Welfare Must End

Two things about welfare – first off, a Cato study which shows that in some States you can “earn” more being on welfare than by working a full time, minimum wage job.  Then a sensible, liberal critique of Cato pointing out that if Cato gets its way, low wage jobs will go to hordes of immigrants, thus depressing wages even more, in turn making welfare even more appealing.  The sensible liberal – Mickey Kaus – also points out that a huge problem of getting people to get off welfare and start working is that, well, working requires work.  A lot of our senseless liberals will claim that no one wants to be on welfare – which is complete twaddle because for a lot of people it makes no sense to bust one’s hump working when you can get as much, or a little more, by doing nothing…and even if you get a little less, there’s still the compensating factor of not having to get up in the morning and go to work.  I think I can speak for everyone when I say that even those of us who wouldn’t dream of using welfare except in a crisis still wake up, from time to time, and say “good grief; do I really have to go to work today?”.  Work isn’t always fun – which is why its called work, rather than play.

The risk we have is that we’re building up a dependent class which has been on welfare so long that they lose all inclination to work and start to build up a sense of entitlement to welfare.  A nation can carry on with 10% of the population freeloading, but once you start towards 20 and 30% or more doing it, collapse stares you in the face…and I’m talking civil war, end of the country sort of collapse…because those who do work will increasingly resent having to support those who don’t.  We’re at that point – and its time to get off the welfare treadmill to destruction.

The receipt of any aid for a working-age, physically fit person must be dependent upon working, period.  We can make it so that for the first month after losing the job or suffering other catastrophic financial loss is covered without having to put back in, but once we get past that first month, the recipient better have a job, or that person will have to be put to work on something in order go give back for what is obtained.  I don’t care if its picking up trash around the city or scrubbing graffiti off of walls – something must be done by every able-bodied person.  Not full time – we do want them to have the time to seek education, training and new employment – but at least 15-20 hours a week doing the grunt work of society in return for benefits.  This is only fair; those who are paying the welfare bills will see that work is being doing and those who are getting the benefits will have the sense of pride which comes with contributing to the overall benefit of society. And those who have to do such work will have a vested interest in getting off such work and in to something which works out better in the long run.  We make a deal – if you are in a financial crisis we’ll see to it you don’t starve, you keep a roof over your head, you are clothed and have essential medical care; you’re job is to stop needing such assistance as soon as possible or, lacking that, putting your back in to it a bit for what we give.

And just in case any of you liberals out there think I’m being un-Christian, I direct your attention to 2 Thessalonians 3:10:

In fact, when we were with you, we instructed you that if anyone was unwilling to work, neither should that one eat.

Remember, it is “unwilling” to work – not “can’t find a job”; not “I’m disabled”.  You only get stuck in the “neither should that one eat”  if you can work and refuse to work.  The basic concept here it to return to the truth of the matter:  living requires working.  No one gets a free ride.

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40 thoughts on “Welfare Must End

  1. neocon01 August 21, 2013 / 3:32 pm

    cloward – piven,& communism 101
    lets let in 30-50 million more non english speaking peasants, scrap all voter ID so we can cheat dramatically in the inner citys, screw big business, and squeeze the life out of the producing 53% …..great donk paln…..Boula……. Cuba North.

    • neocon01 August 21, 2013 / 3:40 pm

      We make a deal

      ALL PAY TAXES, ALL PAY the SAME RATE,…national sales tax.
      THEN lets (maybe) talk about some form of “assistance” ,
      NOT school lunch, NOT cell phones, NOT beer, NOT cigarettes, NOT cc, ,NOT for color TV’s NOT for years let alone generations of OPM, NOT for ILLEGALS, NOT for more than one kid, NOT for abortions, ….get the point??

  2. Norma Stitz August 21, 2013 / 3:34 pm

    This harks back to the discussion on minimum wage last week.

    Welfare rates are set based on statistics of what is needed to minimally subsist. Just enough for the essentials like fod, rent, Lotto tixs and 40s.

    Minimum wage is set arbitrarily, years ago based on prevailing political winds.

    Of course welfare pays better than minimum wage. So then, what’s the choice? Work hard and starve or stay on welfare and win the Powerball?

    • Amazona August 21, 2013 / 5:45 pm

      Yeah, Norm, those are the two choices, all right. So clever of you to figure that out.

      Too bad it doesn’t take into consideration hundreds of millions who have figured out how to make more than minimum wage. I haven’t made minimum wage since I was in high school, and neither has anyone I know. I got so fed up with slackers who wanted to work on a ranch as long as it did not involve actual WORK that I started out with minimum wage and then within a week or so I either doubled it or canned the slackers. If you can’t develop your skills and don’t have a decent work ethic you are not worth more than MW but that doesn’t mean I should have to support you. How about a different choice for the able-bodied, such as minimum wage or being hungry? True, it does not involve the beloved OPM that the Left finds such an essential component of every policy, but then lazy layabout moochers did nothing to contribute to making this country great.

      They ARE doing a lot to tear it down, though.

    • J. R. Babcock (@JRBabcock) August 22, 2013 / 7:46 am

      Of course the notion of the unconstitutionality of the federal government mandating the payment of a living wage just never crossed Meursault’s mind. And actually, many Americans are getting a living wage without even having to work at all, and the government even recruits people into such a scheme.

      • Amazona August 23, 2013 / 8:52 am

        I think it safe to say that nothing about the Constitution has ever “crossed Meursault’s mind” other than to dismiss it as an archaic historical novelty with no relevance to today’s world and with no legal authority.

    • J. R. Babcock (@JRBabcock) August 22, 2013 / 8:42 am

      Let’s take this “living wage” concept a step farther, Merusault. How exactly does it work? What’s the formula for a “living wage”? Do you pay someone who has no marketable skills a living wage? What if you hire someone, pay them a “living wage”, and they can’t perform even the simplest aspects of the job? Can you fire them? I’m having a hard time understanding how the living wage concept is workable in a capitalist society. Can you elaborate?

      • dbschmidt August 23, 2013 / 3:02 am

        Well, being an Evil Capitalist Pig, I would invite all of those who wanted a “living wage” in lieu of their current pay scale to a meeting. Let’s say 50 employees at a fast food joint. I would do the math which reveals that 1/3 would have to be “let go” to cover costs and then let them fight it out about who stays and goes.

        Actually, I would make the final decisions but wouldn’t it be fun to watch them try to explain why one deserved mo’ money while sending another out to the unemployment line? Then again, unemployment is a well paid position these days.

      • M. Noonan August 23, 2013 / 1:08 pm

        DB,

        I understand the socialist attitude about a “living wage”, but the fact of the matter is that “living wage” in our socialists mind means “living well no matter what work you’re doing”. As a Distributist, I stick to basics – to be sure, it is unjust for anyone to be paid a wage which is insufficient, for the person, living frugally, to have food, clothing, housing and basic medical care. But “living frugally” is the key here. It is absurd that our poor have ObamaPhones and televisions and cable TV and other such nonsense…and now there is a proposal to provide everyone with a “right” to surf the web! I got in to a Twitter argument a few months back on the ObamaCare contraception mandate where my liberal opponent was furious with me for not being willing to pay for birth control…I pointed out that birth control is pretty cheap and, at any rate, if you’re living in grinding poverty maybe sexual activity should be deferred to better times. That just infuriated the liberal more – I was denying, as it were, the poor the right to have sex!

        We’ve lost sight of what charity really is – we’ve also completely lost sight of the fact that love of neighbor is not a mushy-minded command to put up with whatever our neighbor is doing. To be sure, patience and kindness are major parts of how we should deal with our neighbors…but, eventually, our neighbor does have to get off his duff, if at all possible, and contribute.

      • dbschmidt August 23, 2013 / 9:55 pm

        Mark,

        Quite often I guess I am meaner than I need to be; however, I see no area of the Constitution that mandates Federal intervention into what should be a community effort. When I was a child, and we were barely making it–my Mom had us deliver meals to our neighbors who had it worse. That is charity and I continue that today. Government redistributed anything I make is not.

        This goes to every argument that “Liberals” have–everything is a “right.” What right do they have to take a part of another citizen’ livelyhood? Do I have a “right” to make you write for me? If so–for how long? Do I have a right to make a doctor care for me? If so, for how long? 5 mins, and hour, a week? I do have a right to engage in commerce with another person but I feel I have no right to demand, or in the words of our current President–mandate it.

        The way of every Constitutionalist is the problems facing the nation should be solved at the lowest level possible. Family, Neighbors, Community, City, State and very few duties should every reach Federal level. I still love to educate folks in everything (not much) I know but give my time freely to schools and others in several areas. Just the way I was brought up.

      • M. Noonan August 24, 2013 / 1:36 am

        DB,

        Well, having local control is in accordance with Catholic teaching on Subsidiarity – all decisions, as far as possible, should be made by the local people. The federal government, if it is to have a role, must only be when the local people can’t carry out the necessary functions. So, a rich area of the country would take care of itself, a poorer area does have a moral claim upon the nation, as a whole, to make up any dearth of resources. As far as taking from Peter to give to Paul – that is a moral issue of great import, but a federal government reduced to its proper number and functions would be running such a high surplus, even at a lower rate of taxation, that I don’t think the “taking” issue would be a large issue.

  3. Norma Stitz August 21, 2013 / 7:46 pm

    I agree they are slackers and azy and it is wrong they remain on welfare. This incentive to stay on welfare – that welfare pays more than minimum wage – can be removed by making minimum wage a number at least comparable to welfare income.

    I think it would be cool if current welfare recipients that get a job continue receiving welfare for a year. It gives people exiting welfare a cushion period to get their chaotic house in order, maybe even acquire some savings, which means a greater likelihood they stay off welfare for good.

    • Cluster August 21, 2013 / 8:08 pm

      Could I get welfare for a year too? It would help me build up some savings, and probably prevent me from needing welfare again? How about it?

      • Norma Stitz August 21, 2013 / 9:19 pm

        If you are currently on welfare and can show proof-of-(new)-employment, sure.

        Look, the handout of welfare is happening and will continue. If allowing the handout to continue one extra year to help ensure it stops altogether seems a worthy investment.

        Sure, there will still be recidivism and fraud, that will always happen. But I’d hope adding that one-year cushion might make some who might otherwise not, venture into the working world. And maybe save some who earnestly try from failing that transition.

  4. bardolf2 August 21, 2013 / 9:25 pm

    “In fact, when we were with you, we instructed you that if anyone was unwilling to work, neither should that one eat.” 2 Thessalonians 3:10:

    Be careful. By work Paul meant real work (after all he physically built tents so that he could preach, he didn’t build houses with monies raised from preaching) not pushing pieces of paper to make someone richer. He meant actually make/mine/build/writer computer code type of work. If one continues to the 3:11 and beyond what Paul is most worried about is the busybodies who don’t do any real work but pretend to be contributing, think university administrators and the like.

    • Amazona August 21, 2013 / 11:54 pm

      Eeeeeeuwwww, Count—poor dolf is sure sniping at you, isn’t he? Poor little fella—here he is, all mathy and Fulbright Scholarshippy and all, and you having a better job and making more money and not being devoured by petty envy on top of it all! Evidently that stings.

      Guess that average sized fish in a medium sized pond thing isn’t enough to vanquish that green-eyed monster, eh? Don’t get off into a Coolest Car showdown or his claws will really come out.

      Sssssst!

      • bardolf2 August 22, 2013 / 9:19 am

        Amazona

        The Count is Jewish and not a university administrator. I was directing my remarks at Mark firstly, who is Christian, referenced the New Testament and by his own admission pushes paper. Secondly, I included a self-reference since I work at a university and have a modicum of administrative responsibilities. I didn’t expect you to understand simple biblical exegesis. You’re more the inner-light, self-guided, learn about God by looking out over the ranch kinda gal. The one who by simply knowing a few priests allows herself to stick to the Twilight series and team Edward instead of reading scriptures.

        As for you ‘catty’ nonsense, well classic Amazona. The whole mean girls schtick might have been funny once but as we say in Italian “un bel gioco dura poco” . The cheap homophobic allusion to any man who wouldn’t engage you doesn’t even make Neo chuckle. He’ll force a laugh and play along because he’s been taught to be polite, smile and nod when mema is off her meds, but he’s kind of creeped out too.

      • M. Noonan August 22, 2013 / 11:49 am

        Bardolf,

        What I wonder is why bring me, personally, in to it? Do I bring you in to it personally? I’m analyzing in my mind why there seems to be this desire to bring me in to conversation when I wasn’t talking about myself…so far, I can only figure that it is a desire to attack me rather than address what I bring up…

      • Amazona August 22, 2013 / 10:11 am

        ” You’re more the inner-light, self-guided, learn about God by looking out over the ranch kinda gal. The one who by simply knowing a few priests allows herself to stick to the Twilight series and team Edward instead of reading scriptures. ”

        You seem to be quite impressed with what you are told by those voices in your head. Of course, there are the facts that I have identified myself as Catholic, have otherwise never even hinted at any other religious or spiritual belief or practice, and that I have never even read a line of the “Twilight series” and have to take the word of someone obviously far more intimate with the whole phenomenon regarding the existence of a “team Edward” to know there is such a thing.

        Though, given the evidence of your invention of whatever you think might be insulting, there might not be. And if those voices tell you that neo would be “creeped out” by what you identify as a “homophobic allusion” (gay cats?) well, that alone ought to tip you off that they are simply nuts.

        I see you slipped in some of your ageist bigotry, too. And after all of this, you still whine about being called catty. At the risk of being called “homophobic” again, I suggest that you man up, and accept being called on your snottiness, instead of making inane excuses and trying to cloud the issue by hurling a bunch of irrelevant bigoted wannabe insults.

        Nice try at a save, now claiming that you were talking about yourself when you sniped at “university administrators”. Too bad for you that this blog is rife with your petty sniping at the Count, his work, etc. And what does being Jewish have to do with anything?

        It’s pretty obvious that the comment about being off one’s meds is actually an inadvertent reflection upon your own condition, given your odd rambling and juxtaposition of so many fantasies, irrelevancies and hostilities. Really, dolf, get a grip.

        Do it in Italian if your ego demands it, but really, guy, work on it.

        And remember, less is more. Now that you have so firmly established an identity on this blog, you don’t need to keep reinforcing it.

      • Amazona August 22, 2013 / 10:18 am

        Oh, I see. The placing of your little whine made me think you found my “catty” comment to be a “homophobic allusion”. But it was really that you read “homophobic” in what was meant as “effete metrosexual pseudo-intellectual snob”.

        But I stand by my claim that while coy snideness may be more common in certain circles, it is less so in the West. I might not have noticed a chardonnay-drinking beret-wearing Birkenstock-shod “academic” in Berkeley/Boulder/San Francisco/Manhattan engaging in fey cattiness, but it stands out more when it comes from guys in Wyoming or New Mexico.

        Read into that whatever you like, based upon your own sensitivities and defensiveness.

      • bardolf2 August 22, 2013 / 3:34 pm

        “And just in case any of you liberals out there think I’m being un-Christian, I direct your attention to 2 Thessalonians 3:10:” – Mark

        “What I wonder is why bring me, personally, in to it? “- Mark

        I would say you brought yourself into it. You’ve taken a political position, getting rid of welfare, which may or may not be useful in the world and claimed scriptural support. But if you had read through the entirety of Thessalonians, not just grabbing a verse, you would have understood that the epistle has nothing to do with welfare in 2013.

        You’ve set yourself apart as superior to those imaginary do nothings who are living it up. You’re somehow better than the people who should be “putting your back in to it a bit for what we give.” I’ve merely pointed out that people who have a contempt for those who don’t put there back into something while claiming they are working hard, making people rich by shuffling papers would dumbfound St. Paul.

        If you believe me to be Christian as I claim, and also you believe me to be acting in an un-Christian manner then you have a duty to tell me. I believe you’ve cheapened an epistle by trying to use it to justify a political position on which it doesn’t apply and so am showing Christian love.

        For what purpose have you used the word of God? To win an argument against a stupid liberal.

      • M. Noonan August 23, 2013 / 2:42 am

        Bardolf,

        There you go, being personal – where in anything I have written is there even a hint of contempt for the poor? For goodness sakes, when my father died I went through his papers and found, in his wallet, his welfare card from the early 70’s – he was unemployed for a while and had six kids to feed. I never got to ask him why he kept that card as I only found it after his death, but I suspect he kept it as a reminder of poverty. Rest assured, I have no contempt for the poor – I’ve been the poor and know what it is like. But mercy isn’t a mushy thing, and neither is love – those who have the most contempt for the poor are those who hook them on the dole for life…feeding them crumbs from the master’s table in return for their quiet acceptance of the Ruling Class. I want even the poorest among us to have the dignity of knowing that their daily bread comes to them by their own efforts. Earned food is the best food.

        You go about insulting me rather than addressing the actual issue I bring up – the growing underclass which has been on the dole so long that they are losing the desire to work, the desire to advance, the desire to be independent, property-owning citizens. Deal with that. Answer that. How do you propose to fix that problem? If you can tear yourself away for five minutes from insulting me, maybe we can all hear your plans?

      • Count d'Haricots (@Count_dHaricots) August 22, 2013 / 4:42 pm

        I believe you’ve cheapened an epistle by trying to use it to justify a political position on which it doesn’t apply and so am showing Christian love.” He wrote with no hint of irony …

        Help me here Amazona, didn’t ‘dolf bring up Paul’s admonition about following false teachers (like ‘dolf) to make a political point about judging the quality and equity of one’s “work”?

        Yeah, I though so.

        And that’s an odd definition of “Christian Charity” to imply that the labors of a specific University Administrator are not of value to Our Lord because he’s GASP JEWISH!

        So The Lord’s opinion doesn’t matter to Jews or Jews don’t matter to The Lord?

    • Amazona August 22, 2013 / 12:06 am

      Looking at tonight’s posts from you and casper, I think it is time the two of you get together to share a nice saucer of milk. I have never seen men so catty. Any time I hear women being accused of cattiness, all I will have to do is refer the speaker to you two. I might expect this level of manliness from someone in San Francisco, but from New Mexico and Wyoming?! Tsk tsk….

    • Count d'Haricots (@Count_dHaricots) August 22, 2013 / 2:23 pm

      Amazona,

      Why would you think tortuous allusion from ‘dolf is “sniping”? No, ‘dolf is making the larger point that people who don’t contribute through “real” work because they push paper around to make other people rich .. you know ~ university administrators like Mark (?).

      It’s that kind of insightful analysis and critical thinking skills that allow people like ‘dolf to lecture us on the equity of our labor; I think Paul had something to say on that as well; “Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise.”

      Paul did go on to explain that it is not up to the ‘dolfs of the world to judge my labors; “For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord. 5 Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God.” According to Paul; Only Jesus will expose the false teachers among us.

      ‘dolf must have been out taking a wizz during that sermon.

      • M. Noonan August 22, 2013 / 2:48 pm

        Additionally, I’m not arguing with anyone who does whatever these days – I desire a better system where more people will not only be involved in making, mining and growing things, but will own their own means of production either individually or in free cooperation with other people. The world is at it is – I inherited a great deal. Had I to do things over again, I would have made several crucial decisions differently – but that is because I now have a bit more wisdom than I did when I was, say 25. Essentially, people are blaming me for being foolish when I was younger. Ok. And you’re point is?

        While I always gravitated towards the conservative side (liberalism’s anti-intellectualism and unwillingness to learn from experience always repelled me), it has really only been over the last dozen years that I have made any sort of effort to scrape off the Progressive nonsense which has stuck to almost all of us in one degree or another. For more than a century we’ve been collectively sold a load of bull crap – those on the right have been better able to deflect it but only a conscious effort – and a reliance on God – can really shake a person from most of it.

        I’m not looking at myself so much these days but at the rising generation – what is to become of them? Can they really live in a society where a majority of children are born out of wedlock, where abortion and birth control are the norm, where manufacturing and farming are either all done by foreigners or done by imported drudges, where debt continues to pile upon debt, where government becomes simultaneously more powerful and more incompetent? I don’t think they can. I think a smash-up is coming. I’m thinking of ways to make the smash-up a transition to a new society which will be based upon eternal truths…to a time when great-grandchildren of today will look back and shake their heads at someone like me…how could he have been such an idiot as to fall for such twaddle in to his late 40’s? Why did it take so long for him to wake up from the daze? But, at least he did…

      • bardolf2 August 22, 2013 / 3:14 pm

        Count gives another fine example of why people think the bible can say anything. It can’t.

        The Count has butchered scriptures to prove a point. His has cut out the core 1 Corinthians 3:23 “and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God” as well as the ending 1 Corinthians 4:9 “For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like men condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men.”

        With the key passages removed, the Count can shape some biblical words to meet his goal.

        Don’t you get? The Wisdom referred to in the passage “Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise.” is Christ. Wisdom=Christ. What was most foolish, according to traditions at the time and today, was to think that the Christ= the Anointed King of Israel=the Messiah wasalso the man Jesus, crucified by the Romans. How foolish to believe that God entering into our world would be put up on a cross.

        The other passage ” “For I am conscious of nothing …” refers to Paul’s desire to preach a pure gospel as an apostle. There was a big confusion about which preacher to follow in Paul’s time, which one had the true message, especially with so many false prophets among the early church, saying things like circumcision was necessary for the gentiles. The passage says nothing about people who spread false teachings like Obamacare. The Count’s teachings on the perils of Keynesian economics is not the true/false preaching that concerned Paul.

      • Amazona August 22, 2013 / 4:08 pm

        Count, remember, this is dolf. He makes a lot of noise but says very little. Remember, this is the guy who, when I used a bit of British slang in a comment, said I had been “claiming to be a British citizen”. By this bizarre standard, he just claimed to be Italian.

        But then, that’s just dolf. He is one of those who will try to shift a dialogue into an arena where he can posture as having some knowledge, and after that his posts remind one of being nibbled to death by ducks.

        Clearly HIS “contribution to society” doesn’t keep him nearly busy enough. But he is a querulous little critter, ain’t he?

      • Count d'Haricots (@Count_dHaricots) August 22, 2013 / 4:44 pm

        Hey ‘dolf, anything to take the focus off your prideful statements and mis-characterization of the Scriptures eh?

        So … just to be clear, Paul valued work, Paul wanted to preach as an Apostle, Apostles are sent by Jesus, Apostles and those they train are the only ones to be trusted with explaining the Lord’s Mysteries … and ‘dolf pontificates that my Jesus won’t accept my labors as real work?

      • bardolf2 August 22, 2013 / 5:00 pm

        Count

        When I make prideful statements, those are sins, they are forgiven because I don’t trust in my own wisdom. I trust in my foolishness.

        ” .. those they train are the only ones to be trusted with explaining the Lord’s Mysteries” is clearly wrong as it makes necessary additional intercessor between God and man. Christ the risen Lord is the only intercessor and His life is laid out in the Gospels. There are some deep mysteries to be sure, what exactly will heaven be like etc. There are also things clear as day, like the command over and over again to help the poor, to have compassion on the poor. The command is also clear as day not meant to be the liberal ‘give them some tax dollars as charity’ as this involves nothing of physical sacrifice.

        As for your labor’s being of value you know the answer by reading Isaiah 64:6.

      • Count d'Haricots (@Count_dHaricots) August 22, 2013 / 5:18 pm

        …those are sins, they are forgiven because I don’t trust in my own wisdom. I trust in my foolishness.” How convenient for you.

        So, when I thrash you about the head and shoulders, bringing great damage and wrath upon your person, I can console myself that to do harm to another is a sin and being foolish I’ll be forgiven?

        You’re right about one thing; that’s a fool’s creed.

      • Count d'Haricots (@Count_dHaricots) August 22, 2013 / 5:45 pm

        4:1 “Let a man regard us in this manner, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. ” is clearly wrong ???? The Apostles and those they confirm are not the stewards of the mysteries of G-d????

        Get your money back from that Bible Study in Five Easy Lessons course you ordered from Father Woody’s Cut-Rate Internet School of Theology. You’ve lost all credibility here.

        Now excuse me while I say my prayer to the necessary additional intercessor between God and man, the Blessed Virgin Mary.

      • bardolf2 August 22, 2013 / 8:10 pm

        Count

        You don’t have to keep using Google to find out what is in the bible. You can read it. Fortunately for me, I don’t need to be clever or wise to understand God’s ways, otherwise I’d be in trouble. Your ‘cheap grace’ creed was answered by Paul.

        “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?” Romans 6:1

        Chortling about 5 easy lessons bible studies is a quite funny, thanks for the laugh. Since nobody on B4V outside Jeremiah seems to regularly crack open the New Testament I don’t know whose credibility I should be seeking. Again, I don’t need to be credible because Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, the Anointed one, the King of the Jews and he does all things.

        One of my 5 easy lessons included Matthew 21:12 which is the story of Jesus cleansing the temple of money changers. That must not be the most popular among accountants or those who work at financial institutions. The whole idea of making people rich without actually physically making something doesn’t quite play out well as you might imagine in incarnational theology. You should stick to your gnostic Jesus who’s merely a wise teacher.

      • Amazona August 23, 2013 / 8:44 am

        Count, as I said, that is just dolf dolfing. We see it all the time. Something tweaks a nerve—-a coed doesn’t smile at him, no one sits with him in the faculty lounge, whatever—-and he scurries over here to strut and lecture and insult, a place where for some reason he thinks his posturing is impressive—-an unsupported belief which does nothing to add to his delusions of adequacy.

        So he lurches in here tossing out various snipes, illustrating ageist bigotry, religious bigotry, and other various mental oddities. So he reads Scripture a lot. He himself is proof that this is neither proof of intellect nor an indication of spiritual superiority, but for some reason this go-round he is fixated on a contest of “who knows God better”. I’m dismissed because of a wholly invented hippie-dippy-trippy Earth Mother complex, you because you are allegedly Jewish as well as an adherent to an “incarnational theology” and Mark because he works for a bank, so even in his own disordered mind there is the realization that he has to start such an invented contest by stacking the deck, in a truly Obama-like strategy of simply removing competition.

        As I have said, he is an odd and querulous little duck, but quite eager to strut those oddities here. We usually respond when he manages to sound at least a little rational, but after a couple of forays off into the mental weeds we just ignore him.

      • Count d'Haricots (@Count_dHaricots) August 27, 2013 / 11:19 am

        I’m reminded of a line in A Fish called Wanda
        “Apes don’t read philosophy.
        Yes they do, Otto. They just don’t understand it. ”

        Yet another misreading of the Bible involves the money changers; I don’t know what they had to do with accountants because their function was to travel far and deal with travelers and merchants to find coins without graven images and unblemished animals since these were rare commodities in Judea and the only ones that could be taken into the Temple as offerings. since they could not bring the exchanged coins into the Temple, & since they weren’t in the Temple they couldn’t be cleansed from the Temple. They were respected members of the community as they offered a service and a product unavailable to the common parishioners.

        And, they weren’t required to make the animals or the coins.

        Interesting he reveals I’m a Jew, then admonishes me for not “reading the New Testament” with some regularity.

        Hmmm. I would venture a guess that a rabbi that holds himself above his students because they don’t “crack” the Bible to his satisfaction is a poor teacher indeed; one might say a false teacher.

        Why does rabbi choose not answer the questions posed and change to answers of questions not asked?

        /sarc .הִנֵּה מַה-טּוֹב, וּמַה-נָּעִים– שֶׁבֶת אַחִים גַּם-יָחַד

  5. neocon01 August 22, 2013 / 3:15 pm

    when you have several people on a ladder the only way for the one on the bottom to get higher is for everyone above you to move up,,, and you are STILL on the lowest rung

    stupid insane argument.

  6. dbschmidt August 23, 2013 / 2:47 am

    I have been thinking all day about whether or not to add my $0.02 cents (before taxes) into this discussion. Well, here at approx. 1:30 AM EST after responding to another possible job offering—I thought I might be able to add a little something to the conversation.

    It is all a mindset
    Dependency versus Self-Reliance.

    A little background, in my case, might help shed some light onto my position. As of this morning I have been unemployed for 2 years and 3 days. The job of finding a job is a brutal one and in particular mine. I do not blame anyone in particular but these economic times make my placement a square peg for a round hole.

    At 52 years old, I have the ageists who wonder how long I will work. With a Master’s degree and two Bachelors’, I have those who wonder if I am over-qualified. The supposed lowly jobs that somehow they believe are beneath me will not hire me. Personally, I have never had a job beneath me unless you want to make a pun about when I was a “honey dipper.” I am in the process of certification (money stream) in order to prove that I know what I have been doing for 30+ years. Neo would understand this as to why the Marines never liked giving someone more than a 96 hour pass—you would have to retrain them.

    There are three things I know well which are cars (owned 20 and worked on 19), millwork including carpentry, and IT (Information Technology) starting when it was EDP. I have applied at everything I know. Home Depot / Lowes, AutoZone, and several positions welding (Gas, Stick and Mig) but they all worry that I will flee back to IT when the current changes. IT says that I no longer possess the skillset because I have been away too long—hence the certifications.

    Anyway, finding a job is a job and I continue. Taking welfare is a way of life for many in this community which I see on a daily basis. I have never taken SNAP or WIC because of the way I was brought up. Even though my mother (after my Dad died) and myself would have been eligible—it was never a consideration. Out of the 2 years plus—1 ½ years was due to surgery and recovery which I had planned and saved for. The rest, no matter how brutal, is something I must adapt to. I am six months (on the outside) from selling my house and finding a new means from there; however, I am planning for that rather than cry how the “man oppressed me.”

    The government (both sides) has removed the stigma of receiving Food Stamps and other programs to the point of acceptability. As I churn through my retirement savings—I see plenty of folks at the grocery store, driving their Escalades, using their SNAP / WIC cards to put on a nice rib fest for the holidays while an honest person works at finding work.

  7. Norma Stitz August 23, 2013 / 11:28 am

    fwiw, I’m not advocating an increase in minimum wage and a grace period exiting welfare for moral reasons (aka, “a just nation must pay a living wage”). That is pure crapola, pardon my Swahili.

    I think it may move more people off welfare than is currently happening.

    Whether one is a slacker loving the gub’ment cheese or a diligent, virtuous worker down on their luck, it is very, very difficult to get off welfare.

    Those who decry welfare creating a dependent class are absolutely right, but one cannot expect those with dependencies to simply stop. Few alcoholics/junkies successfully end their dependencies cold turkey. Even the majority of those in 12-step programs fail to break free.

    A 12-step (as it were) program to get off welfare – be it a grace period, making minimum wage competitive with welfare, and other, better ideas – is what is needed.

    And like addiction 12-step programs, there would be a lot of issues and scamming and recidivism, but net-net, more folks may drop from the welfare rolls than would otherwise happen.

    • M. Noonan August 23, 2013 / 1:01 pm

      Norma,

      No, I’m sure that if we require people on welfare to show up at City Hall for 15-20 hours a week to pick up trash and scrub graffiti people will be properly motivated to find something more satisfying to do with their time. Other than genuine drug addicts, the reason people stay on welfare is because it is easier – and in many cases, more profitable – than working. Add an element of work to the welfare and you incentivize getting off welfare.

      I implied it in my post, but I’ll flesh it out a bit – if you don’t have a job, I propose to provide whatever is necessary to ensure your human dignity: sufficient food, clothing, housing and medical care. I won’t necessarily give it in cash (to me, food aid should be dispensed directly as food to the poor – not as EBT cards; SNAP should pay for food banks to stay fully stocked and the poor can pay a weekly visit to the food bank and be dispensed what is necessary for however many people live in the welfare home), but everyone can rest assured that they will not be thrown to the wolves…unless they are physically fit and UNWILLING to work.

    • Amazona August 23, 2013 / 4:07 pm

      The last welfare reform allowed people 2 years, I believe, to get training and education so they could find work. A reasonable deadline like this, and no benefits to people who are able to work, would resolve much of the problem.

      And if someone is physically able to work, but not very employable, then we should be able to find something that is a 40-hour week in exchange for food (and your idea, Mark, about direct food distribution is a good one, and the way it used to be done—we once had neighbors who went through a bad patch and went down every week for a while to collect powdered milk, big blocks of cheese, bags of flour, etc) and enough money to pay basic rent. No booze, no cigs, no tats, no grills, no phones, no TV. I had a friend who was an administrator for the Salvation Army and they employed people with physical and mental handicaps. We once used a cleaning service that employed people who were mentally “challenged” but who could dump trash baskets, mop floors, etc.

      Two years is enough time to get an associate degree, go to a trade school, etc. And I worked while I went to college. Lots of people do, and lots of people work more than one job.

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