for every single casualty it receives. In short, Israel has not behaved like an honorable nation and that is why it is a global pariah. You can put this down to ‘anti-semitism’ until the cows come home. The fact is it’s because Israel consistently demonstrates no regard for Palestinian life.
Southerner wrote – “consciousness begins to form in the third trimester and it is at that point that life begins in my opinion.
Where does your desire to find an exact ‘moment’ that life begins come from? This is another example of REALITY not being in accordance with your simple minded view of the world. ”
Well, you miss he point I guess.
First: You identify “consciousness” as the defining characteristic. Does everyone agree with you on this? Some people say life begins when you could move the fetus outside the womb and sustain it.
Second: Of course you can’t identify the moment life begins. That is exactly MY point. So, when exactly should you allow an abortion and when should you deny an abortion? You say “the third trimester”. Nice arbitrary three month unit of time. So, one second before the “third trimester” is the cut-off? Two minutes into it, and forget it? You know that makes partial birth abortion murder, right? So what do you know – as I predicted you actually agree that some currently performed abortions are murder! Did you even realize you did?
My point is that you CAN’T say when life begins. Virtually no-one agrees on what characteristics to measure, nor where in the development cycle of those characteristics to decide. BUT, liberals are willing to ignore this dichotomy and kill the baby for socio-economic reasons. That is correct, isn’t it?
The arguments that support “abortion” are very similar to the arguments that supported slavery. if you don’t count the black person, or the unborn baby as “human”, you can justify all kinds of things. That’s the crux of the argument.
But even you can’t narrow it down to less than a three month period as to when the definition would shift fro “fetus, or part of the mother” to “individual human”. And you don’t use the same criteria as some other people.
But yet, you’re willing to kill.
My argument isn’t religious. My argument is based on uncertainty. I’m not willing to kill unless I KNOW it’s OK. You are.
And your side would call me ignorant and hateful and narrow for thinking like this? I say, better to not accidentally murder a person because you can’t know for sure. You say, aw crap kill it.
“…many Christians have been an ’embarassment’ to the GOP” – Jeremiah
Oh the irony…. 😉
Kahn,
Good job of keeping the topic away from the subject of the thread! Talking about the actual subject could be seriously embarrassing.
Even with modern medical technology foeti can not be sustained outside of the womb before 20 weeks Kahn. 20 weeks is the cutoff date for abortion in the US, so what’s your point?
Again, you seem to have missed EVERYTHING pointed out to you above regarding the fact that a young foetus is not a person, but a POTENTIAL person. Something tells me you never will get it. That’s your right. It doesn’t make you look very smart on these boards though.
So please spare me the how ignorant I am crap. PROVE that the “fetus you want to kill is not a human. Prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. You’d give that standard to an ax murderer, but not to a baby?
Now, as to the claims above that Hagees church should lose tax exempt status because of his endorsement of McCain. You all agree that the same treatment should be given to unions and grassroots organizations? If you don’t treat ALL tax-exempt organizations the same, isn’t that discrimination? And as far as I can tell, the ONLY tax-exempt organizations that are treated this way are religious.
So cite your current “regulations”. Regulations are bureaucratic interpretation of law, which is itself supposed to fit into the limits of the Constitution. The Constitution is there to protect the people from the government. And any rights and powers not listed there are assigned to the people.
It’s time this systemic discrimination was challenged in court.
Diana, my point is that I don’t care about Hagee because as big a wacko as he is, people who support abortion are worse. Get it?
I think prophecy is for one to admit that we can only watch for the things and not predict them. The signs will come in the order and in the appointed times, but Hagee steps over the line in his predictions, I doubt he is solidly founded there. However, since I have experienced the power and the presence of the Holy Spirit, I know that Hagee is not an agent of Satan, for the Holy Spirit does not come upon those who do the work of Lucifer.
For him to endorse Mac is not that bad, but it is not so good either. It would not be a photo opportunity for Mac to go overboard on this, but at the same time, it would be a mistake to disrespect a minister.
http://www.acwitness.org/psalm83english.html
Again, you seem to have missed EVERYTHING pointed out to you above regarding the fact that a young foetus is not a person, but a POTENTIAL person.
False.
A potential person is before sex takes place.
After sex when a sperm and egg unite, you have a person.
–Jeremiah–
“Southerner wrote – “consciousness begins to form in the third trimester and it is at that point that life begins in my opinion.”
(and thats all it is, an opinion)
Thats not a fact. Facts can be proven, they are irrefutable.
There is no way for modern medicine to determine consciousness. No test exists to determine that consciousness is not present. They can test brain activity, but they can and do not know if consciousness exists within the brain. They have certified that activity in the brain begins at about 21 days. Thats about all they can really validate as fact.
Kahn,
Yes, I get the fact that you are unwilling to acknowledge the harsh reality that Senator John McCain has cultivated and repeatedly expressed gratitude for the approval of a man that would be “a source of shame” for all Republicans, including Senator McCain, until it became politically expedient for him to do so. To that extent, John Hagee’s particular status as a “wacko”, as you put it, is irrelevant. What matters is Senator McCain’s hypocrisy and political pandering. That is the same hypocrisy and political pandering you would decry in a Democrat. Come on. Just be honest.
24 weeks, the child responds to pain. That is consciousness. The pain receptors begin to grow at 5 weeks, at 6 weeks, the unborn child responds to touch. Thats brain activity. The brain is conscious of both pain and touch. That is conscious.
An unborn child has less legal protection from feeling pain than commercial livestock.
In a slaughterhouse, a method of slaughter is deemed legally humane only if “all
animals are rendered insensible to pain by a single blow or gunshot or an electrical,
chemical, or other means that is rapid and effective, before being shackled, hoisted,
thrown, cast, or cut.” (Section 2 of the Humane Slaughter Act, 7 USC 1902).
By contrast, D&E abortions, performed as late as 24 weeks (well after the child
begins to feel pain), involve the dismemberment of the unborn child by a pair of
sharp metal forceps.(9) Instillation methods of abortion (performed even in the third
trimester) involve the replacement of up to one cup of amniotic fluid with a
concentrated salt solution, which the unborn child inhales as the salt burns her skin.
The child lives in this condition for up to an hour. In neither of these techniques is
the unborn child provided with any form of anesthesia.
Physicians testimonies.
–Jeremiah–
Well Diana, which is worse in YOUR view? Hypocrisy or organized murder?
And YOU acknowledge that unions and grass roots organizations wit tax exempt status should be treated the same as religious organizations?
And, though he let himself eventually be pressured into rejecting Farrakhan’s support, Obama did NOT do that until cornered on a televised debate. And still Farrakhan’s support is still there, isn’t it? Who is worse, Farrakhan or Hagee?
DP,
People were talking about Abraham Lincoln like that too. He mixed with a bad crowd too, the ones that wanted to end slavery. Its good to know that Liberals act like that. Predictability.
Southerner – right or wrong, you must admit that JS and Jerimiah have a “reasonable doubt” about the time frame you identified the child’s execution as being acceptable.
As I said before, Israel has limited itself to a measured response to blatant and ongoing terrorist attacks.
If it wished to do so, Israel could wipe out the Palestinians: Every Palestinian that draws breath is living testament to Israeli mercy, and restraint.
Time and time again Israel stays its hands against its tormentors, even though their tormentors would delight to unleash a second Holocaust against the Jews, were it in their power.
Wow, you really are not the sharpest knife in the drawer are you Kahn? Did you see the post above where I patiently explained that churches are grouped with legitimate charities like the Red Cross for tax purposes, ie they are tax exempt both from the donor’s AND receiver’s side. In the tax code orgainizations like this are classified as 501(c)(3)s. Whereas unions, the sierra club, naacp, etc. are only exempt on the side of the receiver, you can’t write off your donation, they are classified as 503(c)(4)s or (5)s in the tax code. I am fine with Hagee’s church losing its status and being equated with unions, the serra club, etc. You fine with that?
Or are you going to need me to explain this to you several more times before you just give up and move on to your next non-objection. Again, please read the below wiki about charity tax law before making a fool of yourself again Kahn:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501(c)#501.28c.29.283.29
And yes, it is wonderful how you are ignoring the theme of this forum, how McCain has shacked up with a scumbag and is unrepentent about it.
134. js | February 29th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
As far as anyone can really say consciousness is only apparent if one can remember it. Then theres the arguement for Amnesia. If one cannot remember who they are then? in my opinion, they in effect become and entirely different person with different personality traits. Since Personality define who someone is, then, if there is no consciousness (ie. memories, personality), then the person is TRULY not living. Sure theres a body, but that is just a shell. I honestly would hope if anything were to happen to me where I would never regain consciousness my family would pull the plug. I’ve suffered through something similar with my great aunt, and let me tell you I would not wish that on anyone.
havent you figured out that just because politicians made campain laws doesnt mean they are good laws southerner?
If you figure it out, congress passing tax exempt status to a church, only because it stays out of political endorsements, is a blatant violation of the Constitution.
Those laws 1-respect the establishment of a church that stays out of political activity, and 2-restrict the excercise of religion by excising the religious from endorsing those who uphold the values of thier religion.
Setting aside all the legal baffle that has been created to hide the obvious, you cant get around the simple truth.