An Insult To Intelligence (Presidential Debate – Open Thread)

The Obama regime, his surrogates, and the current progressive movement are an affront to intelligent people everywhere. Just this morning, two of the more offensively stupid surrogates of the Obama campaign, Debbie Wasserman Schultz and Stephanie Cutter, were on the equally offensive MSNBC network spouting simplistic childish garbage that they evidently seem to think are relevant issues in this campaign. First there was DWS who was contradicting herself trying to hurt Romney in terms of foreign policy first by claiming that Romney was a warmonger and wanted to take us back to the “cowboy” policies of Bush, but then just minutes later stated that there was little daylight between Romney and Obama on foreign policy. To his credit, Chuck Todd called her on that mind numbingly stupid assertion to which DWS responded by saying that that was the problem – no one knows what Romneys positions are. And this woman is the head of the DNC.

Up next was Stephanie Cutter, the co chair for the Obama campaign and one of the emptiest heads I have ever seen. Her contention was that the binder comment by Romney was a big issue, and indicative of how out of touch he is with women’s issues like contraception and equal pay. Let’s just put aside the fact that younger, professional women are already out earning their male counter parts, the Democrats treat women, and every other group for that matter, as some monolithic voting block who only care about special interest issues that only affect them. It’s offensive. Women on the whole are vastly more intelligent than Cutter, and care much more deeply about a whole range of issues other than contraception, which is widely available and affordable. Let’s look at Cutter’s other assertion which was Romney’s big bird comment of which she characterized as Romney’s only plan to balance the budget – which is to cut NPR. Well anyone with a 5th grade comprehension level knows that that is not the case, but that doesn’t stop her from making the claim on national TV, which again is highly offensive to thinking people everywhere.

Of course when you don’t have a successful record to run on, then you have to deflect and I think Obama said it best – “if you don’t have any fresh ideas, then you use stale tactics to scare voters.”

The third and final debate is tonight and Obama will do his best trying to scare voters, and I can’t think of anything more terrifying than a second term for Obama. Feel free to discuss what’s on your mind and please keep it civil.

Update:

My apologies to Ed Schultz for not including him in the band of mindless Obama followers. He is after all, the King of mindless Obama followers insulting people everywhere especially last Friday when he said:

“I’m getting more burned up the more I think about this! All right, now this is the locker room today. If this is too much for you, don’t listen to the radio show, I’m warning you. Women! Are you awake?! Do you know what this radical outfit wants to do to your rights in the workplace?!  Do you want them managing your vagina? Do you want them rolling back women’s rights 50 years? I don’t know! I’m just asking the question!There’s so many questions that we have to ask today!”

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47 thoughts on “An Insult To Intelligence (Presidential Debate – Open Thread)

  1. Count d'Haricots (@Count_dHaricots) October 22, 2012 / 5:12 pm

    I heard Dana Perino last night of The Five ask “what day this week will the MSM begin declaring that Romney “peaked too soon?”

    They’ve been chomping at the bit to declare a comeback for Obama; no one is buying that, so they’ve settled on the story that the Romney “bounce” is disappearing and the race is “back to” a dead heat.

    Another story they’re beginning to circulate is that because the Republicans have created such a caustic atmosphere since Obama was elected, if Romney wins the democrats will have no choice but to fight the Republicans on every issue because “they started it!” So, vote for democrats so the government won’t be in full gridlock. Democrats cooperate very well in a bipartisan manner with other democrats.

  2. J. R. Babcock (@JRBabcock) October 22, 2012 / 5:16 pm

    Do you want them managing your vagina? Do you want them rolling back women’s rights 50 years?

    That’s the way Democrats see women: as a vagina, as Rush said today, a vagina that should be exercised many times per day with contraceptives provided by someone else, and when the contraceptives fail, an abortion paid for by someone else.

    It’s very telling that Obama touted the Lilly Ledbetter Law in the second debate, but pays women White House staffers less than their male counterparts..

    But President Obama’s own record on closing the gender pay gap is less than stellar. Using late 2011 figures, the latest available at the time, The Washington Times earlier this year surveyed 121 White House employees who were paid at least $100,000 and found that 47 were women and 74 were men. That is only slightly better than in 2003, the third year of the Bush administration, when 39 of the top 121 employees were women.

    When all White House employees are considered, the Obama administration’s record dims a bit further. Female employees earn a median salary of $60,000, roughly 18 percent less than men, whose median salary is $71,000.

    While Mr. Obama has taken steps to ensure that senior women in the White House on average make as much or more than men, he has not dramatically increased the number of women at the highest levels compared with those serving under Mr. Bush.

    • 1neocon October 22, 2012 / 5:48 pm

      talk about an insult to intelligence…….

      • 1neocon October 22, 2012 / 6:22 pm

        talk about an INSULT to “intelligence”………GOOD GRIEF….

        Jesse Jackson Jr Headed for Reelection

        Despite being under investigation for “suspicious activity” regarding his congressional finances and being absent from Congress for months while being treated for mental illness at the Mayo Clinic,

        Representative Jesse Jackson, Jr (D-Ill) seems bound for reelection. Illinois Governor Patrick Quinn (D) insisted that “neither his prolonged absence from his post nor his ***potential criminal indictment*** should be construed as disqualifying him for office

        the plantation is well and alive and staffed with innercity zombies.

    • neocon01 October 22, 2012 / 7:22 pm

      GMB

      great article

  3. Retired Spook October 22, 2012 / 7:52 pm

    Great new video by Charlie Daniels.

  4. Retired Spook October 22, 2012 / 10:44 pm

    Well, there was no doubt about who the winner of this debate was, and it wasn’t Romney. Obama definitely came prepared, although It will be interesting to see what the fact checkers do with what he said, because either he just made up a lot of stuff (one of his favorite words, it seems) or he let everyone in on a lot of well-kept secrets tonight.

  5. Cluster October 22, 2012 / 10:53 pm

    I hardly would call Obama the winner, or Romney the loser. If anything it was a draw, and only because Romney laid off on the Libya issue. Other than that, Romney effectively tied the economy to a strong defense, had a great response to China and Syria, and accurately called Iran the greatest threat, which Obama missed.

    Obama was prepared, but he should be, and simply by being prepared hardly makes him the winner.

  6. Cluster October 22, 2012 / 11:01 pm

    Krauthammer: Romney went big, Obama went shockingly small. Romney’s devastating moment was when he called Obama out on his tour of Muslim countries claiming that America was derisive and dictated to other countries, to which Romney brilliantly stated that America does not dictate, we liberate.

    I agree. That was devastating and Obama had no response.

    • Retired Spook October 22, 2012 / 11:14 pm

      Obama tied most of his responses to positions from Romney that either supported Obama’s position, were “all over the map”, or were just simply the wrong approach, and I thought he did it very effectively. The fact that the Obama foreign policy has been “all over the map” was a slow, hanging curve ball that was just waiting to be hit out of the park, and Romney passed, IMO. As Krauthammer noted, Romney did go after the big picture, but in doing so he really let Obama off the hook on a number of disastrous foreign policy failures. The one thing I thought Romney did exceptionally well, and clearly his mission for the night, was to dissuade the notion the Obama campaign has been trying to paint that he is a warmonger.

      Now, all that said, I don’t think Obama won a lot of votes tonight that he didn’t already have. The election is still going to hinge on the economy, and there is simply no way that that can be spun in a positive way. Obama doesn’t have a plan that will make the next 4 years turn out any better than the last 4; Romney does.

      • GMB October 23, 2012 / 9:08 am

        Your frustration is showing Spook. This is most critical of Mitt I have seen you be.

        Come to dark side. We are waiting for you and you will be among friends.

      • Retired Spook October 23, 2012 / 9:30 am

        Your frustration is showing Spook. This is most critical of Mitt I have seen you be.

        GMB, I calls ’em as I sees ’em. I’m not a TOTAL BLIND PARTISAN IDEOLOGUE.

        In reading back through the transcript of the debate this morning, you come across stuff (I love that word almost as much as Obama) like this, and you have to just shake your head: (emphasis – mine)

        PRESIDENT OBAMA: You’ve got to be clear, both to our allies and our enemies, about where you stand and what you mean. Now, you just gave a speech a few weeks ago in which you said we should still have troops in Iraq. That is not a recipe for making sure that we are taking advantage of the opportunities and meeting the challenges of the Middle East.

        Now, it is absolutely true that we cannot just beat these challenges militarily, and so what I’ve done throughout my presidency and will continue to do, is, number one, make sure that these countries are supporting our counterterrorism efforts; number two, make sure that they are standing by our interests in Israel’s security, because it is a true friend and our greatest ally in the region. Number three, we do have to make sure that we’re protecting religious minorities and women because these countries can’t develop unless all the population — not just half of it — is developing.

        If he’s been doing those 3 things “throughout his presidency”, they are much better kept secrets than how “he killed” bin Laden.

      • Retired Spook October 23, 2012 / 9:52 am

        If he’s been doing those 3 things “throughout his presidency”, they are much better kept secrets than how “he killed” bin Laden.

        And he kept making them over and over, using the tried and true Progressive tactic of causing a lie to be true by repeating it over and over:

        PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, keep in mind our strategy wasn’t just going after bin Laden. We’ve created partnerships throughout the region to deal with extremism — in Somalia, in Yemen, in Pakistan. And what we’ve also done is engage these governments in the kind of reforms that are actually going to make a difference in people’s lives day to day, to make sure that their government aren’t corrupt, to make sure that they are treating women with the kind of respect and dignity that every nation that succeeds has shown, and to make sure that they’ve got a free market system that works.

        Another area where Obama lied through his teeth was when he said that Romney wanted to “liquidate” the auto industry. That one was too easy to fact check.

        Speaking of fact checking, I would bet that a fairly high percentage of people who are undecided at this point, are probably open-minded enough to spend a little time fact checking. When they do, they’re going to find that Obama got up on that stage last night and just told one whopper after another. Now maybe Progressives give extra points for making up stuff (heh) as you go along, but I would bet than not a lot of Independents do.

      • GMB October 23, 2012 / 11:31 am

        ” I’m not a TOTAL BLIND PARTISAN IDEOLOGUE. ”

        I never have said you were.

        I do think you are wrong about barky winning votes he did not have. I believe that minds have been made up. No amount of debating is going to change this election. barky needed a stellar performance last night. He did not get it.

      • Retired Spook October 23, 2012 / 11:43 am

        ” I’m not a TOTAL BLIND PARTISAN IDEOLOGUE. ”

        I never have said you were.

        Sorry, GMB, I wasn’t clear on that. That was actually aimed at James/Thomas/Sasan who has repeatedly made that claim about me.

        I do think you are wrong about barky winning votes he did not have. I believe that minds have been made up.

        I think you misread what I wrote: “Now, all that said, I don’t think Obama won a lot of votes tonight that he didn’t already have.”

      • GMB October 23, 2012 / 11:48 am

        I beg your pardon. I did misread what you wrote.

        In the immortal words of Emily Litella,

        “nevermind”

      • Retired Spook October 23, 2012 / 11:51 am

        I beg your pardon. I did misread what you wrote.

        You are forgiven; just don’t let it happen again, heh.

      • tiredoflibbs October 23, 2012 / 12:17 pm

        obAMATEUR: “one, make sure that these countries are supporting our counterterrorism efforts”

        Oh yeah, like EGYPT AND LIBYA…. That worked out so well. Iraq and Afghanistan are going down the same rabbit hole as well. obAMATEUR’s foreign policy is a dismal FAILURE.

        More attention would be brought to it had the media kept up with the military body counts that they did against Bush. We have had more casualties in Afghanistan under this pResident(70%) than under Bush(30%). The military hands are tied with ridiculous orders of battle from this poor excuse of a pResident.

        But the drones will support him no matter what. Pathetic.

  7. Cluster October 22, 2012 / 11:26 pm

    I thought Romney effectively pointed out that AQ and other jihadist elements now have a large presence in 12 ME countries as a result of no American leadership. He also effectively pointed out that the Arab Spring has turned out for the worst due to Americas weakness, and that our foreign aid lacks focus. Romney also deftly pointed out that even Ahmadinejad has noticed that our $16 trillion dollar debt compromises our strength.

  8. GMB October 23, 2012 / 5:47 am

    This is what I will say. If Mitt will walk as good as he talks, we are in for a very good next four years as a nation.

    We will see.

    • neocon01 October 23, 2012 / 8:08 am

      WoW

      Ann Coulter in Tweet:
      ‘I Highly Approve of Romney’s Decision to Be Kind & Gentle to the Retard’

      • GMB October 23, 2012 / 8:46 am

        Love her or hate her, she speaks her mind. The nose horns must be having fits right now over the “retard” term.

  9. GMB October 23, 2012 / 9:16 am

    Uninstalling Obama……… █████████████▒▒▒ 90% complete.

    • Retired Spook October 23, 2012 / 9:31 am

      ROTFLMAO!!

      • neocon01 October 23, 2012 / 9:40 am

        LOL 🙂

  10. Cluster October 23, 2012 / 10:11 am

    After reflecting overnight, Romney was clearly the adult in the room last night. I loved Romney’s line at the opening of the debate when he told Obama that “attacking me is not a policy”, yet Obama continued to personally attack and came off as petty. Obama was also visibly agitated when confronted on the few occasions, which explains his relationship with Netanyahu.

    • Retired Spook October 23, 2012 / 10:16 am

      After reflecting overnight, Romney was clearly the adult in the room last night.

      After reading the transcript, I concur. My initial reaction was the Obama ate Romney’s lunch, but the transcript doesn’t bear that out.

  11. Retired Spook October 23, 2012 / 10:13 am

    One of my favorite exchanges was this one:

    MR. ROMNEY: Well, of course I don’t concur with what the president said about my own record and the things that I’ve said. They don’t happen to be accurate. But — but I can say this: that we’re talking about the Middle East and how to help the Middle East reject the kind of terrorism we’re seeing and the rising tide of tumult and — and confusion. And — and attacking me is not an agenda. Attacking me is not talking about how we’re going to deal with the challenges that exist in the Middle East and take advantage of the opportunity there and stem the tide of this violence.

    But I’ll respond to a couple of the things you mentioned. First of all, Russia, I indicated, is a geopolitical foe, not —

    PRESIDENT OBAMA: Number one —

    MR. ROMNEY: Excuse me. It’s a geopolitical foe. And I said in the same — in the same paragraph, I said, and Iran is the greatest national security threat we face. Russia does continue to battle us in the U.N. time and time again. I have clear eyes on this. I’m not going to wear rose-colored glasses when it comes to Russia or Mr. Putin, and I’m certainly not going to say to him, I’ll give you more flexibility after the election. After the election he’ll get more backbone.

    • Cluster October 23, 2012 / 10:20 am

      That was a great line, as was the line when Romney clearly identified Iran as the number one threat, when Obama identified AQ. Clearly Obama doesn’t see Iran as that big of an issue, and furthermore doesn’t believe his own rhetoric that AQ is on the run.

  12. J. R. Babcock (@JRBabcock) October 23, 2012 / 10:25 am

    Obama made one statement that rivaled the “57 states” comment in its stupidity. (I’m paraphrasing) We don’t need more ships because we have aircraft carriers and submarines.

    And I wonder if the Navy Seals who killed Bin Laden have bayonet lugs on their weapons. And, of course, no one rides horses any more.

  13. Cluster October 23, 2012 / 10:38 am

    As predicted, when Obama loses, and I mean WHEN, the left will say it is simply racism, and Chris Matthews (not to be out done on the race issue), already has laid down the narrative:

    “I think they hate Obama. They want him out of the White House more than they want to destroy Al Qaeda. Their No. 1 enemy in the world right now, on the right, is their hatred, hatred for Obama. And we can go into that about the white working class in the South and looking at these numbers we’re getting the last couple days about racial hatred in many cases … this isn’t about being a better president, they want to get rid of this president,’

    Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/10/23/post-debate-msnbcs-matthews-claims-romney-supporters-fueled-by-racial-hatred/#ixzz2A8IKJjPH

    • The Return of Rathaven October 23, 2012 / 11:09 am

      I think they hate Obama. They want him out of the White House more than they want to destroy al Qaeda.

      I didn’t know we could vote on al Qaeda’s leadership. Well, I didn’t get my Libyan absentee ballot in time so I’ll just have to vote in our election.

  14. js03 October 23, 2012 / 10:41 am

    Romney missed the best shot he could take.

    Obama’s promises from the last election were never fulfilled. The poor people represented so strongly with Obama’s alegiance with Acorn were all let down, none of them sat at the table or helped to form his administrations policy as promised. As a matter of fact, Acorn was disassembled mostly due to its leaders failure to follow the laws.

    If he would have brought out the failures of the last round of election promises, and highlighted that the same promises today probably would be forgotten within days of the election, Romney would have sent a knockout punch that barak could not recover from.

  15. Count d'Haricots (@Count_dHaricots) October 23, 2012 / 10:59 am

    Say g’nite Gracie.

    I agree with Tim Stanley’s analysis, thanks Cluster.

    I listened, watched and was befuddled by the pundits calling the debate for Obama. From a debating standpoint Romany had facts and presented them when appropriate. Obama had opinion and rambled when cornered. Obama’s condescension in several exchanges would lose him points (bayonets and horses; investing in a company that ships jobs overseas; investing in Chinese companies that did business with Iran).

    An amateur debater; Obama telegraphed his “gotcha” and Romney was waiting for it. The issue was Libya; in the beginning of the debate note how many times Obama went back to the subject trying to draw Romney into any statement so Obama can spring his A-HA! moment. I don’t know what his handlers had prepared but it was so obvious Romney danced away several times; the error in this is that Romney should have sprung the Benghazi trap in his closing statement when Obama had no chance to respond. Unfortunately, the closing statements are rehearsed and Romney wouldn’t know in advance if he had the last word, or if Obama would have an opportunity to poison the Benghazi subject beforehand.

    The best exchange was the “Apology Tour” comments. Obama had no defense except to claim that the Press cleared him of that charge. To the Obama sycophants this was confirmation of their belief that the Press is accurately covering Obama’s tenure, to the Right this was a dog whistle (from Obama of all people) that the Press cannot be trusted, and to those in the middle it was a poor defense of a well-known subject. It strung together four years of failure in the Middle East starting with apologizing for America and ending with riots at our embassies throughout the Muslim regions.

    A bit of irony; Obama said very forcefully that Iran will not have nuclear weapons while he’s president. I don’t think anyone is predicting a nuclear Iran in three months.

    I’m lousy at predicting the future, but Obama hasn’t given any reason to voters for another term; his argument is that we’re “starting” to change the dynamic and focus (like a laser, Mr. President?) on the economy and our domestic tranquility. After four years now is a helluva time to start. This election should be a blowout of epic proportions; at the very minimum a 330-208 electoral win for Romney. But, there’s no predicting the behavior of those that think Obamaphones and food stamps are a Right guaranteed in the Living Constitution.

  16. GMB October 23, 2012 / 11:38 am

    Now that Mitt is leading in almost all the national polls where are our resident libs? Any of you care to explain why the polls were just great when barky was ahead but now they are “unreliable”

    Casper, care to take a shot at it? Your absence has been noted and is very “unexpected”

    LOLzer 😛

  17. The Return of Rathaven October 23, 2012 / 12:31 pm

    A Tourist walked into a Chinese curio shop in San Francisco . While looking around at the exotic merchandise, he noticed a very lifelike, life-sized, bronze statue of a rat. It had no price tag, but was so incredibly striking the tourist decided he must have it. He took it to the old shop owner and asked, “How much for the bronze rat ?”

    “Ahhh, you have chosen wisely! It is $12 for the rat and $100 for the story,” said the wise old Chinaman.

    The tourist quickly pulled out twelve dollars. “I’ll just take the rat, you can keep the story”.
    As he walked down the street carrying his bronze rat, the tourist noticed that a few real rats had crawled out of the alleys and sewers and had begun following him down the street. This was a bit disconcerting so he began walking faster.

    A couple blocks later he looked behind him and saw to his horror the herd of rats behind him had grown to hundreds, and they began squealing.

    Sweating now, the tourist began to trot toward San Francisco Bay.

    Again, after a couple blocks, he looked around only to discover that the rats now numbered in the MILLIONS, and were squealing and coming toward him faster and faster.
    Terrified, he ran to the edge of the Bay and threw the bronze rat as far as he could into the Bay.

    Amazingly, the millions of rats all jumped into the Bay after the bronze rat and were all drowned.

    The man walked back to the curio shop in Chinatown .

    “Ahhh,” said the owner, “You come back for story ?”

    “No sir,” said the man, “I came back to see if you have a bronze Democrat.”

    • Amazona October 23, 2012 / 4:21 pm

      OK,now this is really getting weird.

      I was just driving home thinking about this joke, which in the version I heard was a brass rat sold at an antique store in London, with the rat thrown into the Thames, and mentally working on editing it so it was in the U.S.and would fit as a comment and changing the lawyer to a Liberal.

      And the first thing I see when I log on is………………

      Kinda cool…..

      • Count d'Haricots (@Count_dHaricots) October 23, 2012 / 5:33 pm

        Back to the debate; I heard on the radio this morning this observation; Romney turned the debate back to the economy as often as he could. Obama tried to turn the debate to … education and teachers(?) and just how important a good education is to world security (??)

        I had no idea we beat the Japanese in WWII because of smaller class size.

  18. Retired Spook October 23, 2012 / 7:39 pm

    The Obama lies in the debate just keep coming. He said sequestration wasn’t his idea — it originated in Congress. Not true. It may not have been his personal idea, but it originated in the White House. I’ll bet Team Obama had no idea they would be providing so much ad material (for free) for Romney going into the last 2 weeks.

  19. irisspirit October 24, 2012 / 4:32 pm

    Women still earn less than men for the same work.

    http://www.aauw.org/GraduatetoaPayGap/upload/AAUWGraduatingtoaPayGapReport.pdf

    And yes, women are concerned that a Romney administration would weaken women’s rights. I know many Conservatives have had the silly idea that Obama would take away their guns – which you want to talk about silly concerns – there is a conversation topic for you. Also, talk of concentration camps in N. Dakota, turning the US into a Muslim country , having his own militia to come and get you in the middle of the night – just a few of the really stupid things said by Conservatives for the past four years. But we women should not be the least concerned with the rights we have obtained through hard work and sacrifice of our mothers and grandmothers over the past 100 years. What a pathetic, brainless population the GOP has attracted! Hows that Tea Party mentality working for you? You have brought the most rabid group of people into the light of day that are filled with hate and a conspiracy around every corner. They are basically either mentally deranged or just plain dangerous. They have done more harm to this country than Obama ever could even if he had all the powers you seem to think he has.

    • Count d'Haricots (@Count_dHaricots) October 24, 2012 / 7:59 pm

      Quoting Union Propaganda again I see, the American Association of University Women has been offering this pap for years packaged in different forms with very un-academic research.

      The wage gap statistic, however, doesn’t compare two similarly situated co-workers of different sexes, working in the same industry, performing the same work, for the same number of hours a day. It merely reflects the median earnings of all men and women classified as full-time workers.

      In other words, whiny women crap.

      Are woman academics paid less than their male counterparts? A Resounding NO! Why isn’t that in the “study”? Because it’s Union Crap that only small minds latch on to, like Velma and other losers eager for someone to blame for their failures.

    • dbschmidt October 24, 2012 / 8:09 pm

      At this point I am not sure who you are or represent, nor how stupid you really are but please tell me when you went through the negotiation for employment (you know—bargaining with the ultra-rich bastards) that they handed you a paper with two pay-scales? You know, one for women and one for men.

      Everyone I have hired was not gender-specific but based on knowledge and experience to include how well they would fit my requirements. Male, Female, Three-armed Klingon (with proper papers) from outer space did not matter as everyone was paid within the range and only based on how well they would become an asset.

      More you made me was a direct representation of how well I paid you—nothing based on “lady parts.” Maybe you should bring your views into this century.

      There are always two options (if not more) in every contract–accept or decline–plus the ability to negotiate.

    • tiredoflibbs October 25, 2012 / 5:59 am

      velma: “Women still earn less than men for the same work.”

      Perhaps you should complain directly to the Democrats and the White House!!!!! Their female staffers and administrators earn less than their male counterparts. I love the way they ACCUSE Romney of doing WHAT THEY ACTUALLY DO!

      But I don’t expect a mindless drone such as yourself to know this. You just regurgitate the dumbed down party line like a good little unthinking drone.

      You are the one who is very unhappy and pathetic. Anyone would expect the opposite given the nanny in White House, who promises to take care of you so you won’t have to worry your pointy little head about anything!

      But sadly, you are just angry and miserable because your pResident is the hypocrite and a failure to did not expect him to be. The Democrats talk a good talk, but when it comes to actions they fail – just like the inequality of their women staff in their salaries compared to men.

      Do you enjoy being a mindless tool for their foolishness and hypocrisy?

      You don’t even know it. Pathetic.

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