Burger-Flipper Economics 101


These people say they “deserve” $15 per hour. They are ENTITLED to it.

Contrary to what the populist Chairman Obamao bloviates, it’s not about what people “deserve.” It’s about what value people bring to the market– what set of skills they bring to the table and how marketable and valuable that skill set is.

People who can flip burgers or keep a menu straight are a dime a dozen. That doesn’t make them bad or inferior as people, it’s just that there are many, many people with that skill set who can fill that position.

If someone is terminated or quits a burger flipper position, the pool of people who possess and/or can be easily trained for that skill set is enormous. That position can be easily filled.

People who can successfully manage and run a restaurant and its finances have a different skill set. Though they are still ubiquitous in number, they are fewer in number than the burger flippers. They get paid a little higher, because people with the more specialized skill set are higher in demand.

People who can do neurosurgery, or for that matter who can play ball at the major league level, are very few in number–they bring an esoteric skill set– they are very few in number, and very, very few people can fill their shoes if they leave.

A higher wage is commanded by such people, because of the value they bring, like rare, fine diamonds– they are higher in price because they aren’t found everywhere. The market screams for such talent, yet such talent is so rare, that the talent must be compensated well in order to keep that talent.

It’s basic market economics, people!

QUESTION: How many of you think fast food workers deserve 15 dollars and hour????
QUESTION: How many of you think fast food workers “deserve” 15 dollars an hour????

106 thoughts on “Burger-Flipper Economics 101

  1. bardolf2 December 6, 2013 / 1:41 am

    “People who can do neurosurgery, or for that matter who can play ball at the major league level, are very few in number.” – Leo

    The top .1% of the people in the world with skill X are the top .1% in the world with skill X. That’s called a tautology. The number of neurosurgeons and major league players is determined by a tournament system of filters and not by an objective standard which could be obtained by tens of thousands.

    I’ll try to explain it so you can understand. The 4 minute mile in running wasn’t broken by a human until 1954 but not there are talented high schoolers who can do it. In the Olympic 1500 meters we don’t see those high schoolers because the tournament system has selected even faster people. The market doesn’t want a fixed skill like 4 minute runners it wants the top 20 runners. The competition is to be in the top 20 not to have a pre-defined set of skills.

    There are tons of minor league players with the skill set of major league players of 30 years ago. There are hundreds of pianists with skills which would have placed them at the top 50 years ago. There are not hundreds of openings at Carnegie Hall.

    “People who can flip burgers or keep a menu straight are a dime a dozen. That doesn’t make them bad or inferior as people.”

    If that is a meant as a moral observation it’s mendacious, if it meant to be an economic observation it contradicts the definition the market gives to inferior.

    • neocon01 December 6, 2013 / 7:47 am

      That doesn’t make them bad or inferior as people.”
      and it doesn’t make them good or superior as people either.
      just some schlep in a job even obama could do (well maybe)

    • Amazona December 6, 2013 / 9:56 am

      Gee, dolf, thanks ever so much for your labored effort to explain what seemed to make sense to you at the time. Of course, you completely missed the point, but your breathless Roseanne Rosannadanna exhortation (what we have come to call ‘dolfing’) was still rather entertaining.

      I don’t think anyone was trying to compare some ball players to other ball players, or neurosurgeons to other neurosurgeons. I’m not quite sure how you got off onto your RR tournament tangent. The point was that the selection process for neurosurgeons is much more rigid and demanding than it is for burger flippers and this results in far fewer doctors who can operate on peoples’ brains while there are lots and lots of people who can say “do you want fries with that?” And because of this, the brain docs get paid more than the burger flippers.

      The point was that when a skill set is very very basic, easily acquired by anyone and not dependent on things like education or a high IQ, that skill set has less value in the market place because it is common, easily acquired, and easily replaced. Let an alien spacecraft shoot a tractor beam at earth that sucks up only neurosurgeons and McDonald’s employees, and you’ll be able to buy a Big Mac within a day, but good luck getting your brain tumor removed.

  2. neocon01 December 6, 2013 / 7:41 am

    This week I wasnt working near my usual lunch haunts, sooooooo I decided to venture into (three) different burger joints. In the first (MD) some (son of Ubama) employee mopping the floor at 12:05 when there was about 40 people inside and many more coming and going. My crew and I just sat there laughing at the stupidity…..PS the “service” was non existent and food pizz poor.

    NEXT BK, (demographics not included) there were four people in front of me and six-seven people behind the counter, cooks, order takers etc. all just either standing there or doing some frivolous “”busy work” but NO ONE taking orders, I decided to wash up while waiting for the crew to go to work, of course at 11:55 there was NO hand towels in either of two machines and the blower did not work in the electric hand dryer. The bathroom was a pig stye…I simply left with out eating there (the four were still standing there) un attended.

    third- hardees, same same …..I finally looked out the window saw 1 car in the drive through, left got in my truck went through the drive through got my order ****completed**** BEFORE the person ahead of me in the line was waited on…..OMG!!!!
    $15.00 PH, for THIS GARBAGE, LOW LEVEL, BRAIN DEAD, SURLY, RUDE,POOR QUALITY “service” and “food” ?????? YEAH RIGHT” when pigs fly.

    • Count d'Haricots (@Count_dHaricots) December 6, 2013 / 1:53 pm

      In contrast, neo, while teaching Small business Management at a local high school I would invite my students to eat at three local “burger joints” then report back on the cleanliness, service, quality and value of the product.

      What I got back every year was no surprise; McDonald’s were marginally filthy, pizz poor service, and sawdust like food, a local favorite here Baker’s was clean, service was friendly and attentive and the food was inexpensive, tasty and the menu was varied (American Burgers and Mexican tacos/burritos).

      Finally was In & Out . The best by far was always In & Out Burgers, spotless – clean, big juicy burgers made to order, fresh cut potato fries all reasonably priced. Always long lines that moved very quickly because of talented, attentive, efficient & articulate service staff.

      McDonald’s has very low standards, pays minimum wage and attracts floor-mopping couldn’t possibly give a Flying Fig about their job or their customers. They behave like this because management tolerates it. Staff turnover is high.

      Baker’s attracts the same employee, pays the same as McDonald’s but does not tolerate sub-standard service or less than hygienic conditions. Staff turnover is low.

      Both of these are walking distance from a large University so there is no shortage of students looking for work.

      In & Out hires only the best, has trains well and fires anyone that does not consistently perform at the acceptable level. In & Out pays twice minimum wage. Their tiny restaurants are staffed with 2-3 times the staff you are likely to find at McDonald’s, and everyone working there is working. Applicants wait for months to get a chance to work here; many fail to make the grade.

      • neocon01 December 6, 2013 / 2:20 pm

        Applicants wait for months to get a chance to work here; many fail to make the grade.

        BINGO!! 100% on the money.
        too bad the trolls from site z are too ignorant to see the utter folly and stupidity of moping the floor in the middle of the busiest time and highest foot traffic of the day.
        Not only that, it is also dangerous as it is very slippery (greasy) when wet.

      • Count d'Haricots (@Count_dHaricots) December 6, 2013 / 2:37 pm

        AND, I can bet the mop-monkey was using COLD water!

        Why? Because to constantly empty the bucket and refill with HOT water requires more than the minimum effort he was expending.

        I spent the first 10 years of my post-college career in the restaurant business. I know these people! I hired them, i fired them, I tried to get through to them but was unable to motivate them to make their lives better and my life easier.

  3. jake (@goldjake1788) December 6, 2013 / 8:41 am

    neo do you realize how elitist and racist you sound? By the way the food at mcdonald’s is terrible and burger king but the one thing about mcdonald’s is the burger taste the same in california that it does in new york as it does in florida. It is a six sigma organization like any other that standardizes it’s food and processes to make it as efficient as possible. Most warehouses follow the six sigma model. If the food was terrible it is because Mcdonald’s is not the place to eat. I am glad you have so much time to walk into a mcdonald’s and laugh at poor people.

    • neocon01 December 6, 2013 / 8:51 am

      jake from alltrollsRus
      neo do you realize how elitist and racist you sound?

      only to some one who sees a raaaaacist elitist in every woodpile, the truth is the truth no matter where it falls but you gotta love the race card being dealt right out of the box.
      Stick around goldie you still have the xenophobe, bigot, sexist, and eeeevil angry white male – T party card to play ROTFLMAO….soooo predictable!! LOL LOL

    • Amazona December 6, 2013 / 10:14 am

      Jakie, Jakie,Jakie, take a breath, take a pill, but get a grip. Your shrill screeching in this and your other two posts has dogs howling and ears bleeding in six states.

      It is so darling that when you heard a phrase (“six sigma”) you actually thought you understood it and then wanted to impress others by using it, but you might want to work on actual comprehension before you dive into something like this and make a fool of yourself.


      ” Six Sigma is a disciplined, data-driven approach and methodology for eliminating defects (driving toward six standard deviations between the mean and the nearest specification limit) in any process – from manufacturing to transactional and from product to service.

      The statistical representation of Six Sigma describes quantitatively how a process is performing. To achieve Six Sigma, a process must not produce more than 3.4 defects per million opportunities. A Six Sigma defect is defined as anything outside of customer specifications. A Six Sigma opportunity is then the total quantity of chances for a defect. Process sigma can easily be calculated using a Six Sigma calculator.

      Yep, sounds like Mickey D’s to me……….

      For the record, no one was “laughing”. neo was pointing out attitudes that keep these people at the bottom of the ladder economically.

      While you are walking around with your nose in the air, disdainful of markets like WalMart and McDonald’s, you are evidently also ignorant of the fact that these companies, and others like them, provide excellent job opportunities for people who have never acquired skill sets that have much value in the market place but who are willing to work hard and learn.

      The sluggards and slackers mentioned by neo, who stood around chatting while customers were ignored, will never be WORTH more in the market than they are now. Actually, as long as they are being paid they are being overpaid as their worth is negligible, as workers. (Yes, we know they are all God’s children, wunnerful in His eyes, blah blah blah. To an employer, as contributors to the bottom line, not so much.)

      But someone off the street, with minimal education and average IQ, but with a desire to advance, can within a few weeks be a shift manager in a McDonald’s, and with application of energy and willingness rise to increasing management positions. Ditto for WalMart. This is a company that prefers to hire from within, and it is possible to start off as a cart collector cleaning up the parking lot and end up as a regional manager. These are companies, and there are many others, who do not demand high qualifications at the entry level, but which will look for, recognize and reward initiative, hard work, and a desire to get ahead.

      But at that entry level, they do not waste a lot of money on people like those described by neo. These people are given a chance to show that they want the jobs and are worth more, and when they don’t provide that proof they are simply not worth more than they get paid now. If that.

      • jake (@goldjake1788) December 6, 2013 / 1:22 pm

        For the record because i was forced in my company to take six sigma clases, GE is very proud that Mcdonald’s uses 6 sigma. Of course you are too lazy to google anything.. During the classes they used Mcdonald’s as an example


        where are you getting this crap from. Please provide a link instead of talking so much. It has been proven over and over again that advancement in walmart is minimum, There was a great story how a really great cake decorator that everyone loved got a .55 cent raise after working with walmart for fifteen years.

  4. jake (@goldjake1788) December 6, 2013 / 8:52 am

    however what do you want? I believe in birth control and family planning so people do not have 6 kids who will grow up and not be able to provide for their kids and have a chance to live a balanced life. You freakin scream people are lazy and on food stamps but these jobs keep them on food stamps. An education might get them out of economical turmoil but you believe high school and colleges are evil liberal places. So what is your solution? For me i can afford higher prices and whatever and i would never shop or eat at walmart or mcdonalds(unless my kid is tired needs drive through). What happens if you raise the minimum wage up to ten dollars and 10% go off food stamps or welfare. is that better? Would that work for you if a percentage goes off food governmnet assistance. What do you suggest besides mocking them

    • J. R. Babcock (@JRBabcock) December 6, 2013 / 10:09 am

      An education might get them out of economical turmoil

      Jake, if you rounded up every minimum wage fast food worker in the country and offered them a free education — completion of high school (as a high percentage are drop-outs) plus trade school, technical school or college, how many takers do you suppose you’d get? Of the takers, what percentage of them do you think would complete said education?

      • jake (@goldjake1788) December 6, 2013 / 1:31 pm

        i actually agree with you on this point. I am just stating that there are ways to keep people away from minimum wage jobs. I agree- in economics there are bell curves and most of the people you provide free education too will not finish their degree. It is like the study of the billionaire who told a poor elementry school class that if they finished high school and got into college he would pay for it. I think there were only 5 students that actually accomplished the goal or something. It’s been a long time. I am just saying there are ways to get people off minimum wage

      • neocon01 December 6, 2013 / 1:47 pm

        jake from allTrollsRus

        I am just saying there are ways to get people off minimum wage

        WHY? WHY? WHY? is it ANY of our or the governments business if someone is making minimum wage??
        WHY is it any bodys business “TO GET **THEM** off minimum wage????????

    • Amazona December 6, 2013 / 10:29 am

      Jake, see my post above. The companies you find beneath you offer opportunities for advancement.

      What are you doing, trying to compete with yourself for Stupidest Comment of the Day? (P.S. So far you are winning.) “An education might get them out of economical turmoil but you believe high school and colleges are evil liberal places. ”

      Seriously? You seriously think that?

      High schools, and even more so, colleges, have become indoctrination centers for radical Leftist allegiance, but they are not “evil”, they are merely not doing their jobs, unless you acknowledge that their jobs are to groom Liberal voters to keep the Ruling Elites in power.

      The primary value of a high school diploma these days is merely that it proves the willingness and some minimal ability to stick with a program for four years. But that is more than many can or will do, so it does have some value. Unfortunately, it no longer implies a minimum level of math skills, language skills, or any basic knowledge of any sort other than how to put a condom on a cucumber and how fracking is ruining the earth. If you can think of any job qualification that would be enhanced by the average high school diploma, please share.

      Other than specific areas such as law, medicine, engineering, and the sciences, college does little or nothing to prepare people for the workplace. But millions of people a year figure out how to get into, and pay for, various trade schools. They learn tech skills, welding, diesel mechanics, etc. and they go out into the market place where those skills have value and they are well paid for those acquired skills. We have a heavy equipment operator making six figures a year, more than the president of our company—-worth every penny, because of the profits he brings to the company. I don’t know if he even has a high school diploma, and I don’t care, because he has worked hard to acquire and perfect a skill set that has value in our market place.

      But thanks ever so much for sharing your bigotries as well as your ignorance of economics.

      • jake (@goldjake1788) December 6, 2013 / 12:28 pm

        Wow where did you get your economics degree? You write diatribes but most people can stick to a point and make it. Please define where my bigotry is because you clearly do not read neo responses and know what bigotry is? You clearly are not that educated and have way to much time on your hands because you can write 1000 words diatribes on what people should do. Which you clearly hate because that is not what the constitution states.

        THe question which you are clearly not able to answer is what is better or what is your solution to get people off food stamps or minimum wage. You did not provide any sources or math to prove anything.. ALl you do is attack. Use your brain and answer the question. Where the hell did the tirade on high school’s and colleges come from.Here is something called a source

        With a high school diploma only, the average full-time worker earned $652 per week in 2012, or $33,904 for 52 weeks, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. Bachelor’s degree graduates earned an average of $1,066 per week, or $55,432 annually — a difference of $21,528 per year. The BLS statistics include only full-time workers ages 25 and older.

      • jake (@goldjake1788) December 6, 2013 / 12:48 pm

        fine – i am going to try to have a Discussion with you on this because you are so smart.
        What is your solution and i agree we should stop them from buying extra stuff and drug test them. Here are the solutions and please add to any of the solutions.

        1. Keep them at minimum wage and on food stamps or welfare.
        2. Raise the minimum wage hoping to get some of them off food stamps and welfare
        3. Have them work 60 hours to 80 hours a day which only equals about 28,000 dollars a year. If you have children that is still not enough to live so have them still on food stamps and welfare

        It is not about entitlement- i think there is a reason walmart is getting a bad rap right now. They want their worker’s on food stamps because it is easier for them. Dam the people and not the company.

      • neocon01 December 6, 2013 / 1:52 pm

        jakie boy @alltrollsRus

        1. Keep them at minimum wage and on food stamps or welfare.</i.

        WHO is KEEPING *****"THEM"***** at anything??? but THEM SELVES??

        Two of my crew you know the raaaaacists that were laughing at the mop boy, Juan (puertorican) and Farzam ( Iranian) take issue with your blind and ignorant accusation of racism.

      • Count d'Haricots (@Count_dHaricots) December 6, 2013 / 2:06 pm

        With a high school diploma only, the average full-time worker earned $652 per week in 2012, or $33,904 for 52 weeks, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. Bachelor’s degree graduates earned an average of $1,066 per week, or $55,432 annually — a difference of $21,528 per year. The BLS statistics include only full-time workers ages 25 and older.

        I believe this is where ‘dolf should weigh in. The statistics are convoluted because they represent what persons who have achieved the degrees not what the degrees have achieved for them. The persons with advanced degrees would most likely earn more by virtue of thier personal work habits drive and conviction rather than the sheepskin they earned through the same ambition, drive and conviction.

        Those without the advanced degrees are fundamentally indolent and less dedicated to success than the counterparts that put aside the adolescent pleasures to pursue a degree.

        Ditto Trade-School as opposed to learn-on-the-job.

        C’mon ‘dolf, dazzle us with the appropriate algorithm.

      • neocon01 December 6, 2013 / 2:35 pm

        Ditto Trade-School as opposed to learn-on-the-job.

        in my trade one requires both ojt and trade school. 10,000 hrs ojt and 5 years schooling (evenings) to just become a rookie journeyman, then at least ten years to achieve any form or recognition as being a foreman, superintendent, or job lead.

      • Count d'Haricots (@Count_dHaricots) December 6, 2013 / 2:45 pm

        Exactly neo, hop many of those mop-monkys are willing to make that kind of commitment?

        The guy who thinks he can short-cut the hard work by skipping the Trade-School, take a job as a plumber’s helper (note the pun) and then 10 years later can’t figure out why he’s not earning as much as the Journeyman lead is the short-cut kinda guy.

      • bardolf2 December 9, 2013 / 2:31 am

        “C’mon ‘dolf, dazzle us with the appropriate algorithm.”

        Ouch. You cannot make bricks without straw is the idiom that comes to mind.

        An experiment where large numbers of hard working/intelligent people were free to choose to avoid the college path would probably show that college isn’t all that it pretends. Today, when insurance companies expect college degrees for jobs like claims adjusters I wouldn’t expect universities to come clean about their contribution to the bottom line and the murkiness of causation vs correlation will continue for the near future.

        Still, I am nevertheless optimistic that Mark’s make/mine/build algorithm might come to pass along with good examples like Amazona’s brother’s story of building up a gravel business. What will matter as technology replaces more and more low skill jobs is that local economies and their finances become less dependent on what happens in New York and Washington. Can California wean itself from federal monies anytime soon?

  5. neocon01 December 6, 2013 / 9:01 am

    jake from alltrollsRus

    What happens if you raise the minimum wage up to ten dollars and 10% go off food stamps or welfare. is that better?

    the $10.00 PH now becomes the $3.00 PH it is all relative, everyone else demands to be paid more than a burger flipper, the burger flipper at $15,00 PH is still on the last rung of the ladder and requires OPM to live…..economics and logic 101…….more leftist demanding the government to do something which is not their roll never ending victim mentality and OPM aint it grand?

  6. jake (@goldjake1788) December 6, 2013 / 9:07 am

    fine so you are ok with them being on food stamps and welfare because at least they work?

    • Amazona December 6, 2013 / 10:36 am

      Jake, see comment above about you competing with yourself. You can cruise for a while, son, because you are waaayyyyyy in the lead.

      How about this? How about telling people that the things to which they now feel entitled—–cell phones, tattoos, elaborate manicures, gold teeth, $150 kicks—–are not essentials, and have to be EARNED by working for them. It is possible to live on minimum wage, though it may mean working more than one job—-as so many have, and still do——and it means doing things like passing on premium cable channels, cooking at home instead of eating at fast food places three or four times a day, etc.

    • neocon01 December 6, 2013 / 1:54 pm

      fine so you are ok with them being on food stamps and welfare because at least they work?

      NO Im fine with them working, paying taxes (which they dont) and not receiving anything…just like I did.

    • neocon01 December 6, 2013 / 2:06 pm

      of why kicking poor people makes them feel so good

      an assessment only a complete fool or moron (or both) would come to.

      • Amazona December 6, 2013 / 6:41 pm

        More from Jonah Goldberg:

        “Friedrich Hayek argued that many of our institutions and customs emerged from “spontaneous order” — that is they weren’t designed on a piece of paper, they emerged, authorless, to fulfill human needs through lived experience, just as our genetic “wisdom” is acquired through trial and error. Paths in the forest aren’t necessarily carved out on purpose. Rather they emerge over years of foot traffic.

        This reminds me of a story Kevin Williamson tells in his book.

        There is a lovely apocryphal story, generally told about Dwight D. Eisenhower during his time as president of Columbia University: The school was growing, necessitating an expansion of the campus, which produced a very hot dispute between two groups of planners and architects about where the sidewalks should go. One camp insisted that it was obvious — self-evident! — that the sidewalks had to be arranged thus, as any rational person could see, while the other camp argued for something very different, with the same appeals to obviously, self-evident, rational evidence. Legend has it that Eisenhower solved the problem by ordering that the sidewalks not be laid down at all for a year: The students would trample paths in the grass, and the builders would then pave over where the students were actually walking. Neither of the plans that had been advocated matched what the students actually did when left to their own devices. There are two radically different ways of looking at the world embedded in that story: Are our institutions here to tell us where to go, or are they here to help smooth the way for us as we pursue our own ends, going our own ways?

        The paths were formally recognized by the planners only after the paths were created through human experience.”

        Now it’s my turn—what I liked about this story is this: There are two radically different ways of looking at the world embedded in that story: Are our institutions here to tell us where to go, or are they here to help smooth the way for us as we pursue our own ends, going our own ways?

      • neocon01 December 7, 2013 / 8:55 am

        NOTE to cluster
        both mitch and the pitchfork have engaged in a slanderous, vile LIE. You have put peoples name and location and ****FALSE*****accusations in your postings which you both have been told were false and resulted from a hacked site.
        The name you have posted is the WRONG person yet is attributed publicly as me. I have contacted the person named and he is PI$$ED at the defamation of his name as am I.

        ONE MORE TIME ON YOUR BLOG AND YOU WILL BE LITIGATED BY TWO PEOPLE…I already have an attorney in place….TRUST ME on this one!!

      • neocon01 December 7, 2013 / 9:05 am


        Mandela Leaves Divided Legacy in Africa…
        Once branded ‘terrorist’ by USA…

      • M. Noonan December 7, 2013 / 2:41 pm

        It is a mixed record, but the fact is that he did manage to transition South Africa from apartheid to democracy without a civil war, and that is worth a great deal of thanks from the world.

        On the other hand, the transition wasn’t exactly flawless – the plain fact of the matter is that it probably should have gone slower with a more incremental increase in the voting base. 80% of the South African population had never engaged in democracy before and, of course, the long-oppressed majority also lacked education and business skills necessary to compete in a free market. The basic vision the ANC offered was “vote for us, and you’ll live like the minority has” and, of course, that was simply not possible…and so South Africa struggles along today with 25% unemployment, some times violent labor disputes, a huge segment living on less than $1.25 a day and increasing tensions not between black and white, but between citizens and other Africans who illegally stream in to South Africa because, for all that, its still vastly better than other countries. A more careful plan of integration to slowly raise up the majority would have done better, in the long run – but it is typical of the left (and Mandella was firmly of the political left) to demand everything all at once. What we have in South Africa is much akin to what happened in Russia with the abolition of serfdom…all of a sudden millions are “free” but don’t have the skills to live as genuine free men and women…they get angry and resentful and start making mistakes (I believe that South Africa’s horrendous violent crime rate is related to this).

        I still have high hopes for South Africa – the Democratic Alliance which is the majority party in the Western Cape province of South Africa is providing a genuine alternative to ANC rule (curiously enough, the old apartheid National Party was absorbed in to the ANC some years ago; probably in a – successful – gambit to provide cushy government positions for the leadership…which is, oddly enough, all the National Party ever stood for in the past). The Democratic Alliance is more liberal than conservative, but it has some sensible policies and now that Mandella has passed and his immense moral authority will decrease in terms of providing automatic support for the ANC, there is a chance that South Africa will develope a viable, two-party system which will over time be able to reform South Africa and turn it in to a fully integrated, multi-ethnic democratic Republic.

      • neocon01 December 7, 2013 / 5:47 pm

        I do NOT mourn the cretin

        “Communist Mandela Chose to Side With Despots, Murders Like Castro, Arafat, and Ghadafi
        December 7, 2013 | Filed under Africa,Anti-Semitism,Big government,Business,corruption,Deaths,Democracy,Democrats,Free Market Economy,History,Liberals,Media,Society | Posted by Warner Todd Huston

        Everyone has turned to star-struck mush on the death of former South African President Nelson Mandela, but it should be remembered that he chose to side with murderers, despots, and communists when he emerged from prison in the 1980s. He also headed up a political party guilty of murder and terrorism.

        Nelson Mandela, Winnie Mandela and Jow Slovo sing Nksoi Sikelele I’afrika in Soweto. The Communist Party holds its first public meeting in South Africa in 1990, after being banned for decades.

        Mandela was the head of the African National Congress Party (ANC) a party guilty of decades of murder, terrorism, and violence. In fact, South African President P.W. Botha gave Mandela the opportunity to walk out of jail for free if he just renounced the ANC’s terrorism. He always refused to renounce terrorism.

        But beyond the crimes he was accused of before he became “the” Mandela that everyone so gauzily remembers, he had a long list of crimes accredited to him. At the bottom of the page you can see a list of the charges leveled against him”


      • neocon01 December 8, 2013 / 10:33 am

        Cain was a neutral expert with some kind of first-hand information. Cavuto’s first words to Cain were: “You hear and see what’s going on here.” Then Cavuto asked, “How many of those who are protesting are fast food workers and how many just might be union plants?
        sometimes wonder.”

      • Amazona December 7, 2013 / 11:40 am

        cluster was so eager to show off how ‘tolerant’ and ‘open-minded’ he is, he crawled in bed with these jackals. Hard to tell if he has learned yet that they are perfectly willing to throw him under a bus if that’s what it takes for them to be able to wallow in their spite and malice in the venue he provided for them. You have told him what the consequences might be but he may not have the control you think he has over that blog. He said he went into it with mitche, a sociopathic misfit he seemed quite drawn to, so he may not have the ability to shut it down.

        Or he might not be willing to make his new “friends” mad at him. They are probably all he has, right now.

        I don’t think he shares their pathology, but in his eagerness to be accepted by them and showcase what he seemed to think is a superior attitude of being all non-judgmental and all he has become entangled with that pathology and may very well have to pay a high price for it.

        He’s crossed other lines as well but this may be the most costly to him. This one may actually be against the law. Even if these are just examples of absolutely horrible judgment and not poor character, it’s still on him.

      • GMB December 9, 2013 / 11:37 am

        “He crossed other lines….”

        I do not know about that. However I do know that even if he has given co-ownership of his blog to someone else, all he has to do to delete the blog is go into dashboard, click on “tools” then click on “delete site” then click “confirm”

        Presto, blog is gone.

        You should forgive every transgression against you every time. However you also should obey the laws of the land you live in.

        I think Jesus said things to those effects but maybe you should get confirmation from a Bible.

        Happy Monday!


      • neocon01 December 9, 2013 / 12:14 pm

        while celebrating the death of a murderous terrorist obama continues the destruction of America….an interesting E mail here

        “Retired Army Major General Patrick Brady recently said that Obama is “intent on emasculating the military” and that he’ll “fire anyone who disagrees with him.”

        Such an allegation ought not be ignored.

        The fact is, several reports show that a number of retired and active military leaders are gravely concerned about Obama’s handling of the armed forces.

        This is why we are demanding a congressional investigation. We need to know whether or not Obama is systematically weakening our military as claims say, and why it appears that Obama is “purging” top leaders that disagree with his political agenda.

        Will you help us call Congress into action?

      • neocon01 December 9, 2013 / 12:43 pm


        Presto, blog is gone.

        so obviously Jay condones this sort of slime, he has even partnered with one of the biggest loons ever to walk the face of the earth and still has hot links to a pornographic, anti Christian hate site with people who should be in a mental institution and welcomes them. His partner is a regular poster at the fork……maybe he should link his real estate office site to the pitchfork and his swamp.

        meanwhile welcome back Bro 🙂

      • GMB December 9, 2013 / 1:19 pm

        I am back but I am going to do my best not to talk about politics. LOL right? No talking about politics on a political blog. Even I have a hard time believing that. I am going to try.

        Having said that, I do not know what has happened and what was printed. I do know that a WordPress blog can be easily deleted.

        I will leave the rest up to the principles of the matter at hand.

      • Amazona December 9, 2013 / 2:05 pm

        GMB, we do talk about other things, sometimes.

        For example, have you seen the dogs with hands playing with a band doing “Little Drummer Boy”? I think it is a lot better than dogs with hands eating in a restaurant, though the yellow Lab still has ADD issues.

        Broncos are doing great, and this leads me to a public announcement. Yes, I was wrong when I objected to replacing Tim Tebow with Payton Manning. True, it was more of a wish that we had kept Tebow as a backup to learn from Manning, but I won’t quibble. Elway and Bowen made the right decision, I was wrong and they were right, and it has led to a fun season

        We are looking forward to some Global Warming, hoping to get above single digits, temp-wise. Man-made, solar, we don’t care.

        I learned that pumpkin not-pie is even more popular than pumpkin pie. It turns out that most people are not crazy about the crust, but baking the filling on its own was a big hit. And Emeril Lagasse’s recipe for turkey tetrazzini is the best.

        We’ve had some spirited discussions here with lots of dissent among ourselves, so we don’t need the trolls to keep it lively. One such debate on Who Killed Kennedy spurred me to order some of the new books on the topic and one of these days I might bring it up again, if only to tweak Mark. (Mark, did you know that a House committee found, in the 90’s, that the Warren Commission report was seriously flawed and inconclusive?)

      • GMB December 9, 2013 / 2:53 pm

        See above, looks like I have to relearn a thing or two.


      • neocon01 December 9, 2013 / 3:55 pm

        Mandela vs. Thatcher? Who deserves flags at half-mast?
        Written by Allen West on December 8, 2013

        We finished family Sunday dinner this evening and my wife Angela asked me a question I had to ponder. She asked, “Did we make this big a deal over the passing of former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher as we are for South African President Nelson Mandela?”

        I had to think about it since the “Iron Lady” passed back in April of this year. Meryl Streep did play her in a movie. So I Googled, “did America flag fly at half-mast for death of Margaret Thatcher??”

        I found a site called theburningplatform.com and got the answer: “He [President Obama] did not order the flag flown at half staff for the death of Margaret Thatcher, did not attend her funeral, and did not send any high level officials to represent the United States.”

        Read more at http://allenbwest.com/2013/12/mandela-vs-thatcher-deserves-flags-half-mast/#17JFG6PB7bBbGQ2u.99

        SICKENING !!

      • neocon01 December 9, 2013 / 4:15 pm

        My Man

        Allen West
        Heading out early to join tens of thousands of South Florida bikers for the annual Christmas Toy Run down in Broward County. I love being out with my fellow riders and this is just a great, heartfelt charity event supporting our less fortunate kids. God bless the men and women of the Ironhorse, the open road, the bikers all over America.

  7. baileyoski December 6, 2013 / 11:11 am

    Good grief people! While I find some of these comments on point, the rest of them at least make for humorous reading to start the day. I love the in-fighting here. The whole point is that, in general, one is paid according to what the job is worth and the available pool of workers. Fast food restaurants are not a career for most folks, or shouldn’t be. They are places where the young who are working (hopefully) through school can earn a few bucks. They are also good places for geezers (like myself) to earn pin money while remaining fairly active and getting to interact with people. NO ONE in this life is entitled to anything except the opportunity to get where they’d like to be in life. I am thoroughly sick of hearing and reading the word, ENTITLEMENT! How low have we fallen in this country? How much lower do we have to fall before Atlas shrugs?

  8. jake (@goldjake1788) December 6, 2013 / 11:27 am

    You are absolutely doing the same exact thing you mock people for. Telling people how they should spend their money with the comment below. The point is i don’t have a problem with the government doing that i guess you don’t either. Fine tell them they can’t do that and drug test them fine. Obviously they cannot survive on minimum wage if they are on food stamps and welfare. Also how are you suppose to cook a meal when you work 60 to 80 hours per week or 2 or 3 jobs? There is barely time to sleep. Please show me the math where someone can live on minimum wage? I agree the government should tell them not to get those things?

    How about this? How about telling people that the things to which they now feel entitled—–cell phones, tattoos, elaborate manicures, gold teeth, $150 kicks—–are not essential

    • Amazona December 6, 2013 / 1:08 pm

      Jake, you are really having trouble with this, aren’t you?

      The thing is, I don’t think that even you are so abysmally stupid that you think the comment ” How about telling people that the things to which they now feel entitled—–cell phones, tattoos, elaborate manicures, gold teeth, $150 kicks—–are not essential…” has anything at all to do with telling people “….how they should spend THEIR money …” (emphasis mine)


      No, it is about telling people that they are not entitled to these things, and that no one else should be expected to buy these things for them. And it is about them understanding that if they make a certain amount of money it is their responsibility to use that money to buy essentials first, and only then to buy the luxuries. It is about pointing out that if they choose to buy those luxuries instead of food or housing, that is their decision, for which they are totally responsible for then being hungry or homeless.

      Surely not even you failed to grasp that basic concept of resource allocation.

      As usual, you are too incoherent to make it clear just what you mean, or think you mean, by “You are absolutely doing the same exact thing you mock people for” but I can assure you that if you think anyone is “mocking” people for being poor money managers and buying frivolous luxuries instead of food and housing you need to get a dictionary and look up the definition of “mocking”.

      Dumb as you sound, even you cannot truly believe that objection to the Ruling Elite telling us that we are not competent enough to decide for ourselves how best to spend money we have earned, and that they should be able to take it from us to distribute as they see fit (that is, to buy votes to keep themselves in power) is in any way the same as telling people that frivolous luxuries are not essential. much less that they should be bought for those people with OPM.

      Not even you can be that dumb.

      • neocon01 December 6, 2013 / 2:07 pm

        Not even you can be that dumb.

        Wellllll LOL

  9. jake (@goldjake1788) December 6, 2013 / 1:34 pm

    ha please elaborate because your head spinning so much you stopped making sense. Break this sentence down

    The thing is, I don’t think that even you are so abysmally stupid that you think the comment ” How about telling people that the things to which they now feel entitled—–cell phones, tattoos, elaborate manicures, gold teeth, $150 kicks—–are not essential…” has anything at all to do with telling people “….how they should spend THEIR money …” (emphasis mine)

    what the hell does it have to do with your money. This sentence is ludicrous. No wonder you are where you are- you are so desperate to be right that you contradict yourself

    • neocon01 December 6, 2013 / 2:08 pm

      what the hell does it have to do with your money. This sentence is ludicrous. No wonder you are where you are- you are so desperate to be right that you contradict yourself

      COMPREHENSION 101, Ama is SPOT ON!!

      • Amazona December 6, 2013 / 2:25 pm

        neo, it is a waste of time to try to talk to the Jakes of the world. He is determined to distort a comment, for example, on how frivolous luxuries are not essential as an effort to tell people how to spend THEIR money.

        Hey, I don’t care how anyone spends money he or she earns. What I do care about is the assumption that anyone is so entitled to frivolous luxuries that I am supposed to help pay for them, as well as the attitude that if someone earns some money and makes the choice to spend it on frivolous luxuries then I, and other taxpayers, should have to pony up food and housing money.

        McDonald’s can brag all it wants to about using a system, but this is meaningless. I went by “…To achieve Six Sigma, a process must not produce more than 3.4 defects per million opportunities….. ” and it didn’t sound like any McDonald’s I have ever seen.

        Jake is just a pissed off Lefty who can’t defend any of his cockamamie ideas but he sure can hurl the snot nuggets.

  10. jake (@goldjake1788) December 6, 2013 / 1:46 pm

    Amazona here is the definition of mockery
    mocking – abusing vocally; expressing contempt or ridicule; “derisive laughter”; “a jeering crowd”; “her mocking smile”;

    here is what neo wrote- tell me how this is not expressing contempt or ridicule or derisive laughter? Idiot

    This week I wasnt working near my usual lunch haunts, sooooooo I decided to venture into (three) different burger joints. In the first (MD) some (son of Ubama) employee mopping the floor at 12:05 when there was about 40 people inside and many more coming and going. My crew and I just sat there laughing at the stupidity.

  11. neocon01 December 6, 2013 / 2:03 pm

    well if you want to see derision, mockery, contempt, ridicule, derisive laughter, insults, profanity, threats, lies and SHIITE smeared on people who post at B4V….GO to ****YOUR – mearcat, bmithch (the fake s,cavalor), KFC, cluster, caspers*** site allpolytics.com and roll in the vile puke you all vomet there, BUT DONT COME HERE ALL HIGH and MIGHTY deriding people you have a burniung hatred for and lecturs and BABY FACE US….IT DONT PLAY HERE!!

    • jake (@goldjake1788) December 6, 2013 / 3:21 pm

      i bet you would love to think i have a hatred for you or any of you. Why would i hate anyone? The only people i might actually hate are cowboy fans in philadelphia but that is another story. i am not high and mighty- i am pointing out a fact that you cannot have it both ways. Are you mad that these people are on food stamps yes. Are you mad they are on welfare yes. do you want to pay them so they can get off these things, no. So that is how the system works at this point. These are not non-working people on welfare or food stamps. These are real people. Whatever Neo i am glad i can get under your skin.

      • Count d'Haricots (@Count_dHaricots) December 6, 2013 / 3:29 pm

        do you want to pay them so they can get off (food stamps and welfare), no.

        Read this again, let that sink in.

        Amazona is correct, you cannot have a conversation regarding enumeration of services with someone that uses that statement as an argument.

        This is also why conservatives are generally happier, more fulfilled people and why liberals live in a world of unfairness and hopelessness.

      • neocon01 December 6, 2013 / 3:49 pm


        Whatever Neo i am glad i can get under your skin.

        even funnier than above, you obviously think highly of your self………Im as thick skinned ole grunt as you will ever meet kid, you couldnt succeed getting a hair on my az frizzed with an industrial heater. LOL

  12. Count d'Haricots (@Count_dHaricots) December 6, 2013 / 2:32 pm

    A higher wage is commanded by such people, because of the value they bring, like rare, fine diamonds– they are higher in price because they aren’t found everywhere.

    Ouch, bad analogy.

    Diamonds are not rare at all; the price is manipulated to give the impression that they are. Much like these “protesters” (Union Thugs trying to force a raise in minimum wage which gives them the roll-up increases they desire, but that’s a discussion for another thread) are trying to convince us that the burger-flippers are a finite commodity with lasting shelf-life.

    The libiot point-of-view is that employers have an obligation to provide their employees with a specified standard of living and that further the government is therefore obligated to establish what the acceptable standard of living is then ensure compliance.

    Leo’s point is that employers are obligated to pay in accordance with the equity (value) of the position; the value the labor brings to the mission of the employer.

    Yet the market has already proven a better arbiter of the wage/standard of living paradigm. (Read any of Andrew Carnegie’s Tomes) Full employment and living wages are possible at all strata of economic scale; where the wages are paid based on the contributions and the salaries are sufficient for comfortable existence.

    The problem is government; once a third party begins to establish equity, the equation becomes unbalanced.

    Look no farther than the idiotic Hobson’s proffered by the “economical” tenderfoot above “ Keep them at minimum wage and on food stamps or welfare.

    This is how the great-big liberal minds see the economy. A false choice of conditions created by big liberal brains that insure the choices continue to be no-win situations.

    Here is the real choice; hold individuals accountable for their own actions. Employers will pay more as the employees bring greater equity to the equation. (See my In & Out example above.)

      • Count d'Haricots (@Count_dHaricots) December 6, 2013 / 2:51 pm

        Very good neo.

        As an interesting aside, Maslow changed the top of his pyramid numerous times. Self actualization or self attainment became more of a Zen-like TRANSCENDENCE.

        In any event, Maslow and Peters were integral parts of my classes.

    • neocon01 December 6, 2013 / 2:48 pm

      I suggest anyone out there read J.C.Penney’s autobiography

  13. neocon01 December 6, 2013 / 2:55 pm

    what these brilliant minds demanding $15.00 PH which translates to @ $18.15 RAW cost is unsustainable. The Dominos pizza place in the building our shop is in is run by two people. All the ingredients are per measured in ONE dispenser, the person unrolls pre rolled crust lays in on a table pushes a button ALL toppings are dispensed with one motion, it is placed in an oven on a tread mill in five minutes comes out completely done, is boxed by second person and is set on a shelf for pick up or picked up by delivery driver……..TWO PEOPLE…….this could be done across the board for all fast food.

  14. Amazona December 6, 2013 / 3:30 pm

    I find it amusing, as well as worth noting, that it takes the minimum wage kerfluffle to bring the trolls out of the woodwork, with their goofy examples and their hateful rhetoric.

    I have known people who have worked for WalMart. I have a relative who worked for the company for many years, and who worked her way up from stock clerk to regional auditor and regional Accounts Payable clerk. But what is supposed to be compelling evidence of WalMart not promoting from within is an apocryphal story about a cake decorator who got only a 55 cent raise after 15 years ( FIFTEEN YEARS !!!!) even though the proof of her value to the store is the fact that EVERYBODY LOOOVVED her!!!

    Well, gee, what more did WalMart need to know?

    The way I see it, if she was such a valuable employee that they wanted to keep her, wanted to offer her what it would take to keep her from going somewhere else, they would have paid her more. And if she was a valuable enough employee, she would have been able to find a better job somewhere else. What I got from this silly story is that she settled in at her limited skill level, got paid what it was worth, either assumed or knew from experience that her skill level would not bring any more than that at another job, and finally got a raise based probably on mere seniority and not on value to the company.

    What Jake got is that Wal Mart is just a mean company run by mean people who didn’t care that people loved this woman and didn’t pay her for being popular. And that they owed her a raise for being popular.

    It’s just that conflict of visions thing again.

    No, I don’t have an economics degree—and I still know and understand vastly more about the topic than Jake. And by the way, I think my overall educational level and intelligence show through in my writing. For example, I am not plagued by the Rogue Apostrophe. And I can follow a coherent thought, and process it, without spinning off into Lefty hysteria.

    I would certainly not be responsible for something this idiotic: ” I agree the government should tell them not to get those things?” Aside from the poor punctuation, I don’t think the government should tell anyone not to “get” anything so I don’t see where there is anything to “agree” with. I think the government should not be involved in whether people get these things or don’t get these things. I think it is no business of the government if people earn enough to get these things but not enough to get these things and also pay for food and housing—that is their choice and if manicures trump eating, well, that’s a personal decision and decisions have consequences.

    I think the states, not the federal government, should provide whatever safety nets for the helpless that the voters of those states want to provide. Not helpless? Then you’re on your own.

    As for not being able to cook if you work 60 hours a week, BS. I’ve known working mothers who put in 40-50 hours a week at outside jobs plus cooking, cleaning, homework with the kids, etc. I’ve put in more than 60 hours a week and still been able to fix meals—–cereal or scrambled eggs in the morning, Crock Pot stew waiting for me when I get home, etc.

    I can see why some people feel that it is the job of the feds to baby them, take care of them, make sure they get what they want whether or not they choose to work, make sure they get paid the same as productive workers even if all they do is show up and punch a time clock. With people like Jake screeching that they simply are not capable or competent enough to do what millions of others do, that they are too weak, too feeble, too tired, too whatever, it has to be easy for some to take the easy way out and agree with them and not even try.

    But they, and the Jakes who enable them, have to live with the fact that we hold them all in contempt. Every person who has wanted more than he or she could afford and then either sacrificed to save to get it, or worked hard to improve his or her employment so it would be affordable, disdains those like Jake who make excuses for the lazy and the unmotivated.

    • jake (@goldjake1788) December 6, 2013 / 3:36 pm

      you are so full of rhetoric and story telling it is so funny. I know i know i know. I know person at walmart who works 100 hours and doesn’t get promoted. The basic point is if you did your research and looked at the facts maybe you would be more educated. Read the freakin wall street journal or something. What grade do you think someone like you that post no links, no sources or footnotes would get on a term paper? If you did this in court they would throw you out and laugh at how stupid you are.. I never seen someone post some much rhetoric and you expect people to just believe you.

      • Amazona December 6, 2013 / 4:02 pm

        Yet another thing you don’t seem to get is that I could not care less if you “believe me” or not. Your opinion is totally irrelevant to me.

        This is a forum for discussion of ideas. I present my ideas, I back them up with various examples. You squeal that I am a bad person and you insult me, but you offer only vague emotion-based objections to what I say.

        I am not writing for a class, or to get a grade. I am writing from real life, about real life, using real life as my teacher. You—well, it’s hard to tell what is your foundation, other than a lot of hostility and knee-jerk spasms of incoherent insult-hurling.

        I can say “I know” because I actually do know things. You can dismiss this because you know nothing.

        Take a look at my next post……………

      • Count d'Haricots (@Count_dHaricots) December 6, 2013 / 4:09 pm

        I don’t know about “term Paper” but you’d get an “A” in my class for directly answering the questions and supporting the logic behind your answer.

        … and you can join us and present your case in court anytime; the judge would find your cool logic and dispassionate argumentation refreshing.

      • Amazona December 6, 2013 / 4:47 pm

        …not to mention my really good taste in cars?

        Thanks, Count

    • neocon01 December 6, 2013 / 3:59 pm

      My 30yo son was working (running) a job at an apt house in da hood. A 31 yo black guy axed him for a job…they talked for a few minutes and J found out not only was this jr achiever fresh out of prison (dreads gold teef and all) but had EIGHT KIDS from EIGHT DIFFERENT women we hired the poor lad on the spot………welllll maybe NOT!!

      • Count d'Haricots (@Count_dHaricots) December 6, 2013 / 4:05 pm

        I met that guy, he walked into my business, asked for an employment application, then said, “Are you going to hire me or am I wasting my time filling this out?

        And prophetic!

        It turns out he was wasting his time.

  15. Amazona December 6, 2013 / 4:05 pm

    Something that at first glance might not seem related to minimum wage, but like all Leftist theory it all ties together in the end. One way or another it is all based on the belief that some people are just inferior to others. From “Liberal Fascism” by Jonah Goldberg:

    Consider the debate over the minimum wage. The controversy centered on what to do about what Sidney Webb called the “unemployable class.” It was Webb’s belief, shared by many of the progressive economists affiliated with the American Economic Association, that establishing a minimum wage above the value of the unemployables’ worth would lock them out of the market, accelerating their elimination as a class. This is essentially the modern conservative argument against the minimum wage, and even today, when conservatives make it, they are accused of — you guessed it — social Darwinism. But for the progressives at the dawn of the fascist moment, this was an argument for it. “Of all ways of dealing with these unfortunate parasites,” Webb observed, “the most ruinous to the community is to allow them unrestrainedly to compete as wage earners.”

    Ross put it succinctly: “The Coolie cannot outdo the American, but he can underlive him.” Since the inferior races were content to live closer to a filthy state of nature than the Nordic man, the savages did not require a civilized wage. Hence if you raised minimum wages to a civilized level, employers wouldn’t hire such miscreants in preference to “fitter” specimens, making them less likely to reproduce and, if necessary, easier targets for forced sterilization. Royal Meeker, a Princeton economist and adviser to Woodrow Wilson, explained: “Better that the state should support the inefficient wholly and prevent the multiplication of the breed than subsidize incompetence and unthrift, enabling them to bring forth more of their kind.” Arguments like these turn modern liberal rationales for welfare state wage supports completely on their head.

    (A little about E.A.Ross: “Ross’s anxiety over the higher racial differential between Americans and immigrants pushed him to seek a quick solution in the form of eugenics. The fear of “race suicide,” fostered “. . . a rapid synthesis of the science of eugenics. . . .” in Americans, among them Ross. Ross pursued other means of protecting the racial purity of America through immigration policies. The continual failure to restrict the influx of immigrants frustrated Ross, prompting him to look towards eugenics.” Nathan Castillo,

    Sidney Webb was also a Liberal hero and eugenics proponent.

      • Amazona December 6, 2013 / 6:29 pm

        Oh, Count, it is so much worse than mere low expectations.

        The “Progressives” defined “progress” as the perfection of selected, “superior”, races, and the reduction of and even elimination of races they found to be inferior. This is the heritage of those who so proudly call themselves Progressives today.

        Margaret Sanger came up with Planned Parenthood as a means to lower the birthrate of black people, even if it involved killing their babies in utero.

        A.E. Ross said ““Better that the state should support the inefficient wholly and prevent the multiplication of the breed than subsidize incompetence and unthrift…” so they would be less likely or able to “….. bring forth more of their kind…” He defined certain races as “savages” and “miscreants” and looked for ways to make them “…easier targets for forced sterilization…”

        The Liberal support for a raised minimum wage was that it would encourage employers to hire more people from the acceptable races, and that this would affect the inferior races by “… (locking) them out of the market, accelerating their elimination as a class…”

        Low expectations would be far more benign than the ideals of those whose goals included the elimination of some races, through various means, including killing their babies and “if necessary”, forced sterilization.

        Though today’s Progressive is all about the idea that “…the state should support the inefficient wholly…” for a different reason—-to use them as livestock, to provide enough votes to keep them in power.

  16. Retired Spook December 6, 2013 / 4:40 pm

    I tend to agree with investment guru Jim Rogers, that there’s going to be a global economic reset sometime in the fairly near future. What happens to the people who have never exhibited any ambition to do anything more than demand a higher minimum wage when the government can no longer support or subsidize their existence?

    • Amazona December 6, 2013 / 6:12 pm

      Spook, I think the riots in Greece might give us a clue……………

  17. M. Noonan December 6, 2013 / 6:49 pm

    At a certain level, I do think that McD’s should be forced to raise their minimum wage to $15 an hour – but that is only because the “food” there is nauseating and if they got driven out of business it would be a boon to eating. And that is what $15 an hour means – unless it means near complete automation of the fast-food industry (which is a possibility as someone has already invented a machine which apparently makes an excellent burger exactly to order with completely fresh ingredients).

    The truth of the matter is that Democrats need an issue to get us talking about because if we talk about what is actually going on then they are doomed. ObamaCare is a complete failure. Obama has proven himself a completely dishonest person – he’s untrustworthy. Obama’s unconstitutional actions are undermining our system of government. The economy is in a slow death spiral (the unemployment rate dropped to 7%? Bull – if the labor force participation rate was just at the November, 2012 level it would be 7.9%…Obama, as I’ve said, is a liar…and his dishonesty goes straight down to the bottom of his Administration…they are putting out fake economic numbers, period). The juiced-in rich are getting vastly richer while the middle class are getting crushed. Poverty is spreading. Crime in increasing. The world grows more dangerous by the day as America’s power atrophies. This push for a higher minimum wage is just a way to distract and fire up the ignorant base of the liberal political machine…and, of course, try to put us on the defensive because if we fight against a hike in the minimum wage, we’ll be portrayed as the rat-bastard defenders of the Corporations.

    We’ll see if it works. I don’t think it will – people are on to this scam; they know that a hike in the minimum wage is just a bit of class-warfare rhetoric which might play well on MSNBC but doesn’t resonate with the people hurt the most right now…people who make $20 an hour and are being squeezed by Obama’s catastrophic economic policies.

    • Amazona December 6, 2013 / 10:45 pm

      I think you need to give McDonald’s a break. It’s easy to be snide about the chain, till you are traveling cross country, driving a deuce-and-a-half pulling a 36 foot trailer and need someplace to stop and eat in various small towns along the way. I agree, the food is not great, but the place is a godsend when you are out in the boonies, in unfamiliar territory, late at night or driving a rig that makes you seek out places close to the interstate and with great big-rig parking.

      Even when I was driving a sedan across country, I depended on Mickey D’s. When you hydrate along the way, you need to de-hydrate, if you get my drift, and Points of Interest on a GPS will take you to a conveniently located drive in where you can use the facilities, buy a bottle or two of water and get back on the road.

      I don’t like their burgers, but there have been times when it was late and this was the only place open when one really hit the spot. The locations are good, the hours are good, and there are many times when it is the only show in town, either because the town has nothing to offer or because of the time of day. Believe me, I’ve been in some small towns where relatively speaking McDonald’s was the culinary high point of the town.

      I’ve been in good McDonald’s and really crappy ones. I’ve had good service and bad service. Every now and then I stop at one on my way to work for a DRP when I need a caffeine shot and am not in the mood for coffee, and the one I go to always has a cheerful person handing me my change and my drink in the drive-through.

      This chain is never my first choice, but it has its place.

      • M. Noonan December 7, 2013 / 1:00 am

        Just a fan of Jack’s, Burger King and Carl’s Jr…McD’s! Ewwww!

      • Amazona December 7, 2013 / 12:59 pm

        That’s great, if you are in a place that offers those choices. In the little towns I am talking about, there might be a Burger King—-maybe—-but Jack in the Box or Carl’s Jr.? Not likely. And McDonald’s marketing is brilliant, regarding placement of their stores. Easy to get to, with ample parking for big vehicles and combos. BK, etc. seem to ignore that market.

        I definitely prefer BK, as far as food goes, though I have seen plenty of BK places that were nasty. Wendy’s has some good special burgers, but for some reason they are always temporary menu items. Wendy’s has decent chili, but again, not all Wendy’s have decent parking for anything but urban-type vehicles.

        But when it comes to sheer convenience, McDonald’s is way ahead on points, and their breakfast foods aren’t bad.

  18. dougq December 7, 2013 / 1:58 am

    Does it really matter? At the rate we are going, they will print up enough new dollars that they’ll be getting their $15 an hour in 5 years……Just that the Big Macs will be 10 bucks and those making $30 an hour will be getting $60 an hour and a gallon of milk will be $8 a gallon.

    What’s the point, Kucinich was on O’Reilly wanting $12 an hour and admitted that the way to pay for it was to print up more dollars. Well, duh, if you print up enough dollars those wages will rise, but so will everything else and the only ones that will get hurt are the elderly and fixed income folks. Inflation is deadly, and these demwits are idiots. Now do we have someone on ourside who can best explain this like Milton Friedman was able to – someone that can take on the idiotic media and explain the fallacy?

  19. neocon01 December 7, 2013 / 9:01 am

    YOU are the registered owner of the aforementioned blog I do not want to drag you into this so either shut down the alcoholic drunken baffoon of suffer the consequences….you KNOW what I am talking about!!

    • Cluster December 8, 2013 / 2:55 pm


      Whenever I have noticed any personal names mentioned, I delete them, and will continue to do so. There is no room for that in any debate forum. I don’t condone any of that activity nor do I engage in it. In fact I find the current political blog environment so distasteful that I haven’t posted anything for about a month, nor do I anticipate doing so anytime soon. You however post here everyday some of the most rancid comments ever, and then you’re surprised and angered when someone attacks you??


      Years ago I use to enjoy the banter with liberals here on this blog, but after some time this blog did not share that same sentiment so I created another forum, yet the escalation of that banter at this point has gone to a very juvenile area that I don’t care to participate in anymore. I will note that a few folks here made concerted efforts in the past to track down and expose the liberals that use to post here, so that is hardly the sole purview of those who neocon is now going after. I also have zero “eagerness” to be “accepted” by anyone – in fact non-acceptance has usually been a goal of mine in most walks of life. My feeling towards the current liberal mindset is that they are in the process of committing political suicide with their rancor and arrogance, and when your opponent is in self destruct mode – the best option is to get out of the way and allow them to proceed.

      • Amazona December 8, 2013 / 4:07 pm

        cluster, I came to know the name of one of the Lib posters, but it was hardly through any concerted effort on my part. I used to chat with someone who worked (works) for a company where I did some business in Casper, Wyoming, and the talk often touched on the political story of the day. One day casper had just posted something inane on the topic that came up and I said something to the effect of “There is a middle school teacher here in Casper who posts on this blog I visit, who says the dumbest things…..” and mentioned a couple of the more weird things casper had posted. Her response was “Oh my God, that sounds just like Mr. _______ —–he’s taught three of my kids and he is a complete idiot!” So we started to compare notes and it turned out that the casper of the blog posts IS the Mr. ________ who teaches in the school attended by her children. And it turned out that she, and many of the other parents, had made a point of talking to their children about what Mr. ___________ had told them about American history and the Constitution and it came down to telling the kids “Don’t listen to a word he says about this because he doesn’t know what he is talking about”.

        He is a good mentor for the mentally and emotionally challenged students, and those lacking the skills that would let them fit into the mainstream, but he is well known for being the school Libiot when it comes to teaching about our country, the Constitution, etc.

        I never posted his name, or the name of his school. He chose to use the name of his town as his blog name, but if he had not and I had learned what I learned I would not have posted that, either. If he had not identified himself as a middle school teacher from Casper, Wyoming, I doubt that his posts would ever have been mentioned when the company clerk and I chatted about politics, and his identity would have remained anonymous.

        I also suggest that you have very different definition for “banter” than most of us do. The most toxic of the Lefties were banned, so I understand, because they offered nothing in the way of content other than hate and spite and insults. “Banter” usually refers to good-natured back-and-forth, preferably witty but always friendly. What I, at least, saw from the toxic Left you courted was vile, hateful, and vicious, and a take-no-prisoners attitude toward being presented with alternative information and points of view. I came to see them as the honey badgers of the blogosphere.

        And you made a serious effort to comingle this blog with your new one, by posting the same thread posts on both, and by constantly referencing this blog, which made it a de facto anti-B4V blog, which I found very offensive.

        You own the blog you started. I think it is a cop-out to now just leave it up as a forum for the kind of distasteful garbage that defines it and just say you personally won’t post there any more. You created it, you invited its participants to join you there, you set it up as an anti-B4V blog, and it is your baby, whether or not you still post there or not. As long as it exists, it reflects on you.

    • neocon01 December 9, 2013 / 8:38 am

      You however post here everyday some of the most rancid comments ever, and then you’re surprised and angered when someone attacks you??

      However the so called rancid comments do not include calling a woman poster a C#@T like the regulars on your dump do.
      my posts are my opinion or articles from other sites…drudge, the blaze, breitbart etc.
      posting LIES and my personal information is not attacking it is slander Jay and I will not tolerate if from the pile of steaming s#!t you call a blog. Im sure you would not like me to post your name, address, business, address, and accuse you of being a child mosleter (which I am not) that would make for great home sales wouldnt it??

      • Amazona December 9, 2013 / 10:36 am

        cluster, you are pretty loose with your definitions. You refer to vicious personal attacks complete with the most vulgar possible profanity as “banter” and you refer to comments from neo you don’t like or agree with as “rancid”. You describe foul and profane personal attacks as merely being “juvenile”. You seem pretty intent on sanitizing your contribution to the blogosphere, and seem to think that any criticism of it by neo will be negated if you can smear him.

        neo is often quite blunt, and cares not a whit for political correctness, but posts articles and columns written by others about what is going on in the world, and he posts his opinions about those things. And I often see a post from him that is not on the blog the next time I come back, so obviously there is a standard for blog content.

        Not so for your own blog. I’ve looked at it a time or two and found it to be depository of the most ignorant, hate-based, and utterly disgusting garbage I have seen. If I didn’t know the history of its creation, I would think it to be a Dirty Tricks effort by the Right to portray the Left in the ugliest and most despicable way possible.

        You created an online space for horrible people to post vile and disgusting comments about other people, you invited known bottom feeders to participate,and now you leave it up for them to use as a forum for their seething hatred and foul commentary—–and you make the Big Eyes of innocence, refusing to shut it down and pretending that if you simply don’t participate in it you are not responsible for what is posted there.

        You knew what they were like when you made a nice cozy nest for them to call home, you invited them in knowing why no decent blog would allow them on, you provided a forum for them, you encouraged them, and now you shelter them, while trying to walk on both sides of the fence and claiming that you don’t hang out with them any more.

        Nope, this is your clubhouse, it has your name on the door, you built it and you invited the people you wanted to share it with you. You can try all you want to dismiss their vitriolic hate-driven pathology and its expression through disgusting vulgarity and profanity as merely being “juvenile” but all this does is point out that you are still defending them.

      • Cluster December 9, 2013 / 12:09 pm

        You guys are all nuts. As I said (and how I do hate repeating myself so please try and retain this information) that any personal attacks are deleted and not allowed at “my blog”. I have also told all participants that if any of it continues, I would take down the site. All of you are affirming my desire to no longer participate here or elsewhere. As GMB says – Happy Monday!!

      • neocon01 December 9, 2013 / 10:44 am

        Sarah Jones case: Ex-cheerleader’s defamation suit puts Internet giants on edge


      • neocon01 December 10, 2013 / 6:20 am

        You guys are all nuts. As I said (and how I do hate repeating myself so please try and retain this information) that any personal attacks are deleted and not allowed at “my blog”.



        Time Out
        Posted in Open Thread by kmgtwo

        half way down in BIG BOLD RED letters a ping back to the fork with an individual’s name and a filthy defamation of character associated with it IT HAS BEEN THERE FOR DAYS and IS DULY COPIED and ARCHIVED!!!

        you are either a liar, or have no clue of the garbage posted on the site you own with mitche, or just purposely turn a blind eye when it suits you.

        so WE are nuts? but the forkers, mitche, kfc, caspur et all are the sane ones who slur, rant, hate, defame,with anti Christian hate speech, bigotry, and profanity at will on your site?

      • Cluster December 10, 2013 / 7:41 am

        They are nuts too. As they say in Texas – all y’all. But the beauty of a free society is that everyone has the right to be nuts, and if it offends you, I might suggest not reading it. Why do you even let it into your head?

        As I said previously, I think the emboldened left is in the process of committing political suicide, and we should allow that to happen.

      • neocon01 December 10, 2013 / 6:24 am

        I would take down the site. All of you are affirming my desire to no longer participate here or elsewhere. As GMB says – Happy Monday!!

        Then do your self and everyone else a favor AND DO IT JAY
        and happy Tuesday to you you will not be missed. 😦

      • Amazona December 10, 2013 / 12:16 pm

        cluster, you are completely right.

        Our free society does allow you to create a blog to act as a clubhouse for people too vile to be accepted anywhere else. It does allow you to pretend that vicious, profane and vulgar personal attacks on people are mere “banter”. It does allow you to pretend that such attacks are not proof of malignant pathology but are merely “juvenile”. It does allow you to stick out your chin and dig in your heels and refuse to remove the blog, whether this is because you don’t want your new buddies to be mad at you or you don’t want to be seen as caving in to neo or whatever.

        But what is interesting is that it also allows decent people to view you as, in the best light possible, just someone with really horrible judgment but still not one with whom to associate, or in the alternative one of the loser troll brigade. It also allows neo, or anyone else who chooses, to pursue legal action against you for your actions, because when it comes right down to it, it doesn’t matter if you sponsor this hate site out of malice or bad judgment. It’s still your clubhouse, you built it, and it has your name on the door.

        The old saying is “Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas”. In this case I think it would be “Lie down with swine, wallow in the muck with them, and get up covered in pig s**t.” But, as you keep reminding us, this is your choice and you are free to make it.

  20. jake (@goldjake1788) December 7, 2013 / 1:10 pm

    ok i have to ask Neo what are you suing for? The definition of slander is below. I am someone who had to sue people because competitors are always stealing my images and stealing my copy. Revealing your name and location is sadly in the internet age, not against the law but hopefully it makes you more careful on what you write on this blog. Slander is incredibly hard to prove and you have to prove it caused damage to you. What damage has been caused? Save your money and just be more careful.

    • neocon01 December 7, 2013 / 1:37 pm

      sorry jake false witness defamation of character, and a plain lie about some one are actionable offenses.

      • neocon01 December 7, 2013 / 1:40 pm

        “Defamation” is a catch-all term for any statement that hurts someone’s reputation. Written defamation is called “libel,” and spoken defamation is called “slander.” Defamation is not a crime, but it is a “tort” (a civil wrong, rather than a criminal wrong). A person who has been defamed can sue the person who did the defaming.

        The law of defamation varies from state to state, but there are some generally accepted rules. If you believe you are have been “defamed,” to prove it you usually have to show there’s been a statement that is all of the following:


      • neocon01 December 7, 2013 / 1:57 pm

        Jake I know your name, address, phone number, employer, and who some of your friends are.
        I could publish that info all day long, but If I did AND stated you were a child molester (which I am not saying) then you would have a legitimate beef.

      • Amazona December 7, 2013 / 2:21 pm

        I have seen some of the comments made by these cretins, in which they gave a full name and address they claimed to be that of neo and which they further claimed they got from a website allegedly his own, on which he allegedly admitted to various forms of sexual deviance and disgusting behaviors.

        I have seen him repeatedly state that this website, if one does exist, is not his, but truth and decency will never trump spite and malice and a certain kind of pathology, so the lies continued. They were always removed from this site, but when the worst offenders on this blog were cut off, someone who had claimed to be a conservative with a strong moral compass joined up with one of the sociopathic loons who had finally been kicked off this site for his unending screeds of hate and lies and they started a blog of their own. Their cozy little relationship provided a haven for the spite, hatred and malice-driven who are not allowed to post on most sites because of their distasteful personalities and pathologies.

        Its founder has refused to rein in these vile libels, which may prove to have expensive consequences for him. In the process he has allowed himself to be smeared with the mental excrement he has encouraged and now it appears he may be hiring a lawyer to deal with some of it.

    • Amazona December 7, 2013 / 5:01 pm

      neo, jake does have a point, in keeping off the internet.

      About 25 years ago, maybe more, a techie friend told me that it would be possible for anyone to find anyone on the net, including SS numbers, etc. Since then, I have had nothing in my own name. I have had several LLCs and revokable trusts set up over the years, and my property, vehicles and even utilities are all in those names. Even my credit cards are in LLC names, and my bank accounts are in the names of revokable trusts set up with me as the trustee, so I sign on them but you have to know the names of the trusts to track them down. The IRS can find me, of course, but I have been very careful to keep my name and other information away from cyberspace. A good hacker who knows those aliases could get into the internal records and find out who is on the records for various properties, credit apps, and so on, but it is pretty hard to start with just my name and track back through those entities. My brothers and my lawyer have notebooks with all this information because things could get lost without a record of what is held in what name, but I value my privacy and this is a rare commodity in today’s instant-information world.

      That’s why I had to laugh when casper claimed to know who I am. He had the wrong town in Wyoming and the property I owned there was not in my own name anyway, nor is the property I bought in Colorado

      It’s a shame we have to live like this, but in a world of predators of every stripe, including insane psuedo-Lefties desperate to hate and attack, it is increasingly important. I seldom talk about what I have done to protect my privacy, but when I have mentioned something about it I have learned that a lot of people do the same thing, sometimes to a lesser degree but the same type of pursuit of anonymity.

  21. neocon01 December 8, 2013 / 10:59 am

    HIV/AIDS in South Africa is a prominent health concern; South Africa is believed to have more people with HIV/AIDS than any other country in the world.

  22. Amazona December 8, 2013 / 12:03 pm

    The real story of the ANC.

    From FrontPage Magazine: (emphasis mine)

    The Gruesome Reality of Racist South Africa
    March 11, 2013 by Arnold Ahlert

    “For decades, the country of South Africa was the focus of an international rallying cry against the injustices of apartheid. On June 17, 1991, South Africa’s Parliament abolished the legal framework for the practice of racial persecution. In 1994, Nelson Mandela and his Marxist African National Congress (ANC) assumed the reins of power. The international community looked away, satisfied that justice had prevailed. They continue to look away, even as South Africa has degenerated into another racist pit, best described by an Afrikaner farm owner: “It’s politically correct to kill whites these days.”

    In July of 2012, Dr. Gregory Stanton, head of the nonprofit group Genocide Watch, conducted a fact-finding mission in South Africa. He concluded that there is a coordinated campaign of genocide being conducted against white farmers, known as Boers. “The farm murders, we have become convinced, are not accidental,” Stanton contended. “It was very clear that the massacres were not common crimes,” he added — especially because of the absolute barbarity used against the victims. “We don’t know exactly who is planning them yet, but what we are calling for is an international investigation,” he added.

    The number of farm murders, or “plaasmoorde” as it is called in Afrikaans, is staggering. Over the last decade, it is estimated that at least 3000 Boers have been killed. Estimating the number of murders is necessary because the ANC has banned crime statistics from being compiled, claiming they scare off foreign investment. Moreover, the world knows little about the savagery that accompanies those killings. Many victims, including women and infant children, are raped or tortured before they are killed. Some have boiling water poured down their throats, some are burned with hot pokers, and some are hacked to death with machetes, or disemboweled. Several others have been tied to their own cars and dragged for miles.

    The ANC, whose leader Jacob Zuma was reelected with over 75 per cent of the total voting delegates at the ANC National Conference held in Bloemfontein last December, denies that genocide is occurring, insisting that such attacks are part of the larger crime problem. Yet a report filed by the South African Institute of Race Relations notes that while crime has ostensibly declined between 1994 and 2011, “substantial numbers” of police stations have manipulated their crime statistics. The report sub-headline underscores the corrupt nature of crime statistics in the country: “Is this a true reflection of the crime statistics in South Africa? Who knows!” it states.

    What is known is that the ANC celebrated in 100th year anniversary with a song led by President Zuma himself. “Dubula iBhunu” or “Shoot the Boer” was a line in the lyrics of an apartheid-era song, “Ayesaba Amagwala” (“the cowards are scared”) that violates the South Africa constitution prohibiting the “advocacy of hatred that is based on race … and that constitutes incitement to cause harm.” Yet Zuma apparently felt no compunction to refrain from singing it, because the ANC considers it an integral part of the anti-apartheid movement that is part of their heritage.

    In 2010, Julius Malema, then leader of the ANC Youth League, revived the practice of singing the song after many years. After the South Africa High Court ruled it was hate speech, the ANC appealed. Last October, the ANC and AfriForum, a lobby group that wanted the song banned from public performance, reached an out-of-court settlement.

    Dr. Stanton concluded that Malema’s revival of a song advocating murder moved South Africa from the fifth stage on his genocidal scale to stage six. When the South African judiciary ruled it to be unlawful hate speech, Genocide Watch put South Africa back at stage five. When President Zuma was caught on tape January 2012 singing, “We are going to shoot them with the machine gun, they are going to run/You are a Boer, we are going to hit them, and you are going to run/shoot the Boer…” South Africa was raised to stage six once again.

    Stage six is known as Preparation: “Victims are identified and separated out because of their ethnic or religious identity. Death lists are drawn up. Members of victim groups are forced to wear identifying symbols. Their property is expropriated. They are often segregated into ghettoes, deported into concentration camps, or confined to a famine-struck region and starved.”

    The sixth stage is followed by stage seven: Extermination.

    Nelson got a pass on the infamous “Mandela Necktie”, where a tire was hung around the neck of a victim, filled with gasoline, and set on fire. The excuse was that Nelson was not responsible for this, his wife Winnie was.

  23. GMB December 9, 2013 / 2:49 pm

    First off, I am a cat person. We have three German Shepards however they are my wife’s creatures in heart and soul. They pretty much just ignore me. I have lost count of how many cats we have running around the fiefdom. Probably around twenty or so but only two ever come into the main house.

    The Bears, they are stinking it up again this year. 6-6 when they probably should be 9-3. The Illini finished 4-8, yeah, another invitation to stinky Tidy Bowl! Only problem with a Tidy Bowl invitation is that if the game doesn’t end in a tie, both teams have to forfeit. 😦

    Thank the Lord for the Blackhawks. Two Stanley Cups in the last three years and they are leading the league in points again this year. Things are looking good for them again. Now only if the NHL would just get rid of this stupid overtime rule and just go back to ties. Get a point for losing a game?

    Pie? Don’t care for most kinds. I like a good chocolate brownie pie but being diabetic, I am not able to eat much. A small piece now and then. Too many carbs don’t ya know.

    Speaking of diabetes, which I don’t believe we were, When first diagnosed I was taking 36 units of novolog a day. Now I am down to just 15 a day. Exercise folks, If you have diabetes, exercise is the best way to make sure your blood sugar stays were it needs to be.

    The Kennedy assassination involves too much on the political side. I do not put much into any conspiracy theory. Except for the moon. I believe, just like Dr. Farnsworth, that the moon landing was faked, On Venus!!

    • Amazona December 9, 2013 / 5:10 pm

      It’s not that I prefer dogs, it’s just that no one could make videos of “Cats With Hands” The videos would be more like “Cats With Bleeding Shredded Hands”.

      You have never struck me as a whimsical kind of guy, but you might check out the brilliant album by Garrison Keillor, “Songs of the Cat”. He has taken songs from every genre—- opera, German folk music, the Marine Corps Hymn—and rewritten them all with cat lyrics. His imitation of Johnny Cash singing standards like “Johnny Don’t Take Your Cats To Town” and “I Keep A Close Watch On These Cats of Mine (They Walk The Line)” is a don’t miss experience.

      I have one house cat, a Hurricane Katrina rescue cat who terrorizes my 65-pound poodle, and a bunch of barn cats, though one has gone missing and probably met up with a coyote. There are the cows and the horses and, of course, the yaks—a new baby about three weeks ago who is the cutest thing you have ever seen.

      Haven’t had to deal with diabetes but after my emergency surgery a couple of years ago my blood pressure went way up. The meds didn’t work but walking—that’s the only exercise that seems to help—-and herbs and supplements have made a difference.

      I’ve come to see Lee Harvey Oswald in a whole new light, learning that he worked with a U-2 team and that soon after he went to Russia we downed a U-2 that had been flying over Russia, under some very odd circumstances. I’ve also learned a lot about the rifle he allegedly used, as well as that the first lawmen on the scene at the book depository, gun guys all, all said the weapon they found was not a crummy cheap Mannlicher Carcano with a shoddy Japanese scope but was a Mauser, a beautifully engineered weapon of great precision. I have no theories of my own, other than LBJ was probably behind it all, but am fascinated by the details that have come to light since the Warren Commission made its hurried report.

      (Did you know that there was a fingerprint on one of the boxes in TBD that was never identified? And that decades later, when the fingerprint record of a convicted murderer named Mac Wallace was released, experts said the print at the TBD was his? That he had never served any time for the murder for which he was convicted, typical for Texas “justice” at the time, and he was a go-to guy for dirty work for LBJ?)

      Still going with astronauts on the moon………………..

      • GMB December 9, 2013 / 6:43 pm

        The Mannlicher-Carcano is definitely a very difficult weapon weapon to fire rapidly. Let me look but there is a vid floating around of Former Navy Seal and former Governor Jesse Ventura trying to emulate LHO’s feat.

        He failed miserably. The body failing at anything? Heaven Forfend.

      • GMB December 9, 2013 / 6:50 pm

        I am very whimsical. Humor is a great part of my life. It helps though to have a reference point from where it is coming from.

        Most humor these days has to do with pop culture and the like and that will never be my strong suit.

        How are you for farm related jokes?

      • GMB December 9, 2013 / 6:56 pm

        Here is another version of that vid. I do not think this is the original but another try at the re-enactment. The other vid was much shorter

      • Amazona December 11, 2013 / 1:05 pm

        “The Mannlicher-Carcano is definitely a very difficult weapon weapon to fire rapidly.”

        Oswald had been rated as a “sharpshooter” in the Marine Corps, a low rating achieved by most, and did so with a well-machined Garand M-1: “A nine-and-a-half pound semi-auto with well-calibrated aperture signts, heavy recoil, and no necessary manipulation between shots.” (emphasis mine)

        The rifle presented as the one used by Oswald was not only a cheap and poorly made rifle, it was about three pounds lighter than the M-1 which means it would respond differently after each shot, being a lot more responsive to the recoil, and it was equipped with a cheap Japanese scope that was not properly installed. So the shooter not only had to resight after every shot—that is, reacquire the target after the bolt was thrown before every shot—-it also had a scope that, according to the FBI gun guys who examined it, could not be zeroed. That is, it could not be adjusted with its point of aim indexed to its point of impact. It was attached with only two screws, not properly tightened, though both the scope and the rifle were designed for four screws, and it would have required shims to adjust it to the proper angle. The loose screws also made it highly probable that the scope would move after each shot, meaning that even if it had been adjusted as well as possible prior to the first shot (which is generally accepted to be a shot that missed) it would have a different adjustment after each successive shot. That is, it would become less accurate after each shot.

        So the Mannlicher-Carcano at its best is a rifle which is not easy to shoot with any accuracy if the goal is to snap off three shots in quick succession, the rifle in question was not tuned to make it the best example of that gun, it was in poor condition, and it was equipped with a scope that would detract from accuracy even for an expert shooter.

        There is plenty of technical data on what would have been necessary for a shooter to revert to the iron sights on the rifle—-the range for which it was designed and built, the mathematics involved in compensating for the differences in distance between its originally designed sights and that to the target—-but it all adds up to major doubts about the ability of Oswald to achieve what is attributed to him.

        Of course, the first officers on the scene always claimed to have found a Mauser, which would have been quite capable of doing what is attributed to the Mannlicher-Carcano, but that is a whole different set of questions and problems. One of those officers owned a sporting goods store and was quite familiar with firearms, so it is unlikely he would have been so mistaken. ??????

  24. GMB December 9, 2013 / 2:52 pm

    My reply went to a strange place for some reason. Oh Angel of the internet please move my reply to proper place!

Comments are closed.